Can we talk about bootlegs?

[Renegade Angel]

I know that this is frowned upon on the site but could the moderators please consider changing their minds about discussing the topic.
There are so many good shows out there that a lot of us have that would make good topics such as rare content ect, as long as they arn't being sold or traded here then surley its ok to be discussed?

[Deb]

Seeing as you brought this up i'll add my two cents :D

How come it's ok to post a link to a bootleg video. But not the audio? If that makes any sense :idea::lol:

[LucyK!]

I don't think it's the moderators as such that have a problem, it's the issue of what bootlegs are...

Bootlegs are (as far as I'm aware??) illegally recorded, and I'm not sure there's a way to discuss them without saying "I have..." or "someone gave me..." so even if it's not us making the recordings we - and the site - are putting our names forward as those being involved in having and swapping them, whether that's for money or not...

I guess in terms of MLUKFC it's easier to draw the line completely and have nothing to do with anything relating to bootlegs, but then I'm not a Mod so I don't know! :p

[LucyK!]

How come it's ok to post a link to a bootleg video. But not the audio? If that makes any sense :idea::lol:

And to totally contradict my last post that's a good point - I would never link to a bootleg here but I've posted links to You Tube :?

[Deb]

As have most of us Luce lol. I think the times are changing and all that :-)

[Monstro]

It's almost a case of what's now deemed to be acceptable, some people will jump out of their skin at the mention of a bootleg but in the next breath will ask for links to vids on youtube etc, technically I suppose I've just uploaded two "bootleg" vids to youtube myself. Youtube is now deemed to be acceptable because of it's popularity.

With regards to discussing of bootlegs on this site I can't see it happening, whilst not an "official" Meat site as such I don't think it would give a good impression. A thread about bootlegs only for discussion?, would be an open invitation for trading via pm's.

[LucyK!]

There definitely needs to be a clear rule on this one...as Deb said, we're not allowed to post links to songs recorded at shows yet we all link to concert footage on You Tube...

To me a "bootleg" is anything that's not the offical versions...be it people's recordings, videos on You Tube, the guys outside selling those god awful fake t-shirts...so if one's not allowed surely they're all not allowed?!

[Ageing Bat]

Shamelessly copied from Wikipedia :mrgreen:

A bootleg recording is an audio and/or video recording of a performance that was not officially released by the artist, or under other legal authority. The process of making and distributing such recordings is known as bootlegging. A great many such recordings are simply copied and traded among fans of the artist without financial exchange, but some bootleggers are able to sell these rarities for profit, sometimes by adding professional-quality sound engineering and packaging to the raw material.

Bootlegs can consist of recordings of live performances, or material created in private or professional recording sessions. Changing technologies have had a great impact on the recording, distribution, and varying profitability of the underground industry.

Although distinct from unauthorized copying ("piracy") and counterfeiting, as it involves material which has never been offered for commercial release, bootlegging is considered infringement in many jurisdictions. The copyrights for the song and the right to authorize recordings often reside with the artist, according to several international copyright treaties. The recording, trading and sale of bootlegs continues to thrive, however, even as artists and record companies attempt to provide "authorized" alternatives to satisfy the demand.

Some artists consider any release for which they do not receive royalties to be equivalent to a bootleg, even if it is an officially licensed release. This is often the case with artists whose recordings have either become public domain or whose original agreements did not include reissue royalties (which was a common occurrence before the 1960s).

Many bootlegs consist of private or professional studio recordings distributed without the artist's involvement, including demos, works-in-progress or discarded material. These might be made from private recordings not meant to be widely shared, or from master recordings stolen or copied from an artist's home, a recording studio or the offices of a record label. A number of bootlegs originated with FM radio broadcasts of live or previously-recorded live performances.

However, the most common type is the live bootleg, or audience recording, which is created with sound recording equipment smuggled into a live concert. Many artists and most live venues prohibit this form of recording, but from the 1970s onwards the increased availability of portable technology made such bootlegging increasingly easy, and as this technology has improved so too has the general quality of these recordings.


As far as mlukfc is concerned, I believe the final decision regarding posting etc of unofficial recordings resides with R. .........

[Deb]

I've read that Sarah :D and yes I agree the final decision lies with R. Nobody is saying otherwise. as far as I can see we're all just saying things have changed. Just like hanging used to be acceptable but isn't now :lol: I'm not syaing for one min that we should post boots. Its just odd that it's progressed to being acceptable to post youtube links, but not audio ones :-) And this is coming from someone who hated youtube with a passion only a few months ago :twisted: and is now uploading stuff there left right and centre :?

Deb

[LucyK!]

Surely it's already been stated that You Tube is acceptable because there's things on this site that enable us to post actual You Tube footage rather than just linking to it...

[Deb]

Good point Luce

[Renegade Angel]

Im not asking to post bootlegs or post links to them but maybe just talk about what shows people have ect and what content are on them, I have some great shows that would be great to talk about.
A lot of people are interested in past tours ect and what songs were played on the tours so bootlegs are a good reference to those topics.

I do understand the moderators views on this and i respect any decission on what they deem appropriate to talk about but maybe they could just think about this topic a bit more rather than just ignore the subject.

A lot of bands/artist fan pages talk about the subject, even add links ect and although this maybe wrong, the shows themselves make good conversation.

[LucyK!]

Im not asking to post bootlegs or post links to them but maybe just talk about what shows people have ect and what content are on them, I have some great shows that would be great to talk about.


That's the point there though - in talking about bootlegs and great past shows you're openly saying that you have them, which is why we need to know where the line is in what can and cannot be discussed.

It's possible to discuss what was performed at shows based on the set lists, bootlegs don't necessarily need to be mentioned to do that...

[Renegade Angel]

Im sure a lot of us have them but i see your point, im simply saying that we could use them as a reference, not just the set lists but between song banter, the performance, who played on the gig ect.

[Deb]

I guess that happens a lot already. Using the stuff as reference I mean. Without actually saying thats where the reference is coming from :-) I'm sure all the stuff posted by people isn't just from memory.

[LucyK!]

Absolutely - I don't think there will be a single person here who doesn't own at least one recording that they shouldn't do, whether they recorded it themselves or were given it/bought it from elsewhere...but I guess it's that point about airing dirty laundry in public...just because we have them it might not do the site any good to annouce that fact to the world

[AndyK]

My thoughts :

The current forum stance is that links to, and discussion of, bootlegs is not allowed on here. Strictly speaking youtube videos are bootlegs, but as has been said the popularity of the site has made the video clips that appear there more acceptable. Youtube itself however has been known to remove video clips from its servers in the past. The video clips on youtube are usually relatively low quality because of the equipment they were recorded on, and as such these bootlegs can't be sold for financial gain, which is one of the big arguments as to why they shouldn't be allowed.

However, I can completely understand where the confusion lies, times have indeed changed to some extent, and I know that everyone who reads this thread has bootlegs in their collection and has shared them. The final (and any new) ruling will come from Rainer I'm sure once he sees this thread.

Copyright is a complex legal issue which can have far reaching effects and these effects need to be taken into account with any decision that is made.

[R.]

Current jurisdiction in Germany (that's where the site's hosted) is that forum owners can be made liable for any content that is considered to be illegal that they are aware of. Therefore, once we get knowledge of "questionable content", we remove it, if necessary. Otherwise, we could easily be the target of cease-and-desist letters which usually come along with fees and fines. This actually did happen to another Meat Loaf fansite which was hosted in Germany. Btw, Forum owner includes not only the site operators but also "Admins" and "Moderators".

Youtube & Co. have TOS (Terms Of Service) that do not allow the uploading and sharing of material without the copyright owners agreement. Therefore, everything that is available on Youtube & Co. has to be copyright free (or posted in agreement with the copyright owner). Hence, we do allow the Youtube stuff to a certain extent.

To answer the inital question:
Yes, you can talk about bootlegs - no problem - as long it's just talking about the bootlegged show and nothing more (as in download links, trading lists, samples, ...). But as soon as the begging and asking starts (and it will, trust me), these threads will get locked and/or (partially) deleted.

[Renegade Angel]

Current jurisdiction in Germany (that's where the site's hosted) is that forum owners can be made liable for any content that is considered to be illegal that they are aware of. Therefore, once we get knowledge of "questionable content", we remove it, if necessary. Otherwise, we could easily be the target of cease-and-desist letters which usually come along with fees and fines. This actually did happen to another Meat Loaf fansite which was hosted in Germany. Btw, Forum owner includes not only the site operators but also "Admins" and "Moderators".

Youtube & Co. have TOS (Terms Of Service) that do not allow the uploading and sharing of material without the copyright owners agreement. Therefore, everything that is available on Youtube & Co. has to be copyright free (or posted in agreement with the copyright owner). Hence, we do allow the Youtube stuff to a certain extent.

To answer the inital question:
Yes, you can talk about bootlegs - no problem - as long it's just talking about the bootlegged show and nothing more (as in download links, trading lists, samples, ...). But as soon as the begging and asking starts (and it will, trust me), these threads will get locked and/or (partially) deleted.


Thanks R, this was the response i was hoping for, thank you for taking the time to explain this.

[Meat-of-the-action]

just go on the jim stienman forum and you will find a massive amount of free stuff and they are so nice and welcoming. ;-)

[Pudding]

just go on the jim stienman forum and you will find a massive amount of free stuff and they are so nice and welcoming. ;-)

Not if your name's Susan :shock: or if you're a beggar. Otherwise you can beggar off :lmao:

Pud :twisted:

[RadioMaster]

just go on the jim stienman forum and you will find a massive amount of free stuff and they are so nice and welcoming. ;-)

that is the post I was waiting for. lol

my question is, and this is meant in the least offensive way, why do some some sites handle it strictly, as mlukfc, and other sites, (which would have been unnamend without the post above lol), dont really care about it.

Dont they have the same legal issues as mlukfc?

[mszee]

that is the post I was waiting for. lol

my question is, and this is meant in the least offensive way, why do some some sites handle it strictly, as mlukfc, and other sites, (which would have been unnamend without the post above lol), dont really care about it.

Dont they have the same legal issues as mlukfc?

They may not if they are in a different country...R. did say mlukfc is in Germany...

[Evil One]

Also something to point out is that here is moderated, the Rockman has pretty much no moderation at all. Just a different philosophy between boards I suppose.

[RadioMaster]

but whoever takes the responsibility for rockman still would have to fear worst case a lawsuit for putting un-copyrighted or copyrighted, or whatever material on their site.

[evil nickname]

But it's not on the jimsteinman.com site at all.

[Evil One]

Indeed. I believe Rapdishare could probably get in trouble for all the stuff that I uploaded, but not JimSteinman.com.

[RadioMaster]

dont rapidshare say that youre not allowed to upload copyrighted files? so they're out of hte noose.

[evil nickname]

But what if you upload it there so you can download it to another computer for personal use and/or educational purposes (which would be considered fair use)? You're out of the loop too...

Seriously though: such a broad disclaimer is pretty much a charade.

[Evil One]

Why are we having this discussion anyway?

[Pudding]

but whoever takes the responsibility for rockman still would have to fear worst case a lawsuit for putting un-copyrighted or copyrighted, or whatever material on their site.

I guess it's a case of fear or be feared :twisted:

Since most of the stuff shared on JimSteinman.com is Jim Steinman related i.e. he either wrote it or produced it, then I don't think Jim really gives a monkey's chuff. Jim's made plenty of money of his songs and the record companies have made even more.

Pud :twisted:

[daveake]

dont rapidshare say that youre not allowed to upload copyrighted files? so they're out of hte noose.

I'm sure they do, and I'm equally sure that they realise that the vast majority of stuff uploaded to rapidshare is copyrighted. I doubt they'd remain in business if people actually followed that rule.

Dave

[daveake]

Since most of the stuff shared on JimSteinman.com is Jim Steinman related i.e. he either wrote it or produced it, then I don't think Jim really gives a monkey's chuff. Jim's made plenty of money of his songs and the record companies have made even more.

Pud :twisted:

I'm sure you're right - he has a very relaxed attitude to fans sharing his stuff.

I found the following quote interesting, from a recent court case brought by Jimmy Page against someone making a sh*tload of money from selling bootlegs. Page said:

"The legitimate part is where fans trade music, but once you start packaging it up and you do not know what you are getting, you are breaking the rules, legally, and morally,"

What Meat's position on this is I don't know. I fully understand why anyone running a forum would want a blanket rule disallowing the sharing of bootlegs.

Dave

[RadioMaster]

I'm sure they do, and I'm equally sure that they realise that the vast majority of stuff uploaded to rapidshare is copyrighted. I doubt they'd remain in business if people actually followed that rule.

Dave

yeah, they do, but legally they dont, so nobody can sue them for the stuff they host.
Thats what i meant.

[daveake]

yeah, they do, but legally they dont, so nobody can sue them for the stuff they host.
Thats what i meant.

I know what you meant :-). I was pointing out the irony of their rules vs their business model.

Dave

[Pudding]

What Meat's position on this is I don't know. I fully understand why anyone running a forum would want a blanket rule disallowing the sharing of bootlegs.

It's ridiculous in the fact that a bootleg of a show has never and will never replace the experience of actually being there at the live show. The artist certainly doesn't lose out, because their gigs are pre-sold prior to any bootleg being made. If there's no intention of releasing an official recording of the show I don't see what the big deal is. And there's absolutely NO song performed at a Meat Loaf concert that hasn't been sung many many times before, which is why I've refused so many bootlegs of his in the past, it's like history repeating.

A couple of years ago Meat Loaf said he was going to sort out some soundboard recordings of shows for the fans, which would completely undermine all forms of bootlegging from a dodgy recording device.

Pud :twisted: