'Faith healing'

[Pudding]

This is why I'm not religious :devil:

Article ----> HERE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8180116.stm)

A US jury has found a man guilty of killing his sick 11-year-old daughter by praying for her recovery rather than seeking medical care.

The man, Dale Neumann, told a court in the state of Wisconsin he believed God could heal his daughter.

She died of a treatable disease - undiagnosed diabetes - at home in rural Wisconsin in March last year, as people surrounded her and prayed.

Neumann's wife, Leilani Neumann, was convicted earlier this year.

The couple, who were both convicted of second-degree reckless homicide, face up to 25 years in prison when they are sentenced in October.

A lawyer representing Dale Neumann said he would appeal.

During the trial, medical experts told the court that Neumann's daughter could have survived if she had received treatment, including insulin and fluids, before she stopped breathing.

On Thursday Neumann, who is 47 and studied in the past to be a Pentecostal minister, said he thought God would heal his daughter.

"If I go to the doctor, I am putting the doctor before God," he said. "I am not believing what he said he would do."

He also said he thought his daughter had had flu or a fever, and that he had not realised how ill she was.

Neumann's lawyer said he had been convinced that his "faith healing" was working, and that he had committed no crime.

The prosecution argued that Neumann had minimised his daughter's illness and that he had allowed her to die as a selfish act of faith.

They said the girl should have been taken to hospital because she was unable to walk, talk, eat or drink.

Instead, an ambulance was only called once the girl had stopped breathing.

[The Flying Mouse]

:twisted: Dudes like this, they should fire a loaded gun at their head and see if they can pray hard and fast enough to get god to "stop the mother f*cking bullets" (Pulp Fiction reference I couldn't resist).

Perhaps God's aswers to prayers is medical science that saves so many lives?

It reminds me of the movie Leap Of Faith, where Steve Martin is talking to the crippled kid who thinks god will heal him, and Steve Martin says something about as long as he's doing everything he can there's nothing wrong with prayer, but God won't make you better sitting on your ass.

[Pudding]

Perhaps God's aswers to prayers is medical science that saves so many lives?

Agreed :up:

[Hypnobabe]

Perhaps God's aswers to prayers is medical science that saves so many lives?


You kind of remind me of the old joke about the guy sitting on the roof of his house in the middle of a massive flood, when a boat comes past and the guy says "God will save me." Another boat comes past, same thing happens. Eventually a rescue helicopter comes past, again, the guy says "God will save me." The waters continue to rise, and some hours later the guy succumbs to hypothermia and drowns, and upon entering heaven, he says to God, "Why didn't you save me?" And God replies, "I sent two boats and a helicopter, what more did you want?!?"

[sexyeyes_jo]

i think thats disgraceful really if god was real alot of miracles would happen alot more, but i just think whats the point in wasting time in believing something that ain't real, but surely your kids would come first weather they are ill or not weather you believe in god or not

[allrevvedup]

You kind of remind me of the old joke about the guy sitting on the roof of his house in the middle of a massive flood, when a boat comes past and the guy says "God will save me." Another boat comes past, same thing happens. Eventually a rescue helicopter comes past, again, the guy says "God will save me." The waters continue to rise, and some hours later the guy succumbs to hypothermia and drowns, and upon entering heaven, he says to God, "Why didn't you save me?" And God replies, "I sent two boats and a helicopter, what more did you want?!?"

funnily enough my brother said exactly the same thing when I mentioned this thread to him last night.

as for the topic...I think the devout person at the end of the day will have to look and say that if something is seriously wrong with their child, they must take them somewhere that they can be taken care of.

It's the assumptions that tend to annoy me more then anything else. If he was a medical professional and a devout lover of god I could appreciate his stance slightly more, but it seems like he based it all on guess work.

Then again if he was a medical professional he probably wouldn't have left it get to that stage in the first place.

As the saying goes, God hears all prayers but sometimes the answer is no.

[Pudding]

You kind of remind me of the old joke

FM probably here's that a lot :lmao:

[mszee]

You kind of remind me of the old joke about the guy sitting on the roof of his house in the middle of a massive flood, when a boat comes past and the guy says "God will save me." Another boat comes past, same thing happens. Eventually a rescue helicopter comes past, again, the guy says "God will save me." The waters continue to rise, and some hours later the guy succumbs to hypothermia and drowns, and upon entering heaven, he says to God, "Why didn't you save me?" And God replies, "I sent two boats and a helicopter, what more did you want?!?"

Exactly what I have thought about...how can religious person think that God is so powerless that he is not able to create science of medicine???

[The Flying Mouse]

:twisted: Ralph, a religious man, goes to Church one Sunday.
He kneels at the alter, places his hands together, bows his head in reverence and says "God, please, please, let me win the lottery.I want to win the lottery".

Wednesday comes, Saturday comes, no jackpot.

He goes to church the next Sunday.
Kneeling at the alter, he again addresses God.
"God, I have always been a faithful servant to you.I ask you again, please let me win the lottery".

Wednesday, Saturday, nadda.

He goes again and talks to the big guy upstairs.
"God, I ask you once, I ask you twice, I ask you THREE times, PLEASE, let me win the lottery, I beg of you, please let me win the lottery".

God shrugs and answers "hey fella, c'mon, cut me a little slack here, at lease buy a damn ticket" :shrug:


God doesn't always help those who help themselves, but the guys who don't even try don't stand a chance.

[Pudding]

Exactly what I have thought about...how can religious person think that God is so powerless that he is not able to create science of medicine???

Absolutely.

[daveake]

Exactly what I have thought about...how can religious person think that God is so powerless that he is not able to create science of medicine???

Good point. Maybe he created it when feeling guilty for having created the diseases in the first place?

[mszee]

Well...this is how I see it...God created people and put them on Earth...haven't created jobs, money, mortgages, stress, etc...

Live, eat berries (or anything else you can find - all natural and organic certified by higher authority), hunt whatever if you feel like it, have sex, have babies...take care of them...or not take care of them...and so on...and that's about it...

Yeah, life span was somewhat short...but what quality!!!

We have invented the rest, didn't we??? I will be so lucky if I can retire at 70...that is providing I am still alive...

[evil nickname]

We have invented the rest, didn't we?

Yeah, but with god being omniscient, he should've seen this mess coming. And yet, despite being benevolent, he went ahead and created the whole shebang anyway. Way to go.

[mszee]

Yeah, but with god being omniscient, he should've seen this mess coming. And yet, despite being benevolent, he went ahead and created the whole shebang anyway. Way to go.

Seeing recent wars, economic crisis and global weather whatever...I think he is trying to undo his creation mistake...lol

[~Helen~]

Yeah, but with god being omniscient, he should've seen this mess coming. And yet, despite being benevolent, he went ahead and created the whole shebang anyway. Way to go.

Not wanting to get into a religious debate, there is of course the belief that he does see it coming - he knows what is going to happen, but he doesn't control what we as humans do but allows us to make the choices ourselves - just as Adam (& Eve) ate the forbidden apple through choice. He merely guides us by what is right and wrong if we are prepared to listen to it.

I know some of you won't agree; I am just putting forward the counter-argument.

Good point. Maybe he created it when feeling guilty for having created the diseases in the first place?

He didn't - mostly humans did.

[Pudding]

Not wanting to get into a religious debate, there is of course the belief that he does see it coming - he knows what is going to happen, but he doesn't control what we as humans do but allows us to make the choices ourselves - just as Adam (& Eve) ate the forbidden apple through choice. He merely guides us by what is right and wrong if we are prepared to listen to it.

My 17 year old nephew died a few months ago, he had Muscular Dystrophy, he had absolutely no choices whatsoever. A friend of mine who was only 30 died a couple of weeks ago riddled with cancer, he never smoked, was a fitness instructor and one of the nicest guys you could ever meet, he just got married and a baby girl, he had absolutely no choices whatsoever.

If God does exist, then he's a sick and twisted b@st@rd who gets his jollies from watching the good die young.

[~Helen~]

My 17 year old nephew died a few months ago, he had Muscular Dystrophy, he had absolutely no choices whatsoever. A friend of mine who was only 30 died a couple of weeks ago riddled with cancer, he never smoked, was a fitness instructor and one of the nicest guys you could ever meet, he just got married and a baby girl, he had absolutely no choices whatsoever.

If God does exist, then he's a sick and twisted b@st@rd who gets his jollies from watching the good die young.

Good enough points (and condolences to you for your losses) though I think the belief is ... oh dear I'll Google it (first site I found)...

God pronounced judgement and punishment upon His creatures ....... Adam's curse brought death, weeds, decay and drudgery into the whole creation.

So it's Adam's fault?? Lol. Err ...or Humankind as a whole that caused the problems - and there are plenty of other situations where suffering occurs to people who aren't deserving of it (although who is?) - rape, abuse, violence.

I tried googling this as I was curious what the general belief is on it and struggled to find anything particularly 'helpful', aside of the suggestion that ...death is not a personal punishment, but the inheritance of the brokenness of original sin. Neither is death a personal punishment to the bereaved.

So... I don't know. But I still think humankind is largely responsible as whole, not individually, for many (not all) of the illnesses and problems in the world

[daveake]

The point is though, that regardless of what percentage of disasters and diseases you can try and blame mankind for, this "God" person is responsible for the rest. In which case, assuming he is all powerful, he's also a mean ~~~~~~~.

Alternatively, and rather more simply, he just doesn't exist.

[Pudding]

So... I don't know. But I still think humankind is largely responsible as whole, not individually, for many (not all) of the illnesses and problems in the world

Name some illnesses humankind is responsible for and I'll name ten times as many that they're not.

If God did create Adam then he didn't do a great job since he was riddled with genetic disorders that has been passed down through the ages.

[~Helen~]

Alternatively, and rather more simply, he just doesn't exist.

I did some more reading (googling!) and apparently that's it. Christianity is based on faith and if bad things happened only to bad people and good people came away unscathed then no faith would be required.

First of all, if God wanted to remove all doubt about his existence, He could do so — but, He doesn’t because the cornerstone of Christianity is faith.

Imagine what would happen if bad things DIDN’T happen to good people. What if when an airline crashed, only the non-Christians died while all the believers walked away unscathed? What if the moment someone became an atheist, he was immediately struck by lightning and killed? What if every rape, murder, robbery, and painful illness only happened to non-believers? If that were the case, then no faith would be required to be a Christian.

More here http://mensnewsdaily.com/2009/05/15/why-does-god-allow-bad-things-to-happen-to-good-people/

I don't really get it to be honest. I have a friend who when faced with a question he can't answer, or a disagreement, just keeps talking. He's Irish and his accent brings with it some charm, but also makes it difficult for some people to understand what he's saying. Eventually he seems to confuse them into agreeing with him or believing he knows what he's talking about. Afterwards, they're left wondering whether he answered them or not. The article confused me, I can't work out if the answer was in there.

[duke knooby]

He's Irish and his accent brings with it some charm

:D



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGASvVqzOa0&feature=related

he was a legend!!

[evil nickname]

there is of course the belief that he does see it coming - he knows what is going to happen, but he doesn't control what we as humans do but allows us to make the choices ourselves

So you're saying God's not almighty like he says he is (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+17:1) in the Bible?

You may claim the world's imperfect because of that goshdarn free will humans have, but even so, he should have known this was going to happen (all-knowing god, right?) and did nothing to prevent all hurt, suffering, war and what have you. Or, as you believe it to be, he can't do nothing about it.

(Disclaimer: I'm one of those annoying godless types who think that the chance that a supernatural being like the one posed in the bible exists is about as large as the chance that there's an invisible pink unicorn in the room right now.)

[duke knooby]

(Disclaimer: I'm one of those annoying godless types who think that the chance that a supernatural being like the one posed in the bible exists is about as large as the chance that there's an invisible pink unicorn in the room right now.)

can you proove they're isn't an invisible pink unicorn in the room???

[~Helen~]

So you're saying God's not almighty like he says he is (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+17:1) in the Bible?

All I claim is that I don't know. I google things. It means I don't need to express an opinion - most of the time.

can you proove they're isn't an invisible pink unicorn in the room???

Do you believe there is an invisible pink unicorn in the room? Indeed do you believe in their existence?? If you believed there to be an invisible pink unicorn in the room, would I be able to prove to you that there wasn't??

[Pudding]

I think I need several drinks now :wtf: :hic:

[evil nickname]

can you proove they're isn't an invisible pink unicorn in the room???

No, I can't, and that's exactly the point: you cannot prove that something doesn't exist, and extraordanary claims require extraordinary evidence. If I should claim that invisible pink unicorns are real and that there is, in fact, one in my room right now who speaks to me and touches me (in a good way, you pervert ;)), then it's up to me to prove that that is so.

[duke knooby]

Do you believe there is an invisible pink unicorn in the room? Indeed do you believe in their existence?? If you believed there to be an invisible pink unicorn in the room, would I be able to prove to you that there wasn't??

and there we have the basis of many (most) religions summed up in a nutshell

belief and/or faith

[Pudding]

I'd rather believe in pink unicorns than God any day. At least there hasn't been any wars fought in the name of pink unicorns. Saying that, I haven't read the last Harry Potter book, so who knows :shrug:

[mszee]

Yeah...there is definitely neverending and everlasting debate here...

For me...it's definitely more about faith than religion...I am not religious in any conventional sense of the word...but I consider myself very religious in a sense that I do keep the faith...no matter what...

[Pudding]

Religion is faith, faith isn't necessarily religion. So you can have faith without being religious.

[mszee]

Since I was talking about myself personally, for me faith is a religion...

[Pudding]

I have faith Meats next album will be good (on the whole) but that's not a religion ;) maybe it should be :shock: The Gospels according to Saint Marvin :pray:

[Evil One]

The Gospels according to Saint Marvin :pray:
That was the Meatloaf.net forums wasn't it? :whistle:

[Paul191]

Not wanting to get into a religious debate, there is of course the belief that he does see it coming - he knows what is going to happen, but he doesn't control what we as humans do but allows us to make the choices ourselves - just as Adam (& Eve) ate the forbidden apple through choice. He merely guides us by what is right and wrong if we are prepared to listen to it.

I know some of you won't agree; I am just putting forward the counter-argument.



He didn't - mostly humans did.

I tend not to get into the whole religion debate because being a student of BSc science (BioChem) I can't help but feel slightly biased. However, when people say things like 'Human's created most diseases', I have to but in and say you are wrong, just plain wrong.

[mszee]

Well, somebody definitely has more faith than me...lol...