A serious question about Meat, notes, singing and ears! [Archive]

Evil One

21 Dec 2010, 13:22

nikox1

21 Dec 2010, 13:32

I'm well aware that as Meat has got older his voice has changed, and I'm also aware that as we age our hearing also changes. For the last 10 years or so Meat's live singing style has included him hitting a note that goes straight through me and is unpleasant. I've noticed it quite a bit on the MSO DVD, and a fair bit on the 3 Bats :shock: DVD too.

Does anyone else experience this and know what I'm talking about, or am I spouting out of my arse as usual? :shrug:

Before anyone pounces on me, I'm not intending this to be another Evil versus Loaf thread. :roll:

Meat has hes very own unique style of singing to say the least. i cant say ive noticed it? the show i was at on saturday blew me away, such power he has still. going back to the Bat 3 tour i dont remember being too dissapointed with hes vocals either? but if you feel or heard this note!! well fair enough

Evil One

21 Dec 2010, 13:49

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about the vocals. Just one particular note that disagrees with my hearing. I've never noticed it in person, nor on HCTB so maybe it comes from the process of recording Meat's live vocals or maybe it's just me.

The bit that immediately comes to mind is Paradise on the MSO DVD, just after the Adam Sandler impression when Meat does the 'It was long ago and far away...' bit in a higher pitch. :shrug:

AndyK

21 Dec 2010, 13:55

I always thought it was the eyesight that got ruined over time :twisted:

I'd guess it's just the specific frequency of that one note and your ears.

Evil One

21 Dec 2010, 14:03

I always thought it was the eyesight that got ruined over time :twisted:
I can barely read that!

I'd guess it's just the specific frequency of that one note and your ears.
It's quite possible. One of the disadvantages to being a nightclub manager for many years. :?

Paul Richardson

21 Dec 2010, 14:32

This is probably not going to be popular .... but here goes ...

I don't know how Meat does it. There are certain verses and lines within songs which he delivers with so much effort and power he sounds incredible, and yet when he sings 'normally' he appears (in my opinion) to struggle at times.

At times you think he's lost it and at others you think he's singing as well as he's ever done. The quality of the HCTB / Bat 3 vocals are probably down to editing a number of takes together, and I once read that Dead Ringer's vocals were recorded line by line and spliced together.

There's probably no doubt that his voice has been damaged over the years or has just grown older (certainly it sounds very different in each decade) and I think he now compensates in a kind of mannered style.

MeatGrl1

21 Dec 2010, 14:44

Or mabe the cyst had something to do with it :roll: !!

Paul Richardson

21 Dec 2010, 14:58

Or mabe the cyst had something to do with it :roll: !!

Here's what everyone's favourite online encyclopedia has to say about vocal cysts:

"Vocal fold cysts are collections of fluid in sac-like formations on the vocal folds."

"Cysts can deteriorate the quality of human speech production, causing diplophonia, a condition where the vocal cords produce multiple tones at the same time, or dysphonia, an impaired quality of voice typically involving hoarseness or a breathy sound."

"Cysts occur when a glandular duct becomes blocked and is unable to secrete. This can occur after an upper respiratory infection combined with vocal overuse."

"A ruptured cyst may result in a scar."

"Initial treatment of the cysts involves vocal training and speech therapy along with medical interventions to decrease irritation of the cyst. In many cases, these will alleviate problems from the cyst. In some cases, the cyst grows larger necessitating surgery to remove the cyst. Vocal professionals may also require surgery as the minimal steps do not improve the voice quality enough to allow continued performance with the voice."

Wario

21 Dec 2010, 15:06

I agree with 3 Bats man, but MSO is perfect. The audience recording that does exist of the first half of the show, though does have a very weird sounding moment during the intro to revved up and thats why we only get the one riff instead of the riff repeated. But thats nt the official source.

3 Bats from TMIL on I can see what you are saying.

For me also, I hate during the live rehersal B-Sides the constant whistling of the damn mics. And Everything Louder pains my ears to listen to.

But the thing I find most unbearable to listen to at times is modern Girl on LIVE IN 1987. The production value of that glorious version makes me cringe every time I listen to it. That song in particular was produced the worst and the shittiest. But Meat's singing makes it semi-bearable.

That being said, Meat is the best singer in the world.

AndyK

21 Dec 2010, 15:39

I can barely read that!

It's quite possible. One of the disadvantages to being a nightclub manager for many years. :?

If you want anything in a bigger font, just let me know ;-)

I know for sure that a number of decades of attending live concerts must have affected my hearing. There are times at many shows where certains volumes or frequencies just don't sound right to me, and I don't cope with distortion well at all. Having said that Meat's shows this year have had an exceptional live mix, perfectly clear and loud enough but not too loud that it distorts.

AndrewG

21 Dec 2010, 15:49

At times you think he's lost it and at others you think he's singing as well as he's ever done. The quality of the HCTB / Bat 3 vocals are probably down to editing a number of takes together, and I once read that Dead Ringer's vocals were recorded line by line and spliced together.

We had endless debates on here before about how the vocals were achieved on HCTB but to me after hearing absolutely stunning vocals live on tour just a few weeks ago I can only conclude to get vocals THAT good you actually have to be able to sing THAT well and that's what Meat still does, no question. To me Meat has never sounded better in the studio. Hence I think it is crazy Steinman even considering doing other things is an absolute waste of his and my time in my opinion. This music (Bat and all the other songs etc) can simply not be performed any better or in any other format than with Meat at the helm imo (it's no coincidence the NLE still sounds amazing even when band members get replaced). Any Bat musical in my opinion seems like a tacky rip off which I am surprised the original creator is even involved in, but that's another story.

21 Dec 2010, 16:02

There is a slightly unpleasant phrase in our business (recording and mixing music):

"Sh1t goes in, sh1t comes out"

I.E there is only so much one can achieve in post production, the delivery has to be there in the first place. HCTB rocked in the studio, it rocks on CD, and it most certainly rocked live.

If I were to base my 'fandom' purely on HCTB and the NEC gig alone I'd be converted... it just so happens than Meat has a massive back-catalogue of amazing studio and live work that rivals anyone else out there. He's a one of a kind.

Luke

Paul Richardson

21 Dec 2010, 16:21

Any Bat musical in my opinion seems like a tacky rip off which I am surprised the original creator is even involved in, but that's another story.

Probably because the Bat / Neverland musical is his life's work and ambition ?

I agree though that Steinman should write and produce again with Meat or at the very least allow Meat to record some the songs he's 'saving'.

Evil One

21 Dec 2010, 18:33

it just so happens than Meat has a massive back-catalogue of amazing studio and live work that rivals anyone else out there.
Studio work :up:

Tours :up:

Officially released recordings of tours :down:

But thats a whole other kettle of elephants. :nuts:

21 Dec 2010, 18:37

Studio work :up:

Tours :up:

Officially released recordings of tours :down:

But thats a whole other kettle of elephants. :nuts:

I guess the stuff on the shelves would be a bad indication if that were all you heard, yes, it's a shame that the bootlegs are better.

Meat, give those live multi-tracks to me!! Lets do one for the fans and non-believers alike.

Evil One

21 Dec 2010, 18:46

I guess the stuff on the shelves would be a bad indication if that were all you heard.
Indeed. Going off on a tangent, the only great quality live stuff officially out there is:

Live Around The World :D
Live With The MSO DVD :D
HCTB Bonus disc of the Casa De Carne Tour :D
A handful of B-sides which are now out of print :(

All the rest is either poorly produced, a recording of a poor show or is only available on outdated technology. It's hardly a good advert for a man who's live shows are so much better than his studio work. :shrug:

24K

21 Dec 2010, 19:03

Can't say i have noticed, but thats not to say that you are hearing something that your ears dislike.
I must say i am getting deafer and have ringing in my ears, my Dr has little sympathy, he knows i go to a load of Meat shows;) LOL...could give it up, or NOT ! My eyes are thankfully fine !

Dave

21 Dec 2010, 19:05

I don't know how Meat does it. There are certain verses and lines within songs which he delivers with so much effort and power he sounds incredible, and yet when he sings 'normally' he appears (in my opinion) to struggle at times.

It is his technique. I am the same way. I can sing a powerhouse song like Bat out of Hell, Purple Rain, or The Show Must Go On like nobody's business. However, give me a basis four bar rock song - I suck. I can totally relate to what Meat has said about being an actor who sings. I am the same way.

Pudding

21 Dec 2010, 20:26

For the last 10 years or so Meat's live singing style has included him hitting a note that goes straight through me and is unpleasant.

He seems to me to labour a bit on certain notes, almost to the point that he's on a different tempo to the rest of the band :shrug:

A Slice Of English

21 Dec 2010, 20:53

I find that Meat's voice these days has a raw-er edge to it, perhaps a little more throaty and less "pure" than his younger days. A couple of my friends don't like this but I have to say that I actually do like it, which is perhaps why I like the vocal performances on HCTB so much. A touch of gravel or as I prefer it:

"...granite on my breath..."

:)

youngJB

21 Dec 2010, 23:26

CarylB

22 Dec 2010, 00:32

Paul Richardson

22 Dec 2010, 01:04

Meat has just completed 10 shows over here, and almost everyone who has been to one or more of them has repeatedly praised his fine vocals. It's been a triumph, and he's aced song after song, night after night. His voice varied depending on the song and the level of passion and characterisation he puts into each. Worked perfect at every show I attended. He's nailed BOOH time after time, delivered stunning renditions of the new material as well as the classics, and 2 Out of 3 has been wonderful, every time.

Caryl

The Newcastle show I went to was really good, but are you seriously saying that Meat is perfect all the time ?

He does struggle at times and did in the middle section at Newcastle. I don't think this is a problem and it didn't spoil my night, hell, he's in his sixties singing some demanding songs in a two hour plus show, but we shouldn't pretend everything is always perfect.

Just my opinion.

renegadeangel

22 Dec 2010, 01:16

We had endless debates on here before about how the vocals were achieved on HCTB but to me after hearing absolutely stunning vocals live on tour just a few weeks ago I can only conclude to get vocals THAT good you actually have to be able to sing THAT well and that's what Meat still does, no question. To me Meat has never sounded better in the studio. Hence I think it is crazy Steinman even considering doing other things is an absolute waste of his and my time in my opinion. This music (Bat and all the other songs etc) can simply not be performed any better or in any other format than with Meat at the helm imo (it's no coincidence the NLE still sounds amazing even when band members get replaced). Any Bat musical in my opinion seems like a tacky rip off which I am surprised the original creator is even involved in, but that's another story.

Meat still has the vocals to do the job. My opinion is that there is more to why Jim and Meat aren't working together than we know. It probably has more to do with the business end of things then anything else. Unfortunately.

Evil One

22 Dec 2010, 01:18

It probably has more to do with the business end of things then anything else. Unfortunately.
Or it could boil down to the simple facts that Meat is stubborn, Jim is lazy and David Sonenberg is a huge, slimy ~~~~. :shrug:

Paul Richardson

22 Dec 2010, 01:28

Meat still has the vocals to do the job. My opinion is that there is more to why Jim and Meat aren't working together than we know.

I agree. Whatever the resons why they aren't / won't / can't, neither is getting any younger, so for all our sakes they just need to get on with it !

CarylB

22 Dec 2010, 01:47

The Newcastle show I went to was really good, but are you seriously saying that Meat is perfect all the time ?

I said it works perfect for me .. an expression that does the job for me. I do not pretent that everything is utterly perfect .. I have observed that pretty much all the reviews posted here by fans who have attended the shows are basically hugely enthusiastic, saying Meat's vocals have been marvellous, etc ..

I do not pretend; nor however do I look for flies in the ointment when a tour is going so brilliantly with such almost unanimous positive feedback.

Just my opinion.

And I posted my opinion. Others may do as they will; I have no nterest in their balls. I do however prefer to celebrate a fantastic tour of great performances, in the vein of almost all the fan reviews here this time, and say that I agree with Meat and so many others who have also said it here; his vocals have been consistently better and stronger than we've heard in years.

Nor do I think he needs to work with Steinman. I love his new style and look forward to more of that on the new album. My opinion. Meat's said Steinman isn't interested. I have no interest in speculation as to the reaaons .. I shall simply look forward to what Meat delivers on his next album.

Caryl

Pudding

22 Dec 2010, 02:01

Nor do I think he needs to work with Steinman

I believe people are only suggesting that because Meats biggest successes are either with Steinman or Steinmanesque and they wish Meat all the success in the world...nothing wrong with that.

daveake

22 Dec 2010, 02:24

I believe people are only suggesting that because Meats biggest successes are either with Steinman or Steinmanesque and they wish Meat all the success in the world...nothing wrong with that.

I'd like to see them work together again, not least because with Meat's voice in good form lately it would in my opinion be a shame to waste it on HCTB-style and HCTB-quality material.

nikox1

22 Dec 2010, 02:41

I like Meats new sound, its fresh and interesting. dont get me wrong, Jim is a fantastic writer, but ive always said that if the two want to work together again they will? its that simple really. if its what they both want? it will happen. if not, well theres your answer!! i dony buy into its the managers to blame etc etc,, but its between Meat and Jim and its there bizz. im not gonna speculate on it, Meat told us a little bit about what happened around Bat 3 and thats what i will believe until im told different.

just a quick question? is it true Kasim and Mark Alex are helping with the Bat musical?

Evil One

22 Dec 2010, 10:39

just a quick question? is it true Kasim and Mark Alex are helping with the Bat musical?
Apparently so. According to Jim's Facebook page Mark 'can't wait to give the songs the respect they deserve' :roll: and Kasim is in charge of the band.

AndrewG

22 Dec 2010, 11:12

Apparently so. According to Jim's Facebook page Mark 'can't wait to give the songs the respect they deserve' :roll: and Kasim is in charge of the band.

I get the impression Meat is a lot more responsible for how good the NLE sounds than what many people give him credit for. Why is it when we get a new piano player and new bass player and get rid of the old musical director is it still possible for the music to sound better?! Ridiculous self centred statement by Mark imo.

Evil One

22 Dec 2010, 11:33

It's possible, but I also have a long held view that when Kasim took over, the arrangements of many songs became not quite as good :bleh: as they used to be.

CarylB

22 Dec 2010, 11:43

I get the impression Meat is a lot more responsible for how good the NLE sounds than what many people give him credit for.

With you 100% on that! The arrangements imo are fresh, better and bring the whole show in line with Meat's musical vision and delight. I think all the band's talents are finally being allowed to flourish, and in Justin Meat has a genius with a magical touch.

I tend to agree with your view of comments made by some on Facebook pages Andrew .. but just want to emphasise the positive of what Meat has brought together this tour. Meat, and we are better than such pointed comments imo. He and his current band are the business, so I prefer to celebrate that and look forward to more :-)

Caryl

carole

22 Dec 2010, 11:46

I'd like to see them work together again, not least because with Meat's voice in good form lately it would in my opinion be a shame to waste it on HCTB-style and HCTB-quality material.

I don't think Meat's voice is being 'wasted' on HCTB-style or quality material.

Carole

Pudding

22 Dec 2010, 11:50

I don't think Meat's voice is being 'wasted' on HCTB-style or quality material.

The success of the album speaks for itself.

Mr. Happy

22 Dec 2010, 12:06

Originally Posted by daveake
I'd like to see them work together again, not least because with Meat's voice in good form lately it would in my opinion be a shame to waste it on HCTB-style and HCTB-quality material.
Now that's just harsh, Hang Cool Teddy Bear is a perfectly fine album (his voice is hardly being wasted). It may not be Bat out of Hell II quality, but it's still an amazing album. It's certainly one of the better albums he's ever produced. Elvis in Vegas and Song of Madness in particular say hi. I certainly wont be complaining if Hell in a Handbasket turns out to be around the same quality as HCTB.

That said, I'll still be first in line to support Meat singing What Part of My Body, Braver Than We Are and / or (please be and) Still the Children. Not to mention anything else Jim has tucked away >.>

The success of the album speaks for itself.
The fact that it got into the Classic Rock thing speaks for itself.

Paul Richardson

22 Dec 2010, 12:32

I don't think Meat's voice is being 'wasted' on HCTB-style or quality material.

I like HCTB, its just I like Meat performing Steinman songs an awful lot more.

With Seinman, Meat has produced two of the best albums of all time and two great, but flawed, albums where Steinman supplied all / the majority of the songs.

Without Stienman in six goes he's managed one album (HCTB) which has some credibility, but even this has not been a commercial success.

Just imagine how different things would be if they'd suppressed their egos and found a way to work together continuously during the past 30 odd years.

A Slice Of English

22 Dec 2010, 12:50

WTTN had a lot of credibility and was a good album that sold well with several high-charting singles. CHSIB did ok, as did Bat 3 and HCTB charted inside the top 10 in the UK which also makes it moderately successful. I don't think you can really argue that Meat hasn't been a commercial success without Steinman because if he wasn't successful, he would find it hard to continue making albums with big names producers and special guests like he has been doing.

Bat 2 is my favourite album of all time across ANY singer/group or genre but I love the new style in HCTB with its raw edge and it's rather infectious positivity from Meat. I don't think I would ever say to Meat "You did ok with these albums but please now go back to doing Steinman numbers, it's what you're best at".

If Meat and Steinman had worked together continuously over the last 30-some years, then Meat would probably only have one other album to his name after Bat 2.

daveake

22 Dec 2010, 12:51

Now that's just harsh, Hang Cool Teddy Bear is a perfectly fine album (his voice is hardly being wasted)..

Not harsh at all - it's my genuine opinion (and I deliberately put the word "opinion" in my post to make that obvious :roll:). For me Meat's voice is one of only two good things about the album (the other being the production). The songs are all (in my opinion) second rate and the lyrics worse.

If you don't think I'm being genuine, consider that this is the only Meat album that I do not own.

Also, for whatever reason, the album's commercial success has been rather limited so there's the point that not enough people are hearing his voice these days.

Dave

Evil One

22 Dec 2010, 12:53

I don't think I would ever say to Meat "You did ok with these albums but please now go back to doing Steinman numbers, it's what you're best at".
I would! :twisted:
If Meat and Steinman had worked together continuously over the last 30-some years, then Meat would probably only have one other album to his name after Bat 2.
Meat would probably have throttled Steinman by now! ;)

Paul Richardson

22 Dec 2010, 13:30

WTTN had a lot of credibility and was a good album that sold well with several high-charting singles. CHSIB did ok, as did Bat 3 and HCTB charted inside the top 10 in the UK which also makes it moderately successful.

We'll have to agree to disagree over WTTN, personally I dislike Dianne Warren's attempts to write a 'Meat Loaf' song, and the album probably owed much of its commercial success to following hard on the heels of Bat 2.

I think though that its comparitive success we're talking about, its difficult to argue that Meat's career and reputation are not defined by Bat 1, Bat 2 and arguably Bat 3, as this is where he has been most successful both artistically and commercially.

I don't think I would ever say to Meat "You did ok with these albums but please now go back to doing Steinman numbers, it's what you're best at".

Possibly it is actually what he is best at, in fact he's probably better at it than anyone else.

If Meat and Steinman had worked together continuously over the last 30-some years, then Meat would probably only have one other album to his name after Bat 2.

I'm no Steinman expert (so I'm sure somone will come along and help me out) but since Bat 2 Steinman has worked on Whistle Down The Wind, Tanz der Vampire, and the Batman Musical, so that's the eqivalent of potentially three albums that could have been written for Meat.

In addition we'd probably have at least another album or two from the 80s given Steinman's collaborations with other artists.

So maybe we'd be up to Bat 6 or 7 (!) :twisted:

In anycase I'd rather have quality over quantity, if it meant fewer albums like MATLAF, BA or BBIS, to name just three ...

AndrewG

22 Dec 2010, 13:49

Possibly it is actually what he is best at, in fact he's probably better at it than anyone else.

Exactly my thoughts, hence I bring Steinman up so much. If we the world's best song writer (that I know of) then why not have the world's best singer (that I know of) sing the songs? But then there are some people who seem to think the singer doesn't matter and we can average Broadway singers such as Rob Evan do Steinman stuff. :barf:

daveake

22 Dec 2010, 13:56

Exactly my thoughts, hence I bring Steinman up so much. If we the world's best song writer (that I know of) then why not have the world's best singer (that I know of) sing the songs?

Indeed

But then there are some people who seem to think the singer doesn't matter

True. And there are some that seem to think the song doesn't matter :roll:

... average Broadway singers such as Rob Evan do Steinman stuff. :barf:

I much prefer it when Rob does TSO stuff - that seems to get more out of him, for some reason :shrug:

Dave