How to fix things ...

[R.]

As suggested by Paul here (http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=568114&postcount=136).

[JennaG]

I enjoy taking part in discussions on this forum and feel that we have had some great discussions and I feel that the recent thread created by Paul has changed the vibes within this community. I no longer get the feeling that we are at the stage where we were a couple of weeks ago where there was a definate air of argumentativeness amongst members.

I think what is causing the problem is opinions. We're not all going to have the same opinion and it would be a pretty boring world if we did but I feel that some people are percieving their opinions to be superior or perhaps that their opinion is the truth and those that don't agree are negative/blinded by love/insane and these are all things that have been thrown into discussions in recent months. I think that yes, people are entitled to have their opinion but when expressing it they ought to consider other people, their feelings and the fact that there are going to be some that won't share the same opinion. It doesn't mean that the opinion is less of a valid one.

We are all here because we enjoy the work that Meat (with the aid of the songwriters and his awesome band) has created, whether it's the classic stuff or the newer stuff, we still share that common interest.

Meat recorded a song called 'All of Me' which basically summed up who he is and I feel that the song was him asking for acceptance for all that he is. We know he's an emotional man, his performances wouldn't have the same passion if he wasn't. Whether we like his emotional side or not, it's him. He is in a unique position in that it's him we are talking about and if I were to get the amount of negatives that he has had to deal with at times, I'd be pretty upset too. He may be the performer and the celebrity but he's a human being and sometimes I think it would be beneficial to try and see things from his point of view.

I look forward to taking part in some interesting discussions as time goes on.

[stretch37]

A few weeks ago, several of us got really upset and went somewhere else because of this (well, most of us stayed here, but temporarily posted elsewhere). I actually had my account cancelled, and about a week or two later, really began to miss the diversity this place has to offer.

But before I had my account cancelled, I had been rallying for a different set of rules for this fan club because Meat takes part in our discussions.

Those of us who stood up for Meat's feelings of upsetness were told we were in the wrong and "shushed"....As well, those who felt Meat was in the wrong for being upset were "shushed". Generally by threads being closed. This has been the solution for years and has not worked. I agree its definitely time for something new.

The "new" thing has to be that, as part of the fan club rules, all comments must be respectful of Meat Loaf, and anyone who is not respectful is the one that should be individually "shushed", and, if they do not comply, should be banned.

"Respecting Meat & The NLE" should be regarded as:

Talking as if your in the same room as Meat Or A Band Member
Personal Opinion such as "i do not like this" is fine
Personal opinion such as "this performance is crap" is strictly forbidden
Critique of Meat Loaf as a person strictly forbidden (and unwelcome)
Mods take those lovely "hidden nuggets" of criticism as actual criticism, rather than letting them slip under the rug


There is an undercurrent of negativity that resides here. And that undercurrent is caused by the constant clash between two groups of people:

The "True Fans"
-Fans who go out of their way to treat Meat respectfully and act like a "fan" would towards an artist he/she adores.
-Generally are agreeable to Meat's ideas and form their thoughts towards him respectfully even if the thought is in disagreeance
-Feel bullied by "Honest Fans"

The "Honest Fans"
-Fans who feel that freedom of speech is the utmost important feature of these forums.
-Will speak their mind and word things how they feel in the moment without worry about how it will effect Meat.
-Tend to upset Meat at times, but also encourage some good conversation and laughter at other times
-Feel bullied by the "True Fans"

Generally most people on here fit into those two categories, whether they have always been a part of one or the other is irrelevant. I tend to side towards respecting Meat as I feel honored to be able to speak with him as a young boy who grew up on an island in Canada! What a dream come true. But I also respect those who speak their mind. Sometimes honesty is extremely refreshing.

But in the end, we have now collectively upset Meat. Blame cannot be placed in any one place. And as a group, it is our responsibility to right the wrong we have done. Perhaps an apology card is in order Caryl ? :-P But first, we need to decide how we can assure that this will NEVER happen again.

First step in my mind is that this forum have a new set of rules. This fan forum is *not* just any fan forum. It is one in which the artists visit and regularly participate, and it has shown over the years that rules that rules that would normally apply to just *any* fan club do not suffice here.

Thoughts ?

[DJLeen]

I find that a good idea.

[Vickip]

Skybird14 and stretch37 have both raised some very valid points.

I was one of the ones who left for a little bit because I couldn't deal with the negativity ... and as a result, I no longer
feel comfortable getting involved in the discussions. Nor will I post ANY video clips (such as Leno) or news links ... I'll leave those to
someone else from now on ;) I will say, however, that I'm thoroughly enjoying Paul's discussion about the CD production and thank him
for his continuing support and love that he clearly has for Meat :-)

For me it all boils down to two things :
(1). Respect : Respect for the feelings of anyone who posts on here, especially Meat.
(2). The Golden rule : Do unto others as you would have them do unto you .... and perhaps more importantly, think before you post.

[CarylB]

Perhaps an apology card is in order Caryl ? :-P

Not sure why this is addressed to me?

We've been here before. My view is this. I agree with Matt that having the artist visit here is pretty exceptional, and Paul's presence has certainly produced a more positive vibe.

Jenna wrote:

Meat recorded a song called 'All of Me' which basically summed up who he is and I feel that the song was him asking for acceptance for all that he is. We know he's an emotional man, his performances wouldn't have the same passion if he wasn't. Whether we like his emotional side or not, it's him. He is in a unique position in that it's him we are talking about and if I were to get the amount of negatives that he has had to deal with at times, I'd be pretty upset too. He may be the performer and the celebrity but he's a human being and sometimes I think it would be beneficial to try and see things from his point of view.

That sums it up for me. Meat doesn't expect everyone to like everything, and he is open to feedback on his work (and I use the word feedback intentionally, because in my experience once people start talking about giving "constructive criticism" what follows is frequently criticism with little constructive about it, not just here, but everywhere). But feedback needs to be given with an appreciation for the feelings of the person, or they simply can't hear it. And that's important, as is NOT criticising (constructively or otherwise) Meat's character, motivation, integrity and values. They're his and are not his work. And it would be good for people to remember how important his work is to him, how much effort and energy he puts into it, and bear in mind how he will feel when that is criticised.

Yes, opinions are fine .. and so is disagreeing with them. I hate the term "true fan" personally as I have no idea what that means and suspect everyone has a different perspective. But given I suspect I fall into Matt's definition above, I think it's perfectly fair for me to say I disagree with a criticism posted here as long as I don't dismiss it rudely, but simply post my different view .. and as long as I'm not dismissed as being besotted or blinded for not agreeing, I'm perfectly happy to post that view and move on. But tell me that's "typical" of me, or imply my judgement or rationality is flawed by my blindness or insanity and I won't. ;) I don't feel "bullied" .. no-one here puts the food on my table ;) .. but tell me I'm blinded by love or my beliefs/views are wrong and I'll respond. My views may be different, but no less valid. They're just mine.

And I think it's not unreasonable to expect than a fan site, by definition, will have many people posting who DO admire and love the performer and his work. Above all, everyone who posts here should have and show respect for Meat, for his endeavours, his honesty, the quality of the years of work he has given us, even when he produces a piece of work that appeals less to some of us. And respect and care for his feelings. His work is so much a part of him, springs from his inner creativity. He cares about it, he is passionate about it, he is honest about it. He seeks to find and deliver the truth. That means it matters to him. A lot.

You may not like something. This does not mean it has no value, nor that it is crap. It may have no value to you, but it has value to him, and to others .. like me :-)

This should be a no-brainer. It's about exercising thought, care and compassion, not more rules imo.

Caryl

[PanicLord]

For me it all boils down to two things :
(1). Respect : Respect for the feelings of anyone who posts on here, especially Meat.
(2). The Golden rule : Do unto others as you would have them do unto you .... and perhaps more importantly, think before you post.

Perfect - amen to this!

[stretch37]

Not sure why this is addressed to me?




LOL, well it definitely was NOT addressed to you because you owe anyone an apology, I just mean't that because you make up Meat's birthday cards, I made a joke that you could make a card for Meat we can all sign this time too.....Just a joke though by no means do I expect you to be the one to do this. You are by far one of the most fair and respectful fans on here, if not, THE most.

Cheers
Matt

[CarylB]

Gotcha ;) I was thinking of the cards the ref holds up :lol:

[robgomm]

I don't think things are truly terrible here. I would say the vast vast majority of members here are positive virtually all of the time. Unfortunately, and i've said this many times I think it's the same people that bring topics and this site down time and time again. If they left, this place would be a heck of a lot better. But unfortunately there is this thing called freedom of speech.

I think the real question has to be how far does freedom of speech stretch on a fan club site? In other words what level should be allowed. I think disrespectful, abusive comments should be kicked. When people use bad language towards the artist that's an immediate ban imo.

A month back I stuck my foot in it. You all know i'm one of Meats best supporters, but I also do reserve the right to make a critical comment. I made a wrong musical observation for which I have subsequently said sorry. What i would have liked to have happened is someone to correct me, me to apologise (as I did), and us all to move on. Instead what happened was a fiasco which was caused in my opinion not by my comment, but by a build up of feeling caused by the same few people over a long period of time. This would NEVER have happened if these people had been kicked. That's all i've got to say for now.

I'm saying freedom of speech, but respect for the artist as they know everything and we know nothing. And perhaps criticisms should be written as questions instead of people professing to know absolutely.

[CarylB]

I don't think freedom of speech is unfortunate ;) .. but abuse of the concept is imo. Where it has been enshrined in constitutions it hasn't been done with the intention of allowing anyone to say whatever they wanted to or about anyone, whenever or wherever they choose; it was granted for more worthy reasons, and isn't an absolute anyway. I see no reason in decent society why it should be held above human compassion or respect for others, nor used as an excuse for failing to demonstrate these.

It's not dishonest to consider the effect of one's words on the person they refer to, and think about that when publishing one's view of their work .. just reasonable in any decent society :-)

Caryl

[Mr. Happy]

A month back I stuck my foot in it. You all know i'm one of Meats best supporters, but I also do reserve the right to make a critical comment. I made a wrong musical observation for which I have subsequently said sorry. What i would have liked to have happened is someone to correct me, me to apologise (as I did), and us all to move on. Instead what happened was a fiasco which was caused in my opinion not by my comment, but by a build up of feeling caused by the same few people over a long period of time. This would NEVER have happened if these people had been kicked. That's all i've got to say for now.

I'm saying freedom of speech, but respect for the artist as they know everything and we know nothing. And perhaps criticisms should be written as questions instead of people professing to know absolutely.

Is that in reference to the Leno performance? See, the thing is, you were actually 100% correct (something like that isn't a matter of opinion, it either happened or it didn't), but people still felt the need to rip into you for whatever reason. Considering the amount of effort you put into supporting everything that Meat Loaf does, that attack was entirely unjustified, and I went a little :shock: after reading through all of that. It's not like you're the sort of person who waits for any opportunity to rip into Meat.

Generally, I don't think MLUKC deserves the bad reputation it receives. It IS positive for the most part. I don't think I've ever seen anyone outright attack Meat Loaf or anything he does, and if they have it's been deleted before I've had a chance to see it (which is good, because it shows that it isn't tolerated). Meat Loaf himself questioned whether this was worthy of being called a "fan club", and I don't think that's fair, because the people here are generally very positive and supportive. Sure, some people aren't always satisfied, but they don't exactly make an effort to start a feud with Meat over it.

BUT there are people who aren't happy with that, and feel the need to make sure everything is 100% positive, all the time. And that's when the whole bandwagon thing starts, and that's exactly what happened with the Leno thing. Rob said one thing - Meat disagreed (why, I don't know), and suddenly everyone was ripping into Rob. BUT...Rob was right. But because it wasn't 100% positive, people felt the need to question what was essentially a fact. Which blows my mind :shock: A more recent example was where someone made a comment which (as far as I can tell), wasn't meant to be taken literally (quantity vs quality), and was in turn attacked. It wasn't an expectation or insult, it was just an idle musing. Considering that, I again don't think was entirely justified.

To take that one step further. You know what that reminded me of? George Orwell, in 1984, where people are led to believe that 2 + 2 = 5.

Long story short. People to respect other people's posts (so long as they're not pointless criticism), and not mindlessly follow others (or attack it themselves) because the initial opinion wasn't blind praise. People are going to say "but that's not true!" but it is. It's not always a blatant statement that the person is wrong, but the inference is there, which causes hostilities. That's really all it comes down to. Freedom of speech is something that we're entitled too (so long as it doesn't cross any lines), but there are ocassions where this isn't evident. So long as people are respecting the fact that:

a) Meat is potentially going to read what you say
b) Despite a), you still have the right to voice your opinion (as long as you're polite ;) )

then that's really all that's needed to fix the problems :D

Just my potentially worthless 2c on the matter :)

[samurai7]

Is that in reference to the Leno performance? See, the thing is, you were actually 100% correct (something like that isn't a matter of opinion, it either happened or it didn't), but people still felt the need to rip into you for whatever reason. Considering the amount of effort you put into supporting everything that Meat Loaf does, that attack was entirely unjustified, and I went a little :shock: after reading through all of that. It's not like you're the sort of person who waits for any opportunity to rip into Meat.

Generally, I don't think MLUKC deserves the bad reputation it receives. It IS positive for the most part. I don't think I've ever seen anyone outright attack Meat Loaf or anything he does, and if they have it's been deleted before I've had a chance to see it (which is good, because it shows that it isn't tolerated). Meat Loaf himself questioned whether this was worthy of being called a "fan club", and I don't think that's fair, because the people here are generally very positive and supportive. Sure, some people aren't always satisfied, but they don't exactly make an effort to start a feud with Meat over it.

BUT there are people who aren't happy with that, and feel the need to make sure everything is 100% positive, all the time. And that's when the whole bandwagon thing starts, and that's exactly what happened with the Leno thing. Rob said one thing - Meat disagreed (why, I don't know), and suddenly everyone was ripping into Rob. BUT...Rob was right. But because it wasn't 100% positive, people felt the need to question what was essentially a fact. Which blows my mind :shock: A more recent example was where someone made a comment which (as far as I can tell), wasn't meant to be taken literally (quantity vs quality), and was in turn attacked. It wasn't an expectation or insult, it was just an idle musing. Considering that, I again don't think was entirely justified.

To take that one step further. You know what that reminded me of? George Orwell, in 1984, where people are led to believe that 2 + 2 = 5.

Long story short. People to respect other people's posts (so long as they're not pointless criticism), and not mindlessly follow others (or attack it themselves) because the initial opinion wasn't blind praise. People are going to say "but that's not true!" but it is. It's not always a blatant statement that the person is wrong, but the inference is there, which causes hostilities. That's really all it comes down to. Freedom of speech is something that we're entitled too (so long as it doesn't cross any lines), but there are ocassions where this isn't evident. So long as people are respecting the fact that:

a) Meat is potentially going to read what you say
b) Despite a), you still have the right to voice your opinion (as long as you're polite ;) )

then that's really all that's needed to fix the problems :D

Just my potentially worthless 2c on the matter :)

Very good post.

[Sue K]

I liked Paul's post... nice...xo

[allrevvedup]

Is that in reference to the Leno performance? See, the thing is, you were actually 100% correct (something like that isn't a matter of opinion, it either happened or it didn't), but people still felt the need to rip into you for whatever reason. Considering the amount of effort you put into supporting everything that Meat Loaf does, that attack was entirely unjustified, and I went a little :shock: after reading through all of that. It's not like you're the sort of person who waits for any opportunity to rip into Meat.

Generally, I don't think MLUKC deserves the bad reputation it receives. It IS positive for the most part. I don't think I've ever seen anyone outright attack Meat Loaf or anything he does, and if they have it's been deleted before I've had a chance to see it (which is good, because it shows that it isn't tolerated). Meat Loaf himself questioned whether this was worthy of being called a "fan club", and I don't think that's fair, because the people here are generally very positive and supportive. Sure, some people aren't always satisfied, but they don't exactly make an effort to start a feud with Meat over it.

BUT there are people who aren't happy with that, and feel the need to make sure everything is 100% positive, all the time. And that's when the whole bandwagon thing starts, and that's exactly what happened with the Leno thing. Rob said one thing - Meat disagreed (why, I don't know), and suddenly everyone was ripping into Rob. BUT...Rob was right. But because it wasn't 100% positive, people felt the need to question what was essentially a fact. Which blows my mind :shock: A more recent example was where someone made a comment which (as far as I can tell), wasn't meant to be taken literally (quantity vs quality), and was in turn attacked. It wasn't an expectation or insult, it was just an idle musing. Considering that, I again don't think was entirely justified.

To take that one step further. You know what that reminded me of? George Orwell, in 1984, where people are led to believe that 2 + 2 = 5.

Long story short. People to respect other people's posts (so long as they're not pointless criticism), and not mindlessly follow others (or attack it themselves) because the initial opinion wasn't blind praise. People are going to say "but that's not true!" but it is. It's not always a blatant statement that the person is wrong, but the inference is there, which causes hostilities. That's really all it comes down to. Freedom of speech is something that we're entitled too (so long as it doesn't cross any lines), but there are ocassions where this isn't evident. So long as people are respecting the fact that:

a) Meat is potentially going to read what you say
b) Despite a), you still have the right to voice your opinion (as long as you're polite ;) )

then that's really all that's needed to fix the problems :D

Just my potentially worthless 2c on the matter :)

Very good post.

I agree, it is a very good post..disagree with an opinion by all means but at least respect the right for that person to have it. If stretch believes that this site is divided into two camps then it's fair to say that there are those from both camps that don't always respect that right.

[melon]

I liked Paul's post... nice...xo
:up:

[Adje]

Very good post.

Is that in reference to the Leno performance? See, the thing is, you were actually 100% correct (something like that isn't a matter of opinion, it either happened or it didn't), but people still felt the need to rip into you for whatever reason. Considering the amount of effort you put into supporting everything that Meat Loaf does, that attack was entirely unjustified, and I went a little :shock: after reading through all of that. It's not like you're the sort of person who waits for any opportunity to rip into Meat.

Generally, I don't think MLUKC deserves the bad reputation it receives. It IS positive for the most part. I don't think I've ever seen anyone outright attack Meat Loaf or anything he does, and if they have it's been deleted before I've had a chance to see it (which is good, because it shows that it isn't tolerated). Meat Loaf himself questioned whether this was worthy of being called a "fan club", and I don't think that's fair, because the people here are generally very positive and supportive. Sure, some people aren't always satisfied, but they don't exactly make an effort to start a feud with Meat over it.

BUT there are people who aren't happy with that, and feel the need to make sure everything is 100% positive, all the time. And that's when the whole bandwagon thing starts, and that's exactly what happened with the Leno thing. Rob said one thing - Meat disagreed (why, I don't know), and suddenly everyone was ripping into Rob. BUT...Rob was right. But because it wasn't 100% positive, people felt the need to question what was essentially a fact. Which blows my mind :shock: A more recent example was where someone made a comment which (as far as I can tell), wasn't meant to be taken literally (quantity vs quality), and was in turn attacked. It wasn't an expectation or insult, it was just an idle musing. Considering that, I again don't think was entirely justified.

To take that one step further. You know what that reminded me of? George Orwell, in 1984, where people are led to believe that 2 + 2 = 5.

Long story short. People to respect other people's posts (so long as they're not pointless criticism), and not mindlessly follow others (or attack it themselves) because the initial opinion wasn't blind praise. People are going to say "but that's not true!" but it is. It's not always a blatant statement that the person is wrong, but the inference is there, which causes hostilities. That's really all it comes down to. Freedom of speech is something that we're entitled too (so long as it doesn't cross any lines), but there are ocassions where this isn't evident. So long as people are respecting the fact that:

a) Meat is potentially going to read what you say
b) Despite a), you still have the right to voice your opinion (as long as you're polite ;) )

then that's really all that's needed to fix the problems :D

Just my potentially worthless 2c on the matter :)

[Sarge]

Again I 100% agree with Mr. Happy. I was about to add some thoughts but refrained from it. I neither have time for nor interest in it anymore.

Within just four years I witnessed and experienced too many things on this forum to disenchant (to put it politely) one permanently.

Anyway, I'd like to thank R. and the mods for all the work they have put in this place. It still is the best place to discuss Meat Loaf related topics. The issues I'm having with it aren't your fault.

And R., don't listen to people who announced that they opened their own (allegedly better) forum just a few days ago but have already returned to complain about this forum and try to force their rules on it again. :roll: You've been doing a great job and created a nice meeting place for Meat Loaf fans. Thank you.

[stretch37]

*removed as requested*

[stretch37]

*removed as requested*

[R.]

Listen folks, I started this thread because Paul asked for it. As of now, I have no intention to close or censor this thread in any way. I'm asking you nicely to keep this thread on topic. If you find something that offends you, either report that post or continue your off topic discussion with private messages. You might even learn something from that private conversation. Thank you.

[The Flying Mouse]

I no longer get the feeling that we are at the stage where we were a couple of weeks ago where there was a definate air of argumentativeness amongst members.

:twisted: There have been many many disagreements on this forum over the years, it's nothing new or recent.
It ebbs and flows with whatever is going on in Meat's career at the time.


We're not all going to have the same opinion and it would be a pretty boring world if we did as time goes on.

That it would be a boring world is one of the phrases i've heard over and over through the years. The problem is that nobody seems to want a boring world, and a world where people disagree leads to threads like these (we've had a fair few in our time).




but I feel that some people are percieving their opinions to be superior or perhaps that their opinion is the truth and those that don't agree are negative/blinded by love/insane and these are all things that have been thrown into discussions in recent months. I think that yes, people are entitled to have their opinion but when expressing it they ought to consider other people, their feelings and the fact that there are going to be some that won't share the same opinion. It doesn't mean that the opinion is less of a valid one.


Exactly :up:
Opinions are, by their very nature, are held by people who believe they are right.
Has anybody ever met anybody who believes their opinion is wrong? :wtf:
The problem is that a lot of people can be too rigid in their opinion, that they can't except how much pleasure somebody gets from a performance, or how somebody can see a flaw in something perfect.

Too often it's about proving other people wrong and shouting them down rather than posting what they believe.

THAT is a problem.





He is in a unique position in that it's him we are talking about

A very important point, and one I want to come back to when i'm trying to put my own thoughts down.



A few weeks ago, several of us got really upset and went somewhere else because of this (well, most of us stayed here, but temporarily posted elsewhere).

Let's be honest here.
A few people left here because someone posted (in all respect and honesty) something Meat took offence too. Meat over reacted at the time (IMHO) and left the forum.


I actually had my account cancelled, and about a week or two later, really began to miss the diversity this place has to offer.


And to clarify this point for the record, so there is no misunderstanding, it was you who requested your account be deleted.

As for diversity, I thought that was the problem you had with this forum.




Those of us who stood up for Meat's feelings of upsetness were told we were in the wrong and "shushed"....As well, those who felt Meat was in the wrong for being upset were "shushed". Generally by threads being closed. This has been the solution for years and has not worked. I agree its definitely time for something new.


Threads were locked because people were getting too hot under the collar by "defending Meat" (who, as you can see for yourself) is not a person who needs much protection.

Case in point, the discussion that opened up about the youtube vid.
How the hell "evil trimphing", the KKK, and 9/11 all come up in a discussion about a singers career is beyond me.

Threads are locked because they have nothing new to offer but a continuing round of arguments that will settle nothing and encourage bad feeling on the forum.

As for something new, I thought that's what you are doing with your forum.
We're something old, and it seems that people still want to hang out here.




The "new" thing has to be that, as part of the fan club rules, all comments must be respectful of Meat Loaf, and anyone who is not respectful is the one that should be individually "shushed", and, if they do not comply, should be banned.


We have a rule here concerning mutual respect, and that applies to Meat as much as anyone else.
If we feel that somebody has made a comment made out of a mean spirit rather than an honest critical remark, 9/10 times they are deleted, and often we will contact the poster. If the remark is offensive enough an infraction is issued.
None of this is mentioned on the forum. Just because you don't see things happen, doesn't mean that all is quiet behind the scenes.






"Respecting Meat & The NLE" should be regarded as:
Talking as if your in the same room as Meat Or A Band Member


Agreed.



Personal Opinion such as "i do not like this" is fine


Agreed, but not everybody is always happy to let somebody say that and let it go.



Personal opinion such as "this performance is crap" is strictly forbidden



See the rule concerning posting criticism in a respectful manner.




"Critique of Meat Loaf as a person strictly forbidden (and unwelcome)


But what consitutes being critical of Meat as a person?
Meat over reacts sometimes when he doesn't like things that are said.

Is that a fact or am I being unjustly critical?




Mods take those lovely "hidden nuggets" of criticism as actual criticism, rather than letting them slip under the rug?

As i've already said, we make every effort to delete any messages that we perceve to be posted with a hurtful intent rather than an honest one.

To do any better we are going to have to ask people to donate crystal balls :bleh:





There is an undercurrent of negativity that resides here.

Is that you missed about us? :bleh:




The "True Fans"
-Fans who go out of their way to treat Meat respectfully and act like a "fan" would towards an artist he/she adores.
-Generally are agreeable to Meat's ideas and form their thoughts towards him respectfully even if the thought is in disagreeance
-Feel bullied by "Honest Fans"


I know that the term "True Fan" offends a lot of people because it implies that you are not a fan of Meat if you are not 100% positive about him.

Hell, I find it offensive myself and I believe I fit (if I must be put into a box) into that category.
Apart from being bullied that is.





The "Honest Fans"
-Fans who feel that freedom of speech is the utmost important feature of these forums.
-Will speak their mind and word things how they feel in the moment without worry about how it will effect Meat.
-Tend to upset Meat at times, but also encourage some good conversation and laughter at other times
-Feel bullied by the "True Fans"



Without freedom of speech (posted in a respectful way) there is not much point of a forum.
And, as well documented in the past, it would be "boring".

Perhaps some of the things that are posted in a way it is perceived "not to care about Meats feelings" are actually posted with no thought that Meat will read the post? Therefore huting Meats feelings is not the posters intention?


I have no doubt whatsoever that both these "groups" feel dominated and bullied by each other.



Generally most people on here fit into those two categories, whether they have always been a part of one or the other is irrelevant.

But sometimes interesting.

I've seen a couple of people who would fit into the "True Fan" box be turned to the dark side of the "Honest Fan" because of the pressure put on people not to say anything slightly negative. People get sick of being told what to think.

I've never seen a "Honest Fan" join the ranks of the "True Fans". :bleh:



But I also respect those who speak their mind. Sometimes honesty is extremely refreshing.

Somebody posted an honest comment and you left the forum :wtf:




But in the end, we have now collectively upset Meat.

I still maintain that Meat has a kneejerk reaction when he thinks that someone is having a go at him, and when he calms down it's soon forgotton.
No different than a hell of a lot of other people on the planet.


Blame cannot be placed in any one place.


Although i've seen it happen on a grand scale.
Even after the last thread was locked there were snide remarks about "we know why Meat has left the forum".

And for the record, Meat has been back and posted since the last round of the usual.




And as a group, it is our responsibility to right the wrong we have done.

Sorry, but it's impossible for me to read this sentance and not imagine the suggestion of a human sacrifice following close behind.

Meat is over it.




But first, we need to decide how we can assure that this will NEVER happen again.


I disagree.
We need to decide how to deal with it better next time, because it's going to happen again as long as Meat reads this forum and people are speaking their minds.




First step in my mind is that this forum have a new set of rules. This fan forum is *not* just any fan forum. It is one in which the artists visit and regularly participate, and it has shown over the years that rules that rules that would normally apply to just *any* fan club do not suffice here.

Thoughts ?



You have a forum where you can make up as many rules and regulations as you want.

We've spend the last 10 years or so doing the whole trial and error thing and this is where we are.

It's not perfect, but we must be doing something right because people keep coming back, including Meat.

My main thought on that is why did Meat come and find us?
I cannot believe that he looked up his own fans so he could come and tell us what to think.
He might not always like what he reads, but what he gets here are honest (as much as we able to ensure their genuine nature) opinions and feedback.


Right, that's me done until i've at the very least had a cup of tea :coffee:

[stretch37]

I don't actually have a forum anywhere.....Nor do I want to have one.

Nor do I want to cause any upset. I wasn't pointing fingers at any individual here such as yourself Flying Mouse, nor was I directing comments about negativity at you. Actually, nothing I said was aimed at you.....

I like this place, and the people here, its a great place....run by great people with big hearts.

Having said that, there are issues and those are my ideas. They are just IDEAS, and maybe there is a better way that no one has come up with. I agree this place is doing something right, and more than just something, they are doing MOST things right, like 99%.

Sorry if I upset you Mouse, I wasn't directing anything at you. There is a problem, Meat's upset, I was looking for answers....not trying to point fingers at any individuals but rather at the problem itself.

Your reaction to me is a similar reaction to ones you often give Meat. Its like your treating me like a complaining SOB. well thats why Meat left....and that's one of the things I hate about things that get said to me. I was trying to help those who get attacked and upset, and now your just picking me apart for doing so........and the same cycle has started already...

[The Flying Mouse]

I don't think things are truly terrible here. I would say the vast vast majority of members here are positive virtually all of the time. Unfortunately, and i've said this many times I think it's the same people that bring topics and this site down time and time again. If they left, this place would be a heck of a lot better. But unfortunately there is this thing called freedom of speech.


:twisted: For the most part, things are not too bad here at all, but once in a while things flare up and get out of all perspective.

You yourself know this after unwittingly upsetting Meat and then having your parenting skills openly questioned by another member on the forum :nuts:




I think the real question has to be how far does freedom of speech stretch on a fan club site? In other words what level should be allowed. I think disrespectful, abusive comments should be kicked. When people use bad language towards the artist that's an immediate ban imo.


It's pretty much the way things are run already (although I don't think we are take the ban button very lightly).




I made a wrong musical observation for which I have subsequently said sorry.

As far as i'm concerned, nobody should have to apologise for an honest and respectfult stated opinion.



Instead what happened was a fiasco which was caused in my opinion not by my comment, but by a build up of feeling caused by the same few people over a long period of time.

I agree 100%



I'm saying freedom of speech, but respect for the artist as they know everything and we know nothing. And perhaps criticisms should be written as questions instead of people professing to know absolutely.

Problem is, when it comes to opinion there is no right or wrong, only person prespective.

[The Flying Mouse]

Nothing I can argue with :mrgreen:

:twisted: :up:

[The Flying Mouse]

I wasn't pointing fingers at any individual here such as yourself Flying Mouse, nor was I directing comments about negativity at you. Actually, nothing I said was aimed at you........






Having said that, Sorry if I upset you Mouse, I wasn't directing anything at you. There is a problem, Meat's upset, I was looking for answers....not trying to point fingers at any individuals but rather at the problem itself






Your reaction to me is a similar reaction to ones you often give Meat. Its like your treating me like a complaining SOB. well thats why Meat left....and that's one of the things I hate about things that get said to me. I was trying to help those who get attacked and upset, and now your just picking me apart for doing so........and the same cycle has started already...


:twisted: Two out of three ain't bad :facepalm:


Whenever have I treated Meat like a complaining SOB? :wtf:
I may have said (and I trully believe) that Meat is human and over reacts like a lot of other people on the planet. Now and then he'll explode over something that was never meant to cause offense, and when he's cooled down and realized he's over reacted he's done the right thing and apologised.

In fact, the post i'm refering to where I pointed this out, bluntly posted as it was, received a couple of complaints and it was edited.
That doesn't change the fact it was still proved to be acurate, and Meat has returned to the forum with no hard feelings.

[The Flying Mouse]

:twisted: And now (rather than just replying to people) some of my own thoughts........

My own feeling is that Meat's presence on the forum can sometimes be a double edged sword (the good outweighing the bad considerably, before anyone jumps on that comment).

There was an old naval rule (not sure wether it's still in force) that the captain was not allowed to dine in the wardroom with the other ships officers unless he was invited.
The reason for this is that the wardroom was a place of relaxation, and the captains presence could have a profound impact on the informal setting of the place.

That's what we have with Meat.

Once upon a time we were a forum of members who came here and shared their thoughts concerning all things Meat Loaf.
It was a very relaxed, friendly, and positive place. Certainly a place free of high running feelings and argument.

Then Meat came and sought us out.
We were pleased, amazed, and honoured that our musical hero came to visit us and talk to us.
Most of us still feel the same.

But his presence here comes at a price (a small one, I hasten to add, compared to the pleasure).
With Meat on the forums emotions run higher. Some are determined to have their say, others are determined to defend Meat against these people.
It leads to fighting.
A lot of fighting.

Meat himself is a passionate man, and when he is upset he reacts, sometimes over reacts, at what he sees as an attack upon himself.

Because for Meat, what is said here is very personal about him in a way few of us can begin to understand.

For instance, how would a baker feel if every loaf of bread he bakes is examined in detail and discussed?

But, as i've said before, I cannot believe that Meat came to see us to tell us what we can and can't think.
I believe that a lot of the people who are attracted to his type of music are not wired up that way.


I am personally disapointed that Paul has looked at the forum and has found us wanting.
I agree that Meat and his band shold have a place to come to where they are given the benefit of the doubt, and even a little lean way now and again.

But I would say to Paul, Meat, and the rest of the band, what you read on these forums is the honest feelings of a portion of the fanbase. It might not always be worded in the best way possible, but for the most nothing is posted with any intention to insult or hurt.

Never make the mistake that beause somebody says something critical you are not respected.

[AndyK]

Listen folks, I started this thread because Paul asked for it. As of now, I have no intention to close or censor this thread in any way. I'm asking you nicely to keep this thread on topic. If you find something that offends you, either report that post or continue your off topic discussion with private messages. You might even learn something from that private conversation. Thank you.


Just to add to Rainer's request above. Please try to remain open to others points of view and feelings in this thread when both reading and posting in it, and try not to take or post anything too personally. The only way to resolve things is to listen to others opinions and be able to discuss them fairly and honestly.

[duke knooby]

a little humility can go along way

[stretch37]

i think we have to make a choice......Either have Meat here with us and treat him and his band the way they request, or risk them not wanting to come here.

its been years of trial and error, and by no fault of his own Meat continues to be upset by his fan club....

[roomster]

:twisted: And now (rather than just replying to people) some of my own thoughts........

(removed most of the quote because of it's length)



Wise words and thoughts Mouse :-)

[Metal Loaf]

:twisted: And now (rather than just replying to people) some of my own thoughts........

I am personally disapointed that Paul has looked at the forum and has found us wanting.

But I would say to Paul, Meat, and the rest of the band, what you read on these forums is the honest feelings of a portion of the fanbase. It might not always be worded in the best way possible, but for the most nothing is posted with any intention to insult or hurt.

Never make the mistake that beause somebody says something critical you are not respected.


Hi All,

This is a powerful thread... Some great things happening here. XOXO!!!

Hey FLYING MOUSE... Waaaassssssuuuuppppp????

There's no need to talk to me about a PORTION of the fan base... I mentioned them in my very first post last week. I mentioned that I was thankful that there are some really beautiful people here and I meant it. I know a few of them personally, some great people hang here. MODS included.

Ok, you're personally disappointed with how I view this site... It sucks right? It sucks having someone be disappointed with something you put your blood, sweat and tears into... The BAKER'S BUNS analogy is perfect.

ALLREVVEDUP said:

A more recent example was where someone made a comment which (as far as I can tell), wasn't meant to be taken literally (quantity vs quality), and was in turn attacked. It wasn't an expectation or insult, it was just an idle musing. Considering that, I again don't think was entirely justified.

Sorry, IMO the more recent example is a direct insult.

Maybe I need for a person to finish their idle musing with "that's a joke". Well, unless you're ANDY... He posted a response yesterday, so dry, that I actually laughed out loud.

I don't understand how someone can make a comment which (AS FAR AS I CAN TELL) is a direct attack on my work ethic but I don't have the right to stand up for myself.

I don't understand why anyone would question my reaction.

How should I have responded?

Lastly, I'd like to thank "R." for starting this thread!


P

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Again I 100% agree with Mr. Happy. I was about to add some thoughts but refrained from it. [...]

Anyway, I'd like to thank R. and the mods for all the work they have put in this place. It still is the best place to discuss Meat Loaf related topics. The issues I'm having with it aren't your fault. [...]

You've been doing a great job and created a nice meeting place for Meat Loaf fans. Thank you.

+1

I also agree with Mr. Happy, and I would like to add my thanks as well. I think many things are being done "right" here.

I'd also like to say that I don't feel that Robb did anything wrong, nor does he need to apologize, nor do "we", collectively. I don't know why it bothers me, but it does, that some people seem to feel that they have no right to have an opinion or criticism because they "don't know anything about music, therefore, I was wrong". I'm sorry, but I don't need to be a chef to know that the food is too salty.

I like Mouse's analogy about the ship's captain; as I've said before (and I won't say any more on the matter after this), there is an atmosphere on this board that doesn't exist on other forums (of other artists) of which I am a member. Obviously, I'm still here, so there must be something I like about it (and there are some great people here).

I think the reason we are all here is because we enjoy Meat's work to some extent, but I think what people need to respect (in all directions) is that there are varying levels of "fandom" (for want of a better word- commitment, maybe?), and some people are more emotionally invested in it than others, and that is perfectly fine. Just because some may be less passionate does not make them "haters".

i think we have to make a choice......Either have Meat here with us and treat him and his band the way they request, or risk them not wanting to come here.

its been years of trial and error, and by no fault of his own Meat continues to be upset by his fan club....

I really want to comment on this, and I hope I can express my feelings in the manner which they are intended. So, I guess I am going to just use general terms.

If one wishes to be treated with respect, one treats others with respect. Fear (of retribution) and respect are not the same thing. An attitude of "play my way, or I take my ball and leave" is not, IMO, respectful.

We cannot control how others treat us, or what they say to us. We can, however, control how we respond. I agree with Mouse that IMO, Meat does overreact on occasion, and that "fault" does not lie with us.

[Mr. Happy]

A more recent example was where someone made a comment which (as far as I can tell), wasn't meant to be taken literally (quantity vs quality), and was in turn attacked. It wasn't an expectation or insult, it was just an idle musing. Considering that, I again don't think was entirely justified.

Sorry, IMO the more recent example is a direct insult.

Maybe I need for a person to finish their idle musing with "that's a joke". Well, unless you're ANDY... He posted a response yesterday, so dry, that I actually laughed out loud.

I don't understand how someone can make a comment which (AS FAR AS I CAN TELL) is a direct attack on my work ethic but I don't have the right to stand up for myself.

I don't understand why anyone would question my reaction.

How should I have responded?

Lastly, I'd like to thank "R." for starting this thread!


P

Actually, I said that, not Allrevvedup :D

I never said you don't have the right to stand up for yourself, and that wasn't even necessarily directed specifically at you. I didn't see that comment as challenging your work ethic, as you put it. I more saw it as one of those circumstances where the intent of the message gets lost because it's difficult to convey properly through a text format. It wasn't meant to be a scathing insult, more...an idle musing :D We're all fans here (even if some of us go about it in different ways to others), and I don't think anyone here would insult your work ethic just because of it. Which is why it threw me a little when it was torn to shreds the way it was.

I don't know, maybe I'm trying too hard to see the good in people and I'm ignoring the facts because of it. That was just my interpretation of it, and apparently I can't even go back to review that anymore :evil: My apologies if I've caused more drama with that line than I should have :oops:

[allrevvedup]

Actually, I said that, not Allrevvedup :D



I had to go back through my previous posts to see if I'd actually used the phrase Idle musings...i knew that didn't sound like something i'd say:D

[Mr. Happy]

I had to go back through my previous posts to see if I'd actually used the phrase Idle musings...i knew that didn't sound like something i'd say:D

To be honest, it's not something I'd normally say either, I just didn't know how else to put it :lol:

[Mr. Happy]

Anyway, all I'm saying that everyone is so quick to jump down everyone else's throat. Can't we all just chill out and respect each other?

Is it so hard to see,
That we're all the same machine,
Don't we all live and die,
Under the same Blue Sky?

[CarylB]

There's no need to talk to me about a PORTION of the fan base... I mentioned them in my very first post last week. I mentioned that I was thankful that there are some really beautiful people here and I meant it. I know a few of them personally, some great people hang here. MODS included.

I think you have made that clear more than once Paul :-)

Ok, you're personally disappointed with how I view this site... It sucks right? It sucks having someone be disappointed with something you put your blood, sweat and tears into... The BAKER'S BUNS analogy is perfect.

Exactly .. just as the apple pie video during the making of HCTB was perfect too ;) You, like Meat, put so much effort and creativity into the work, to me it deserves respect, and some sensitivity when commenting on it.

Sorry, IMO the more recent example is a direct insult. ..... I don't understand how someone can make a comment which (AS FAR AS I CAN TELL) is a direct attack on my work ethic but I don't have the right to stand up for myself.

I don't understand why anyone would question my reaction.

How should I have responded?

You responded perfectly in my view, and with skill and restraint

I'm left with two thoughts. I find it bizarre that anyone should think it strange that fans of a performer would want a fan site to be wholly positive. And if "criticism" is indeed "constructive", surely the whole point about "constructive criticism" is that it is NOT negative, but positive .. so if people were actually giving their comments, "criticism", opinions etc on Meat's work constructively, (which would include avoiding brief throw-away lines which are likely to sound insulting to those they are aimed at, if one thought before one posted) then the site would be 100% positive anyway.

I can't remember now exactly what I've read to leave me with this impression, but I sensed a questioning of Matt's (I think) suggestion that criticism of Meat on a personal level should be avoided. My view is that Meat's work is up for comment; his work is why we all come here. But criticising his character, his motives, his values, his beliefs enters a whole new field .. one where there is not unlimited freedom of speech without legal constraints, and one which is best not undertaken on a public fan forum. Criticise anyone's core values and they are likely to feel insulted. There's a private message facility if one wants to question these.

Caryl

[AndyK]

Well, unless you're ANDY... He posted a response yesterday, so dry, that I actually laughed out loud.

Humour is just one of the services I provide ;-)

Seriously though, I think we all have to remember that Meat's music is incredibly passionate, just like the man himself. That passion is what attracts us to the music and the fans of the music and the man are also all incredibly passionate. Like it or not we're all different but we're also all very similar, just with different viewpoints.

The written word is so much different to the spoken word and much more care has to be taken with it, as you lose the context, the inflection and the facial expression with a chunk of text.

Write your post, stop, think, read it again, think a bit more, edit as appropriate and then press submit. It shouldn't be difficult, yet somehow it is ...

[CarylB]

Seriously though, I think we all have to remember that Meat's music is incredibly passionate, just like the man himself. That passion is what attracts us to the music and the fans of the music and the man are also all incredibly passionate.

Absolutely .. and that passion in Meat isn't assumed, it's genuine and comes from inside, so it's hardly surprising he's sensitive about comments. Paul's passionate about what he does; dismiss the work of passionate people and they feel it.

The written word is so much different to the spoken word and much more care has to be taken with it, as you lose the context, the inflection and the facial expression with a chunk of text.

Written feedback is the most difficult of all forms of feedback. You get no sense of how the person is reading and hearing it, so putting yourself in their shoes as far as you can, and thinking about how they may feel is so important.

Write your post, stop, think, read it again, think a bit more, edit as appropriate and then press submit. It shouldn't be difficult, yet somehow it is ...

Takes time and thought

Caryl

[renegadeangel]

Listen folks, I started this thread because Paul asked for it. As of now, I have no intention to close or censor this thread in any way. I'm asking you nicely to keep this thread on topic. If you find something that offends you, either report that post or continue your off topic discussion with private messages. You might even learn something from that private conversation. Thank you.


That hits it on the head. Everyone here is here to offer an opinion. Once personal opinions are targeted for not being perhaps appropriate, or not in blunt terms not following the herd mentality, all you have is Chinese authoritism. Is that what is really being suggested here? I hope not.

[Vickip]

Write your post, stop, think, read it again, think a bit more, edit as appropriate and then press submit. It shouldn't be difficult, yet somehow it is ...

:up:

[The Flying Mouse]

Hey FLYING MOUSE... Waaaassssssuuuuppppp????

There's no need to talk to me about a PORTION of the fan base... I mentioned them in my very first post last week.

:twisted: Sup dude :metal:

When I said a portion of the fan base, I actually meant the members here as a portion of the wider fan base (people who are not online or just don't visit here), rather than a portion of the members here :wink:
We've got a good size membership I like to think, but we still only represent a small percentage of the concert going and album buying public.



I mentioned that I was thankful that there are some really beautiful people here and I meant it. I know a few of them personally, some great people hang here. MODS included.


The cheque's in the post :mrgreen:



Ok, you're personally disappointed with how I view this site... It sucks right? It sucks having someone be disappointed with something you put your blood, sweat and tears into...

Oh yeah, make no mistake about it, it is disappointing when you do the best job you can and don't seem to be achieving what you want or people think you are failing (that's what this thread is about, right? :lol: ).
All you can do is take heart, keep doing your best, and accept you cannot please all the people all the time :shrug:


The way I would describe the position of mlukfc is almost like a frontier town where very different trains of thought collide.
There are some places on the net that are positive/sugar coated/sycophantic (delete according to your particular beliefs) and they are what they are and I have no problem with that.

I can't actually say there are places i'm aware of that are more pro to being critical toward Meat, so i'm getting a bit stuck here :bleh: , but the people of those places (if they exist, and they don't) and the people of the "nice" places all jump on their horses, ride into town, and here is where it all gets fought out.

So we've got a forum of outlaws, the staff are the law, and then Meat rides in to town, and who the hell is he classed as in our cast of characters?
God?
I've not seen all his films, but i'm pretty damn sure John Wayne never had to deal with shit like that :faint:

Sufficed to say, it's not an easy position to be in.



The BAKER'S BUNS analogy is perfect.


Thanks, I like that one myself, and it's really how I see the situation.
For some reason it seems that entertainers are not supposed to have feelings like other people when it comes to their work.

Everything discussed on this forum is very personal to Meat, and to an extent also very personal to you wherever your work is discussed.

I don't believe anyone on this forum has/will ever be in the position you and Meat are in, and so won't be able to fully understand.

It's not a critique of a vocal when Meat reads it, it's a critique of HIS vocal. It's not a critique of guitar work or production, it's a critique of YOUR guitar work or production.

That's got to be an interesting (and not always nice) position to be in.

Out of interest, have you ever had such close contact with the fans at any other time during your career?




Just because some may be less passionate does not make them "haters".


:up:




I'd add two words to this...............


We cannot control how others treat us, or what they say to us. We can, however, control how we respond. I agree with Mouse that IMO, Meat does overreact on occasion, and that "fault" does not always lie 100%with us.

Meat has been known to blow his top on the forum, but sometimes it's been because something has been harsh or unfair. Other times Meat has taken offence to something someone has said in all honesty with no intention to offend and has over reacted.

Fault can't be put just on the fans or just on Meat.
It's a little 50/50 at times, especially when (again) you consider Meats perspective to what's being said.

Humour is just one of the services I provide ;-)


Since when? :shock: :p :mrgreen:

[Wario]

i think the best way to keep everyone positive is bake chicken parm and dance to meat's loaf's hit song "masculine" :)

seriously, lets get the MLUKFC back to the point when Fire Ball would interact with us on a weekly basis.

Party is still going on!

[melon]

i think the best way to keep everyone positive is bake chicken parm


mmmmm chicken parmy........ yuuuuuum.......

[allrevvedup]

Fault can't be put just on the fans or just on Meat.
It's a little 50/50 at times, especially when (again) you consider Meats perspective to what's being said.



I agree. I think at some stage, in their time here, every person (me included) has posted something that they've later regretted (No, it won't be this post for me:D)

If there is more respect for opinion then it makes our (mods) job a lot easier and hey we all want that right?!

It's been good to have Mr Crook posting here, some interesting information as well in relation to the production side of things.

[stretch37]

true. fault can't just be placed on the fans or Meat. all of us together make up the atmosphere at the fan club and we are bound to argue at times....to make use of an overused cliche, 'it takes two to tango'.

I still think though that Meat can only do so much, and we as fans will have to decide what we can do to make this place feel more like family, and part of the Meat camp. Or we may risk losing the privilege of Meat & Paul's presence.

[Monstro]

we as fans will have to decide what we can do to make this place feel more like family

Ok, been thinking about my post here for a few days and mentally re-written it so many times it's a joke so I'm just gonna say what this site means to me and how it's changed my life .(that is not an overstatement).

I first joined as a lurker, used it for info only but gradually got drawn into posting and never looked back. I can see what Neil means when he said how he felt about Paul's criticism of the site because I'll defend this place to the hilt, it's given me so much more than a place to gather Meat info. I can recite a virtually endless list of names of people I've met off here and can honestly say that I've made very close friends here (even though I've met Smoggies and Mackems). I've looked back over my pics of meet ups and events over the last few years and god they've made me smile, remember rock for three days in May? SamCat's 40th birthday at the Ibis after a concert? The karaoke night to replace a cancelled Meat gig? Dozens of us at Bath and getting absolutely bloody soaked? The Montana mob at the RAH? Meat's charity football at St James' Park? And the list goes on, I really believe that you'll get out of this place exactly what you put into it.

Changed my life? hell yes. I met my partner here in the days that the chatroom was popular, as a result of us getting together check out this thread for who was known as the forum baby http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12334&highlight=arrival (Jasmine got gifts from all over the world, no joke, we got parcels and envelopes from nigh on every continent) and if I ever pull my finger out and sort it I'll be heading for the third site wedding, yes the third, this place really has changed peoples lives. For me it seems that the growth of facebook has somewhat killed the community side of this site which is sad, seems like we've forgotten that we're all here for the same reason and despite our differences are more than capable of interacting in an acceptable manner.

And now the bit that'll cause uproar, I joined for the info but got drawn into the community, I truly appreciate the fact that Meat and now Paul post here (brilliant Production thread by Paul) but I would be hurt more if my friends didn't post here anymore as over the years I've seen a few leave and not come back, took me a while to appreciate that this site was set up as a site run by the fans for the fans and whilst it's one hell of a bonus Meat posting here I really don't think it's the be all and end all and by saying that it is is detracting from what this site has to offer and the quality of the forum members here.

[Sue K]

Ok, been thinking about my post here for a few days and mentally re-written it so many times it's a joke so I'm just gonna say what this site means to me and how it's changed my life .(that is not an overstatement).

I first joined as a lurker, used it for info only but gradually got drawn into posting and never looked back. I can see what Neil means when he said how he felt about Paul's criticism of the site because I'll defend this place to the hilt, it's given me so much more than a place to gather Meat info. I can recite a virtually endless list of names of people I've met off here and can honestly say that I've made very close friends here (even though I've met Smoggies and Mackems). I've looked back over my pics of meet ups and events over the last few years and god they've made me smile, remember rock for three days in May? SamCat's 40th birthday at the Ibis after a concert? The karaoke night to replace a cancelled Meat gig? Dozens of us at Bath and getting absolutely bloody soaked? The Montana mob at the RAH? Meat's charity football at St James' Park? And the list goes on, I really believe that you'll get out of this place exactly what you put into it.

Changed my life? hell yes. I met my partner here in the days that the chatroom was popular, as a result of us getting together check out this thread for who was known as the forum baby http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12334&highlight=arrival (Jasmine got gifts from all over the world, no joke, we got parcels and envelopes from nigh on every continent) and if I ever pull my finger out and sort it I'll be heading for the third site wedding, yes the third, this place really has changed peoples lives. For me it seems that the growth of facebook has somewhat killed the community side of this site which is sad, seems like we've forgotten that we're all here for the same reason and despite our differences are more than capable of interacting in an acceptable manner.

And now the bit that'll cause uproar, I joined for the info but got drawn into the community, I truly appreciate the fact that Meat and now Paul post here (brilliant Production thread by Paul) but I would be hurt more if my friends didn't post here anymore as over the years I've seen a few leave and not come back, took me a while to appreciate that this site was set up as a site run by the fans for the fans and whilst it's one hell of a bonus Meat posting here I really don't think it's the be all and end all and by saying that it is is detracting from what this site has to offer and the quality of the forum members here.

What a nice post, Michael ... xo

[CarylB]

And now the bit that'll cause uproar, ...

I don't see why :-) I agree with Sue, a lovely post :D You've said how you feel and expressed it in a way that even if I don't feel 100% the same I can relate to what you say, and don't see how it could cause any offence or upset. To value and put cherished friendships forged over the years above all else is real and right.

I don't see Meat and Paul posting here as being a be all and end all either. I didn't, nor would I leave if they were to stop posting. I too see it as a bonus; something rather special which many fan sites don't have, and which I think it would be a shame to lose if all it takes is for everyone to think about their feelings when posting .. and post with as much care as we should when posting to anyone, or about anyone's efforts.

I agree, Paul's thread is a cracker .. and whilst some of it flies over my head without ruffling my parting ;) mostly I find it a fascinating insight into what they put into the disc I eventually get to hold in my hand, and into the shows that delight me :-)

Caryl

[Sebastian.]

Ok, been thinking about my post here for a few days and mentally re-written it so many times it's a joke so I'm just gonna say what this site means to me and how it's changed my life .(that is not an overstatement).

I first joined as a lurker, used it for info only but gradually got drawn into posting and never looked back. I can see what Neil means when he said how he felt about Paul's criticism of the site because I'll defend this place to the hilt, it's given me so much more than a place to gather Meat info. I can recite a virtually endless list of names of people I've met off here and can honestly say that I've made very close friends here (even though I've met Smoggies and Mackems). I've looked back over my pics of meet ups and events over the last few years and god they've made me smile, remember rock for three days in May? SamCat's 40th birthday at the Ibis after a concert? The karaoke night to replace a cancelled Meat gig? Dozens of us at Bath and getting absolutely bloody soaked? The Montana mob at the RAH? Meat's charity football at St James' Park? And the list goes on, I really believe that you'll get out of this place exactly what you put into it.

Changed my life? hell yes. I met my partner here in the days that the chatroom was popular, as a result of us getting together check out this thread for who was known as the forum baby http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12334&highlight=arrival (Jasmine got gifts from all over the world, no joke, we got parcels and envelopes from nigh on every continent) and if I ever pull my finger out and sort it I'll be heading for the third site wedding, yes the third, this place really has changed peoples lives. For me it seems that the growth of facebook has somewhat killed the community side of this site which is sad, seems like we've forgotten that we're all here for the same reason and despite our differences are more than capable of interacting in an acceptable manner.

And now the bit that'll cause uproar, I joined for the info but got drawn into the community, I truly appreciate the fact that Meat and now Paul post here (brilliant Production thread by Paul) but I would be hurt more if my friends didn't post here anymore as over the years I've seen a few leave and not come back, took me a while to appreciate that this site was set up as a site run by the fans for the fans and whilst it's one hell of a bonus Meat posting here I really don't think it's the be all and end all and by saying that it is is detracting from what this site has to offer and the quality of the forum members here.

Best post in here. I can't even remember joining here, but apparently I did! It was months before I finally posted, and I wasn't even aware Meat posted on here!

I've read some brilliant things on here, and found out stuff about Meat I would never have known.
I'm gone from being a nervous poster to being in the middle of one of those meet-ups. I remember sitting at Manchester Airport for my London flight bricking myself for some reason. But meeting everyone at the Pub and laughing non-stop for 5 hours, was just brilliant. Of course meeting Meat was amazing but it would have been nothing if I had gone on my own. I hope we have another one for the tour this year!

I love that Meat posts here as well (when he's not yelling at us!). I love that Paul's come on as well. I hope we won't lose hem and I'm sure we won't. I hope Meat see's this thread and sees just how much we love and respect him. This forum gives us a connection to the band that other fans don't get. But as Michael said I care a lot about some of the members as well as Meat.

I'm probably one of the more positive members when it comes to Meat's work, saying that I can appreciate the other opinions some may have. Though when it comes to some Members slagging Meat off, and being unfair it's upsetting, good work to the Mods who got onto that quickly tonight. ;) Didn't even need to report said post.

Meat's music got me through some very hard times. I became a huge fan of his after his 2010 in Manchester concert. It was the first time I heard Rock 'n' Roll dreams. From that point on I was convinced that his music was for me. He and the band ble wme away. After a couple of months of building my colllection, I found Wario on YouTube, then his site then he MLUKFC. It's a brilliant community and as I mentioned putting names to faces makes it even more personal to me. I like Michael will jump to deffend his community, for every "negative comment" there is about 100 positive.

I hope Meat does come on here soon. I hope Paul sticks around as well, and maybe if we're really lucky the rest of the band may come on! With Meat's upcoming tour I want to hear his and the band thoughts on the show like with the HCTB tour. It's a brilliant thing to have and I'm sure we won't lose it.


So I'll gues I'll sum up by saying. Meat, Paul, and the band: We love you no matter what! We love your work, I'm sure we all have multiple copies of your work! I have four copies of HIAH, 1 digital and 3 hard and I'm debating whether to get a US one! Not to mention the other albums, In terms of the music I play on my iPod, it's 99.5% you guys. All the time. I'll be sure to be at a minimum of 3 concerts WHEN you come back to the UK. Hopefully I'll get to meet you all as well! I'm sure there will be a group of MLUK'ers front and center at at least one of the concerts (I'll do a banner! :-P)

Agaiin this is a brilliant community. I'm sure I could never leave it! The Oxford St. Meet up will be something I'll never forget and I hope many more memories of the sort are out there on the future!

:cool:

[allrevvedup]

This'll be the last thing I do before going to sleep while listening to the guide tracks for my new album(yeah, yeah, I know the obvious joke is my music makes people unconcious!:D)

Anyway I've read through this thread and to more specific read through Monstro's post and some nerves were hit.

I've been here for basically 9 years and I can safely say that it really took me three years to start properly posting here (It's all Zina's fault!)

I remember the chat room, getting to know people that i'm close, and in some cases incredibly close, to today. I also remember the fact that it took me 4 years to finally meet up with you mad lot only to pick a show that was cancelled !

When it comes to posting, i hope that i'm considered to be reasonably level headed. I believe R, Andy and the rest of the mods think so or I wouldn't have been asked to moderate in the first place.

With that moderation comes the really tough task, staying somewhere in the middle. I understand how frustrating it is when you read some posts you disagree because believe me us mods are no different.

We all have differing opinions and we all have ways of expressing them. I'll get just as frustrated at someone who borders on, or actually reaches, the level of insulting posts as well as posts that are so sugar coated that it'd stop a diabetic in their tracks.

So from those that want to make themselves known by bucking the trend and going out of their way to say an average performance was the worst thing to have ever been produced to those that take that same average performance was the best thing since sliced bread, it can be hard to digest.

I don't want there to be 'camps' as such, I'd rather have respect for opinion because, as much of a shock as it might be, performances, albums, singles, dvds etc are not always going to be at the highest level. That doesn't mean that it has to be anyone's fault, it's just life. You try and make the next day better than this one.

I suppose what i'm searching for is some common ground. Sometimes you say something is brilliant and sometimes it's crap. Mouse has said that some people post not thinking that members of the NLE or Meat himself will read it, but the way i'd look at it is that what you post will be seen by people be it fans or the artist themselves. So be true to yourself in your posts, but be respectful as there is nothing worse than being stomped on. I include artists and fans in that last statement.

I've seen other forums where worthy opinions were attacked because they weren't 100% in praise of the artist and it felt like vultures were circling. I don't want to have to moderate in a place like that.

When you read a post and are considering a reply, mentally take a step back, re-read it and see if you still feel the same way.

i bid you all a goodnight...

[suzieq]

I think this thread was how to fix things....but right now I don't see many suggestions "HOW" to do that. I've read about what this site means to other people and yada, yada, but I don't know if anyone has come up with a solid solution of how to fix and turn around the site.

1st thing is that moderation needs to acknowledge that there is a problem to begin with.
2nd thing is to post an update somewhere of what is being done to correct the problems they are working on.
3rd thing is that moderation should open their minds a little bit and see that this place can be more fruitful if we keep the band members and MEAT happy!

Some of the mods here are part of the fibres of the site, so if anyone should know how MEAT is going to react to something, WHY don't you moderate the posts that are going to piss him off? Some mods can probably speak candidly with him and flat out ask him? What would you like to see changed? How can we do a better job for YOU for a site that bears YOUR name so we don't lose you as a member?

When Meat is happy and he's on forum, it is sure delight. He is informative, fun, and answers questions. He may respond to some positive posts. His posts that he can answer....like clearing up the Bat III era....has been just as informative as Paul's Production thread. He was open and honest and answered a lot about that time period we wouldn't otherwise know. When Meat is happy to come to forum then has to read through hurtful things, he passionately defends himself. I believe rightly so. I think NO less of him for doing so and in which manner he does it. However, over the last, what 3 years, I think MEAT has changed. He was given a lot of static by fans because he used to use explicit language in his posts upon his defense. HE doesn't do that anymore. He's said it in a respectful way...and guess what, HE'S still getting static.

So no you cannot please all members all the time. But I think you can please band members and Meat pretty easy. Why not edit the posts that can be more Meat/band member friendly? Why not delete posts that leave room for reading between the lines (which we aren't supposed to do)? Maybe doing this enough, the offenders will either lose interest in flaming OR adapt to the existing rules of posting with respect?

RE: Meat posting vs. friends. Meat has been there for me when my friends couldn't be. When I'm mentally alone going through stuff. I'd much rather hear from the man who speaks to me in song, than to keyboard babysit one of my internet friends. Perhaps some of the mod team are too attached to their friends to moderate according to what some members want. Some members want Meat to stop by and post when he can. Some members want band members to feel comfortable here and post when time permits for them. It's very interesting when they do. We get first hand knowledge instead of speculation and inaccuracies.

I can't blame Meat for wanting to leave here for good. I do hope an understanding can be met so he doesn't leave. However, it starts from the top and trickles down. So, I'll leave you to it and fix it.

[Vickip]

I think this thread was how to fix things....but right now I don't see many suggestions "HOW" to do that. I've read about what this site means to other people and yada, yada, but I don't know if anyone has come up with a solid solution of how to fix and turn around the site.

1st thing is that moderation needs to acknowledge that there is a problem to begin with.
2nd thing is to post an update somewhere of what is being done to correct the problems they are working on.
3rd thing is that moderation should open their minds a little bit and see that this place can be more fruitful if we keep the band members and MEAT happy!

Some of the mods here are part of the fibres of the site, so if anyone should know how MEAT is going to react to something, WHY don't you moderate the posts that are going to piss him off? Some mods can probably speak candidly with him and flat out ask him? What would you like to see changed? How can we do a better job for YOU for a site that bears YOUR name so we don't lose you as a member?

When Meat is happy and he's on forum, it is sure delight. He is informative, fun, and answers questions. He may respond to some positive posts. His posts that he can answer....like clearing up the Bat III era....has been just as informative as Paul's Production thread. He was open and honest and answered a lot about that time period we wouldn't otherwise know. When Meat is happy to come to forum then has to read through hurtful things, he passionately defends himself. I believe rightly so. I think NO less of him for doing so and in which manner he does it. However, over the last, what 3 years, I think MEAT has changed. He was given a lot of static by fans because he used to use explicit language in his posts upon his defense. HE doesn't do that anymore. He's said it in a respectful way...and guess what, HE'S still getting static.

So no you cannot please all members all the time. But I think you can please band members and Meat pretty easy. Why not edit the posts that can be more Meat/band member friendly? Why not delete posts that leave room for reading between the lines (which we aren't supposed to do)? Maybe doing this enough, the offenders will either lose interest in flaming OR adapt to the existing rules of posting with respect?

RE: Meat posting vs. friends. Meat has been there for me when my friends couldn't be. When I'm mentally alone going through stuff. I'd much rather hear from the man who speaks to me in song, than to keyboard babysit one of my internet friends. Perhaps some of the mod team are too attached to their friends to moderate according to what some members want. Some members want Meat to stop by and post when he can. Some members want band members to feel comfortable here and post when time permits for them. It's very interesting when they do. We get first hand knowledge instead of speculation and inaccuracies.

I can't blame Meat for wanting to leave here for good. I do hope an understanding can be met so he doesn't leave. However, it starts from the top and trickles down. So, I'll leave you to it and fix it.

Very well said Suzie.

[Monstro]

I think this thread was how to fix things....but right now I don't see many suggestions "HOW" to do that. I've read about what this site means to other people and yada, yada, but I don't know if anyone has come up with a solid solution of how to fix and turn around the site.



If you read through the posts you'll see that the majority appreciate this site and whilst there may be "issues" they can be overcome with a little bit of understanding towards others thoughts and opinions without disregarding them as yada yada.

And in my opinion this site doesn't need "turning around", it needs the members to show more respect and understanding to EVERYONE'S feelings/thoughts/opinions/posts before they post their own.

[suzieq]

And in my opinion this site doesn't need "turning around"

So, this is one mod who doesn't see that anything is wrong here.

Back to square one then.

It won't get fixed this way. :nope:

PS Yada, yada clarification.....did not mean I didn't read....what it does mean, is that there is way too much to rehash what's been said previous. I want to move forward and make the site better. It may never be better....this may be the best we get and without Meat around.

[stretch37]

I don't want to take away from the wonderful experiences everyone has had on here as a group. Indeed, I envy all of you who have actually spent time together at shows or had some real-life experiences together :)

This is a place full of wonderful fans, and colorful personalities. I love it.

However, that does not solve our problem.

What are we, as a group, willing to change in order to keep Meat feeling comfortable here?

[suzieq]

However, that does not solve our problem.

What are we, as a group, willing to change in order to keep Meat feeling comfortable here?

That's exactly what I'm trying to pitch a few posts up.

[Monstro]

If you read through the posts you'll see that the majority appreciate this site and whilst there may be "issues" they can be overcome with a little bit of understanding towards others thoughts and opinions without disregarding them as yada yada.

And in my opinion this site doesn't need "turning around", it needs the members to show more respect and understanding to EVERYONE'S feelings/thoughts/opinions/posts before they post their own.

So, this is one mod who doesn't see that anything is wrong here.

Back to square one then.

It won't get fixed this way. :nope:

PS Yada, yada clarification.....did not mean I didn't read....what it does mean, is that there is way too much to rehash what's been said previous. I want to move forward and make the site better. It may never be better....this may be the best we get and without Meat around.

Please read my post again, at no point did I say there was nothing wrong, I did say that there may be issues here and did in fact suggest a way that these could be overcome even though you think we're back to square one.

[suzieq]

And in my opinion this site doesn't need "turning around",

Meat's not going to change and neither are the members personalities. It's a moderation problem to meld the two together. So the site DOES need to be turned around. Otherwise you guys and gals are babysitters with no control.

[suzieq]

, it needs the members to show more respect and understanding to EVERYONE'S feelings/thoughts/opinions/posts before they post their own.

Hypothetical: suppose this NEVER happens (which hasn't in the years of my membership). What will moderation DO?

[suzieq]

Did we lose site of the problem?

Isn't the problem that Meat is upset and he won't come back?

Isn't the issue to be fixed that we want him to come back?

It isn't about in fighting among members. It's about Meat coming back here isn't it????

[Monstro]

I don't want to take away from the wonderful experiences everyone has had on here as a group. Indeed, I envy all of you who have actually spent time together at shows or had some real-life experiences together :)

That's the beauty of this community, we've all got stories to tell of our wonderful experiences

This is a place full of wonderful fans, and colorful personalities. I love it.

So if you love it what's the problem?

However, that does not solve our problem.

You know, I'm probably gonna get shot at for this but it's yours and some others problem, not everyone's.

[QUOTE=stretch37;568363What are we, as a group, willing to change in order to keep Meat feeling comfortable here?[/QUOTE]

There are issues, I agree that some of the posts on the site can be seen as being somewhat rude and argumentative (those that escape the mods) but most do express the posters feelings in an entirely appropriate and positive way.

[stretch37]

So if you love it what's the problem?


....i get bullied...so does my idol...


As far as the other part goes, I'm not shooting you down. I am one of the most vocal so of course its going to look like theres only a few of us who have the problem.

*but i can assure you that is not the case. there are at least a dozen including Meat and Paul*

..perhaps a poll would help....ffs :?

[Paul Richardson]

... seems like we've forgotten that we're all here for the same reason and despite our differences are more than capable of interacting in an acceptable manner.

And now the bit that'll cause uproar ... whilst it's one hell of a bonus Meat posting here I really don't think it's the be all and end all and by saying that it is is detracting from what this site has to offer and the quality of the forum members here.

Great post.

Having just reread the Leno thread (where I think all this started ... ) it appears to me (at least) that Meat's reaction is disproportionate to what was said ...

The timing issue, leaving aside whether he was actually in or out of time, is hardly important - its not the be all and end all of the performance - and we all know Meat sings everything in his own 'time' anyway.

The fact the issue was raised, and the 'offence' was 'caused', by someone who, on the evidence of posts here and on YouTube, couldn't be more positive towards Meat Loaf, I think shows how over sensitive Meat can be ...

So if we are saying that in order to keep Meat here, similar views and opinions need to be edited or deleted by the Mods (as is suggested above), then I suspect all we will end up with are 'approved' views and opinions, and the site will cease to be a forum in the true sense of the word ...

Surely the purpose of moderation (and I'm sure the Mods will correct me here if I'm wrong) is not to moderate the 'opinions' of posts, but to moderate the 'tone' of posts. A case of not what you say, but how you say it ?

While its sad that Meat may not post here again, (but it wouldn't be the first time that he has said this, only to reconsider), this is surely a site primarily for the fans (of all opinions, or 'camps' if we have to use a less than helpful term ... ) and not necessarily for the artist.

I don't think this site needs fixing at all ... and if it does need fixing then the 'solution' - (censorship ?) - may be worse than the 'problem'.

[kkzag]

I've read this entire thread. I will think before I post. I will read my post, think again...before I send.

I don't post often, usually I post my experiences at tour time of shows I have attended. I say "experiences" because I am not very good at writing a review...but loved sharing one of many experiences from a particular show. For Example when Meat saved my A** from getting kicked out of AMT for DANCING!!. That led to discussions and opinions of Standing/Sitting at a show, and I respected everyone's opinion, despite whether or not I agreed with it.

Now as far as being bullied, I have not experienced that yet but may after my suggestion of how to fix things....

Meat NEEDS an Official Fan Page....like we had on .net
I am by no means putting THIS fan page down...nor suggesting it has to be a "US" site, but I miss the .net paid membership (less trolls) member advantages and up to date tour info. We've lost THAT. Perhaps MLUK could be "it". I honestly believe Meat Loaf fans all have the common bond of truly "relating" to his music & dedication as if we know him personally...and I know some do.

I suppose my suggestion for improvement ultimately is to turn THIS into a paid membership Official fan site... OR having threads and posting ability on the existing Meatloaf.net....

Again, no offense to THIS site whatsoever...just voicing my opinion of what I would like to see in a fan club!!

Looking forward to this summer's JERSEY show's, and hopefully sharing my experiences again too! :)

Kar

[Paul Richardson]

...i get bullied...

Do you have examples ? However you do seem to be quoted in a lot of responses from Mods of late. As you say you are being quite vocal, so perhaps its to be expected (quoted not bullied...), especially as you appear to have strong views about how the site is ran ... ?

[melon]

I've read this entire thread. I will think before I post. I will read my post, think again...before I send.


And this is something that I can make sure I do.

Folkes, you can sit here and point fingers at everyone else, or everything else. You can talk about it until you're black and blue. But in the end, it boils down to one thing, actually person. You. You are in control of your thoughts. You are in control of your actions. You can do your bit. I've learnt this very thing in the last year or so myself, and I haven't done it the easy way.

If you all want to "fix" MLUKFC, look at yourselves and what you say/do first, then worry about everyone else. Don't play the blame game.

[JennaG]

And this is something that I can make sure I do.

Folkes, you can sit here and point fingers at everyone else, or everything else. You can talk about it until you're black and blue. But in the end, it boils down to one thing, actually person. You. You are in control of your thoughts. You are in control of your actions. You can do your bit. I've learnt this very thing in the last year or so myself, and I haven't done it the easy way.

If you all want to "fix" MLUKFC, look at yourselves and what you say/do first, then worry about everyone else. Don't play the blame game.

Very well said.

If we as individuals take time to think about what we say, think about how other people will interpret what we have written and if there is anything that will cause offence, think again about how we have written it and how we can make it come across so that it is less likely to do so. If you've not thought carefully about how people will interpret your post before you hit 'submit' then you can't play the poor me card when people respond negatively to it.

[Evil One]

The selfishness on display in some of these posts is staggering. :shock:

[robgomm]

Did we lose site of the problem?

Isn't the problem that Meat is upset and he won't come back?

Isn't the issue to be fixed that we want him to come back?

It isn't about in fighting among members. It's about Meat coming back here isn't it????

No this isn't the problem Suzie, this isn't just about Meat. It's about everybody. Members upset each other more than they have upset Meat. It's not just about Meat coming back here. As Caryl and others have said Meat coming here is a bonus, not the be all and end all.

Monstro and others have it absolutely right. The way to move forward and fix things (and keep the bonus of Meat and the band coming here hopefully) is to think about what you say with more care. I myself would like to commend the mods here. They may not always get everything 100% perfect but then who does in life? But they are doing a damn good job lately and they were VERY quick to remove the insulting bad posts yesterday which could have upset a lot of people.

When people don't post with care then it causes bad feeling and people start arguing and it snowballs out of control. I love loads of people on here but I don't agree with their views all the time. But I don't care because it's okay to have different views. The world would be a VERY boring place if we all thought the same about something.

The mods HAVE recognised there is a problem, and their solution for fixing things is the right one. :up:

[robgomm]

What are we, as a group, willing to change in order to keep Meat feeling comfortable here?

I think this is wrong Stretch, with respect it should be what are we willing to change in order to keep all members feeling comfortable?

[robgomm]

If you read through the posts you'll see that the majority appreciate this site and whilst there may be "issues" they can be overcome with a little bit of understanding towards others thoughts and opinions without disregarding them as yada yada.

And in my opinion this site doesn't need "turning around", it needs the members to show more respect and understanding to EVERYONE'S feelings/thoughts/opinions/posts before they post their own.

:up:

[CarylB]

On the production thread Paul posted in a reply to a question about FOH sound mix:

"This is VERY shaky ground. It's incredibly easy for a guy like me to annoy any FOH engineer and I'm positive that I annoy...
I do the best I can ... "

Paul thinks about everything George is having to deal with, and considers George's feelings and perspective before he acts or speaks. That's all it takes, whether it's George, Meat, or any other member here. As Mel says, it's down to everyone and the language they choose to use. And as Michael said, the site doesn't need "turning around", it needs the members to show respect to and understanding of others' feelings. Most of the time that happens. When it doesn't there's a problem. If Meat's feelings aren't considered he walks away, and many of us are saddened by that, because we do see him posting here as something special and to be nurtured.

Meat is passionate in and about his work; it's what attracts most of us to it and to him, and what makes many of us passionate about it and him. Just like 40 lawyers at the bottom of the sea, thinking about how your post may be interpreted before you hit submit is a good start.

Caryl

[robgomm]

On the production thread Paul posted in a reply to a question about FOH sound mix:

"This is VERY shaky ground. It's incredibly easy for a guy like me to annoy any FOH engineer and I'm positive that I annoy...
I do the best I can ... "

Paul thinks about everything George is having to deal with, and considers George's feelings and perspective before he acts or speaks. That's all it takes, whether it's George, Meat, or any other member here. As Mel says, it's down to everyone and the language they choose to use. And as Michael said, the site doesn't need "turning around", it needs the members to show respect to and understanding of others' feelings. Most of the time that happens. When it doesn't there's a problem. If Meat's feelings aren't considered he walks away, and many of us are saddened by that, because we do see him posting here as something special and to be nurtured.

Meat is passionate in and about his work; it's what attracts most of us to it and to him, and what makes many of us passionate about it and him. Just like 40 lawyers at the bottom of the sea, thinking about how your post may be interpreted before you hit submit is a good start.

Caryl

:up:

[Adje]

Wow, too many posts in here for me to read. And I won't because basically...

Nothing has to be fixed!

The diversity of people in here is amazing. Only showing how diverse the Meat Loaf fans are. You have followers, adorers, criticasters, groupies etc. Just like in the real World.

And just like in the Real World I have an opnion about most people here. Some I like, some I love, some I hate, some I disagree with and at least one person that I completely ignore because I can't stand anything that person says. It actually feels like the 'real thing' :D

So what if someone says something 'less nice' about anyone. So what if a person critisizes a performance, cd or song of Meat Loaf. So what if the discusions get a little heated sometimes and so what if Meat Loaf gets upset by it?

We are here for a simple reason. Because we are a fan of a certain artist. And I have read harsh critisism about that artist here. But I hardly found anything disrespectful. Being a fan also means sharing your dissapointment to each other. About anything. And that includes the artist you like so much or even love.

We all overreact sometimes. I do, other members do and we know Meat does that too. And then we argue and if we don't work it out a mod comes in and does his/her thing to take the heat away. A perfect balance with so many diverse people in here. But above all a perfect place to share your honest opinion.

So, should MLUKFC be a 'safe haven' for Meat Loaf? Well it depends on your idea of a safe haven, I guess. For me! It should be a place where Meat knows his fans are. In all their brutal honesty and in all their suport.

This is what MLUKFC should be for me. And at this time still is.

I appreciate Paul's opinion and contribution. But there is one thing I commpletely disagree with him about. He mentioned a few days back that we might as well rename this board to the ML UK Hate forum.

Well Paul if you read this, I believe the people that are so critical are fans. And they don't hate. But, just like Meat Loaf, their ego and personal experience tells them how they feel about things, including Meat Loaf. If they are dissapointed in anything Meat did they should be free to express that here. Because this is a fan community. They don't express their dissapointment because they hate Meat Loaf. They express it because that is what a community like this is about. The fact that others might disagree with the person is no reason to say that person hates. He just has a strong different opinion.

This is a fan community, not a fan cult

[robgomm]

Wow, too many posts in here for me to read. And I won't because basically...

Nothing has to be fixed!

The diversity of people in here is amazing. Only showing how diverse the Meat Loaf fans are. You have followers, adorers, criticasters, groupies etc. Just like in the real World.

And just like in the Real World I have an opnion about most people here. Some I like, some I love, some I hate, some I disagree with and at least one person that I completely ignore because I can't stand anything that person says. It actually feels like the 'real thing' :D

So what if someone says something 'less nice' about anyone. So what if a person critisizes a performance, cd or song of Meat Loaf. So what if the discusions get a little heated sometimes and so what if Meat Loaf gets upset by it?

We are here for a simple reason. Because we are a fan of a certain artist. And I have read harsh critisism about that artist here. But I hardly found anything disrespectful. Being a fan also means sharing your dissapointment to each other. About anything. And that includes the artist you like so much or even love.

We all overreact sometimes. I do, other members do and we know Meat does that too. And then we argue and if we don't work it out a mod comes in and does his/her thing to take the heat away. A perfect balance with so many diverse people in here. But above all a perfect place to share your honest opinion.

So, should MLUKFC be a 'safe haven' for Meat Loaf? Well it depends on your idea of a safe haven, I guess. For me! It should be a place where Meat knows his fans are. In all their brutal honesty and in all their suport.

This is what MLUKFC should be for me. And at this time still is.

I appreciate Paul's opinion and contribution. But there is one thing I commpletely disagree with him about. He mentioned a few days back that we might as well rename this board to the ML UK Hate forum.

Well Paul if you read this, I believe the people that are so critical are fans. And they don't hate. But, just like Meat Loaf, their ego and personal experience tells them how they feel about things, including Meat Loaf. If they are dissapointed in anything Meat did they should be free to express that here. Because this is a fan community. They don't express their dissapointment because they hate Meat Loaf. They express it because that is what a community like this is about. The fact that others might disagree with the person is no reason to say that person hates. He just has a strong different opinion.

This is a fan community, not a fan cult

But Adje people just go too far on here. Instead of just saying they didn't like something or saying well i wasn't so keen on this part they go further and specifically attack things and sometimes insult the artist.

it shouldn't get to the point where the mods have to step in. I don't think it's right that people stir up bad feeling and arguments among themselves do you?

[Adje]

But Adje people just go too far on here. Instead of just saying they didn't like something or saying well i wasn't so keen on this part they go further and specifically attack things and sometimes insult the artist.

it shouldn't get to the point where the mods have to step in. I don't think it's right that people stir up bad feeling and arguments among themselves do you?

Basically what I'm saying is that in this community you should be free to express your dislikes as much as your love. If this means an indepth post that sound harsh it doesn't immediately mean you stir up bad feelings.

And just like in real life we have people who can handle this better than others. ;)

[robgomm]

Basically what I'm saying is that in this community you should be free to express your dislikes as much as your love. If this means an indepth post that sound harsh it doesn't immediately mean you stir up bad feelings.

And just like in real life we have people who can handle this better than others. ;)

People can express their dislike I agree, it's the way they do it that causes trouble.

[ninja]

So I'll gues I'll sum up by saying. Meat, Paul, and the band: We love you no matter what! We love your work, I'm sure we all have multiple copies of your work! I have four copies of HIAH, 1 digital and 3 hard and I'm debating whether to get a US one! Not to mention the other albums, In terms of the music I play on my iPod, it's 99.5% you guys. All the time. I'll be sure to be at a minimum of 3 concerts WHEN you come back to the UK. Hopefully I'll get to meet you all as well! I'm sure there will be a group of MLUK'ers front and center at at least one of the concerts (I'll do a banner! :-P)

Agaiin this is a brilliant community. I'm sure I could never leave it!

:cool:

wow, how great ... i just can agree 100%!! :D

[Sue K]

I'm sorry, but it got a bit dizzying reading through the thread... so I've skimmed... I have a question, sort of like a what came first... the chicken or egg... Meat didn't always post here, did he ? How long after the UKFC was formed did he begin ?

I came on board when I learned Meat posted here. I think it's cool for fans that the focus of their fandom talks to them. I'm sorry that Meat gets upset and leaves. I always keep faith he'll be back. I don't know how you "fix it" so Meat won't get upset but for mods to delete every post they sense is negative and that's really not fair to them or the poster because while there may be some negative points in posts in same posts could be positive... Good luck to all !

Meanwhile I'll stay because I enjoy reading Meat's posts... and tales of fan gatherings ... and playng on the Off Topic threads and in the arcade... It's like an online carnival for me ... lol ...

oh and I wouldn't miss a WarieL masterpiece for the all the world !!! ... lol ...

Peace out ...

S ... xo

[glamourgirl]

It all comes down to respect- respect for Meat, respect for the band, respect for each other.

If someone doesn't like a song or part of a show, then offer a constructive critique about how to make it better. That is useful. But saying something sucks is useless and so is false praise.

When someone posts an opinion, we all need to stop misinterpreting comments and insulting someone if we disagree with their opinion. It is just an opinion- no one is right or wrong.

[Sue K]

It all comes down to respect- respect for Meat, respect for the band, respect for each other.

If someone doesn't like a song or part of a show, then offer a constructive critique about how to make it better. That is useful. But saying something sucks is useless and so is false praise.

When someone posts an opinion, we all need to stop misinterpreting comments and insulting someone if we disagree with their opinion. It is just an opinion- no one is right or wrong.

I like your post !! ... It was easy to read, to the point... and I wished I'd said it... lol ... xo

[suzieq]

So is the consensus that the forum is fine, there is no need to fix it or turn it around?

I'm going to extend an open invitation to all members here. That is if I post anything that offends you as a person, I would like you to pm me so we can discuss it like adults. I can only account for my own posts and man up for any offense I may not realize I am committing.

If I don't know I've offended you, I can't fix it.

Can we truce?

[AndyK]

Can we truce?

This is perhaps one of the best questions that have been posed on this thread. As we do move forward I think it'll help if we all drop as many of pur preconceptions about people and our perceived motives behind their posts as we possibly can, easier said than done I know but it'll help a great deal if it's possible?

[chairboys]

I have to admit that the 'incident' took me by surprise somewhat. But, the last few weeks on here beats any novel written!! I can't believe anyone, deep down, doesn't enjoy all of this! Everyone still comes on here and posts and either agrees or disagrees with their FELLOW MEAT FANS.
The moderators are steady hands on the tiller in what are choppy waters at the moment.
They do a very good job. It's a labour of love for them and I, for one, appreciate that.
There seems to be more activity on here than for a wee while so, I guess, it can't be that bad.
Long live the MLUKFC.

[Nici]

Wow, too many posts in here for me to read. And I won't because basically...

Nothing has to be fixed!

The diversity of people in here is amazing. Only showing how diverse the Meat Loaf fans are. You have followers, adorers, criticasters, groupies etc. Just like in the real World.

And just like in the Real World I have an opnion about most people here. Some I like, some I love, some I hate, some I disagree with and at least one person that I completely ignore because I can't stand anything that person says. It actually feels like the 'real thing' :D

So what if someone says something 'less nice' about anyone. So what if a person critisizes a performance, cd or song of Meat Loaf. So what if the discusions get a little heated sometimes and so what if Meat Loaf gets upset by it?

We are here for a simple reason. Because we are a fan of a certain artist. And I have read harsh critisism about that artist here. But I hardly found anything disrespectful. Being a fan also means sharing your dissapointment to each other. About anything. And that includes the artist you like so much or even love.

We all overreact sometimes. I do, other members do and we know Meat does that too. And then we argue and if we don't work it out a mod comes in and does his/her thing to take the heat away. A perfect balance with so many diverse people in here. But above all a perfect place to share your honest opinion.

So, should MLUKFC be a 'safe haven' for Meat Loaf? Well it depends on your idea of a safe haven, I guess. For me! It should be a place where Meat knows his fans are. In all their brutal honesty and in all their suport.

This is what MLUKFC should be for me. And at this time still is.

I appreciate Paul's opinion and contribution. But there is one thing I commpletely disagree with him about. He mentioned a few days back that we might as well rename this board to the ML UK Hate forum.

Well Paul if you read this, I believe the people that are so critical are fans. And they don't hate. But, just like Meat Loaf, their ego and personal experience tells them how they feel about things, including Meat Loaf. If they are dissapointed in anything Meat did they should be free to express that here. Because this is a fan community. They don't express their dissapointment because they hate Meat Loaf. They express it because that is what a community like this is about. The fact that others might disagree with the person is no reason to say that person hates. He just has a strong different opinion.

This is a fan community, not a fan cult

I totally agree with you Adje well said!!!

[Metal Loaf]

Wow, too many posts in here for me to read. And I won't because basically...

Nothing has to be fixed!

Well Paul if you read this, I believe the people that are so critical are fans. And they don't hate. But, just like Meat Loaf, their ego and personal experience tells them how they feel about things, including Meat Loaf. If they are dissapointed in anything Meat did they should be free to express that here. Because this is a fan community. They don't express their dissapointment because they hate Meat Loaf. They express it because that is what a community like this is about. The fact that others might disagree with the person is no reason to say that person hates. He just has a strong different opinion.

This is a fan community, not a fan cult



I read your post...

Opinions don't bother me.

You're totally missing the point.

P

[The Flying Mouse]

Ok, been thinking about my post here for a few days and mentally re-written it so many times it's a joke so I'm just gonna say what this site means to me and how it's changed my life .(that is not an overstatement).

And a lot more great stuff
.

:twisted: A great post, and some great memories :up:



I think this thread was how to fix things....but right now I don't see many suggestions "HOW" to do that. I've read about what this site means to other people and yada, yada, but I don't know if anyone has come up with a solid solution of how to fix and turn around the site.

1st thing is that moderation needs to acknowledge that there is a problem to begin with.
2nd thing is to post an update somewhere of what is being done to correct the problems they are working on.
3rd thing is that moderation should open their minds a little bit and see that this place can be more fruitful if we keep the band members and MEAT happy!


If there is a problem to be fixed, it's first got to be decided what the problem is.
And as a lot of people have different ideas on what the problem is, or wether there is even a problem or not in the first place, that's no mean trick.



When Meat is happy to come to forum then has to read through hurtful things, he passionately defends himself. I believe rightly so. I think NO less of him for doing so and in which manner he does it.


It's not a nice thing to talk about, I certainly don't like talking about it, because it concentrates on all the cons rather than the massive pros of Meat being here, and I don't want this thread to be something that continually bashes Meat like a pinata who's to blame for the forums ills, but sometimes he has gone over the top and blasted people to en extent that can't be easily justified.

In fact, I would go as far to say (if we're leaving all the BS at the door here, because I think the threads usless without honest conversation) if it had been anyone but Meat who had repeatedly posted messages like that, they would have been banned by now.

But as i've posted before, I also understand that Meat is in a unique position on this forum, and is more likely to be personally invested on what is said on the forum.

Respect and tolerance has to run both ways, and that goes for people who wish to criticize too.




He was given a lot of static by fans because he used to use explicit language in his posts upon his defense. HE doesn't do that anymore. He's said it in a respectful way...and guess what, HE'S still getting static.


Again, I hate this, it makes me sound like a Meat basher (OOH MATRON! :shock: ) , but he is still apt to fly off the handle. When he left recently, there was no ill meaning in the message posted, but Meat decided to leave the forum.




So no you cannot please all members all the time. But I think you can please band members and Meat pretty easy. Why not edit the posts that can be more Meat/band member friendly? Why not delete posts that leave room for reading between the lines (which we aren't supposed to do)? Maybe doing this enough, the offenders will either lose interest in flaming OR adapt to the existing rules of posting with respect?


How can we keep Meat and the band happy?
By deleting every negative opinion from the board?
If we (the staff) see something that we believe is posted in a way that is offensive through the way it's worded, or posted with an intent to flame, we will edit/delete the post, and warn/infract the poster if we believe there was ill intent.

Again, the recent post which offended Meat was posted by a big supporter of Meat, certainly not somebody I believe would ever want to cause Meat upset, and we all know what happened.

So should a genuinly honest opinion, posted in a respectful manner, not be allowed on this forum because it is not a positive one and might offend Meat?


As for flaming, I don't believe anyone on this forum posts with intent to flame Meat.
Each other, maybe, but not Meat.
From a mod point of view, if we see flaming, we stop it.





RE: Meat posting vs. friends. Meat has been there for me when my friends couldn't be. When I'm mentally alone going through stuff. I'd much rather hear from the man who speaks to me in song, than to keyboard babysit one of my internet friends.

I don't know how relevant this is, but i've got to say although how much I love Meat, my real life friends win hands down :shrug:




Perhaps some of the mod team are too attached to their friends to moderate according to what some members want.


Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm reading this and understand you are saying that we do not moderate certain people because they are our friends?

If so, i'm offended by that.
I'm sure I speak for the rest of the staff when I say we take our impartiality very seriously, and I myself have even contacted another mod in the past for their opinion when I felt my impartiality was compromised.

Indeed, in the past i've moderated in favour of someone I truly cannot stand, who had subjected myself and others to a campaign of hate and insult, and got nothing in return but more insult.

Now that's impartial.





Some members want Meat to stop by and post when he can. Some members want band members to feel comfortable here and post when time permits for them. It's very interesting when they do. We get first hand knowledge instead of speculation and inaccuracies.



I'm pretty sure everyone on the forum wants that.




I can't blame Meat for wanting to leave here for good. I do hope an understanding can be met so he doesn't leave. However, it starts from the top and trickles down. So, I'll leave you to it and fix it.


Again, if we're fixing something we first need to know what (if anything) should be fixed.



Meat's not going to change and neither are the members personalities. It's a moderation problem to meld the two together. So the site DOES need to be turned around. Otherwise you guys and gals are babysitters with no control.


Again, i'm seeing no suggestions for possible solution.
You can't fix a problem by pointing at it and saying "fix it".

Babysitters without control?
If you want to use that, the situation is that we found a baby, raised it, then the father turned up and we've got to babysit him too.
I don't know much about babysitting, but I don't think many would do that for 5 quid an hour plus full fridge rights :wtf: .




Isn't the problem that Meat is upset and he won't come back?


You are aware he's been back and posted, right? :bleh:


There are issues, I agree that some of the posts on the site can be seen as being somewhat rude and argumentative (those that escape the mods) but most do express the posters feelings in an entirely appropriate and positive way.

:up:



..perhaps a poll would help....ffs :?

Who is the "ffs" aimed at? :wtf:
Is it because R did not have the foresight to add a poll (despite the fact he had no idea what the hell would be said on the thread at the time).

Is that the kind of respect that's being discussed on this thread?



Surely the purpose of moderation (and I'm sure the Mods will correct me here if I'm wrong) is not to moderate the 'opinions' of posts, but to moderate the 'tone' of posts. A case of not what you say, but how you say it ?

Wanted to make sure everyone saw this :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:



Meat NEEDS an Official Fan Page....like we had on .net


Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, either way that's not something that is something that concerns this site or any problems here perceived by members of this forum.




I am by no means putting THIS fan page down...nor suggesting it has to be a "US" site, but I miss the .net paid membership (less trolls) member advantages and up to date tour info. We've lost THAT.

I don't believe this site is particularly a target for trolls.
When you said that .net had less trolling, do you mean that the site was safe because trolls wouldn't pay the join fee, or that if anyone posted an honest but negative opinion (seen as some as trolling) that would be banned from the forum without refund?



Perhaps MLUK could be "it".

I can't speak for the rest of the staff, but I fail to see the point of changing mlukfc to something unrecognizable. You might as well change the name too.





I suppose my suggestion for improvement ultimately is to turn THIS into a paid membership Official fan site... OR having threads and posting ability on the existing Meatloaf.net....



Wether or not mlukfc should ever become a pay site is the sole concern of the site owners.
Nobody else has a say in that.

Not Meat.

Not the members.

Not me.


Again, I fail to see any benefit in changing mlukfc completly in all but name into a clone of the forum on .net.
Not to be too subtle, but how long did the .net forum last?





Members upset each other more than they have upset Meat.

Quoted for truth :up:



They may not always get everything 100% perfect


How very dare you? :shock: :p


Just like in the real World.


Yeah, but we have smilies too :mrgreen:



And just like in the Real World I have an opnion about most people here. Some I like, some I love, some I hate, some I disagree with and at least one person that I completely ignore because I can't stand anything that person says. It actually feels like the 'real thing' :D

Ignoring people can be an under rated skill.
Quite often i've seen a comment made by someone (which, in no time would have been buried halfway through the thread and lost to humanity until Jonty gets drunk and starts looking for old threads to bump :p ) get such a reaction that the thread has become a big deal and things have got out of all proportion.

Sometimes the best way to deal with an opinion you don't agree with is to leave it alone and not keep the discussion alive.



So what if someone says something 'less nice' about anyone. So what if a person critisizes a performance, cd or song of Meat Loaf.


Because we like to think of this forum as a friendly, welcoming, and civilized place where all fans can come and share their passion for the works of Mr Loaf.



so what if Meat Loaf gets upset by it?


Because, IMHO, Meat is someone who has given a lot of pleasure to everyone on this forum (i'm not saying he's not been paid for it, but all the same :shrug:).
I believe the vast majority of members have a great deal of respect for Meat and would not repay his hard work with a flippant attitude towards his feelings.





Being a fan also means sharing your dissapointment to each other. About anything. And that includes the artist you like so much or even love.


Agreed 100% :up:
That's now it used to be on the forum, sharing thoughts and opinions (good and bad) on Meat's work, but Meat wasn't here then so it wasn't very so much important.
Things were much more relaxed and far less heated.


mlukfc has always been "a fan club run by the fans for the fans".

We've never been "a fan club run by the fans for Meat Loaf".

Once upon a time I would have sworn that they were both one and the same thing.



So, should MLUKFC be a 'safe haven' for Meat Loaf? Well it depends on your idea of a safe haven, I guess. For me! It should be a place where Meat knows his fans are. In all their brutal honesty and in all their suport.

This is what MLUKFC should be for me. And at this time still is.


Change "brutal" to "tactful" and i'm with that all the way :up:


As we do move forward I think it'll help if we all drop as many of pur preconceptions about people and our perceived motives behind their posts as we possibly can, easier said than done I know but it'll help a great deal if it's possible?

Very very true :up:

[RSG]

It's been a couple days since I read Metal Loaf's post. I think I remember it having something to do with staying on topic. Unless Metal wrote more, in which case I'm getting to it, I woke up to 65 new posts!
I think to 'fix 'it' is to remain relative to the thread topic at hand.

[CarylB]

It's been a couple days since I read Metal Loaf's post. I think I remember it having something to do with staying on topic. Unless Metal wrote more, in which case I'm getting to it, I woke up to 65 new posts!
I think to 'fix 'it' is to remain relative to the thread topic at hand.

No, Paul suggested a thread to prevent his thread going off topic, when he commented on the way criticism was being expressed ;) I see the "fix" referring to how the forum can be a place where criticism is undertaken with care and tact .. ie with thought for how those being criticised might read what is written without feeling annoyed or that their their efforts are belittled or dismissed.

I don't expect every person here to like everything Meat records, every performance. However many of us do, and if I do I'll say I do; it is a fan forum after all. I'll post an opinion which is mine. If I can do that without being dismissed or argued against for having it, and the critical opinion is expressed with some thought for how it will come across to Meat or Paul, (both of whom are passionate about what they do, and are very close to it) both views can be expressed with courtesy and some care for the feelings of others. Bluntness isn't that helpful imo on a forum; tact and care is.

Caryl

[AndyK]

I'm sure I speak for the rest of the staff when I say we take our impartiality very seriously, and I myself have even contacted another mod in the past for their opinion when I felt my impartiality was compromised.

I can't remember a time when personal friendships have affected the way the mod team operate, we often have strong (sometimes very strong) discussions between ourselves on the right way forward with an issue, and generally if a mod is personally involved in any way they step back out of that particular situation because of that involvement and let others deal with it.

[lyn]

Not sure why this is addressed to me?

We've been here before. My view is this. I agree with Matt that having the artist visit here is pretty exceptional, and Paul's presence has certainly produced a more positive vibe.

Jenna wrote:

Meat recorded a song called 'All of Me' which basically summed up who he is and I feel that the song was him asking for acceptance for all that he is. We know he's an emotional man, his performances wouldn't have the same passion if he wasn't. Whether we like his emotional side or not, it's him. He is in a unique position in that it's him we are talking about and if I were to get the amount of negatives that he has had to deal with at times, I'd be pretty upset too. He may be the performer and the celebrity but he's a human being and sometimes I think it would be beneficial to try and see things from his point of view.

That sums it up for me. Meat doesn't expect everyone to like everything, and he is open to feedback on his work (and I use the word feedback intentionally, because in my experience once people start talking about giving "constructive criticism" what follows is frequently criticism with little constructive about it, not just here, but everywhere). But feedback needs to be given with an appreciation for the feelings of the person, or they simply can't hear it. And that's important, as is NOT criticising (constructively or otherwise) Meat's character, motivation, integrity and values. They're his and are not his work. And it would be good for people to remember how important his work is to him, how much effort and energy he puts into it, and bear in mind how he will feel when that is criticised.

Yes, opinions are fine .. and so is disagreeing with them. I hate the term "true fan" personally as I have no idea what that means and suspect everyone has a different perspective. But given I suspect I fall into Matt's definition above, I think it's perfectly fair for me to say I disagree with a criticism posted here as long as I don't dismiss it rudely, but simply post my different view .. and as long as I'm not dismissed as being besotted or blinded for not agreeing, I'm perfectly happy to post that view and move on. But tell me that's "typical" of me, or imply my judgement or rationality is flawed by my blindness or insanity and I won't. ;) I don't feel "bullied" .. no-one here puts the food on my table ;) .. but tell me I'm blinded by love or my beliefs/views are wrong and I'll respond. My views may be different, but no less valid. They're just mine.

And I think it's not unreasonable to expect than a fan site, by definition, will have many people posting who DO admire and love the performer and his work. Above all, everyone who posts here should have and show respect for Meat, for his endeavours, his honesty, the quality of the years of work he has given us, even when he produces a piece of work that appeals less to some of us. And respect and care for his feelings. His work is so much a part of him, springs from his inner creativity. He cares about it, he is passionate about it, he is honest about it. He seeks to find and deliver the truth. That means it matters to him. A lot.

You may not like something. This does not mean it has no value, nor that it is crap. It may have no value to you, but it has value to him, and to others .. like me :-)

This should be a no-brainer. It's about exercising thought, care and compassion, not more rules imo.

Caryl

Yes, I wondered was meant about an appology card from you too Caryl, as you have done no wrong, imho ;)

I couldn't have said it better in regard to Caryl's response here too ;)

Imho, as a fan club we really need to show common courtesy, respect and have a civil tongue when discussing issues about Meat and the band :) We also need to do that in regard to each other here ;) Yes we all have our own valid opinions etc, but when expressing them, we need to be civil about it, and pay attention to how we express these opinions, as it is the wording of opinions that can ruffle feathers, upset people, and cause trouble.

We have seen what this latest negative tidal wave has done in regard to Meat. Let's all change this, and become a happier place to be ;) Remember we are all Meat followers/fans here. Let's act like respectable ones eh ;)

The mods! I'll give credit where credit is due ;) You do do a good job, BUT, and please do not take offence to this as it is only honest feedback. But the rules/terms and conditions to follow here need to be somewhat stricter imo ;) There have been certain issues lately that may have been handled better, and certain things that should have been completely removed, but weren't :( It was some of those things that drove Meat away, and have drove other members away. Some threads were also closed, which was quite understandable, but imo should have been removed due to their content. Otherwise, you are doing well, and I do understand that you have to do what is best for one and all. ;)

[lyn]

So is the consensus that the forum is fine, there is no need to fix it or turn it around?

I'm going to extend an open invitation to all members here. That is if I post anything that offends you as a person, I would like you to pm me so we can discuss it like adults. I can only account for my own posts and man up for any offense I may not realize I am committing.

If I don't know I've offended you, I can't fix it.

Can we truce?

CHSIB Suzieq! And that goes for me too! If I've said something to offend, then PM me too, and we can sort it out that way, not openly on a thread.

[lyn]

I think this thread was how to fix things....but right now I don't see many suggestions "HOW" to do that. I've read about what this site means to other people and yada, yada, but I don't know if anyone has come up with a solid solution of how to fix and turn around the site.

1st thing is that moderation needs to acknowledge that there is a problem to begin with.
2nd thing is to post an update somewhere of what is being done to correct the problems they are working on.
3rd thing is that moderation should open their minds a little bit and see that this place can be more fruitful if we keep the band members and MEAT happy!

Some of the mods here are part of the fibres of the site, so if anyone should know how MEAT is going to react to something, WHY don't you moderate the posts that are going to piss him off? Some mods can probably speak candidly with him and flat out ask him? What would you like to see changed? How can we do a better job for YOU for a site that bears YOUR name so we don't lose you as a member?

When Meat is happy and he's on forum, it is sure delight. He is informative, fun, and answers questions. He may respond to some positive posts. His posts that he can answer....like clearing up the Bat III era....has been just as informative as Paul's Production thread. He was open and honest and answered a lot about that time period we wouldn't otherwise know. When Meat is happy to come to forum then has to read through hurtful things, he passionately defends himself. I believe rightly so. I think NO less of him for doing so and in which manner he does it. However, over the last, what 3 years, I think MEAT has changed. He was given a lot of static by fans because he used to use explicit language in his posts upon his defense. HE doesn't do that anymore. He's said it in a respectful way...and guess what, HE'S still getting static.

So no you cannot please all members all the time. But I think you can please band members and Meat pretty easy. Why not edit the posts that can be more Meat/band member friendly? Why not delete posts that leave room for reading between the lines (which we aren't supposed to do)? Maybe doing this enough, the offenders will either lose interest in flaming OR adapt to the existing rules of posting with respect?

RE: Meat posting vs. friends. Meat has been there for me when my friends couldn't be. When I'm mentally alone going through stuff. I'd much rather hear from the man who speaks to me in song, than to keyboard babysit one of my internet friends. Perhaps some of the mod team are too attached to their friends to moderate according to what some members want. Some members want Meat to stop by and post when he can. Some members want band members to feel comfortable here and post when time permits for them. It's very interesting when they do. We get first hand knowledge instead of speculation and inaccuracies.

I can't blame Meat for wanting to leave here for good. I do hope an understanding can be met so he doesn't leave. However, it starts from the top and trickles down. So, I'll leave you to it and fix it.

CHSIB myself Suzieq :)

[Julie in the rv mirror]

So if we are saying that in order to keep Meat here, similar views and opinions need to be edited or deleted by the Mods (as is suggested above), then I suspect all we will end up with are 'approved' views and opinions, and the site will cease to be a forum in the true sense of the word ...

I don't think this site needs fixing at all ... and if it does need fixing then the 'solution' - (censorship ?) - may be worse than the 'problem'.

"Like" :up:

Being a fan also means sharing your dissapointment to each other. About anything. And that includes the artist you like so much or even love.[...]

But, just like Meat Loaf, their ego and personal experience tells them how they feel about things, including Meat Loaf. If they are dissapointed in anything Meat did they should be free to express that here. Because this is a fan community. They don't express their dissapointment because they hate Meat Loaf. They express it because that is what a community like this is about. The fact that others might disagree with the person is no reason to say that person hates. He just has a strong different opinion.

This is a fan community, not a fan cult


Well said- I agree.

On the subject of ignoring posts that annoy us, I think I'm pretty good at doing that on my own. But, other boards I have seen have an "ignore" feature, whereby you can set your preferences so that you never see that person's posts at all (Until someone else quotes them, but that's a different story. lol). I don't know if this site has that capability, but it's a suggestion.

Just like 40 lawyers at the bottom of the sea, thinking about how your post may be interpreted before you hit submit is a good start.

I suppose now might be a good time to tell you that I'm a lawyer? :twisted:
















(Just kidding, I'm not. Nor do I play one on television. ;))

[Metal Loaf]

No, Paul suggested a thread to prevent his thread going off topic, when he commented on the way criticism was being expressed ;) I see the "fix" referring to how the forum can be a place where criticism is undertaken with care and tact .. ie with thought for how those being criticised might read what is written without feeling annoyed or that their their efforts are belittled or dismissed.

I don't expect every person here to like everything Meat records, every performance. However many of us do, and if I do I'll say I do; it is a fan forum after all. I'll post an opinion which is mine. If I can do that without being dismissed or argued against for having it, and the critical opinion is expressed with some thought for how it will come across to Meat or Paul, (both of whom are passionate about what they do, and are very close to it) both views can be expressed with courtesy and some care for the feelings of others. Bluntness isn't that helpful imo on a forum; tact and care is.

Caryl

Caryl, your response couldn't be anymore spot-on in regard to the way I view things. Thank you very much.

I'll add...

- Post your opinions as if we were sitting together in a pub, talking over a pint. Basically, comments that you wouldn't have a problem "saying" to me face-to-face.


P

[olblueeyes]

Post your opinions as if we were sitting together in a pub, talking over a pint. Basically, comments that you wouldn't have a problem "saying" to me face-to-face.
P

A lengthy thread this, but I think this comment by Paul neatly sums up the solution in two sentences.

This place is not unlike an online pub, but sometimes it gets a bit too heated. I talk music, movies and politics with the folk in my local and it's always friendly and respectful, even with differing opinions. Any other way and it becomes one of those pubs you say "it's always kicking off in there - I'll try somewhere else for a pint".

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[The Flying Mouse]

It was some of those things that drove Meat away, and have drove other members away.

:twisted: I'm sorry if i'm repeating myself here (I hate coming back to it because it sounds like i've got nothing to say except rant at Meat), but the most recent post that offended Meat was an honest opinion posted in a respectful manner.
It was not posted by a troll, it was not posted with ill intent, it was not posted to upset Meat, it was posted by somebody who is a supporter of Meat who is, for the most part, very positive about Meat and his career.

If a post like that, posted by a fan like that, is enough to annoy Meat so much he gets upset enough to leave the forum, I really don't know what we are supposed to allow posted on the forum except the sweetest of sickly sweet posts with not a single criticism in sight.

Nobody drove Meat away from the forum.

Nobody drove other members from the forum, they left because Meat was annoyed. Even though they could see that what upset him was not a mean hearted comment posted by someone who wanted to cause Meat any upset.

I'm really at a loss to understand what we are supposed to do short of paint the place with rainbows and fluffy bunnies and not have a bad word said.



I don't know if this site has that capability, but it's a suggestion.



We do :up:

Your ignore list can be found with your friends list settings.

[AndrewG]

It seems to me like many people do the same thing as Meat has always done here: Ignore the 99% positive reviews and only care about the 1% negative ones. This has been going down here since 2003/2004 I believe.

If you put yourself on a public platform you will get torn down at some point the more you go on I think, some people want to be heard with their negative opinions so they choose a perhaps not so tactful response to be heard. Does it make their opinion more valuable? Well no, but they are getting exactly what they are wanting by everyone making a fuss about it surely? You can't please everyone anyway.

I personally CAN see where some of this negativity is coming from over the last decade on here, or at least I can see why it is happening. Some of the gigs have been up and down in quality and some of the albums too in my opinion. It is a shame Meat and a lot of his current fans seem so hurt by it. But if I am being honest I doubt the negativity will stop any time soon as long as this is an open forum, people cross reference opinions from other platforms such as YouTube or music/concert reviews, the album releases continue, all sorts of collaborations continue and the touring continues. Some of the other artists I've followed/am following are getting the same shit as they are approaching/getting into their sixties or even beyond. "He is losing it / he can't sing anymore / the songs are not of the same quality as before." This is not just related to Meat Loaf in my opinion. At the end of the day I think people should mostly listen to music they enjoy and perhaps not focus so much on things they don't like. It's always disappointing when an artist doesn't do what you expect or want to hear or see (I have this with film makers too - movies by my long time idol Steven Spielberg for example have been mostly lacking since the early 1990s in my opinion for example) but I guess it's just a waste of time worrying too much about it.

I remember one fan forum that only ever seemed to have positive responses. Eventually it fell on its ass and disappeared for good.

Seeing more/only tactful criticism would be good but it really happening? No that's just utopia talk I think. People are far too easily offended by anything these days, as no doubt some will be at my post.

I've been "offended" many times on here as well. When I first joined I was super excited as I thought I'd seen one of the best gigs I'd ever been to and then I had a run in with some guy who was going to file a complaint at the venue because he thought it was so crap. Was I wrong, was he wrong? Was I right, was he right? Neither I think. It's just how you deal with it I guess that will determine if you enjoy your time on this forum or not. Being tactful, yes I think everyone should but you can have an ENDLESS debate about what being tactful means and again I don't think anyone will have the right answer.

[stretch37]

I agree that it would suck to try to reign in people's opinions or make everything politically correct or "positive".

Having said that. We have a choice to make. We risk losing Meat, or we make a change. I think he's finally fed up enough to choose to leave, but is patient (and forgiving) enough to wait and see if Paul can help motivate a more positive mood around here.

[robgomm]

I agree that it would suck to try to reign in people's opinions or make everything politically correct or "positive".

Having said that. We have a choice to make. We risk losing Meat, or we make a change. I think he's finally fed up enough to choose to leave, but is patient (and forgiving) enough to wait and see if Paul can help motivate a more positive mood around here.

Again, it's not just about Meat, it's about everyone. I actually think this thread is finished with now.

Having read through all of the posts it is clear that moving forward virtually everyone agrees that the thing to do is post with more care and tact and respect, and not to post things the you think will stir up bad feeling and arguments with everyone. Posting something such as 'quantity over quality?' is undoubtedly a post designed to stir up trouble and cause arguments in my opinion.

Perhaps the mods could lock this thread and make a new thread called in conclusion or something as virtually everyone agrees on the way forward? Perhaps it could just be a statement that they come up with among themselves so that we know where we stand and how to move on?

[CarylB]

I'm not offended by your post Andrew, even though I don't agree with all of it. I think it rather sad if tact, considering others' feelings, posting (as Paul has suggested) as if you are actually talking to the person face to face with a simple level of friendly respect is a eutopian ideal. Just as I know of fan forums which do operate with respect and are positive, and have stood the test of time.

Nor do I agree with those who seem to have suggested that negativity is rife on this forum. Most fans are positive, but something carelessly posted without thought will stand out. Mouse commented on the recent comments that upset Meat. Perhaps it wasn't so much the "honest opinion", but the fact that the person holding it wouldn't let it go when others either disagreed, or said it didn't worry them, so it became a bigger issue and more noticeable. The quantity over quality comment that irked Paul, would have irked anyone who puts their heart and soul into their work in my view. Comments that suggest those who are positive, and who don't post criticism (perhaps because like me they don't feel qualified to criticise for eg the way something is recorded, the small sounds that may be left there or not .. or perhaps because, again like me, they have never been to a show that didn't have more to celebrate than to complain about) are obsessed, demented, ass-kissing etc (let's be fair, we've all seen these assertions posted) aren't helpful. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are bullying .. they're simply discourteous and annoying.

Paul pointed out that it's not so much what is said, it's the way it's said. And this is surely something anyone can and everyone could exercise a little more care over. I certainly wouldn't advocate that all criticism should be forbidden or removed. But it should in my view be possible for people in an educated and humane society to post about what disappoints them, or what they don't like in a way that takes account of the feelings of the person or persons being criticised. If some don't like Meat's new musical style for eg .. I think they're missing out, but that's their view. I'll probably say that I love HCTB and HIAH and say why I do, but won't suggest they're deficient for not liking them. I simply expect the same courtesy in return.

And when that fails there's the report button and a team of moderators who will get to it as soon as they can, and we have seen them do this often. (Twitter and Facebook have far more to be worried about imo.)

Caryl

[The Flying Mouse]

:twisted: The only thing I would slightly disagree with is..............

Perhaps it wasn't so much the "honest opinion", but the fact that the person holding it wouldn't let it go when others either disagreed, or said it didn't worry them, so it became a bigger issue and more noticeable.


I don't believe that someone should let their opinion go just because people reply that they disagree.
In fact, if you tell someone that their opinion is wrong then it's natural for the person to stand up for their opinion all the more.

If somebody makes a post stating an opinon you don't believe in, it's sometimes better not to respond and let the unchallenged opinion stand and then slide into obscurity.

IMHO it's when people tell the poster they are wrong (prompting to the poster defending themselves) that causes things to blow out of proportion and become a problem.

As I said earlier, ignoring people is a much under rated skill at times.

[Sarge]

We have a choice to make.

"We" don't have to do anything, especially not something defined by you. Stop speaking for everybody and stop trying to force what you think is "right" and what you want to do on everybody else! What makes you believe that you have the right to dictate others what to say and what to do? This thread has shown that there aren't that many members who concur with you but apparently you are not willing to accept that and obsessively try to get your way anyway. :down:

I agree with what was said by The Flying Mouse, Monstro, Julie, Adje and Paul Richardson.

[robgomm]

Perhaps it wasn't so much the "honest opinion", but the fact that the person holding it wouldn't let it go when others either disagreed, or said it didn't worry them, so it became a bigger issue and more noticeable.

Caryl

Actually Caryl I don't believe I did harp on about it or not let it go. I posted about it and someone asked me a question. I answered the question as one politely answers when asked, and that was when Meat came in. After that it was defending myself from everyone going off the deep end. So I may be wrong as I haven't read the thread in ages if it still exists but I believe I only posted twice before it turned into something ridiculous. I don't think you could call that not letting something go. In fact i'd go further and say I would have just posted once if someone hadn't asked me a question. So I respectfully say I believe you are wrong, although I am happy to be proved wrong myself.

[stretch37]

Let me make things abundantly clear.

I KNOW HOW I FEEL AND I SAY MY OPINION.

WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT ONES. I DONT CARE IF YOURS IS DIFFERENT THAN MINE, THATS WHAT MAKES LIFE AWESOME.

I AM NOT TRYING TO IMPOSE ANYTHING, I AM JUST HAVING AN OPINION.

I AM TRYING TO HELP MEAT WANT TO BE HERE AND NOT BE UPSET. THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO MY INTENTIONS THAN THAT.


THANK YOU.

BYE.

[The Flying Mouse]

:twisted: Posts leading to off topic argument deleted/edited.

Got a problem, report it.

[AndrewG]

This thread seems to start highlighting how NOT to fix things. :facepalm:

[Dave]

RESPECT denotes a positive feeling of esteem or deference for a person or other entity (such as a nation or a religion), and also specific actions and conduct representative of that esteem.

DIVERSITY means understanding that each individual is unique, and recognizing our individual differences.

I can only speak for myself when I say this and furthermore will throw blame for this squarely at myself when I make this statement…oftentimes it is forgotten that Meat Loaf is both a polarizing and all-encompassing artists bringing together a vast array of various demographics into his fandom. I have been to Meat Loaf concerts where I have seen both Hell’s Angels types and people in full-on Frank N. Furter drag talking in the same group. We are never going to see eye-to-eye and there will never be a consensus as to the essay question “what Meat Loaf means to me” among his fandom.

There are some who believe Mr. Loaf to be a serious artiste to be upheld in a lofty position of grandeur and there are some who believe that Meat is an amazing good-old boy rocker who has some pretty good tunes. There are some who believe Meat Loaf should work exclusively with Jim Steinman and only create Bat Out Of Hell over and over again and there are some who wish he would pick up a banjo and hit up the Grand Old Opry.

No one particular segment of the fandom is “better” than the other. No individual is a “true” fan who can declare others not. Anyone considering calling anyone “insane” for their opinions regarding Meat Loaf might as well be the pot talking to the kettle.

The board does not need to change. The moderation is just fine. The way to “fix” the problem here is for everyone (myself included) to learn to RESPECT the DIVERSITY that is the Meat Loaf fandom and learn to come together to rock with the man. In the words of the wonderful Meat Loaf fan Snooze and TMB, “attack the words, not the person” and if you feel the need to throw sand on another person’s keyboard, be ready to dust yours off in return. Be passionate, stand firm, but don’t loose your cool or RESPECT for the DIVERSITY of your fellow board members – that’s the way to really make a change here.

[Monstro]

That post should end this thread

[Paul Richardson]

I suppose now might be a good time to tell you that I'm a lawyer? :twisted:
















(Just kidding, I'm not. Nor do I play one on television. ;))

That's a shame - you should claim to be a lawyer if only for dramatic effect... :twisted:

[allrevvedup]

I can only speak for myself when I say this and furthermore will throw blame for this squarely at myself when I make this statement…oftentimes it is forgotten that Meat Loaf is both a polarizing and all-encompassing artists bringing together a vast array of various demographics into his fandom. I have been to Meat Loaf concerts where I have seen both Hell’s Angels types and people in full-on Frank N. Furter drag talking in the same group. We are never going to see eye-to-eye and there will never be a consensus as to the essay question “what Meat Loaf means to me” among his fandom.

There are some who believe Mr. Loaf to be a serious artiste to be upheld in a lofty position of grandeur and there are some who believe that Meat is an amazing good-old boy rocker who has some pretty good tunes. There are some who believe Meat Loaf should work exclusively with Jim Steinman and only create Bat Out Of Hell over and over again and there are some who wish he would pick up a banjo and hit up the Grand Old Opry.

No one particular segment of the fandom is “better” than the other. No individual is a “true” fan who can declare others not. Anyone considering calling anyone “insane” for their opinions regarding Meat Loaf might as well be the pot talking to the kettle.

The board does not need to change. The moderation is just fine. The way to “fix” the problem here is for everyone (myself included) to learn to RESPECT the DIVERSITY that is the Meat Loaf fandom and learn to come together to rock with the man. In the words of the wonderful Meat Loaf fan Snooze and TMB, “attack the words, not the person” and if you feel the need to throw sand on another person’s keyboard, be ready to dust yours off in return. Be passionate, stand firm, but don’t loose your cool or RESPECT for the DIVERSITY of your fellow board members – that’s the way to really make a change here.

That post should end this thread

I agree with all of that...

[Evil One]

I agree with all of that...
A shame it hasn't even lasted a week. :shrug:

[Paul Richardson]

A shame it hasn't even lasted a week. :shrug:

Well, as you know, some people just can't help themselves :shrug:

[chairboys]

I've just called Kofi Annan. He's on his way over.

[Sue K]

I've just called Kofi Annan. He's on his way over.

Please... he's got his OWN problems... and those of the OUT THERE world !!! ...

[robgomm]

I've just called Kofi Annan. He's on his way over.

Lmao

[R.]

So I guess it’s time for an „official“ statement now that this thread had some time to rest. Here's what we have committed to:


No new rules.
We already have enough rules and guidelines on this site. My impression is that nobody reads them anyway or tends to forget their content very very quickly. So, here’s a little reminder of what we think is the cornerstone of a community like this. RESPECT. Respect others and their opinion. Treat everyone like you expect to be treated here. Please note that if you came here to get insulted, this is not the place for you. And bear in in mind, written conversation is very different to a conversation face-to-face. This is even more significant considering that not everyone around is a native english speaker. So, pretty please, before you hit the submit button, think twice wether you worded your post appropriately, or not.

Self moderation.
I, amongst others on this thread and in my pm inbox, think moderation is fine on this site. Right now, I see no need for additional moderators or admins. We might be late on some occasion, due to timezone constraints, but basically we get our job done. Still, there are posts that clearly needed more consideration by the moderation team. And this is where the famous „Report Post“ button gets another mention. I cannot mention this function enough. It is your tool to force us to look at a certain post (again) with the point of view you have sent as reason for your report. Recent situations show that we responded pretty fast. So, to repeat myself: USE. THE. BLOODY. REPORT. POST. BUTTON.
Additionally, the report function has been enhanced so that posts will get removed from public view once a certain number of reports has been reached. Hopefully, we can then assess the problem without having a thread going ballistic in the background. Please note that we are clearly aware that this can be abused. Abuse will have immediate repercussions ranging from exclusion from this function to a permanent ban.

Stricter Moderation
We have, admittedly, not been quite as on the ball as we should have been and let the odd post go that is a little near the knuckle. But now we will take a stronger line against this kind of posting and we will respond to every reported post as soon as we can.

Remember that announcement we put up roughly 2 years ago? We will remove that and install it in a more prominent location (Oh look, it already is!). We know it’s obnoxious, but it’s a very convenient way for us to remind you why we're all here.

Let's see how this works out.