View Full Version : Scotland
chairboys
15 Sep 2014, 23:45
Is it goodbye?
Evil One
16 Sep 2014, 00:00
I doubt it
In all seriousness.....I dont think it will go yes but if it does I hardly think it will bring an end to the UK. If they believe an independant Scotland is a better Scotland then good luck to them.
Wales will be next.
Pretty sure life will go on as normal. More
things concern me at the moment in this crazy world.
Birmingham cant buy a win! Hey Mr Chairboys?
chairboys
16 Sep 2014, 10:49
things concern me at the moment in this crazy world.
Birmingham cant buy a win! Hey Mr Chairboys?
Sorry, I forgot there were more pressing issues than the break-up of the union.:lol:
Not the best of starts for you. Another long slog ahead, I fear.
Reds have had mixed fortunes, but the Chairboys have flown out of the blocks. I watched them against Bury recently. Though the 0-0 scoreline doesn't suggest a classic they played with real promotion potential.
Evil One
16 Sep 2014, 12:33
If they do leave then England will still keep baling them out, so they won't really have left anyway.
TheDoode
16 Sep 2014, 12:52
Independence is a great idea for Scotland; it's been under the shadow of Westminster for far too long. The two countries couldn't be more different - both with what they value and the social vibe. Emphasis on the arts. If Scotland can come up with a solid economic plan then it's definitely the right move to make.
Evil One
16 Sep 2014, 13:19
The whole thing is about political posturing. If they don't have a solid economic plan and it all goes tits up then England will end up stumping up the cash as a broken Scotland is no good for any of us. And our parliament likes giving money to foreign countries. :shrug:
TheDoode
16 Sep 2014, 13:33
Yep, but if it doesn't go 'tits up' then it was probably a good idea. Besides, it can't really go any more 'tits up' than England right now.
tonyloaf
16 Sep 2014, 15:51
let them do what ever they want, it still wont be sunny there :)
TheDoode
16 Sep 2014, 16:28
... it's sunny 'there' right now.
Sebastian.
16 Sep 2014, 17:15
... it's sunny 'there' right now.
Indeed, today is Scotland's annual day of summer.
TheDoode
16 Sep 2014, 17:20
It's been mostly sunny since May. In fact, it's been sunnier (here) than it has in most parts of England, this year.
The whole thing is about political posturing. If they don't have a solid economic plan and it all goes tits up then England will end up stumping up the cash as a broken Scotland is no good for any of us. And our parliament likes giving money to foreign countries. :shrug:
I agree with you about the politics .. This is the best and most articulate, reasoned and cogent thing I've seen written on the subject, and from a Scot, so perhaps carries more weight than anything I could say, for I am not a Scot so have no final voice in this proposal to dissolve the partnership between my country and Scotland in a blaze of what I see as somewhat misplaced patriotism.
"Well it's nearly here! The Referendum that could lead to Scotland divorcing from the UK. I am not a politician. I am a born and bred Scot living and working here and typing this on his phone from his bath. Sorry about the last bit.
Let's cut through the bullshit, the scaremongering (on both sides) and the dream selling. This is important. For our children's grandchildren and beyond.
All proud Scots want what is best for Scotland, so let's start by agreeing that on this we can agree.
Let's also agree that too many policies for too many years were 'made in London' and did not address Scotland's specific needs.
But we now have a Scottish Parliament and all parties agree that it will get more powers whatever the outcome. I believe that. Mr Salmond and SNP do deserve credit for getting Scotland's voice heard better than ever before in my lifetime. But the fact is that with our own parliament in place we can't keep blaming everything on Westminster. That's out of date. We already have many independent powers, with more to come. To move from a wish to secure these extra powers, to filing for full divorce, cannot be the right thing for Scotland.
We have a population about the size of Yorkshire's but over a much greater land mass to service with roads, small schools, hospitals etc. Our population is ageing faster than UK with a big pensions challenge ahead with a lot of gold plated public sector pensions in there. We have a relatively small tax base and we rely heavily on the public sector for employment and on one commodity.
Oil and gas is a valuable resource. The most optimistic forecast gives us 30 or 40 more years on the dipstick, the blink of an eye in the life of a nation. Yes, it may see today's politicians out, but they will not be around to deal with 'life after oil.' During that time the price may vary greatly. Up or down. We have no control.
Basing a 400 year decision on a 40 year resource of which we do not control the price does not make good sense. Short term-ism on a grand scale. It will take one hell of lot of wind and whisky to replace it.
The form of 'independence' that says 'We would like to share the pound in a formal union and the Bank of England can carry on setting the interest rates' defeats one of the main claimed benefits of independence..controlling one's own future. Interest rates would be set in a country made foreign by a yes vote, a country that no longer had any political or other motive for considering the interests of the 'independent' country north of the border no longer part of UK. This could really hurt us. This is the version of 'independence' that Mr Salmond claims to want for us. I just don't get it.
Talking of banks, if we were to divorce from UK, we would have no lender of last resort. We don't need long memories to sicken ourselves with the mess of the so called 'financial crisis'. I have another set of words for it: greed, lies, arrogance and more greed. But the fact is that our own Scottish institutions had their snouts in the trough along with the best of them and together they nearly brought the country to its knees. IF we had been independent at that time, Scotland Plc would have been bust. The Scottish taxpayer could not have underwritten the debt. We needed the financial strength of the Bank of England and the UK taxpayer to bail out RBS and others. It is a fool that believes that humans really learn from past mistakes... They go right out there and make all their own new ones. Would we like to go to Europe for our bail out if it were needed in the future. Greece is not having fun.
It strikes me as a peculiar form of 'independence' that wants to divorce from England, while at the same time get closer to Brussels. If one of the main complaints is feeling controlled by an unelected government, do we really want to swap London for Brussels? It seems to me that there is a hefty dose of 'anti English' being confused and dressed up as pro-independence. Pre- divorce proceedings are messy, and it saddens me that Scotland is going through its own version, whatever the outcome, with our three other partners in rest of UK.
I am a passionately proud Scot. Born here, schooled here. I've spent my life working here, investing in and promoting Scotland both in UK and abroad, and doing my best to provide good employment here. My children were born here and are schooling here. My point is, don't try and tell me that believing that being in a BETTER version of UK, which we can have, and staying part of the family with our Welsh, Irish and English friends somehow makes me un-patriotic or less Scottish. Please.
I know some, perhaps many will disagree with what I say. I respect your right to do so. But to those that do in turn I say respect my right and those that agree with me when I say with my heart and my head, let's stay together and work hard together to make Scotland an even greater part of Great Britain.
Over and out. Bath cold."
I cannot put the case for a No vote more eloquently, nor with better logic than this. It was written by the Chairman of one of the most internationally famous businesses in Scotland, one who is a Scot and passionate about his country, but believes the long term good of it is better served by staying and making Scotland an even greater part of Britain than by accepting the nationalistic fervour of politicians with a short term interest, who will be long gone when those short term views lie in the dust!
Independent, Scotland would have to move closer to the EC and would still be under the shadow of another ruling body imo .. Where I disagree with you Evil is that should they struggle financially a few decades down the road I do not see what remains of the UK bailing them out as you do. Even today we hear that the NHS in Scotland, over which they have had authority for some time now, is facing a huge budget deficit. After a successful YES vote they will have to manage that themselves.
I think it will be a close thing, but I hope the No vote carries the day
tonyloaf
16 Sep 2014, 17:55
i think what you see on the tv is a set up, its raining all the time
TheDoode
16 Sep 2014, 17:57
'Misplaced patriotism'? That's quite a statement.
If they do leave then England will still keep baling them out, so they won't really have left anyway.
I'm a No voter and proud to be British but when I read arrogant shit like this it makes me want to change my vote :angry:
i think what you see on the tv is a set up, its raining all the time
Its actually not. Not rained for almost two months :raspberry:
Indeed, today is Scotland's annual day of summer.
Good to see that everyone likes to have their wee digs.
You know, Scotland is one of the most beautiful countries you could ever visit and the people and the most welcoming so it would be nice to hear, maybe, something complimentary and positive...... unless you've not visited Scotland, then you can't complain about it.
I agree with you about the politics .. This is the best and most articulate, reasoned and cogent thing I've seen written on the subject, and from a Scot, so perhaps carries more weight than anything I could say, for I am not a Scot so have no final voice in this proposal to dissolve the partnership between my country and Scotland in a blaze of what I see as somewhat misplaced patriotism.
"Well it's nearly here! The Referendum that could lead to Scotland divorcing from the UK. I am not a politician. I am a born and bred Scot living and working here and typing this on his phone from his bath. Sorry about the last bit.
Let's cut through the bullshit, the scaremongering (on both sides) and the dream selling. This is important. For our children's grandchildren and beyond.
All proud Scots want what is best for Scotland, so let's start by agreeing that on this we can agree.
Let's also agree that too many policies for too many years were 'made in London' and did not address Scotland's specific needs.
But we now have a Scottish Parliament and all parties agree that it will get more powers whatever the outcome. I believe that. Mr Salmond and SNP do deserve credit for getting Scotland's voice heard better than ever before in my lifetime. But the fact is that with our own parliament in place we can't keep blaming everything on Westminster. That's out of date. We already have many independent powers, with more to come. To move from a wish to secure these extra powers, to filing for full divorce, cannot be the right thing for Scotland.
We have a population about the size of Yorkshire's but over a much greater land mass to service with roads, small schools, hospitals etc. Our population is ageing faster than UK with a big pensions challenge ahead with a lot of gold plated public sector pensions in there. We have a relatively small tax base and we rely heavily on the public sector for employment and on one commodity.
Oil and gas is a valuable resource. The most optimistic forecast gives us 30 or 40 more years on the dipstick, the blink of an eye in the life of a nation. Yes, it may see today's politicians out, but they will not be around to deal with 'life after oil.' During that time the price may vary greatly. Up or down. We have no control.
Basing a 400 year decision on a 40 year resource of which we do not control the price does not make good sense. Short term-ism on a grand scale. It will take one hell of lot of wind and whisky to replace it.
The form of 'independence' that says 'We would like to share the pound in a formal union and the Bank of England can carry on setting the interest rates' defeats one of the main claimed benefits of independence..controlling one's own future. Interest rates would be set in a country made foreign by a yes vote, a country that no longer had any political or other motive for considering the interests of the 'independent' country north of the border no longer part of UK. This could really hurt us. This is the version of 'independence' that Mr Salmond claims to want for us. I just don't get it.
Talking of banks, if we were to divorce from UK, we would have no lender of last resort. We don't need long memories to sicken ourselves with the mess of the so called 'financial crisis'. I have another set of words for it: greed, lies, arrogance and more greed. But the fact is that our own Scottish institutions had their snouts in the trough along with the best of them and together they nearly brought the country to its knees. IF we had been independent at that time, Scotland Plc would have been bust. The Scottish taxpayer could not have underwritten the debt. We needed the financial strength of the Bank of England and the UK taxpayer to bail out RBS and others. It is a fool that believes that humans really learn from past mistakes... They go right out there and make all their own new ones. Would we like to go to Europe for our bail out if it were needed in the future. Greece is not having fun.
It strikes me as a peculiar form of 'independence' that wants to divorce from England, while at the same time get closer to Brussels. If one of the main complaints is feeling controlled by an unelected government, do we really want to swap London for Brussels? It seems to me that there is a hefty dose of 'anti English' being confused and dressed up as pro-independence. Pre- divorce proceedings are messy, and it saddens me that Scotland is going through its own version, whatever the outcome, with our three other partners in rest of UK.
I am a passionately proud Scot. Born here, schooled here. I've spent my life working here, investing in and promoting Scotland both in UK and abroad, and doing my best to provide good employment here. My children were born here and are schooling here. My point is, don't try and tell me that believing that being in a BETTER version of UK, which we can have, and staying part of the family with our Welsh, Irish and English friends somehow makes me un-patriotic or less Scottish. Please.
I know some, perhaps many will disagree with what I say. I respect your right to do so. But to those that do in turn I say respect my right and those that agree with me when I say with my heart and my head, let's stay together and work hard together to make Scotland an even greater part of Great Britain.
Over and out. Bath cold."
I cannot put the case for a No vote more eloquently, nor with better logic than this. It was written by the Chairman of one of the most internationally famous businesses in Scotland, one who is a Scot and passionate about his country, but believes the long term good of it is better served by staying and making Scotland an even greater part of Britain than by accepting the nationalistic fervour of politicians with a short term interest, who will be long gone when those short term views lie in the dust!
Independent, Scotland would have to move closer to the EC and would still be under the shadow of another ruling body imo .. Where I disagree with you Evil is that should they struggle financially a few decades down the road I do not see what remains of the UK bailing them out as you do. Even today we hear that the NHS in Scotland, over which they have had authority for some time now, is facing a huge budget deficit. After a successful YES vote they will have to manage that themselves.
I think it will be a close thing, but I hope the No vote carries the day
You know, well said Caryl.........that about sums it up :up:
Well, we know the English will never manage it again but... Does this mean it takes another 100 years for someone British to win Wimbledon then? :twisted:
Good to see that everyone likes to have their wee digs.
You know, Scotland is one of the most beautiful countries you could ever visit and the people and the most welcoming so it would be nice to hear, maybe, something complimentary and positive...... unless you've not visited Scotland, then you can't complain about it.
Well guess what Gez, I'm going to post something complimentary about your country. ;)
I visited Edinburgh in the October of last year and although it rained for a large percentage of the time, that did not take away from the beauty of the places that I saw. I visited several attractions during my stay and encountered excellent customer service (far better than I experience in some cities in England) and everyone I had spoken to were both warm and friendly.
It would be a shame for the United Kingdom to lose Scotland if they voted yes, they have been a part of what has made the UK a great place.
Sebastian.
16 Sep 2014, 19:31
Good to see that everyone likes to have their wee digs.
You know, Scotland is one of the most beautiful countries you could ever visit and the people and the most welcoming so it would be nice to hear, maybe, something complimentary and positive...... unless you've not visited Scotland, then you can't complain about it.
Chill out, it's a joke about the weather.
If it came to it I'd take RAF Lossiemouth over RAF Marham.
Well guess what Gez, I'm going to post something complimentary about your country. ;)
I visited Edinburgh in the October of last year and although it rained for a large percentage of the time, that did not take away from the beauty of the places that I saw. I visited several attractions during my stay and encountered excellent customer service (far better than I experience in some cities in England) and everyone I had spoken to were both warm and friendly.
It would be a shame for the United Kingdom to lose Scotland if they voted yes, they have been a part of what has made the UK a great place.
I agree :D
You know, Scotland is one of the most beautiful countries you could ever visit and the people and the most welcoming so it would be nice to hear, maybe, something complimentary and positive...... unless you've not visited Scotland, then you can't complain about it.
It is indeed a beautiful country, from Lowlands to Highlands, the beaches, the islands, and I have always found the Scots friendly and welcoming .. and though I know the old Edinburgh saying .. "Welcome .. Come in .. You'll have had your tea?" ;) I have never found this to be fair or true :-)
chairboys
16 Sep 2014, 21:59
The four home nations are so inter-linked in all aspects of life that we could now, inexplicably, find the result decided by Mr. Breakov, the Latvian working on the Clyde. I hope her Majesty's 'impartial' words resonant with the electorate. Don't go!
Good to see that everyone likes to have their wee digs.
You know, Scotland is one of the most beautiful countries you could ever visit and the people and the most welcoming so it would be nice to hear, maybe, something complimentary and positive...... unless you've not visited Scotland, then you can't complain about it.
Yes well an englishman did say it ha ha, I'd say they're not that far away and their weather, not that much different.
Doesn't always have to be sunny for something to be nice ;)
Sent from my GT-I9197 using Forum Runner
meatloaf5
18 Sep 2014, 22:38
(This is said in jest, please don't take offence. It`s from a Sassenach :) )
If Scotland does get Independence, will their new currency be called "The Numpty"?
FWIW this Englishman hopes the Scotland WILL remain part of the UK. To misquote an American saying, there is "Economies in scale" meaning that bulk buying power gets things cheaper. Is Scotland goes Independent, both it and the UK will suffer.
Sebastian.
19 Sep 2014, 09:19
Woooo Scotland stays!
PanicLord
20 Sep 2014, 01:26
Woooo Scotland stays!
I am so glad too! I think each country within the Uk needs much more devolved power. But i do believe we are better together!
Monstro
20 Sep 2014, 04:41
I think each country within the Uk needs much more devolved power.
Yup, you're right, just as long as it isn't one country within the UK funding it.
TheDoode
20 Sep 2014, 10:25
The referendum was an important stepping stone for Scottish independence. It was a nice experiment to test the water, regardless of the result. Hopefully they'll use this time to develop their economic plan (which is happening), and not be backed into a corner over fear and propaganda from the opposition.
At the very least Westminster should be a little more sympathetic to the Scottish voice now, as they nearly lost a country and all.
Evil One
20 Sep 2014, 13:54
The referendum was an important stepping stone for Scottish independence.
No. The referendum demonstrated that the majority of Scots don't want independence and that should be the end of the matter.
TheDoode
20 Sep 2014, 14:34
No. The referendum demonstrated that the majority of Scots don't want independence and that should be the end of the matter.
Nice try ;)
No. The referendum demonstrated that the majority of Scots don't want independence and that should be the end of the matter.
I agree it should be the end of the matter in terms of splitting from the UK, certainly for many years anyway (by which time the oil and gas reserves, which formed the basis imo of much of the belief that Scotland as an independant country would be a significantly viable proposition was based, will be near to or have reached depletion. They voted by a small majority not to be an independent country, which to me makes most economic sense.
It would be true to say it heralds a stepping stone to more autonomy. They have been promised more independence in terms of autonomy/decision making, which also makes sense to me .. just as it seems fair that parliament moves to a position where MPs for Scotland do not vote on matters for England for which they have legislative control over in Scotland (and indeed this peinciple should apply to those for Wales and Northern Ireland). National autonomy should be a two way street I think ;)
Last time we had a referendum I wasn't old enough to vote, but I highly doubt we'd have another one for years
Sent from my GT-I9197 using Forum Runner
TheDoode
20 Sep 2014, 19:29
Let's flip this. Can I ask why so many of you believe that Scotland SHOULD remain a part of the UK? A lot of opinions here have come across as snide and snarky, and especially derogatory towards Scots and Scotland. Ignoring the current referendum result (which is by no means the 'end of it'), I'd be interested to know why so many people are passionate to keep Scotland as a part of the UK. I don't have a point to prove or an opinion to change (unlike most here it'd seem), But I am genuinely interested.
I speak as one who has made no snide, snarky or derogatory comments about Scotland or the Scots, and who has expressed an opinion not to change any other, nor to prove a point, but simply to voice my own in a thread on a topic that has a significant relevance to everyone in the UK I think.
My maternal grandmother was Irish, my father's grandfather a Scot, and I am named after a relative who was born in Wales. I am a citizen of the United Kingdom, I am British, I was born in England, so I am English. To me every part of the UK is the country which at its best I am proud to be part of, and to which I owe my allegiance. I love Scotland as country, respect its traditions and culture, embrace it as one of our diverse nations that make up the UK, have never felt nor been made to feel a foreigner when I visit, and many of my closest friends are Scots. That is why at an emotional level I very much wanted Scotland to stay as part of my country.
At a logical level I wanted them to remain because as the UK we exist mainly on two islands, as Britain we are principally one small island, and to start breaking that up would diminish all of us on the world stage I think. Diversity in culture to me is not sufficient reason to break a union; one can argue that there are significant differences between so many regions of the UK, just as there are in the USA, and the moves we have made towards embracing both a a central and a regional tier of government make sense to me, and should continue. I believe it makes sense as far as Scotland is concerned for all the reasons in my earlier post which were expressed by a Scot with an eloquence and clarity I could not better, was sent to me by one of my closest friends, a Scot, and thus quoted.
TheDoode
20 Sep 2014, 22:13
I enjoyed reading that response, Caryl; it was very measured and fair.
Living in Scotland myself, though not being a Scot admittedly, I also have friends (in Stirling, Edinburgh, Glasgow, the Highlands, etc.) across a range of ages (from students to fifties, mostly). One of them is an actor who's done pretty well for himself these last few years. I don't know if it'll surprise any of you, but none of them were amongst the no's. I think one thing worth bearing in mind for all non-Scots is that Scotland always was an independent land, before the English invaded. You might think that that's irrelevant these days, but I can assure you - from the belly of the beast - that it's no more irrelevant than slavery to a lot of Scots.
England has made a lot of mistakes over the past fifteen years. Westminster is running an already stretched economy into the ground. Is there any wonder a large percentage of Scottish residents welcomed independence?
I think one thing worth bearing in mind for all non-Scots is that Scotland always was an independent land, before the English invaded. You might think that that's irrelevant these days, but I can assure you - from the belly of the beast - that it's no more irrelevant than slavery to a lot of Scots.
I would never dismiss it as irrelevant, but perhaps the belly of the beast is not the best place from which to make a decision that has to endure for centuries
England has made a lot of mistakes over the past fifteen years. Westminster is running an already stretched economy into the ground. Is there any wonder a large percentage of Scottish residents welcomed independence?
Not if it would give them a sound long-term financial and economic base, and they too were free of the greed that has driven the politics of Westminster, and the many issues that have driven the UK economy into the ground, and also that of so many countries .. but I think that seems far from certain. RBS needed to be bailed out, and there is a frighteningly large current deficit on the health budget which was passed to their control. Negotiating with the EU is not easy for a country of 64m .. for a country of 6m I suspect it would be even more difficult.
TheDoode
21 Sep 2014, 10:58
I would never dismiss it as irrelevant, but perhaps the belly of the beast is not the best place from which to make a decision that has to endure for centuries
I would strongly disagree on this one, and say that it's the perfect place.
Not if it would give them a sound long-term financial and economic base, and they too were free of the greed that has driven the politics of Westminster, and the many issues that have driven the UK economy into the ground, and also that of so many countries .. but I think that seems far from certain. RBS needed to be bailed out, and there is a frighteningly large current deficit on the health budget which was passed to their control. Negotiating with the EU is not easy for a country of 64m .. for a country of 6m I suspect it would be even more difficult.
I do, however, agree with this. And I think it's this that turned a lot of Scots at the eleventh hour. The proposed economic plan needed a LOT more development time, and a SERIOUS amount of thought and work put into it (if it were to convince a nation that the country could sustain itself and, more importantly - grow, in the future in an independent way to Westminster and the rest of the UK).
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