A brief rant about fandom and one's place in it

[letsgotoofar]

It seems to me that lately the subject of fandom and what being a fan means, which from my reading has frequently been discussed on these forums, is under the microscope again. (And, not to put too fine a point on it, I'm usually getting the brunt of the complaint this time around.)

Among the things I've noticed is that, even when I bend over backwards to be diplomatic, to say positive things, to try to speculate as to a logical reason why someone would say something that isn't 100% true about their work (and why it's not a failing to do so), people are reading negativity and an agenda into the things I (and others) say. After seeing a few too many responses leaning in this direction, it sort of wore on me a bit, so I thought I'd just put my tuppence out there as to what being a fan means to me.

To me, fandom is about love, obsession, passion, admiration, rapt attention, and blathering on and on about details the average person would find trivial and uninteresting. For some, that may mean micro-analyzing what the majority would consider tiny details. For others, that may mean arguing into the wee hours of the morning about the relative merits of one album versus another. For most, it can be about feeling that exquisite little deep-shine shiver and chills when one's favorite song hits that magic moment.

It takes many forms, and aside from taking great pains to be supportive, respectful, and constructive in expressing it, it's a good thing that not everybody approaches fandom the same way. The world would be boring if everyone thought, spoke, acted, etc., exactly the same as the next person over.

I want to be clear: I'm not being negative, nor is it my intention to be negative, in pointing out things other people don't feel like looking at, or don't feel are important to look at. It's just another viewpoint, to contemplate or dismiss as one wishes. You may read your own thoughts into what I do, but as I'm the one doing the do, I think I know my motivation slightly better than you do. (Call me crazy if you must!) I don't really give a toss what you think of that, just as you have the right not to give a toss about anything I say. In all honesty, as the great Rita Moreno once said, you don't die from not being liked.

I came here to bond and commune in appreciation with fellow Meat Loaf fans, to share in the happiness that comes with loving one of my favorite artists. For me, that may not mean loving everything Meat does, or even believing everything he says, but having fun talking about it and sometimes even -- gasp! -- debating about it. And, if one is being completely honest to themselves and others, I think that's equally true for all of us.

I'm sorry that the way I express my fandom doesn't come across in the same fashion that your fandom for him does, but I'm not going to stop expressing it that way just because some of you think I'm being negative. Any attempt to dictate the terms and conditions of someone's love for an artist, beyond requiring that one be respectful and constructive in stating their opinion, defeats the point of being a fan community.

No two fans are alike. And it would be wise to keep that in mind before leaping to criticize and accuse others. I know you're all smarting from the negativity of a very vocal minority, but that doesn't mean everyone who seems to be coming even remotely close to criticism is out to "get" Meat. The warning at the top of the main discussion forums says:

As a forum dedicated to an artist who, along with various band members, contributes to this forum, we encourage honest opinion, debate, and constructive criticism. We ask that this should be done in a respectful manner which should also be afforded to each and every forum member.

Emphasis mine. ;)

Thank you for your time and attention.

[ThatWriterGuy]

Enjoyed reading that post, but man, for someone who works in musical theater -- your timing really does suck :-p

In the past I've been more than a little vocal about aspects of performances and records that I didn't particularly like, and I've encouraged people to let others have their say, just as you are now, as long it's respectful and it doesn't devolve into blatant all out trolling.

Disclaimer out of the way, look at where we are right now: it's new album release week, which is ongoing. It's Meat's FINAL album. He's suffering from a serious medical condition. And this is the end of a 40 year career in music.

You know that he's going to read whatever is written on this forum over the coming couple of weeks, and you know that he isn't going to take constant criticism at all well (despite, what I'm sure are, the best intentions of the poster). There are plenty of people who've said that they're not a fan of the album -- no issue there -- but attempting to 'call out' things that he has said in the past, especially something that's incredibly sensitive for him at the minute, well -- is that really how you want Meat to end his career in music?

I know that I don't.

You should have the right to discuss all of the above and more, generally speaking, but like I said at the beginning -- your timing really sucks.

There's a time and a place for anal, in depth criticism -- I just don't think that it's 'here and now' :cool:

[CarylB]

We've been through this many, many times. It's a two way street. So yes, some will microanalyse, some will find it tedious or irrelevant. Rant if you're accused of being an idol-worshipping sycophant, or a Meat hating trouble-maker, but expect others to disagree with you whether you're supporting or criticising Meat, because it has ever been so. And expect passion to be felt wherever people are coming from.

And the warning at the top of every page was added to this site after yet another protracted debate about treating Meat with respect and some gentleness towards his feelings ;) Yes, it applies to all members, but it came about largely because of the way he was so often addressed, debated etc This is a rather special fan forum, where the artist is a member and comes here and talks, answers questions etc And we know how much his work is part of who and what he is. He doesn't have a "thick skin" .. something that is rather special imo as this contributes to the passion he has and that he instills in his work and in those of us who love and support him.



But mainly this:

You know that he's going to read whatever is written on this forum over the coming couple of weeks, and you know that he isn't going to take constant criticism at all well (despite, what I'm sure are, the best intentions of the poster). There are plenty of people who've said that they're not a fan of the album -- no issue there -- but attempting to 'call out' things that he has said in the past, especially something that's incredibly sensitive for him at the minute, well -- is that really how you want Meat to end his career in music?

[letsgotoofar]

Enjoyed reading that post, but man, for someone who works in musical theater -- your timing really does suck :-p

If you say so. I don't write it, I just produce it. There's never a bad time to raise money except for an economic crisis, and even then people roll the dice. Never said I was great at the creative bit. (My team, however, I will stand by until my dying breath is drawn.)

In the past I've been more than a little vocal about aspects of performances and records that I didn't particularly like, and I've encouraged people to let others have their say, just as you are now, as long it's respectful and it doesn't devolve into blatant all out trolling.

I'm glad to hear that, especially considering some of the responses I've been getting. It's not like I shat in a bag, lit it on fire, and left it on his doorstep, for crying out loud. (Heh heh... see what I did there?)

Disclaimer out of the way, look at where we are right now: it's new album release week, which is ongoing. It's Meat's FINAL album. He's suffering from a serious medical condition. And this is the end of a 40 year career in music.

You know that he's going to read whatever is written on this forum over the coming couple of weeks, and you know that he isn't going to take constant criticism at all well (despite, what I'm sure are, the best intentions of the poster).

Yes, but when has he ever? Look back over the history of this forum and you'll find plenty of times where he's ripped people a new arsehole for things as small as saying they like an album of his that he doesn't, or pointing out something he doesn't like being pointed out. I would also hasten to add that, at least from where I'm sitting and reading, the criticism is far from constant; the vast majority of people on this forum are very considerate of his feelings, and take great pains to suppress or minimize any negativity they do have to offer. Some of us are a little more vocal about it, but speaking purely for myself, I have never worded it in any terms less than respectful and understanding of his position.

There are plenty of people who've said that they're not a fan of the album -- no issue there -- but attempting to 'call out' things that he has said in the past, especially something that's incredibly sensitive for him at the minute, well -- is that really how you want Meat to end his career in music?

I know that I don't.

Is it incredibly sensitive for him at the minute, though? He's not performing live, so no punters are posting drive-by anonymous flames on the Internet. The vast majority of the reviews for the album in the trades and on the forum are positive, and talk about how much he accomplishes and how great a piece of work it is. For not being able to put a lot of effort into promotion due to health reasons, it is selling very well and being very well-received. I wouldn't be particularly sensitive about a few negative comments if the wheel was largely rolling down the track the way one hoped it would, better even, especially in a market where albums are no longer a commodity.

As for "calling him out," I didn't. At all. I shared an opinion that maybe he wasn't telling the whole truth about something, and in the same breath explained why it didn't matter, why he was (probably) saying it, and expressed that the people likely responsible for his saying it were awful shits for needling him on that point so often that he felt the need to respond defensively. It's not as though I said he was a monster for saying it, or called him a liar. Calling someone out is throwing down a gauntlet, most likely in a very disrespectful manner, and calling for a direct response; by comparison, I said, "Eh, the album doesn't sound sped up to me, the statement is kind of new on his part, and I think it stems from hurt pride, but I get why he said it, and I wish people would stop being so dickish that he feels compelled to say things like that." Hardly the same thing. He may have strong words for me if/when he reads what I say, I don't know, but I think I'd rather hear it from him than catch flack from people I feel are overreacting.

Also, here's a newsflash no one is contemplating: discussion is going to continue well after Meat's career is finished! How novel! People will say things he likes or doesn't like until the end of time for which he first prayed in 1977. He's ending his career in music, sure, but the discussion is far from over. The song remains the same, as Led Zeppelin put it. There's little point in changing the direction of discussion if that is where discussion will eventually center again anyway when the dust clears. If anything, we owe it to him to be the same loyal, chaotic bunch that put the "fun" in "dysfunctional" and discuss it however we feel appropriate, so long as it is respectful and constructive. Deep down, 'thin skin' or no, he expects nothing less from us, I feel.

You should have the right to discuss all of the above and more, generally speaking, but like I said at the beginning -- your timing really sucks.

There's a time and a place for anal, in depth criticism -- I just don't think that it's 'here and now' :cool:

I will respectfully disagree. I feel that I've handled the matter to the best of my ability not to step on Meat's toes or annoy him; time will tell if I am right, but the peanut gallery really doesn't matter because fans will agree or disagree for the rest of their lives. As long as he and band members post here, to the extent that my statements impact them, what matters is how they feel about what I say. In my opinion. ;)

[ThatWriterGuy]

Hey, do what you gotta do, Gib. I'll leave it between you and the mods, as I don't have the time/energy/inclination to repeat this message over and over again, especially when the point (that you seem to have missed entirely -- or ignored) is there, in plain language, for all to see.

It's not my job to 'moderate' you (thank f&$! !!).

Like I said, there's a time and a place. In the end I'm only trying to save you from yourself (c'mon -- you know where the above path leads -- it ain't gonna last).


A few months ago I tried to open a door and even things out here.

There's a balancing act that makes this place work. It was working really well for a while.

I should've shut the damn thing behind me.

[letsgotoofar]

Hey, do what you gotta do, Gib. I'll leave it between you and the mods, as I don't have the time/energy/inclination to repeat this message over and over again, especially when the point (that you seem to have missed entirely -- or ignored) is there, in plain language, for all to see.

It's not my job to 'moderate' you (thank f&$! !!).

Like I said, there's a time and a place. In the end I'm only trying to save you from yourself (c'mon -- you know where the above path leads -- it ain't gonna last).

Only one way to find out.

A few months ago I tried to open a door and even things out here.

There's a balancing act that makes this place work. It was working really well for a while.

I should've shut the damn thing behind me.

I'm sorry you regret it. I think it was a wise thing to do, and I think the forum is better off for it.

[GDW]

I think Jim would like this thread. There are more words on it than one of his songs.:-)

[ThatWriterGuy]

That genuinely made me laugh :cool:

[stretch37]

If you say so. I don't write it, I just produce it. There's never a bad time to raise money except for an economic crisis, and even then people roll the dice. Never said I was great at the creative bit. (My team, however, I will stand by until my dying breath is drawn.)


U tryin to raise money here? lol


the vast majority of people on this forum are very considerate of his feelings, and take great pains to suppress or minimize any negativity they do have to offer.


The people on here are considerate of *each other's* feelings, including Meat's, because he is a member here.


Some of us are a little more vocal about it, but speaking purely for myself, I have never worded it in any terms less than respectful and understanding of his position.


What i have learned about being 'vocal' about 'it' is to expect an equal or greater response. If you're going to be critical, expect some criticism coming your way as well.


Is it incredibly sensitive for him at the minute, though? He's not performing live, so no punters are posting drive-by anonymous flames on the Internet.


This is one of those judgements where you can expect a criticism. I, however, really don't feel like arguing ;)



For not being able to put a lot of effort into promotion due to health reasons, it is selling very well and being very well-received.


I don't mean to be insulting at all, but is English your first language? Or perhaps you're just being a little careless with your wording on a forum where Meat will inevitably read what you write, along with some of his peers and friends. "not being able to put a lot of effort into promotion".

Meat has been working his ASS off promoting this record for the last two weeks straight while he can barely stand.


I wouldn't be particularly sensitive about a few negative comments if the wheel was largely rolling down the track the way one hoped it would


You don't know Meat very well then do you? lol

He hates criticism that's not constructive. Have you read the negative reviews? Some of them make ME want to peel my skin off, and I'm not even the performer on the record.


As for "calling him out," I didn't. At all. I shared an opinion that maybe he wasn't telling the whole truth about something,


That is the definition of calling someone out. :?


and in the same breath explained why it didn't matter, why he was (probably) saying it, and expressed that the people likely responsible for his saying it were awful shits for needling him on that point so often that he felt the need to respond defensively. It's not as though I said he was a monster for saying it, or called him a liar. Calling someone out is throwing down a gauntlet, most likely in a very disrespectful manner, and calling for a direct response; by comparison, I said, "Eh, the album doesn't sound sped up to me, the statement is kind of new on his part, and I think it stems from hurt pride, but I get why he said it, and I wish people would stop being so dickish that he feels compelled to say things like that." Hardly the same thing. He may have strong words for me if/when he reads what I say, I don't know, but I think I'd rather hear it from him than catch flack from people I feel are overreacting.


The only one I see over-reacting is you. :twisted: You seem more judgemental than the next 10 people combined. Who did you come here to argue with? Everyone?


Also, here's a newsflash no one is contemplating: discussion is going to continue well after Meat's career is finished! How novel! People will say things he likes or doesn't like until the end of time for which he first prayed in 1977. He's ending his career in music, sure, but the discussion is far from over. The song remains the same, as Led Zeppelin put it. There's little point in changing the direction of discussion if that is where discussion will eventually center again anyway when the dust clears. If anything, we owe it to him to be the same loyal, chaotic bunch that put the "fun" in "dysfunctional" and discuss it however we feel appropriate, so long as it is respectful and constructive. Deep down, 'thin skin' or no, he expects nothing less from us, I feel.


I think you'll find that most of the people on here disagree with you. We are all enjoying a rather "chaoticless" and "dysfuncitonless" and "fun" period in time on this forum where most of us are rising above the usual drama and just living in the moment that Braver Than We Are has provided us. We're experiencing this with Meat has he travels and does his interviews, and then chats with us in between. We have some members here with wonderufl connections and insight and we get to hear a little about how Jim Steinman feels about the album, as well as band members and others. It is a wonderful time.

So you can agree with me when I say that adding a shit load of criticism and judgement to Meat right now and stirring an age old pot on these forums is not great timing, nor will it sit well with 99% of the members at this point in time.

Maybe you didn't know that before, so I am just saying it now in hopes that we can maybe redirect this conversation to a later time.


I will respectfully disagree. I feel that I've handled the matter to the best of my ability not to step on Meat's toes or annoy him;


I respectfully disagree :twisted:

Look, think you have made some points that are both insightful and important. But I agree with ThatWriterGuy and others who have said that it is not the time or place. And I don't mean that as a judgement! You are new here, and you don't know this forum yet, and it is the existing members' job to help guide you along.

I hope that that is OK with you. I think once you have learned your way around, you will begin to feel comfortable with how to word things on here so as to not receive the same negative response as you have gotten lately.

I think the main issue has to do with word choice - and again - I didn't mean it as an insult asking about language at all. There are a few things that came to mind when I read your post:

a) You came here to say whatever you want to say. Many new members (Myself included back in the day :twisted::twisted:) feel like they should be able to say whatever they want about Meat Loaf and this forum in great detail, and receive literally NO criticism. That's not how this world works. There are real people here, including Meat Loaf. Expect a conversation and lots of opinions on all of your opinions.

b) Perhaps English is not your first language, and you're not choosing such harsh words on purpose? I have found your word choices to be somewhat careless and indusive to the kind of criticism you are receiving. E.g. "For not being able to put a lot of effort into promotion due to health reasons". Saying Meat has put "no effort" in is just rude considering the hell he is putting himself through with the rigorous media promotion tour currently underway.

[letsgotoofar]

Let me rephrase that: "not as much effort as he could be putting out were he in better health." I'm sure it's painful to sit through interviews and interact with fans, especially when one is in poor health. Hell, I'm not sick, and I'm finding the latter pretty damn painful myself. (ba-dum-tish) But in all seriousness, your words have been taken into account, whether or not you see any evidence of that to follow. :)

If we want to get right to the root of things, it just bothers me a bit that -- balanced though it has become -- I look back over the posts in this place (I always read any community I join in depth to gauge how it works), and what I see is that historically this place has been a great place to discuss, but it's also been overrun quite literally by what I call "the happiness patrol." There have been times when not one remark went by un-moderated unless it was "I love you Meat Loaf squeeeeeeeee you're the best!!!!" It has grown into something slightly more balanced, and I'm watching that kind of slide out the window a bit in the wake of this album's release. Sometimes I may word things a little too forcefully, but I really think what I'm saying shouldn't rock the boat too seriously. But I've been wrong before.

[AndrewG]

Among the things I've noticed is that, even when I bend over backwards to be diplomatic, to say positive things, to try to speculate as to a logical reason why someone would say something that isn't 100% true about their work (and why it's not a failing to do so), people are reading negativity and an agenda into the things I (and others) say. After seeing a few too many responses leaning in this direction, it sort of wore on me a bit, so I thought I'd just put my tuppence out there as to what being a fan means to me.


OTHER'S are the ones reading negativity in things?
Oh really?


It's nice to dream, but as John Lennon said in 1970, "The dream is over." I do, however, find it interesting that people are rushing to fantasize about another Steinman-written album performed by Meat when we are currently watching one explode onto the market. Not gonna lie, it does make me question the rush to give positive reviews to Braver and whether some people here are more underwhelmed with the current album than they're willing to express. Wish fulfillment fantasies often arise from such things...

[Wario]

..... HOW DO I READ ALL THIS WITHOUT PICTURES.

[letsgotoofar]

OTHER'S are the ones reading negativity in things?
Oh really?

I call that a natural response to people who've just been given a Meat/Steinman album and almost immediately start fantasizing about another one. As a producer, my first thought is, "Hmm. Would they be doing that if they were satisfied with the album?" I deal with the possibility of marketing product on a constant basis, so of course my first thought is to determine why this was the response after a brief period of reviewing the album. You view that as negative. I view that as saying, "Okay, guys, fun to discuss, but let's be real, it's probably not gonna happen," and then going on to wonder aloud what caused it. I didn't know I wasn't allowed to do that.

[AndrewG]

..... HOW DO I READ ALL THIS WITHOUT PICTURES.

This animated gif of a cat chasing a POST on its tail explains things perfectly.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/OcJgyOip3eqD6/200w.gif

[AndrewG]

I call that a natural response to people who've just been given a Meat/Steinman album and almost immediately start fantasizing about another one. As a producer, my first thought is, "Hmm. Would they be doing that if they were satisfied with the album?" I deal with the possibility of marketing product on a constant basis, so of course my first thought is to determine why this was the response after a brief period of reviewing the album. You view that as negative. I view that as saying, "Okay, guys, fun to discuss, but let's be real, it's probably not gonna happen," and then going on to wonder aloud what caused it. I didn't know I wasn't allowed to do that.

Well then.... if there is an explanation of why it looks like you are viewing things negatively then there probably are explanations why others view your posts negativity as well.

[letsgotoofar]

Well then.... if there is an explanation of why it looks like you are viewing things negatively then there probably are explanations why others view your posts negativity as well.

Well, I'd ~~~~in' love to hear it, 'cause I keep explaining myself (something I don't need to do, btw, but people seem to misconstrue what I say and I want to be understood) and it seems like it goes in one ear and out the other.

[CarylB]

.... what I see is that historically this place has been a great place to discuss, but it's also been overrun quite literally by what I call "the happiness patrol." There have been times when not one remark went by un-moderated unless it was "I love you Meat Loaf squeeeeeeeee you're the best!!!!" It has grown into something slightly more balanced, and I'm watching that kind of slide out the window a bit in the wake of this album's release. Sometimes I may word things a little too forcefully, but I really think what I'm saying shouldn't rock the boat too seriously. But I've been wrong before.

And that's a perfect example of the kind of sarcastic exaggeration when describing those here who seek to support rather than criticise and pick apart that offends and irritates as much as you seem to be.

And all I can hear i my head now are the first lines of Two Out of Three

[letsgotoofar]

Take some time, read the forum archives from its inception (I'm up to about Bat III at present), and then tell me I'm wrong. It's... it's not sarcasm.

[anotherday]

*facedeskfacedeskfacedesk*

[letsgotoofar]

*facedeskfacedeskfacedesk*

You know, you could opt not to read it instead of being disrespectful and non-constructive.

[CarylB]

Take some time, read the forum archives from its inception.

Take some time? I don't need to. I have lived and posted through it. You joined 5 minutes ago. Need no instruction on consuming eggs, thanks ;) "not one remark went by un-moderated unless it was "I love you Meat Loaf squeeeeeeeee you're the best!!!!" IS both an exaggeration, and sarcastic in my book (I have never seen squeeeeeeeee you're the best" posted), and is exactly the kind of thing I referred to at the start. Those who love and support Meat, who enjoy everything he gives us because they consider him a unique artist, and have come here to a fan forum are not all idol-worshipping sycophants, just as those who criticise his work are not necessarily Meat hating trouble-makers.

But just as some will disagree with those who support Meat, and with those who unconditionally support him, and the latter have to take that, you need to expect others to disagree with you when you're criticising him, and take that on the chin. I don't think anyone has been unreasonable towards you when disagreeing, certainly not to make you feel some kind of victim. Disagreeing with your comments is not disallowing them; suggesting this isn't the best time for people to imply something Meat has said for years is not true, isn't disallowing anything .. just an opinion and some advice.

But imply for eg that Meat hasn't put himself out to promote this album .. that is going to make some of us go WTF? Have you not seen him working his ass off? Make comments like that and you arguably need to grow a pair ;)

[anotherday]

You know, you could opt not to read it instead of being disrespectful and non-constructive.

Settle down bub. No need to feel like you can dish it but can't take it.

<3

[Monstro]

Only one way to find out.



:lock:

I'm not convinced this thread was started to promote a discussion rather than promote an argument and it's heading in one direction only. Trolling isn't allowed and is dealt with according to the forum rules.