View Full Version : Verbal abuse
In another thread tbuck posted:
Life is not bowl of cherries... We all have our crosses to bear.
We are all different and to call a Mod over words? Get over yourselves...
Of course one's perspective tends to get coloured depending on the size of cross one is expected to haul up the Calvary of the forum .. and "words" are precisely what this forum consists of, and what this is all about. In the past few days I have been described as:
demented old bag
sycophantic
unhealthy
sad
having withdrawal symptoms
on my third bottle of gin
witchfinder general
sergeant burton
the thought police
not having a life
raving "psycophantically"
an obsessed lunatic
should be certified
bull shitting
Caryl b (b is for bollocks)
someone who would hound radio stations "like she does" to get a CD of Meat's farts played
using Meat Loaf shower gel and toothpaste
kissing Meat's arse
someone Dean ~~~~~~~~~~ wouldn't piss on were he on fire (this last I am actually thankful for .. :) )
And all of this because I defend Meat, challenge derogatory comments about him (without using abusive language), support him 100% .. I'm a fan, this is a fansite dedicated to Meat .. it's what I do, and in my humble opinion a place where one should be able to do just that, without fear of attack and verbal abuse for so doing.
I don't expect my life to be a bowl of cherries .. indeed it has not been one. However, I see no reason why I should be expected to stand silent and patient while I am consistently abused verbally by a few people for expressing opinions, coherently, articulately and without abusing others, particularly when these opinions are often shared by people who are not attacked in the same way for holding and expressing them.
Shadow recently posted:
Here is something I don't understand. Bruce is saying that his words get twisted and that everyone should watch their posts because of Caryl and her "cronies" yet it seems to me that it's Caryl and her "cronies" who should watch their posts. From what I've seen, everytime Caryl posts or starts a thread, her words are twisted and she is attacked for being a very loyal fan. Some of us are extremely loyal and we are like that in all aspects of our life and that extends into everything we do. I am a very loyal Meat Loaf fan and I am very loyal to all my friends, does that mean I am an a**kisser?
I think she hit the nail on the head. Probably in a few people's eyes this does mean that she is an a**kisser .. the main difference is that she will probably not get called that, whilst I have come to expect that I in all likelihood will. So forgive me if I tire of bearing the cross to which you refer, but also note that I will continue to post in support of Meat.
And if that makes me sad, obsessed and sycophantic .. well I believe I am in good company, and in company whose loyalty to Meat I value and respect ... and frankly I have neither for those who name call and verbally abuse me, or anyone else in this forum.
I do have great respect for a Moderator who makes it clear that such behaviour is not acceptable. As others have agreed, it is unpleasant behaviour, unnecessary and discouraging.
sharon1248
30 Nov 2003, 08:04
Caryl, it seems to me that people feel free to say rotten things in a net forum that they would never say to a person's face. I have wondered if they don't realize that there is another person with feelings on the receiving end of those personal comments. Typing off a mean word or two just doesn't seem to be insulting a real person. If they are talking that same trash in person...bet they spend a lot of time either alone or in bandages. :roll:
And if that makes me sad, obsessed and sycophantic .. well I believe I am in good company, and in company whose loyalty to Meat I value and respect ... and frankly I have neither for those who name call and verbally abuse me, or anyone else in this forum.
Well, that having been said, let me say that I personally value and respect all life. What the problem is, and I know this to be a fact, people would rather just give up on strong passions for Meat rather than tread through the sludge of wisecracks and preaching they will endure if they post something that is not 100% in line with some people's beliefs.
There are two obvious schools of thought on this board:
1. People who are all about the Meat Loaf lifestyle
2. People who are all about Meat Loaf
I know for a fact that I fit squarely into a Type 1 personality, and would venture to say that CarylB would fit squarely into a Type 2 personality.
With my theory laid out on the table, let me attempt to lay out the situation as I see it. I will take the statement from Kev that was something to the effect that "Meat Loaf is looking old." Kev is very much a Type 1 personality on this board. Type 1 personalities love the music Meat Loaf makes, they love the projects he is involved with, but can also be somewhat critical of him (if need be).
Kev's critical point was that he believed Meat was looking old, which is a valid point. He never said anything critical (i.e., Meat Loaf looks too old to rock or Meat Loaf looks too old to be singing anymore), all he said was that Meat Loaf looked old at the press conference.
CarylB tends to be a Type 2 personality on this board. The Type 2 personalities tend to love Meat Loaf (the man), would rather chat about what he was wearing during a concert than the set list - they are more about the celebrity known as Meat Loaf rather than everything that surrounds it. (I know this explanation may be a little off, but this is how I see it).
As a Type 2 personality on this board, CarylB took offence to the fact that Kev (Type 1 personality) made the statement that Meat Loaf was looking old and CarlyB defended Meat Loaf by saying something to the effect of "He is 56, so what is your point."
The problem is...A Type 1 versus Type 2 Meat Loaf fan disagreement will always, 110%, without fail, and with absolution end up in a vicious cycle of downward spiral to the "Fight Club."
I know that my discovery of Type 1 and Type 2 personalities has just recently surfaced. I have made a personal resolution to myself that I know nothing productive will ever come of me (a Type 1 personality) disagreeing with any of the Type 2 personalities not only on this board, but also in other places on the Internet and further into the "real life" world of Meat Loaf fandom.
I know there are some things that, as a Type 1 personality, that I come up with that will make Type 2 personality people shiver. I know that some of what the Type 2 personalities come up with make me (as a Type 1 personality) shiver.
Thing is, I am working really hard and asking God everyday for the guidance and wisdom to allow concepts and ideas that the Type 2 personalities come up with to just roll off my back and not get me all in a funk.
As a Type 1 personality Meat Loaf fan, I am standing here to make a public statement of recognition that I am fully aware I have issues in dealing with the differences between my personal beliefs and opinions as a Type 1 personality and the personal thoughts and personal beliefs of the Type 2 personalities in the Meat Loaf universe.
My early New Year's resolution is, to be way more tolerant with this matter, both online and in the real-world.
ROCK ON MEAT LOAF FANS!!!!
To me, that's not the point. See... I don't care which type or who said what. It's not about persons. e.g. if Meat does it, it's equally wrong.
As long as you're not abusive yourself, you don't deserve to be verbally abused.
I see verbal abuse in a lot of topics. To me, that takes the fun out of it. That makes this forum no longer a nice place to hang out.
I would NEVER accept name-calling on my forum. Never. Unacceptable. It is not giving an opinion, its plain rude.
Now, I'm just a member here, I don't make the rules, but if this name-calling won't stop, I'm gone.
There should be absolutely no verbal abuse at all on this forum. I work as a guard for the Railways and if any of us are subjected to verbal abuse not just physical, the company I work for presses charges and has the offender prosecuted. It doesn't matter what "TYPE" of Meat fan you are, there is no "TYPE" of fan. I love Meat for his Music and for himself as a whole, and I'm male. Everyone has a right what to say but some go too far. Remeber this is the "Meat Loaf Fan Club" site not the "Lets Have A Pop At Meat" site. If people want to have a go at what Meat sings like, what Meat looks like, what Meat has for breakfast, go and do it somewhere else, cause I don't just think it is just myself who is sick of hearing all these childish remarks. Caryl b is not obsesive, she has a passion for Meat, like most of us in this forum, that's why we are here. We don't just listen to his music and like it, it is something about Meat that we love and like along with his music and acting abilities. That's all for me to say now. And please, no childish remarks and replies from those persistent offenders, because frankly, I don't care what you say. :D
[quote="CarylB"]
And all of this because I defend Meat, challenge derogatory comments about him (without using abusive language), support him 100% .. I'm a fan, this is a fansite dedicated to Meat .. it's what I do, and in my humble opinion a place where one should be able to do just that, without fear of attack and verbal abuse for so doing. quote]
Hear, hear Caryl. If people take offence at you showing appreciation for meat - raving about the music, the man himself and so on - why are they here? The word fan is an abbreviation of 'fanatic' - we are fanatical about him and so if they don't want a degree of so-called 'ass kissing' why visit a fan site???
Well, for me, it's not about that or what kind of fan you are. I like discussions and I don't mind critisism towards Meat if it is just about not liking a show or an album or whatever.
But, the way I read some threads: some critisize just to get a response, to start trouble. Notice I'm saying "the way I read", because this is written text and a mistake is easily made.
My point is the verbal abuse, the name-calling. That is inacceptable for me. I can't keep up with all topics, but the ones I read: anyone can see the name-calling going on. And often directed to CarylB.
And only a few people say something about it.
Me: I'm just fed up with the verbal abuse on the forum. And frankly: I've never been called names here, but if that were the case, I don't think I could be so patient and polite about it as CarylB has.
But I said before: it is not about persons or who it is directed to. Today it's CarylB, tomorrow it could be you. Think about that.
Mmm.... this ain't good. There are a lot of people do that lately. Don't know why.
As for Carylb, the same thing happens to me in Pm's. I'm not closing my mouth for that, not walking away.
CarylB, people who do that are sick. It must be fun on this board, no stuff like this must happen.
Give me the names from those people and i will kick their asses for you!!!
Don't know what we can do about it. The number of members is growing very fast. And i think that lots of people don't know how they must react or act on a forum, maybe that is a problem.
It is hard to see, i admit that. And there is less we can do about it. But don't react on that kind of people, they are not worth it. They are not even worth to run around on this world and act like a ML fan.
The Butcher.
I was thinking... we have the ignore option of course. That would at least solve your PM probs. But: what about guests, what impression would they get about this forum if they start reading topics and see all this abuse going on. :?
mariella
30 Nov 2003, 14:16
I do not like abuse in any shape or form. So, ofcourse that includes verbal abuse. To me, it only 'proves' the poster feels 'out of control' and is 'lowering' (is that good English?) her-/himself to this kind of behaviour.
This is just how I look at this. I try not to do this myself, because if I am being abusive towards anyone, I do not feel good about myself.
...I know...Back to Tibet :lol:
Great days to all of you,
Mariella
As long as you're not abusive yourself, you don't deserve to be verbally abused.
Remember this is the "Meat Loaf Fan Club" site not the "Lets Have A Pop At Meat" site.
The word fan is an abbreviation of 'fanatic' - we are fanatical about him
This ain't good .... There are a lot of people do that lately.people who do that are sick. It must be fun on this board, no stuff like this must happen.
As to classification .. I don't think it really matters whether you belong to one of the myriad personality types the human genus actually embraces, or can be reduced to a simple classification that Freud somehow missed, this is about verbal abuse, it is about courtesy or rather lack of it. Those who are not verbally abused by others do not deserve to be abused. This kind of bullying is something to be deplored. It is disgraceful when children are bullied and hounded. The fact that what is being discussed here is perpetrated on the internet and directed at adults who are able to see it for what it is and be disgusted rather than damaged, is neither here nor there imo. Like all bullying it is cowardly, potentially hurtful, and frankly ignorant whether posted publicly or sent under cover of darkness in PMs. In any decent society it is rejected as unacceptable by reasonable people, whatever their personality type.
Caryl (DPhil., MPhil., T&HD)
.. who thinks at times Tim's a lot like Meat: larger than life and twice as loud, and loves him for it :)
original sin
30 Nov 2003, 14:19
Well well well I must thank David for the best laugh I’ve had in ages !
However what we are forgetting here is a basic integrity where a non judgemental approach is required.
Wouldn’t psychology be a simple area if human behaviour fell into two distinct patterns?
My goodness, the likes of Freud, Piaget, Vygotsky, Jung etc would not have need to look any further in their research if things just popped either into box 1 or box 2.
So lets add to this theory and detail the further classification of users here:-
Type 3 - Those with no real interest other than to inflict hurt, pain or dissention
Type 4 - Those who are long term members and are dedicated fans, but who are now afraid to post in serious topics for fear of being subjected to torrents of abuse
Type 5 - Those with a degree of power, and how it is used
Type 6 - Those who hold their own rights and values over and above those of any other users
Type 7 - Those who are able to post in an inoffensive manner
Type 8 - Those who post in an offensive manner
Type 9 - Those where English is not a first language and need some leeway in the interpretation of their posts
Type 10- those with a completely different agenda on a totally different level
Well as you can see folks the arena is open, and whilst I may personally slot someone into a type from
1 - 10 or even unclassified, I would not chose to do so here and now.
Irrespective of any type or classification the REAL issues here are common decency and integrity, and that is what we need to get back to.
Personally I was very pleased to see Diane make a stand yesterday to try to draw a line in the sand with acceptable behaviour and standards, and believe it was a sad event that others then tried to undermine her actions.
MLUKFC need to start listening to members who are saying that they just don’t post in serious topics anymore because of the abuse that is thrown at them, this has been said to me on several occasions now by different members.
It's about time this came up for general discussion, but lets just wait and see just how long it takes for this topic to be either locked or moved to fight club......
I've been a member here for just over a year now and to be honest, i'm utterly disgusted at the way some members of this forum have been allowed to get away with what can only be described as a modern day witch-hunt.
Around here it seems to be open season for picking on CarylB, and not a single thing is done about it. Yesterday was the first time i have seen a moderator step in when Caryl has had abuse hurled at her - and all credit to Diane for doing that. It's about time.
I am saddend by the way that Caryl has been treated here - it makes me wonder should i express my opinions fully and frankly as Caryl does, if i would get the same response as well...
I think what annoys me more is the fact that some people seem to think that this kind of abuse and bullying is acceptable. As Sharon has already pointed out - i wonder if these bullies would be brave enough to say in person, face to face, what they are all too quick to say when hiding behind a computer screen. Somehow i don't think so.
This is the Meat Loaf UK Fan Club. This, in my interpretation, means that this is a place to come and participate in because you are a fan of Meat's. This is a place that is supposed to be enjoyable and fun. This isn't a place where abuse and insults should be thrown at a person just because they have expressed an opinion that you don't happen to agree with. Yes, it's fine to have differences - they are what makes this forum fun, but when what is said becomes nasty and hurtful then that is just plain wrong.
Those people who take pleasure in degrading and insuting Caryl should be ashamed of themselves.You know who you are. This is supposed to be a forum where free speach is encouraged, so lets encourage the free speech, and get rid of the bullying and nastiness. I'm not saying that we should all be one big happy family - i know that will never happen, but it would be good if we could be at least nice to one another.
Around here it seems to be open season for picking on CarylB, and not a single thing is done about it. Yesterday was the first time i have seen a moderator step in when Caryl has had abuse hurled at her - and all credit to Diane for doing that. It's about time.
That is not correct. I know that both R and I have stepped in a few times when this has happened.
http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2518 is one example.
SueW
Around here it seems to be open season for picking on CarylB, and not a single thing is done about it. Yesterday was the first time i have seen a moderator step in when Caryl has had abuse hurled at her - and all credit to Diane for doing that. It's about time.
That is not correct. I know that both R and I have stepped in a few times when this has happened.
http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2518 is one example.
SueW
That trip down memory lane just totally sickened me. What horrible things were said. My stomach is upset reading that thread. Really, I think I may lose my breakfast.
I would like to point out that one of those awful posts I did PM a moderator about and received no reply.
And although I do appreciate Diane stepping in yesterday, I have to think that my public plea was what made that happen. I could not be ignored if I made the plea publicly. I wasn't and, Diane, and again, I appreciate that.
Around here it seems to be open season for picking on CarylB, and not a single thing is done about it. Yesterday was the first time i have seen a moderator step in when Caryl has had abuse hurled at her - and all credit to Diane for doing that. It's about time.
That is not correct. I know that both R and I have stepped in a few times when this has happened.
http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2518 is one example.
SueW
I don't wish to be argumentative here, Sue, but what you actually did was lock the particular thread. Not once did you condem the verbal abuse that Caryl was given or pull the abusers up about it. I believe your turn of phrase was 'Bickering'.
It seems to me that it's a hell of a lot easier for a mod to lock a particular thread and 'put an end to bickering' then it is to leave the thread open and have to deal with abusive posters.
I would just like to say that my last comment is not directed at anyone inparticular - just an observation in general.
I think you make a fair point Heat. SueW identified the one occasion when something was said apart from the thread was being locked because of bickering or argument. On that occasion she said "We're all sad that Meat is leaving this board but these kind of posts will just send other people away too. "
Yesterday was the first time I can recall anything being said that clearly labelled what was said about me as being unacceptable. And this kind of abuse has been allowed to continue for quite some time on occasions .. and whilst threads may be locked, this is not the same as coming out and saying clearly and unequivocally that verbal abuse of individuals will not be tolerated here. Yesterday Diane did that .. and I am grateful and respect her for it.
ALL BULLYING EITHER OVERT AND COVERT SHOULD BE STOPPED BY ALL PARTIES IMMEDIATELY BULLYING TAKES VARIOUS FORMS AS DO BULLIES.
:evil: Rosie
Im getting fed up on here now , :( it seems everywhere you go on here lately there are insults, abuse, name calling, arguing all the time, :( its really depressing me now, :( i wish everyone would come on here and be nice, :lol: i wish Meat could see all this. :( dont think hed be very impressed, :( after all this site is for all who love his music and him. :wink: Its not a war forum for gods sake, :( all the insults and arguing are taking the goodness out of this forum. :cry: im sorry i do love it here, its just going way over the top now. :cry: guys come on lets ALL get on now. :D , stop all these insults, and the abuse there is no need on here, we should all be one big happy family for Meat , :D dont forget thats who were here for. :wink:
Im getting fed up on here now , :( it seems everywhere you go on here lately there are insults, abuse, name calling, arguing all the time, :( its really depressing me now, :( i wish everyone would come on here and be nice, :lol: i wish Meat could see all this. :( dont think hed be very impressed, :( after all this site is for all who love his music and him. :wink: Its not a war forum for gods sake, :( all the insults and arguing are taking the goodness out of this forum. :cry: im sorry i do love it here, its just going way over the top now. :cry: guys come on lets ALL get on now. :D , stop all these insults, and the abuse there is no need on here, we should all be one big happy family for Meat , :D dont forget thats who were here for. :wink:
IMO I don't think Meat would be surprised. He himself has felt the need to come on and defend/ explain himself.
And this has been going on for some time now. I'm sure he's seen bits and pieces in his travels on the forum and he still returns to post.
As for one big happy family? Show me one of those and I'm sure that I'd be viewing a family plot... :lmao:
The Flying Mouse
30 Nov 2003, 19:47
Around here it seems to be open season for picking on CarylB, and not a single thing is done about it. Yesterday was the first time i have seen a moderator step in when Caryl has had abuse hurled at her - and all credit to Diane for doing that. It's about time.
:twisted: I don't know if i'm taking this the wrong way :roll: , but if the moderators of this board are being asked to justify themselves, then I would like to say that if there are any problems in Loaf Camera Action or Off Topic, they are dealt with.Thankfully there have not been too many problems in Off Topic (and none in LCA).
I watch my forums, and if there is a problem, I will monitor the situation to see wether if what is being said is friendly banter or genuine flaming.If I feel things are going too far, or if I receive an official complaint I will act.
Speaking out as a mod on another forum would be way out of line.Other forums have other mods who are perfectly capable running their forums the way they see fit, and I am not willing to presume to tell them how to do their job.
My opinion is that everyone has the right to their own opinion.Just as everyone has the right to disagree.When people resort to insults they not only make MLUKFC an uncomfortable place to visit, they undermine their own arguments.Making a coherent point with examples is one thing, but acting like a loony will only result in you being treated like a loony.It seems to me that those who throw insults round do themselves harm more than anything else.
It also strikes me that there are those who seem to disagree/agree with certain people on matter of principle.I think this is wrong.I am personally happy to agree with a person on one thing and disagree with them two minutes later on another topic with absouloutly no hard feelings.There is a world of difference between agreeing with a person,and what the person is saying.
I don't think we need all to agree on everything Mrs Mouse, but this is about whether it's acceptable for a few people to verbally abuse others just because they have a different opinion, or step up and defend Meat.
I too am sure Meat is well aware of what has been going on .. I hope if he is he is equally disturbed. He's made it cler he doesn't expect abuse here, and I don't see him as the kind of person who thinks others are fair game because they are loyal and staunch fans.
I trust you're not suggesting that I should haul the cross around without comment. I have been patient, I have been courteous in my responses. I am rather tired of being the target for the kind of comments I posted at the start of this thread. And it's apparent that I am not the only one to feel it has gone too far and for too long.
And Mouse, I agree with everything you say. However, as a particular target I don't see the need to bear abuse repeatedly without comment, nor accept it as a cross I should bear. Like Meat, I have come to the point where enough's enough. :!:
stop all these insults, and the abuse there is no need on here, we should all be one big happy family for Meat , :D
EXACTLY!!! This is what I tried to say last night. Maybe, if you feel the need to lash out about something, you should take the time to evaluate the messenger and where they generally stand on issues, then react accordingly. I have do this with the crazy news casts all the time - take into consideration what station I am watching before I accept and move on or decide to fire off an e-mail about what I just saw. Name calling never accomplishes anything. Just take a moment to consider the source when reacting to a situation.
ROCK ON MEAT LOAF FANS!!!
First things first:
Starting a post in here and pondering about how long it will take to get locked or moved isn't the best way to start off.
I'll decide later if I'll do that and or not and that's not your business at all.
I agree that that one comment made in the now split thread crosses the line and I'm not tolerating this.
Next one to post a comment like this will get his/her account suspended for one week.
If that doesn't help - next time that person get's banned. I hope that is clear enough.
Then again, you all should learn to tolerate other people's opinions, even if you do not like it at all.
It simply doesn't make any sense to argue again and again in order to convince your opponent.
We all have seen that this does not work. Having said that, a little less could sometimes be a little more. Give this a thought please.
Thank you Rainer. I trust that the comments I listed at the beginning of this thread fall under the umbrella of your warning.
Then again, you all should learn to tolerate other people's opinions, even if you do not like it at all.
It simply doesn't make any sense to argue again and again in order to convince your opponent.
We all have seen that this does not work. Having said that, a little less could sometimes be a little more. Give this a thought please.
TOLERATE
That is the word I have been fishing around looking for in the past few hours.
TOLERATE
You do not have to accept what is being said, but you do need to be able to allow ceratin things to just be said without reaction.
TOLERATE
Couldn't have said it better myself R. Thank you from the very bottom of my little bat heart!!!
ROCK ON TOLERANT FANS!!!!
stop all these insults, and the abuse there is no need on here, we should all be one big happy family for Meat , :D
EXACTLY!!! This is what I tried to say last night. Maybe, if you feel the need to lash out about something, you should take the time to evaluate the messenger and where they generally stand on issues, then react accordingly. I have do this with the crazy news casts all the time - take into consideration what station I am watching before I accept and move on or decide to fire off an e-mail about what I just saw. Name calling never accomplishes anything. Just take a moment to consider the source when reacting to a situation.
ROCK ON MEAT LOAF FANS!!!
Please don't take offense, David, but what you are saying is probably alot easier TO say, as it's not happening to you.
Fact of the matter is that certain people have been VERY abusive towards Caryl to the point of cruelty at times. She's defended herself with dignity and at times, even with humor when she's been able to muster it. I think some would find that an almost impossiblity if it were happening to them.
It's very easy to tell others to turn the other cheek, so to speak, when it's not your cheek that is needing the turn.
It's also difficult when you've run out of cheek.
[quote="Please don't take offense, David, but what you are saying is probably alot easier TO say, as it's not happening to you.
It's also difficult when you've run out of cheek.
Maybe it is not happening to me now, but it has happened to me in the past my friend. I have had my fair share of verbal garbage piled at my inbox - to the point of near breakdown. Sometimes if you feel people are piling up the abuse at you, it is time to take a vacation from the place that is causing you grief. I have been forced to do this from all Jim Steinman places on the internet. As much as I love Jimmy's crazy ways and amazing music, going to places his fans are at causes me pain in my heart that I just cannot tolerate at this point in my life.
ROCK ON FIRE BALL!!!
TOLERATE
Fireball aka Meat Loaf said:
putdowns, Lies and just plan being angry over what I don't know I will not tolerate.
I think that covers needless verbal abuse. And like Meat I see no reason to tolerate that in any colour .. other's different views, yes. Name calling and abuse, no. Hopefully Rainer's post will signal an end to it.
However, I have no intention of taking a vacation from this place. That would be giving in to the bullies, and I am made of stronger stuff than that. :)
The Flying Mouse
30 Nov 2003, 20:26
Carol forgot to change accounts before she posted her message :oops: .
Her message is now below this one :wink:
I don't think we need all to agree on everything Mrs Mouse, but this is about whether it's acceptable for a few people to verbally abuse others just because they have a different opinion, or step up and defend Meat.
I trust you're not suggesting that I should haul the cross around without comment. I have been patient, I have been courteous in my responses. I am rather tired of being the target for the kind of comments I posted at the start of this thread. And it's apparent that I am not the only one to feel it has gone too far and for too long.
im not saying we should all agree on everything,my post wasnt directed to you,it was directed to the people who think that insulting people is acceptable on a public forum,i havent got a problem with people defending themselves as long as they dont bring themselves down to the bullies level,which must be quite hard sometimes i can imagine.
Tink i suppose everyone to be one happy family is pretty unlikely, all im saying is that people should at least remain civil even if they dont agree with whats being said.
Thank you Mr and Mrs Mouse .. I didn't really think you were suggesting that abuse should be acceptable .. and yes, sometimes it is hard to respond without sinking to the bullies' level. I don't think I have fallen into this trap. The reason I raised the issue was to effect some stand before I did, and before others got too discouraged.
That Rainer has signalled verbal abuse is not acceptable is something I value and respect, and trust this will signal an end to it. :)
I now see that the posts I was responding to were due to a techincal thang and not two minds that speak as but one :) .. but I guess Mouse was saying essentially the same thing earlier :)
original sin
30 Nov 2003, 21:08
umm i go out for a bite to eat and I miss so much.
Things seem to be slightly straighter now and I'm very pleased about that, I do remain concerned about some of the terminology being bandied around.
for example Tolerate - Imho we should not tolerate bad behaviour or meanness.
Personally I would like to see a lot more mutal respect and a lot more "practise what you preach", I'm fed up of the " I'll say what I want and have a right to" attitude".
From personal experience I do not hold with the theory that we should move away from bullying or unpleasantness, I have always believed in conforting my issues as that is the only way I can deal with them and live with myself.
Finally I will share something with you all that only a few know and maybe this will give you food for thought.
My 13 year old threatened to take his own life this summer due to bullying. I was too scared to leave him alone for 30 seconds for fear of what he might do. He had been driven into a deep state of despair due to verbal and physical abuse at school.
As a mother i do my best and find my self telling him things like, the offenders are immature and things will improve with age.
Then I come on here and see people getting away with (by my personal standards) some appalling behaviour and comments, and I sit back and I despair :?
I don't expect comformity or unity on all issues, but I do expect people to have respect and be able to put accross their point without being objectionable or personally insulting.
Family friends any group will never agree but I think Flying Mouse summed it up when he said
It also strikes me that there are those who seem to disagree/agree with certain people on matter of principle.I think this is wrong.I am personally happy to agree with a person on one thing and disagree with them two minutes later on another topic with absouloutly no hard feelings
and that my friends is called maturity
.. and yes, sometimes it is hard to respond without sinking to the bullies' level. I don't think I have fallen into this trap. The reason I raised the issue was to effect some stand before I did, and before others got too discouraged.
That Rainer has signalled verbal abuse is not acceptable is something I value and respect, and trust this will signal an end to it. :)
You definitely HAVE NOT fallen into the trap Caryl .. and for that I thank you. And thank you for raising this issue .... something that should have been done a long time ago. All I can add is that I echo everything that people have said in support of Caryl ... and thank you Rainer for taking a stand and hopefully bringing an end to the verbal abuse once and for all :)
Vicki
***E D I T***
ROCK ON GOOD MUSIC!!!!
ROCK ON GOOD MUSIC!!!!
I Couldn't Have Said That better myself :))
Vicki
ROCK ON GOOD MUSIC!!!!
I Couldn't Have Said That better myself :))
Thank you very much. It really is all about the music to me. In most cases, I could really care less about what Meat and the band are wearing (well, maybe I am somewhat interested in what Patti has on, seeing as I do think she is "hot"), but it is about how this music makes me feel and what it does to my soul.
Few artists entire cataloge of work touches my heart the way Meat's music touches me. I could really give a flying fig if Jim, James, Webber, or even Meat himself wrote the song - what matters in my mind's eye is the musical delivery - not only Meat Loaf's voice but the entire package. I see way beyond this being a show about one man, but rather a cast of characters who all contribute.
ROCK ON EXCELLENT MUSIC!!!
ROCK ON GOOD MUSIC!!!!
I Couldn't Have Said That better myself :))
Thank you very much. It really is all about the music to me. In most cases, I could really care less about what Meat and the band are wearing (well, maybe I am somewhat interested in what Patti has on, seeing as I do think she is "hot"), but it is about how this music makes me feel and what it does to my soul.
Few artists entire cataloge of work touches my heart the way Meat's music touches me. I could really give a flying fig if Jim, James, Webber, or even Meat himself wrote the song - what matters in my mind's eye is the musical delivery - not only Meat Loaf's voice but the entire package. I see way beyond this being a show about one man, but rather a cast of characters who all contribute.
ROCK ON EXCELLENT MUSIC!!!
I agree. I felt the "magic" the night I saw Meat sing CHSIB the first time at the Mohegan Sun this past September ... and I felt that same magic again this past weekend when I saw Simon & Garfunkel live for the first time in Atlantic City :)
Sorry ... I didn't mean to go off topic ... but I just can't get that S&G show out of my mind :roll:
Vicki
shadow1000001
01 Dec 2003, 01:28
My opinion is that everyone has the right to their own opinion.Just as everyone has the right to disagree.When people resort to insults they not only make MLUKFC an uncomfortable place to visit, they undermine their own arguments.Making a coherent point with examples is one thing, but acting like a loony will only result in you being treated like a loony.It seems to me that those who throw insults round do themselves harm more than anything else.
It also strikes me that there are those who seem to disagree/agree with certain people on matter of principle.I think this is wrong.I am personally happy to agree with a person on one thing and disagree with them two minutes later on another topic with absouloutly no hard feelings.There is a world of difference between agreeing with a person,and what the person is saying.
I totally agree Mouse. I just wish that other people could see it that way :?
Maria
My 13 year old threatened to take his own life this summer due to bullying. I was too scared to leave him alone for 30 seconds for fear of what he might do. He had been driven into a deep state of despair due to verbal and physical abuse at school.
As a mother i do my best and find my self telling him things like, the offenders are immature and things will improve with age.
Thanks for sharing. I am a mother too... kids 19 and 17. I can imagine how that must feel like for a mother.
I'm probably gonna piss off the mods and admin over here but... that's what it started to look like to me here. English is not my native tongue, that's a disadvantage, but... The bully, the victim and the silent crowd...
I resent that. I refuse to be a part of the silent crowd. We are all adults here, but that picture came to mind.
I don't like what's going on over here the past few weeks as far as insults and abuse is concerned.
I read some people are afraid to say anything, concerned if they were gonna be the next victim.
I'm not. I state my case untill someone stops me.
I saw CarylB attacked recently, David a while ago... and saw some other stuff I just don't like.
I understand mods use their good judgment on different boards. I do. And if I want to keep posting here, I have to obey the rules, we all have to.
Maybe it's just me... maybe I'm not tolerant enough on the Dutch forum. Small forums are far more easy to control. But abuse like that: final warning. You do it again: I kick you out. No warning after warning, no moving to fight club... no registering again under another account, you're OUT. But that's me, and all people are different.
I don't think I've ever offended anybody on this board. And if I did, it was unintentional and I apologize.
I've never been verbally abused on this forum by anyone either. So... you could say it's not my problem.
No, for me personally, it's not. But I see what's going on and I don't like it. And I DO NOT want to be part of the silent crowd.
R and mods will decide as they see fit. I understand and respect mod's decisions. And then it is my choice not to participate anymore and that has to be respected as well. Not important, I see that too. I have great self esteem, but he he... being one of the over 700 members, one Guppie more or less doesn't count :D
I respect the mods. Because they have to be impartial and act on gut instinct and/or common sence. I have GREAT respect for R. The admin of a forum with this amount of members.
But in fact, each member deserves respect. And from what I've read: it isn't there.
Sorry for the long post. Just had to say this.
Very well said Guppie .. you didn't offend me at all.
Thank you :) I absolutely agree with everything you've said .. except this :
Not important, I see that too. I have great self esteem, but he he... being one of the over 700 members, one Guppie more or less doesn't count :D
Are you kidding :??: Of course every Guppie counts !! It wouldn't be the same without you around here :) Don't even think about leaving :roll:
Vicki
David im with you. :D ROCK ON GOOD MUSIC, and it will always be good music from Meat. :wink:
Guppie, who has imo no need whatsoever to apologise for her eloquent post, wrote:
But I see what's going on and I don't like it. And I DO NOT want to be part of the silent crowd ..... But in fact, each member deserves respect.
Not being prepared to be part of the silent crowd Guppie is what makes you the person you are, and as such one who is esteemed and valued in this forum by many of us :)
Sin had just posted:
..... I don't expect comformity or unity on all issues, but I do expect people to have respect and be able to put accross their point without being objectionable or personally insulting ....
I know something of what Sin and her family have been going through. Sadly many of us will know a family who number a child who is being bullied. As an adult I don't lose sleep over abuse hurled at me on the internet .. as Mouse has said, those who indulge in this just expose themselves for what they are. However, Sin's point about what we should be able to expect in terms of behaviour from adults, and her despair at coming to a forum she enjoys, and seeing people get away with behaviour and comments which by her standards are appalling ... this is (to quote a line from Life is a Lemon) what this is all about. In a world where some adults model abusive and bullying behaviour without reproach, some children will continue to see it as acceptable and bully their peers who are less able to shrug it off.
Meat was bullied at school. Meat clearly has a special place in his heart for children. The scars of bullying persist long after one has left childhood. We have seen how Meat reacts to what he described as "putdowns" .. they hurt him still, just as they hurt most of those they are levelled at, for let's make no mistake .. such comments are generally intended to ridicule and hurt those they are aimed at. I don't believe he would find abusive bullying behaviour acceptable in this forum, for let's be clear .. the kind of insulting comments we have been talking about here go way beyond the bounds of what could ever be considered humorous, teasing, or in any way acceptable in a society which holds any respect for the feelings of others.
Going back to Guppie's point about not being prepared to be part of the silent crowd, remember the maxim
"All that is required for evil to flourish is for good people to stand by and do nothing" ?
Some in this forum did not stand by yesterday, and I salute each one of them. And it is only when each and every one of us takes such a stand, wherever we are and whenever we see abusive bullying taking place, that we can send a clear and consistent message that this is not to be tolerated, that it is not acceptable, and perhaps gradually there will be fewer children subjected to this and their lives scarred and damaged. Because make no mistake, when verbal abuse is hurled at children it is indeed evil, and I don't believe I need add the "imo" rider to this statement, not in a world I want to inhabit.
Not being prepared to be part of the silent crowd Guppie is what makes you the person you are, and as such one who is esteemed and valued in this forum by many of us :)
Couldn't Have Said It Better Caryl:)
ChrissybabezNI
01 Dec 2003, 19:37
I agree with what was said about tolerating but that I think should be aimed at the two or three particular individuals who seem to like picking someone out and chipping away and scrutinising every single word that is typed. As far as I can see it has been the same two/three people every time and out of the 700 odd people on this fansite, I think they are the ones who need to understand what TOLERATE is. They seem to have very strong views on how Meat should be supported and how we act and sometimes I can't help but question are they actually fans at all or do they just come on here to provoke? Anyway that is neither here nor there. I just hope they read all these posts and realise that people are on Caryls side here, and in no way is she the one in the wrong as we all have different ways of showing out support for Meat, and as someone quite rightly said, this IS a fansite after all, and its for fans. Please don't take anything I have said to be rude or disrespectful, thats just the way I see things. Chin up Caryl.
:)
Chrissy x
Thanks, both of you. 8)
Guppie...you rock! Would you mind if I nominated you as "Board Goddess" for your wonderful personality and amazing people skills???
ROCK ON GOOD PEOPLE!!!!
Yes, I'd mind because that would embarass the hell out of me :lol:
Whooooooooooooooo, :D way to go Guppie. :wink:
Yes, I'd mind because that would embarass the hell out of me :lol:
LOL~!
Ya' know, my fave bartender has a chocolate martini as one of her specialties. I cannot watch her make one without thinking of my wonderous Internet friend Guppie. I think I shall have to have one this weekend and toast to level-headedness.
:-)
ROCK ON WEB FRIENDS!!!
ummm, what could i say that is intelligent and portrays how i feel after reading this thread?- quite frankly i can't!
i'm upset, angry, annoyed, disappointed and a thousand and one other mixed up feelings that i hoped i would never feel again.
Bullying sucks! i suffered 6 years at the end of verbal bullying and it stinks, there is no need for it and i hoped id never feel it or witness it ever again.
If you belong to this board, you like, love, adore or worship meat. Therefore, we should be united!
However, there is a beginning of a devide appearing and its based on how much you love meat.
Stuff it!
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but there is no need to verbally abuse someone because their opinion differs- a friendly debate is one thing, insults and abuse is another.
please can you all remember why you joined and be friends, there is enough hatred in this world without it being added here.
thanks for letting me have my say
kaz
ChrissybabezNI wrote:
I agree with what was said about tolerating but that I think should be aimed at the two or three particular individuals who seem to like picking someone out and chipping away and scrutinising every single word that is typed. As far as I can see it has been the same two/three people every time and out of the 700 odd people on this fansite, I think they are the ones who need to understand what TOLERATE is. They seem to have very strong views on how Meat should be supported and how we act and sometimes I can't help but question are they actually fans at all or do they just come on here to provoke?
Absolutely right Chrissybebez .. and I hope this point does not get lost
I just hope they read all these posts and realise that people are on Caryls side here, and in no way is she the one in the wrong as we all have different ways of showing out support for Meat, and as someone quite rightly said, this IS a fansite after all, and its for fans. Please don't take anything I have said to be rude or disrespectful, thats just the way I see things. Chin up Caryl
Thank you :) And you have expressed your view clearly and directly without resorting to abusive language to or about those to whom you refer. It's easy really isn't it! You can do it, I can do it, most people on this board can do it.
As I've said the behaviour of these few doesn't give me sleepless nights .. but it IS rude, it IS unnecessary and should be unacceptable here.. I'm not looking to have anything named after me :) .. just that I and others should be able to expect fair and courteous treatment, and Rainer's post indicates that in future this should be the case. I notice that on another thread some posts, presumably referring to me, and presumably in negative terms, have been removed by Rainer. I see that Mouse has locked that particular thread. I thank them both for taking action.
original sin
01 Dec 2003, 22:51
ummm, what could i say that is intelligent and portrays how i feel after reading this thread?- quite frankly i can't!
i'm upset, angry, annoyed, disappointed and a thousand and one other mixed up feelings that i hoped i would never feel again.
Bullying sucks! i suffered 6 years at the end of verbal bullying and it stinks, there is no need for it and i hoped id never feel it or witness it ever again.
If you belong to this board, you like, love, adore or worship meat. Therefore, we should be united!
However, there is a beginning of a devide appearing and its based on how much you love meat.
Stuff it!
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but there is no need to verbally abuse someone because their opinion differs- a friendly debate is one thing, insults and abuse is another.
please can you all remember why you joined and be friends, there is enough hatred in this world without it being added here.
thanks for letting me have my say
kaz
Kaz - my heart went out to you as I read your post as i know your heart went into writing it. Thank you for having the courage to share your experiences and feelings. I have been through hell since before May with what has been happening to my son and this is the first time I have said anything directly and publicly here.
Guppie - you're a luv! Thanks for your kind words.
Caryl - what can I say! Thanks for being there!
Ya' know, my fave bartender has a chocolate martini as one of her specialties. I cannot watch her make one without thinking of my wonderous Internet friend Guppie. I think I shall have to have one this weekend and toast to level-headedness.
ROCK ON WEB FRIENDS!!!
he he.. you remembered. My favo drink, Martini. 8)
We're in different time zones, so getting drunk at the same time is not an option , he he... :lol: '
But you raise your glass and drink, and I'll do the same. ~~~~ the time-difference. Hell... we'll get drunk in cyberspace :P
original sin, thank you for your kind words, bullying sucks but with love and support its easy to get over it....i sufered in silence for 4 of those years because they made me feel as though it was my fault they were bullying me but when i finally spilt it all out to my parents it became easier, love and support are vital!
Kaz, you said you thought you couldn't convey how you felt intelligently .. well you were wrong there :) I was at school in a gentler time .. our classes were small and the teachers watchful; I didn't experience or observe any bullying .. I was lucky. So when I see adults unable to disagree without resorting to name calling my eyebrows tend to raise up, but it doesn't resonate with me like it must with you. Good that you spoke up then and that you have spoken up now. People will vary in their level of commitment to Meat as an individual .. but no-one deserves verbal abuse because of it.
thanks caryl, i just never feel that you can truely convey how you feel about topic like this, in my case it makes it harder because there are so many bad memories that come flooding back due to it.
I agree with what was said about tolerating but that I think should be aimed at the two or three particular individuals who seem to like picking someone out and chipping away and scrutinising every single word that is typed. As far as I can see it has been the same two/three people every time and out of the 700 odd people on this fansite, I think they are the ones who need to understand what TOLERATE is. They seem to have very strong views on how Meat should be supported and how we act and sometimes I can't help but question are they actually fans at all or do they just come on here to provoke? Anyway that is neither here nor there. I just hope they read all these posts and realise that people are on Caryls side here, and in no way is she the one in the wrong as we all have different ways of showing out support for Meat, and as someone quite rightly said, this IS a fansite after all, and its for fans. Please don't take anything I have said to be rude or disrespectful, thats just the way I see things. Chin up Caryl.
:)
Chrissy x
That's NOT what I meant.
Just saying "These 3 are always wrong, they are talking bullcrap. So they should learn what tolerance is." is not much better than posting a rude comment. There are different views on a lot of things in this forum. We all should learn to tolerate and respect them. And having said that, respecting an opinion, even if you disagree wholeheartedly, and saying so is sometimes the better way out of a endless and useless argument. That's what I meant with "a little less could be a little more". Give this a thought.
ChrissybabezNI
02 Dec 2003, 20:26
Yip thats a fair enough point, I wasnt here when most of that went on so I dont know the full story, I was just writing how it looked to me
Chrissy x
I think your vision's OK Chrissy :) I have not used rude abusive terms when responding to people, and nor did you. You simply described what you saw some people doing without applying any negative epithets.
We're in different time zones, so getting drunk at the same time is not an option , he he... :lol: '
But you raise your glass and drink, and I'll do the same. [...] the time-difference. Hell... we'll get drunk in cyberspace :P
Well, to quote Alan Jackson & Jimmy Buffett....
"IT'S FIVE O'CLOCK SOMEWHERE!!!"
ROCK ON GOOD MUSIC!!!
We're in different time zones, so getting drunk at the same time is not an option , he he... :lol: '
But you raise your glass and drink, and I'll do the same. [...] the time-difference. Hell... we'll get drunk in cyberspace :P
Well, to quote Alan Jackson & Jimmy Buffett....
"IT'S FIVE O'CLOCK SOMEWHERE!!!"
ROCK ON GOOD MUSIC!!!
In that case David,
Pour me something tall and strong
make it a hurricane
before I go insane.
It's onyl half past twelve but i don't care
It's five o'clock somewhere!
Sorry for being off-topic but this song is now playing ont he cd player and I couldn't resist!
he he... that's a great quote!
Well, it's 11.15 pm over here, but hey, it's 5 o'clock somewhere, so here's to good music and the joys of life.
Buttoms up. :D
PanicLord
03 Dec 2003, 00:24
Such powerful thoughts have been so clearly expressed in this thread that I reckon it is time for me to chuck my 50p in (I know it used to be ha'penn'orth or 0.5p, but hey, that was years ago, and 0.5p ain't what it used to be!).
To me, like so many others, the ritual and horrific verbal abuse that CarylB (and occasionally others, EVEN ML himself) has had to put up with is entirely abhorrent (to my knowledge, that's the first time I've ever used that word, and I am appalled to find that it's first outing should be on such a fantastic forum, which main aim is to allow discussion of Meat Loaf and his Music).
I agree 100% that this board should be about tolerance...
That is, tolerance of any OPINION about Meat or his music. On no account however should that mean that anyone should have to put up with horrible abuse.
It doesn't matter how good your English is, or how intelligently you communicate.
All that matters is that the good name of the site is upheld, and not sullied by vicious attacks on regular contributors.
Kudos to the mods / regs or whatever the right word is. R sounds a bit scary but is 100% right. Whatever you think of SueW's words, the intent behind closing that thread was clearly right, and all manner of flying mice get my vote too. :lol: Lets hope these clear signals, and follow up action, discourage the people who waste their time and ours by attacking people rather than discussing opinions.
Meat has had a stressful year to say the least. Let's get back to celebrating Meat and his work. Fan is indeed short for fanatical, and there is no harm in being a fan. That's not to say you have to be as devoted as Caryl, everybody supports Meat in their own little way. But that does not make Caryl's way wrong.
I'll let you in to a secret, that I have not told very many people at all about.
I was bullied verbally by many people all through primary and high school, for several reasons. There was a tramp in town with the same name as me. I never wore trendy clothes. My name is Simon. I was very skinny.
It hurts like hell.
But it makes you tougher. I'm glad to see that Caryl is tough as nails against the bullies that threaten this site with closure through putting off other genuine visitors (and that is NOT abuse - it's a complement to Caryl).
In fact, I myself went too far the wrong way into toughness and ended up hurting people with my own verbal abuse.
Every time I think about that now I hang my head in shame, and I wish that it could be undone. But it can't.
The only way to prevent the hurt is NOT TO DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Please - whoever is responsible - stop. It doesn't help, and the vast majority of people at this site do not support abuse in the slightest.
I have changed my ways. Meat always says that all he ever wants to do is become a better person. Well, ICHSIBM. I recommend it to any bully who takes the easy, cowardly, option by hiding behind an internet connection and a keyboard. The hurt still hurts. I KNOW.
Goodnight my friends. I am not leaving this site. I truly believe that we are extremely lucky to have this site, AND visits from Meat Loaf.
And I will support anyone who has abuse levelled at them, for what my support is worth.
Love, S.
Not sure if i'm right, but i'm reading the "tolerate" bit as meaning, we should all tolerate on both sides. Think a lot of people are seeing it as it's meant only for the ones who are hurling abuse. Everyone should have an opinion and people forever being critised for it, makes for a lot of people not posting how they feel for fear of being critisised. I know I for one have gone to hit the reply button a lot lately and thought better of it after seeing how my posts may be read by some people. :-(
Deb
Not sure if i'm right, but i'm reading the "tolerate" bit as meaning, we should all tolerate on both sides. Think a lot of people are seeing it as it's meant only for the ones who are hurling abuse. Everyone should have an opinion and people forever being critised for it, makes for a lot of people not posting how they feel for fear of being critisised. I know I for one have gone to hit the reply button a lot lately and thought better of it after seeing how my posts may be read by some people. :-(
That is exactly what I mean Deb! It is a damned shame anyone should be even the least bit hesitant to say anything they please around here. I have seen people raked through the coals by groups of others just for stating an opinion.
ROCK ON FREE SPEECH!!!
PanicLord
03 Dec 2003, 00:42
David said:
ROCK ON FREE SPEECH!!!
ICHSIBM!!! 8)
Not sure if i'm right, but i'm reading the "tolerate" bit as meaning, we should all tolerate on both sides. Think a lot of people are seeing it as it's meant only for the ones who are hurling abuse. Everyone should have an opinion and people forever being critised for it, makes for a lot of people not posting how they feel for fear of being critisised. I know I for one have gone to hit the reply button a lot lately and thought better of it after seeing how my posts may be read by some people. :-(
That is exactly what I mean Deb! It is a damned shame anyone should be even the least bit hesitant to say anything they please around here. I have seen people raked through the coals by groups of others just for stating an opinion.
ROCK ON FREE SPEECH!!!
Yep it is a shame people have to feel like that, but they do. Free speech would be a wonderful thing;-)
BTW I come into your catagory 1 and am proud of it:-)
sharon1248
03 Dec 2003, 01:19
I have been following this thread with interest because it seems to be a common complaint on all forums that are on the internet. I have been impressed with the comments here & the good common sense shown by all. The consensus seems to be is that while honest differences of opinion are expected & even welcome...name-calling , finger pointing & rudeness are out of place here. The tough part is knowing that it will happen again & again. People Will lose their temper & say something int e rmper [SORRY my silly delete button isn't working] in a temper that they wouldn't have usually. The difference is if it is a habit with that paticular person. Then the poor moderators have a problem!
Thank you Simon for your thoughtful post. It takes a lot to admit one has been the victim of bullying .. and I sense your understanding is due to your own experience. You are in august company for Meat was bullied at school, but not being a "skinny" kid he learned to use his size to stare down his attackers:)
You said:
That is, tolerance of any OPINION about Meat or his music. On no account however should that mean that anyone should have to put up with horrible abuse.
And that is the point. I reserve the right to disagree with people but I do it without hurling abuse. Freedom of speech should never encompass that. And like Meat I see no reason for anyone to tolerate ..."putdowns, Lies and just plain being angry over what I don't know .." He said he didn't need our money .. what he needed was our loyalty .. and he has that from me :)
Well, I wasn't going to comment here, as this thread was started w/ a quote by me and I said what I had to say. Still think it's valid. Now after 4 pages, I think there have been some interesting things said and I feel compelled to add my thoughts.
Several unpleasant things that happen on this type of forum have been mentioned, i.e. name-calling, verbal abuse, bullying, harassment and what-have-you. As someone mentioned, these happen all over the net, unfortunately. IMO, in the past this site has been one of the most pleasant to visit and free of a lot of that garbage I see elsewhere.
Name-calling/verbal abuse is obviously unfortunate, doesn't belong here, but there human beings here who lose their tempers. That is not an excuse, simply a fact. An isolated incidence or two, does not in itself constitute bullying or harassment, but rudeness. When it continues, that is bullying/harrassment.
However, continual name-calling/verbal abuse is not the only form of bullying/harassment that exists. I've seen other forms here and elsewhere.
When one's posts are continually responded to w/ a superior and condescending attitude...I know better than you (this has happened on many topics) one tends to feel bullied/harassed as well. Debate and sparring is one thing, always having to have the last word is another. No matter how politely it is said, the impression is left that you need not bother to post because the responder knows better than you and can express it better. Leaves one feeling why bother to post if that is the stuff you get in response.
This may sound over-sensitive but I'm talking continual repeated actions like this, going on way longer than the name-calling things which tend to be stopped. I'm pretty sure others here have experienced the same thing.
What I have said involves my opinions of the words used. All JMHO.
It's about the music,
Terry
MEAT LOAF TRIBUTE
03 Dec 2003, 04:12
mmmmmmm i wonder who you are reffering to? well said!
shadow1000001
03 Dec 2003, 05:51
mmmmmmm i wonder who you are reffering to? well said!
CAN THIS PLEASE STOP HERE
There is no need for this to continue. We are all adults here, for the most part, and there is no need to resort to this.
Tbuck, you have brought up a valid point but I feel that I must disagree with you.
This is a forum where people can air their views and opinions. If people feel that some posts are written with a condesending view, well I guess that's their opinion but I don't understand why that would stop people from posting their views.
This is a place where freedom of speech rules and everyone has the right to express their opinions and not be penalized for it. I'm sorry if you feel that you cannot express your views on a topic because you feel that it will be responded to in a condesending way but it should not stop you. Some people have very pointed views and are not afraid to post them. I congratulate those people because it takes alot of self confidence to throw yourself out to the wolves like that. I just wish that I could be that confident and self assured :D
Maria ~ This is just my opinion
Thanks for your response Maria,
while we apparently disagree that's in the spirit of discussion I enjoy seeing here.
You haven't walked in my shoes, perhaps I didn't explain it very well. It's not that I won't speak up when I feel the need to. I have just done so, as have you. Congrats...thrown ourselves to the proverbial wolves!
My point was that constant authoritarianism, superiority, are unlikely to encourage free speech, rather they stifle it. While that may be someone's style, the same can be said about those who indulge in name-calling. I find both offensive, and those who try to continually berate others for their opinions more offensive than the occassional name-caller.
You said "everyone has the right to express their opinions and not be penalized for it" and that is exactly my point. Thank you.
T
tbuck that was sort of what I was trying to say:-)
Deb
Winston
03 Dec 2003, 12:32
spot on terry
Yes, I too have felt patronised at times by some postings. I won't give examples as I appreciate that this might not have been the writer's intention, just as if my use of English should give that impression it is not intended. But whilst I may find it irritating, I personally don't feel abused or bullied by it, and if I respond I do so without abusive language. I agree we're all entitled to our opinions .. the only thing I question is the way they are sometimes expressed. I watched Meat become increasingly defensive about the way criticisms of him were expressed and, along with many others, voiced my concerns. I saw him leave this forum and was like the vast majority greatly saddened. I was like the vast majority thrilled to have him return.
He said then:
" .... but putdowns, Lies and just plan being angry over what I don't know I will not tolerate. come on!! I don't need you money I need your Loyality" I will, like others here, continue to question when this line is crossed.
For me it's about the music, the acting, the humour, the personality but above all the huge heart of the man this site is dedicted to. And now he's back and he's fit and well, perhaps it's time to draw a line under this, celebrate his return to health, and trust that his wishes are respected.
His entrance last night was superb and shows his amazing humour .. he has tweaked the nose of fate and shown once again what a consummate performer and professional he is. No wonder we love him :)
tbuck factually stated:
Now after 4 pages
and... into it's fourth day...
imo...it's time to be over now...we're just on a dizzying merry-go-round now...imo.. now that Meat is back and better than ever... it's time to move on to what all are saying the forum is about..the music ..etc...
this dead horse is starting to have a stench...
we can always come back here should we spot the abuses again...
but for now...please...from my heart....please...
for now...
let's get to the joy of the man...being back...
let's...as he should...have some fun with the rest of the tour...
please....
tink...
i agree with tink it is time to draw a line under all of this and move on!!!!
Rosie
Winston
03 Dec 2003, 21:28
_____________________________________________________________
little_dancer
04 Dec 2003, 00:03
Just Quickly:
Interesting discussion to which I'd like to add the following...
There are people on here who have negative points of view (on an album, or a song, or a film) who get attacked for being negative- albeit usually because they've worded it a bit offensively i.e. Titanic Sucked as opposed to: I didn't like Titanic because Leonardo Dicaprio looked too young for that part (my opinion)
They often get their opinions dismissed for being mean.
There are equally, however, people who get criticised for being positive (on an album, or a song, or a film) They often get their opinions 'dismissed' as being overdone, or rediculous or obsessive (I've had that one pointed at me :lol: )
It is important, not only to discuss, but to allow opposing points of view without 'dismissing' them because their author is...whomever.
I don't know if that makes sense-but let's just say that different people on here become known for being 'negative' or 'positive' (we've all seen that, right?) and then we dismiss everything they say for that reason. That has GOT to stop- look at each post as it's own thing and disagree of agree with THE POST...I may disagree with Caryl one day (as an example) and totally agree with her the next- so let's not let past squabbles creep into current discourse...it happens quite a bit on here-
Having said that- you guys are the cutest :D
Manipulating people and patronising people, is just as much a form of bullying as being abusive is.
My wife deleted my previous post, she was concerned about any
backlash, as she is one of the people who you have "put" in the
picture as you see it.
Is this the way a forum should be? people thinking how they are going
to be picked on for having an opinion?
this is a great forum, do not let it be taken over by a few people who
refuse to let others have ideas of a nature different to them.
tell me did you create ROL as a place you call heaven?
... you know... i was so sincere with what i said this morning...but now...
time for some fun...
PM me with your vote on who answers next and i'll tally and let you know who won via return PM... it's pretty predictable at this point with few choices ... :lol:
tink of ROL..and dang proud of it... :lol:
i agree with tink it is time to draw a line under all of this and move on!!!! Rosie
Why?
This is site feedback....the place where people should be able to post freely (but with respect for others) how they feel about this site.
As a moderator I've found this thread interesting. I've also found it sad to read that people won't post because they are worried about the possible backlash (whichever form it comes in). If people don't tell us what is worrying them then we can't do much about it (apart from obvious abuse).
If it's just that you are bored by the thread, then don't read it! There are threads on this board that I don't read because I'm not interested in them. For example that "One For The Girls!!!" thread bores me silly so I don't read it...I didn't say after 4 days that that was enough and let's move on. I just read other threads on the board.
I was actually pleased to read all these comments in this thread that didn't resort to name-calling or other abuse that happens on this board.
this is a great forum, do not let it be taken over by a few people who
refuse to let others have ideas of a nature different to them.
To quote that worn out phrase on this board I Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself.
Eventually this thread will die a nature death (as all threads do) but until the time I think that all members should be able to post about any abuse they have suffered from posts or were worried that they may have suffered if they had expressed their feelings.
Or if members are still too worried to post about it, PM one of the moderators.
SueW
libertine
04 Dec 2003, 06:43
Does it count as abuse if you get kicked out of a different web forum/group/community (one founded and run by regular posters here) just days after expressing an unpopular opinion in a thread? Just curious...
Most of you will not know me too well, I don't post regularly but I do read most of the General Messages, ICHSIB, Tour Talk and Site Feedback threads. And Fight Club once in a while, although that's been fairly quiet lately. I do what Sue describes - I glance at most of the titles and read the ones i want to. There are quite a few of topics I have personally thought boring and equivalent to the well-beaten horse left out in the sun, but if they're of interest to you, more power to ya. Post away and I'll ignore them as I have been. :)
I have to say I'm pleased that I haven't noticed too many people attacking or flaming at anyone in this thread, mainly expressing their opinion. There's always one in every crowd, whether it's He Who Shall Remain Nameless or the guy in the back of the class picture sticking his tongue out and flipping the bird. C'est la vie.
I was picked on in school too. Do I wish it hadn't happened? Maybe, but I wouldn't be the person I am today without that. Maybe I'd have been a better person, but I don't think so.
I also fell in with a destructive bunch of people during my eighth grade year and picked on other people when I had the chance. Do I wish I hadn't? Absolutely. Knowing what I know now, I wish I could find every person I made fun of and apologize to them. Not gonna happen. And that's a shame.
I've also been picked on in cyberspace. On a different message board, I was cyber-stalked for a while last year by someone "pretending" to be me, right down to coopting both my screen name and my "real" name. This person was very disruptive and mean-spirited and I do not know for sure why it happened to this day. I had to make a decision as to what to do about it. I didn't want to leave or stop participating, so my mother kept saying "Why do you care so much about this jerk?" I had a friend asking why I was letting someone live rent-free in my head. Never did come up with a good answer for either of those questions.
For me, this other board was a haven, a refuge, a place where I felt like I belonged at the end of a day working with people I don't particularly like. Instead of reacting with anger and retorts and namecalling, I resorted to humor. I gave this person two posts in response and then said "I'm done, we're not doing this anymore." And I stuck to it. You know what? The other person eventually got bored (?) & went away.
I am trying to remember to get over myself on a daily basis, and remember that this is just a web forum, my job is just a way to pay the mortgage, etc. None of it is life & death, fortunately for me. If I don't like what's happening on a message board, I can go away for a few days or just plain stop reading someone's posts. If I don't like the job, well, at least I have one and I can come home to my quiet and my solitude and read a good book.
Anyhow. I'm rambling (which surprises some of you not a bit) and am also very tired, so I am going to say good night now. Sorry this is so long... at this rate I will catch up with some of you in post lengths if not post numbers!! Have a good one, wherever you are.
I agree 100% with you Sue!
The only reason I decided to stop hodling back on the send button was so that others knew there was actually people out there who had a different opinion to the ones forced down our throats on a daily basis. Don't get me wrong I also chose to ignore stuff I dont want to read, but thats not quite the same as being able to ignore people patronising others etc... Like a few have said bullying exists on many different levels, its just some are on a much more obvious level. Doesnt make these people the only ones in the wrong.
Wonder if tink had many votes for you being next to post Sue:-) I actually wrote 2 posts in reply to that post and deleted them, wonder how many others did that as well for fear of rocking the boat. Is that what a lot of you want? a forum full of people who have to think twice before posting? I'm sure the list of who was to post next wouldnt be so obvious if everyone felt they could express an opinion. As it is, maybe its obvious because theres only a few who feel able to say how they feel. Seems theres a lot who will agree with one half of the forum, while the others who agree with the rest are afraid to post for what ever reason. Also I now know this isnt just how I feel after having many people tell me this is also how they feel, but are afraid to say it.
Deb
Deb wrote:
Wonder if tink had many votes for you being next to post Sue:-) I actually wrote 2 posts in reply to that post and deleted them, wonder how many others did that as well for fear of rocking the boat.
sadly nobody wanted to play ... :cry:
and even I was rrrong ... imagine that ... :lmao:
sorry my play ...
chased you away...
BURma shave...
tink ... off to attempt to get thru the day unscathed ...
Winston
04 Dec 2003, 13:25
There are threads on this board that I don't read because I'm not interested in them. For example that "One For The Girls!!!" thread bores me silly so I don't read it....SueW
Only if there were pictures of Kasim in it :lmao: :lmao:
Wonder if tink had many votes for you being next to post Sue:-) I actually wrote 2 posts in reply to that post and deleted them, wonder how many others did that as well for fear of rocking the boat.
Well, in my chatting on the messengers last night (BTW, I LOVE chatting...feel free to send me a message, the link is on every post I make here) I can count of three people who said they wanted to say something, but were afraid of being chided and ridiculed for what they said. I cannot count the times I have had a nearly full inbox of profanity laced PM's (on this board) for actions I have taken as a mod on the General forum. It is just funny when someone really does not contribute anything of much substance to a board, but can lay into a mod in a PM with all kinds of new ideas.
ROCK ON SILENT MAJORITY!!!
____________________________________________________
ROCK ON NO HATE!!!
Winston
04 Dec 2003, 14:58
what's there too be afraid of?? come on people now's the time, get your act together and say what you want to say.
original sin
04 Dec 2003, 19:27
This is turning into a thought provoking topic! Although yet again I do see an emphasis shift away from the original meaning of the thread.
My thoughts at this moment in time are that this topic was created due to the persistent use of derogatory name calling.
Although I’m still not quite sure, I do hope we are all in agreement that this is not acceptable.
I see no need what so ever to resort to base abuse and name calling to make a point.
Thereafter we have some more food for thought, concern has been expressed that posts appear patronising or condescending. Well I do have to agree on this one, I have read posts by certain people that I find incredibly pompous, self ingratiating, patronising and condescending, although I doubt I see them in the same posts to which the inference is made.
How we interpret what we read, is influenced by many factors, including our own personal feelings about the author , which in turn unfortunately can be influenced by others.
Writing style is a personal trait, just as the colour of your hair or eyes.
Can we say they same for a style that includes direct and offensive putdowns? Imho NO
After all is said and done this is a FAN CLUB site and I don’t think anyone should be surprised if they are challenged if they make direct attacks on members “fanship” or start questionable topics e.g Meat Loaf is not a God?
All are saying they know that some people will not post because of………and each has there own reason. What I can say is I know that some people do not post on “serious” topics because they have seen others be called “sad”, “Obsessive”, or “sycophants” and do not what to be in the same position.
The old, saying sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me” may to a degree be true in an “adult world”, but it does make for an uncomfortable relationship.
It is both unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that there will never be a difference of opinion, the only thing being asked, is for any discussion or debate to be conducted in a civil manner .
How we interpret what we read, is influenced by many factors, including our own personal feelings about the author , which in turn unfortunately can be influenced by others.
Not on my part it doesn't. I only joined the forum in april I think and have only recently started reading regularly so I have no preconcieved ideas of anyone, everything I think is from what i've read recently. it's this alone thats led me to speak up.
After all is said and done this is a FAN CLUB site and I don’t think anyone should be surprised if they are challenged if they make direct attacks on members “fanship” or start questionable topics e.g Meat Loaf is not a God?
There are very many different levels of fans and just as I don't agree with anyone being put down for being a "superduper" fan. I also don't agree with "the lesser obsessed fans" being belittled for their views. This isn't only done in the "Meats not god" topics.
It is both unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that there will never be a difference of opinion, the only thing being asked, is for any discussion or debate to be conducted in a civil manner
Very true, but just because someones not hurling verbal abuse does not mean they aren't having a holier than thou attitude :)
Deb ( who is very harrased and stressed with 5 kids :!: so please people don't pick my words apart, if I havent the time some have to sit here and get it word perfect :lol: )[/b]
ChrissybabezNI
04 Dec 2003, 23:05
I have to agree with you, about debates being discussed properly and as this thread has gone on I have been able to see other points of view more clearly. Whoever mentioned the fact that people on here come from a number of different countries and that can sometimes make for misunderstanding was exactly right. People can sometimes put an opinion a certain way and for want of a better explaination, put it in a way that may sound ok to them but not to someone else who reads it. I guess misunderstandings and differences of opinion will cause upset from time to time, and it's best to get it out inthe open sooner rather than later so things can get smoothed out. I know as I have done this myself as some people did not agree with what I wrote on my last post, and after reading any comeback on it I have to say my views have changed also, But as I wrote at the very end of it, I didn't want anyone to think I was being rude or disrespectful as I meant to malice in that post at all. Although I do think its very sad that people don't want to join in topics but I feel that after a lot of things that have been said in this topic, and feelings are out in the open, that everyone, myself included will allow for differences in opinion in the future which I'm sure can only be a good thing, now we know how other people are feeling and how much our words can matter.
Chrissy
original sin
04 Dec 2003, 23:32
Very true, but just because someones not hurling verbal abuse does not mean they aren't having a holier than thou attitude :)
and then, imo, we are back to personal opinion and interpretation, like I said in my earlier post, each of us will see this in different places, and not necessarily the same place :?
Deb ( who is very harrased and stressed with 5 kids :!: so please people don't pick my words apart, if I havent the time some have to sit here and get it word perfect :lol: )
Sin (who apart from the 5 8O kids) can so relate to this :lol:
Very true, but just because someones not hurling verbal abuse does not mean they aren't having a holier than thou attitude :)
Couldn't Have Said It Better Deb :)
Hi,
I have been mostly lurking here since the beginning of this last year, I am not often tempted to post... but I do enjoy the community. But I wanted to say that this is an EXCELLENT topic, a very valuable thread and discussion, and there are some very articulate, intelligent, and thought provoking posts here. This is what being a community at it's very best can be.... To accept that life has conflict in it, but to learn from it and work through it.... and not run and hide.
Well done you guys.
:)
Di
Sin wrote:
and then, imo, we are back to personal opinion and interpretation, like I said in my earlier post, each of us will see this in different places, and not necessarily the same place
And that's so true. Who's to say if someone says for eg that they "refuse to dumb down their post for anyone" they are being patronising, "holier than thou" or merely expressing something they feel strongly? I may blink .. but I don't take that as abuse or intentional bullying.
But if someone says "you're talking bollocks!" or "talking crap", or calls me, or anyone, names for expressing their opinion, I think they cross a line .. a line of courtesy certainly, and in the case of name calling the line that separates debate and verbal abuse. When it's consistently applied to one or two persons, even when they express a similar opinion to others, that's imo bullying
Sin wrote:
and then, imo, we are back to personal opinion and interpretation, like I said in my earlier post, each of us will see this in different places, and not necessarily the same place
And that's so true. Who's to say if someone says for eg that they "refuse to dumb down their post for anyone" they are being patronising, "holier than thou" or merely expressing something they feel strongly? I may blink .. but I don't take that as abuse or intentional bullying.
But if someone says "you're talking bollocks!" or "talking crap", or calls me, or anyone, names for expressing their opinion, I think they cross a line .. a line of courtesy certainly, and in the case of name calling the line that separates debate and verbal abuse. When it's consistently applied to one or two persons, even when they express a similar opinion to others, that's imo bullying
Just because its said as "you're talking bollocks" or "you're talking crap" doesn't it in my opinion make it any worse than "the sugar coated" versions. Putting people down for their opinions without name calling and by carefully chosing your words, so it doesnt look so bad ( but seems a lot can still see past that) doesn't make it ok.
Deb
original sin
07 Dec 2003, 21:09
I must say I have to agree whole heartedly with Debs’ statement.
Just because its said as "you're talking bollocks" or "you're talking crap" doesn't it in my opinion make it any worse than "the sugar coated" versions. Putting people down for their opinions without name calling and by carefully chosing your words, so it doesnt look so bad ( but seems a lot can still see past that) doesn't make it ok.
Thankfully, I have rarely seen this action on these boards. What I have often seen are discussions and debates, conducted in a civil manner, yet within these there tends to be the odd post or comment that gets away from the point in question and draws issues onto a personal level.
I will never be able to agree that it acceptable to use derogatory terms in public forums, and I personally find that when this happens any valid point or position is immediately lost.
In our cyber community we are relying solely on the written word and a lot can be potentially lost by not seeing the grin on someone’s face or the twinkle in their eye that goes with their words.
Which is why I have said that the interpretation of words can be a personal thing based on different factors. We will all see the different “attitudes” mentioned in previous posts, and if we discussed these there would be a difference of opinion, because that it what it is , an opinion. Yet when we have darn right rudeness or offensive name calling I think we should all stand united in agreeing that it is unacceptable.
I think Flying mouse summed things up well a few pages back
My opinion is that everyone has the right to their own opinion.Just as everyone has the right to disagree.When people resort to insults they not only make MLUKFC an uncomfortable place to visit, they undermine their own arguments.Making a coherent point with examples is one thing, but acting like a loony will only result in you being treated like a loony.It seems to me that those who throw insults round do themselves harm more than anything else.
It also strikes me that there are those who seem to disagree/agree with certain people on matter of principle.I think this is wrong.I am personally happy to agree with a person on one thing and disagree with them two minutes later on another topic with absouloutly no hard feelings.There is a world of difference between agreeing with a person,and what the person is saying.
Caryl wrote:
Who's to say if someone says for eg that they "refuse to dumb down their post for anyone" they are being patronising
refuse to dumb down their post for anyone
I find this statement itself patronising
Caryl wrote:
Who's to say if someone says for eg that they "refuse to dumb down their post for anyone" they are being patronising
refuse to dumb down their post for anyone
I find this statement itself patronising
my thoughts exactly
You know sometimes it's better to get verbal abuse because at least you know you're being abused, with the sugar coated stuff, people can hide behind, I didn't really mean it that way...
Deb
original sin
07 Dec 2003, 21:40
Caryl wrote:
Who's to say if someone says for eg that they "refuse to dumb down their post for anyone" they are being patronising
refuse to dumb down their post for anyone
I find this statement itself patronising
Em, as did I and many others at the time of its posting. However as likely as not however we "felt" this was not (I trust) the author's intention. which takes me back again to each individuals intrepretation of the written word.
A useful guide :) http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/plainenglishguide.html#Anchor-Understandabl-24756 :lol:
Em wrote:
refuse to dumb down their post for anyone
I find this statement itself patronising
Well I have to agree with you Em (and Sin and Deb). My initial reaction when that was posted in reply to me was to feel I was being talked down to .. but as Sin says, sometimes that is not the writer's intention. So as I said, I blinked . then took a deep breath and did not respond with verbal abuse or name calling.
I'm know Gower's Guide to Plain English (from which I think the page you offered came from) well .. he was a Civil Servant driven mad by Civil Service jargonese and confusing language :) Simple and clear is I agree best .. although that dosn't mean it needs to be abrupt and delivered without thought to the other person's feelings, which is I think is really the basis of what most of us are saying
Em wrote:
refuse to dumb down their post for anyone
I find this statement itself patronising
Well I have to agree with you Em (and Sin and Deb). My initial reaction when that was posted in reply to me was to feel I was being talked down to .. but as Sin says, sometimes that is not the writer's intention. So as I said, I blinked . then took a deep breath and did not respond with verbal abuse or name calling.
I'm know Gower's Guide to Plain English (from which I think the page you offered came from) well .. he was a Civil Servant driven mad by Civil Service jargonese and confusing language :) Simple and clear is I agree best .. although that dosn't mean it needs to be abrupt and delivered without thought to the other person's feelings, which is I think is really the basis of what most of us are saying
Am I being thick here or wasn't it you that said that?
refuse to dumb down their post for anyone
Deb
Oh it was said TO me Deb, not by me .. I gave it as an example .. I would never say that.
The exact words were I believe "I just cannot dumb down my posts for the sake of those who feel I should." I had asked someone what was meant by a term used, and the reply I got included this, coupled with the sentiment that the poster hoped to help the readers to "reach beyond what they think is their boundary," which would in turn help us become better people. My initial reaction was to feel I was being talked down to .. and I'm glad that we agree on the interpretation. I know Sin felt the same .. but as she says it's about interpretation, and it's possible that the intention was not to be patronising ..
Put in the whole context it doesn't sound how I initially saw it. (just shows how use of words can make things seem different lol)
Another thing that just came to mind. a lot have gone on about a few being continually picked on and abused. I'm not so sure thats the case, the main person doing the abusing has certainly abused far more than a few people, myself being one of them, just not on here for all to see. Some are just more vocal about letting it be known I think. Not that thats a bad thing, just saying that it's not just the few thats being abused, a lot of us who have an opinion different to this person are. Infact I'm pretty sure I got called a good few of the names on your list of insults myself lol
Deb
I have no doubt that those who hurl verbal abuse here do not limit their efforst to this forum :) However, I could only comment on what was happening here, where these were posted for all to see .. and frankly I was tiring of it, and I believe it was upsetting to others also. Can't change the world :) .. but can make a stand in places in it :)
Can't change the world .. but can make a stand in places in it
My feelings entirely :)
Can't change the world .. but can make a stand in places in it
You can change your own world ......never stop believing
:)
but getting back to verbal abuse........this generally only continues if people respond to it. Is it best just to ignore such posts? I work with teenagers who can be very abusive at times. They generally give up when they realise I'm not going to respond to them by getting angry or upset.
Em wrote:
but getting back to verbal abuse........this generally only continues if people respond to it. Is it best just to ignore such posts? I work with teenagers who can be very abusive at times. They generally give up when they realise I'm not going to respond to them by getting angry or upset.
That's a very good point Em .. , and in the situation you describe it's clearly an effective response .. and I'm sure you sense there's a "but" marching towards this conversation :) I can't say it upsets me that much .. I'd need to respect those who dish it out for it to do that. Do I get angry? .. perhaps a little, yes. I've tried to deal with the words with humour and dignity, but a well worn pattern was becoming established .. one person would rush in and hurl an epithet or two .. this would then be jumped on by the others .. someone would comment, if not me, and things would escalate and hey presto .. the thread would be locked or moved to Fight Club. And as others have pointed out, it creates an atmosphere where others are discouraged, lest they become the next target; where for someone to agree with me means they may be dismissed as my "cronies" or "sycophant friends"; and as we have heard, where some who were bullied at school have a flood of horrible memories come back to haunt them. As Sin said, we're not dealing with teenagers here .. we're talking about the behaviour of adults. How much does one take before saying "Enough"? It's a moot point, though one which I think was reached when Diane stepped in last week. It's the tip of an unpleasant iceberg. I can do little about what goes on unseen, but I can, with others, address what is on public show.
Please don't get me wrong .. it hasn't spoiled my world :) For most of my career when asked what motivates me I've said "To make a difference" .. I've always believed that's possible, and in many organisations I know I have :) Just there is a point where I prefer to confront an issue rather than avoid or tolerate it, and I certainly wouldn't leave a forum because of it, not as long as there are many people there I like and respect :) The phrase "silent majority" has been used in this thread. I find it hard to believe that the majority of people here would think name calling was acceptable, nor targeting one or two people for its repeated use.
but a well worn pattern was becoming established .. one person would rush in and hurl an epithet or two .. this would then be jumped on by the others .. someone would comment, if not me, and things would escalate and hey presto .. the thread would be locked or moved to Fight Club. And as others have pointed out, it creates an atmosphere where others are discouraged, lest they become the next target; where for someone to agree with me means they may be dismissed as my "cronies" or "sycophant friends";
Really don't like to drag this on, but I do feel that people are all trying to make their point on all sides and being afraid to actually say what they really feel. So they are sort of hinting at it, but the words don't actually come out if you know what I mean, this in itself leads to confusion. Anyway my point here is, that (and i'm really saying this in the nicest way posssible ) I don't agree with the bad abuse you or anyone have got, (as I said before one of these people has gave me my fair share of that abuse in emails after posting something here a while back, totally unrelated to any of this. ) but I do feel that sometimes you provoke the worst in people with your comments to them when they post. Hope you don't take that the worng way but thats how i;'m seeing it. Not that I agree with the verabl abuse, but I do see sometimes where people are coming from. So as I see what you're saying, there is another side to it all and i'd pretty much throw myself out on a limb to say this is how a lot feel. They just don't want to get abuse for saying it.
[/b]Just there is a point where I prefer to confront an issue rather than avoid or tolerate it, and I certainly wouldn't leave a forum because of it, not as long as there are many people there I like and respect The phrase "silent majority" has been used in this thread. I find it hard to believe that the majority of people here would think name calling was acceptable, nor targeting one or two people for its repeated use.
Same here, seeing people talk it in circles for days and getting know where fast trying to say how they feel but it not quite working, has made me speak up. And the phrase "silent majority" arent saying its ok for the name calling. But i'm sure they do feel the same as me. This isn't just about the name calling, we all accept thats wrong, it's the other points people are trying to make and they're just getting disregarded to bring back the abuse issue.
Hope everyone takes this in the calm, rational way I wrote it. It wasn't meant in anyway to get at anyone.way. Just trying to make things clearer from the "silent majorities" point of view :)
ewww the wrong bits got highlighted there lol, sorry
Deb
why does'nt everyone agree to dissagree . every one is entitled to their own view.
but when it involves name calling and insults ,its should not be done on these boards,please people lets put this to bed once and for all!
there will alllways be different opinions between you but that doesnt mean a verbal tennis match for 2 months.
this site is about meat not about pesonal differences.
we are all fans on this site in our own wayand shuold be able to exspress our own views without fear of recriminations
its christmass the season of good will lets see some among meat loaf fans lets start the new year as we mean to go on as a comunity with one common purpose meat loaf
(here endeth my xmass sermon)
ChrissybabezNI
08 Dec 2003, 14:04
Just because its said as "you're talking bollocks" or "you're talking crap" doesn't it in my opinion make it any worse than "the sugar coated" versions. Putting people down for their opinions without name calling and by carefully chosing your words, so it doesnt look so bad ( but seems a lot can still see past that) doesn't make it ok.
I see where your'e coming from on this statement. When people sugar coat their words it is sometimes hard to determine just exactly what they mean. And it is a lot easier to say 'you're talking crap' than mince your words and make it sound nicer, and I'm not saying thats OK but I have to disagree. As I believe its better to mince your words (in an unbiased way) so as not to offend the person youre talking to instead of just hitting them with insults and profanities, it also makes for a more readable forum, that way you can disagree with someone without taking the 'I'm right you're wrong' stance. But , I guess the best thing to do would be 'If you have'nt got anything nice to say then take some time out to calm down and re read what you think may have been wrong' Try to see other points of view And please Don't take that as me saying 'don't post on the board'
Please don't be offended by anything I have written.
Chrissy
I agree with what you're saying Chrissy. Mostly anyway lol.. but I didn't mean people are sugar coating it in a way to soften the blow, but more to not seem like they're having a dig when they are. Think I put that right lol What I mean is i'd rather in a way know what someone means and if they say it out right you do, its when they dig without actually saying it that things get complicated and make for a bad atmosphere. I'd much prefer everyone to feel they can post how they feel without worrying what people will read into it etc. After all as lots have said, we wont always all agree, there's to many different types of people (as listed by David lol) I'd just like for those of us who are more type 1, could feel like they aren't gonna get their heads bitten off everytime they don't just say everything Meat does is right or whatever. Don't get me wrong, I adore Meaty but I don't think every single thing he does is my world. (not that theres anything wrong with it if he is to a lot of people) Infact to Me Meat Loaf means more Meat Loaf and the rest of the band. To me they are all important. Hope i've came across how I meant this, it's in no way meant to put anyone down, just trying to say all of us have a right to say how we feel.
But yep I agree much better not to post than to deliberately put someone down for their posts.
Deb
Chrissy wrote:
I believe its better to mince your words (in an unbiased way) so as not to offend the person youre talking to instead of just hitting them with insults and profanities, it also makes for a more readable forum, that way you can disagree with someone without taking the 'I'm right you're wrong' stance.
I agree completely. It's not sugar coating, just courteously trying to confront the issue rather than the person :)
Deb wrote that in her view I sometimes:
.... provoke the worst in people with your comments to them when they post. Hope you don't take that the worng way but thats how i;'m seeing it. Not that I agree with the verabl abuse, but I do see sometimes where people are coming from. So as I see what you're saying, there is another side to it all and i'd pretty much throw myself out on a limb to say this is how a lot feel. They just don't want to get abuse for saying it.
I'm not I hope taking this the wrong way. I would like to respond with a couple of points. As I've said my posts are not intended as patronising or "holier than thou". I speak when I have something to say, I write with conviction and articulately. I write with most conviction when Meat is being sniped at, or when I or others are being attacked. When people speak against me, my opinions or beliefs they do not get verbal abuse from me. That's not my way, and I don't believe I have set any example which should lead anyone to fear that. When I have been talked down to in this forum it has not provoked "the worst" in me, although I might well respond tongue in cheek! I have disagreed with you on a number of points, but I believe I have done this with courtesy, with clear language, without patronising you, and without resorting to abuse. And if I use clear language, but choose it carefully so as not to give you cause for feeling offence, it is done simply and honestly for just that reason, not to "have a dig" at you without saying what I really mean, or to put you down :).
You say you agree about verbal abuse, and those who have been doing this have imo done so for their own agenda and one which has little excuse of "provocation" .. as many have observed, this is a Meat Loaf fansite, and to be hypercritical of him or snipe at him here is to expect some form of response from those of us who come here first and foremost as afficionados of Meat, and who have seen his distress at what he described as "putdowns, Lies and just plan being angry over what I don't know". As to the "silent majority", I don't believe I've ever said "You're wrong!" just posted my own view as articulately as I can, saying that it's my belief or my view.
Just trying to get my head around this one.... think its there....
right here goes.
I for one am not taking anything you've said to me in a bad way at all. You have been everything you say in this topic to me. But I have witnessed you do it to others in other topics. For example: the guy who said Meat was looking old in the press conference ( or how ever it was worded) I didn't think he was being out of order as i'm sure a lot of other people didn't. I saw no reason for your "and your point is?" comment. At Meats age i'm sure he will come to expect this sort of thing lol, i'm 42 and noticing the age comments creeping in all the time as i go through life, it's no biggy and I wouldn't expect people to go around speaking up in my defense for it all the time, it's not nice when it hits home that you're not 21 anymore, but its life. And to be honset the same thing had crossed my mind when i saw the interview. i'm not syaing I thoguht 2oh look Meat looks sooo old" not at all, but i'm sure some people know what I mean. Don't want to make this a whole point about the age thing as that was just an example. And as i've said before i think meat is wonderful, doesn't mean we all have to herp worship him either (not that theres anything bad about that, just as there isnt for those of us that don't.) ewww the more I go on the more i seem to be digging m,yself a hole big enough to get abused lol, maybe this is how others feel when they feel they need to put their point across. A lot of these issues wouldn't be made so big, if people didn't jump on with the "and your point is" type of posts back. I for one would never do it to you, if you posted saying how much you idolise meat, even if I don't feel the same way about him. it's your opinion and thats fine by me. I just think others should be allowed that privalige.
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:16 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chrissy wrote:
Quote:
I believe its better to mince your words (in an unbiased way) so as not to offend the person youre talking to instead of just hitting them with insults and profanities, it also makes for a more readable forum, that way you can disagree with someone without taking the 'I'm right you're wrong' stance.
I agree completely. It's not sugar coating, just courteously trying to confront the issue rather than the person
Deb wrote that in her view I sometimes:
Quote:
.... provoke the worst in people with your comments to them when they post. Hope you don't take that the worng way but thats how i;'m seeing it. Not that I agree with the verabl abuse, but I do see sometimes where people are coming from. So as I see what you're saying, there is another side to it all and i'd pretty much throw myself out on a limb to say this is how a lot feel. They just don't want to get abuse for saying it.
I'm not I hope taking this the wrong way. I would like to respond with a couple of points. As I've said my posts are not intended as patronising or "holier than thou". I speak when I have something to say, I write with conviction and articulately. I write with most conviction when Meat is being sniped at, or when I or others are being attacked. When people speak against me, my opinions or beliefs they do not get verbal abuse from me. That's not my way, and I don't believe I have set any example which should lead anyone to fear that. When I have been talked down to in this forum it has not provoked "the worst" in me, although I might well respond tongue in cheek! I have disagreed with you on a number of points, but I believe I have done this with courtesy, with clear language, without patronising you, and without resorting to abuse. And if I use clear language, but choose it carefully so as not to give you cause for feeling offence, it is done simply and honestly for just that reason, not to "have a dig" at you without saying what I really mean, or to put you down .
You say you agree about verbal abuse, and those who have been doing this have imo done so for their own agenda and one which has little excuse of "provocation" ..[b]
Not sure quite what you mean there, do you mean me? because i have no agenda here. Unlike a lot of people on this board I have no previous conceptions of anyone.
as many have observed, this is a Meat Loaf fansite, and to be hypercritical of him or snipe at him here is to expect some form of response from those of us who come here first and foremost as afficionados of Meat, and who have seen his distress at what he described as "putdowns, Lies and just plan being angry over what I don't know". As to the "silent majority", I don't believe I've ever said "You're wrong!" just posted my own view as articulately as I can, saying that it's my belief or my view.
Yes it is a Meat Loaf fansite, but who defines fan? there are so many different types. Yes we all saw his distress but Meat himself apologied over that, why does it have to keep being dragged out? Many people abused that person for what he said, you included. Not once has anyone who did apologised to him. Except Meat. if he can admit he was wrong why can't many others. I don't want to go into this as the person in question is a very decent person & I respect him very much. He took far more than anyone I have seen on here take for having an opinion. And he responded with dignity, he let it go. Even though he did nothing wrong. I'm sure at some time we've all said something that Meat wouldn't like, even you caryl :) maybe unknowingly, but still been said or done. Would you like to be publicly hung for it?
think i've just about talked myself out on this, seems we just plain don't see it the same. You see it as you're just posting your view, a lot of people see it as you're putting them down. I spose as they say thats the trouble with the internet.
I have 5 children ranging in ages from 21yrs to 18months. Many times i've felt the need to step in and defend them but life is that they need to stand up for themselves when need be & learn to deal with the knocks. Meat is far old enough to do that for himself to :wink:
Please could anyone refrain from taking anything I've said as anti Meat in anyway. I'm here because I love Meat and his music. if I didnt I wouldn't of done 22 shows on the 99 tour and be doing 15 on this one. :D
Deb
Deb
In the example you give I was responding on a celebratory thread to the comment made when people were saying how great it was that Meat was recovered and back on form, "yeah, good news... i have to disagree though, i though meat was looking good, but old " accompanied by a sad face.I actually said "He looks good .. he's 56 .. your point being?" OK, a bit more curt than I am usually, and I should have asked the poster what was being disagreed with, but it was interesting that later he said something to the effect that Meat looked good for his age .. which didn't seem to be the point originally suggested. I don't believe it warranted being called a demented old bag. I didn't, for example, say "Are you suggesting he looks old for his age you miserable git?" :)
Those to whom I referred as having their "own agenda which has little excuse of 'provocation' " are the small group who were habitually calling me and others derogatory names, and those responsible for the list I put at the start of this thread. So, no, I am not suggesting you are one of these. But I did not "abuse" Michael for saying what he did; far from it. I said I honestly believed he did not mean to upset Meat, but that if he had enjoyed the show so much it might have been more sensitive to Meat's feelings not to have included negative comment. Meat aplogised for what he said to Michael, but he did not apologise for taking offence at continuous put-downs.
I've not taken anything you've said as anti-Meat in any way, because you've said nothing anti-Meat. I've never publicly hanged anyone. If you think my posts are patronising and/or "holier than thou" we shall, as you suggest, have to agree to disagree :)
original sin
08 Dec 2003, 21:53
Put in the whole context it doesn't sound how I initially saw it. (just shows how use of words can make things seem different lol)
Which takes me nicely back to my previous point.
and then, imo, we are back to personal opinion and interpretation, like I said in my earlier post, each of us will see this in different places, and not necessarily the same place
and also highlights the danger of zooming into one phrase rather than taking the spirit of a post as a whole
I usually let what I perceive to be patronising and condecending posts wash over me, and just object to downright open nastiness. In future maybe I should bring my feelings to the authors attention......
As a newcomer to the community, I read your comments with some amusement, and although I agree that everyone should choose their words a bit more carefully and not resort to abusive language, in overall what I see is a group of people, really strong characters, with strong opinions and obviously very stong feelings for Meat.
He is quite lucky to have such a dedicated base of fans on this site.
I personaly do not think that describing him as looking 'old' was an abuse or any way negative - he has just had an operation (or a procedure) and have been poorly for weeks. I myself said he looked tired - but does not mean that I love him less - I was just worried for his health.
When we love someone, it is also ok to be honest/ critical even when not everybody may agree with our preception
When we love someone, it is also ok to be honest/ critical even when not everybody may agree with our preception
This is one of the most true statements I have read thus far in this matter. I know that sometimes I come off as hyper-critical of Meat Loaf about certain things. But, I believe in telling the truth - not sugar coating the issues.
For example, when I saw Meat Loaf perform in Cleveland, Ohio, this summer, I saw an amazing show. When I saw Meat Loaf perform in Detroit (just one week later), I was somewhat disappointed with the show, as compared to Cleveland. In my humble but honest opinion, Meat Loaf was having a very bad night that night. Quite honestly, I was very concerned that evening, as were the other people who I knew (who know Meat Loaf shows very well). Meat Loaf was not on top of his form that night. I am not saying it was a bad show by any means, but you could tell Meat Loaf was not feeling 100% when he hit the stage. He dropped his mic at least two times I can remember, was having problems keeping a grip on the scarf, and was having to utilize humor to cover up these things.
Having said this, does this make me any less of a fan? I woulc certainly say a resounding "NO!"
I know there are many on this board who I have chatted with on the various messengers (BTW, I LOVE CHATTING!!!) who have expressed they feel the same way about Meat Loaf shows they have been to, but are inhibited from posting true feelings here due to the way people are attacked for making honest assessments of Meat Loaf, rather than just going along with the whole concept that Meat Loaf is perfect in every way.
It further sickens me the way that when confronted with this issue, that people attempt to differ, but they can't. There are some on this board that are just stuck in a Type 2 mind set - that it is all about Meat Loaf. There are some that even feel the need to point out that Meat Loaf would agree with their points of view as well (at every turn).
I just cannot state enough that I fully disagree with the way people such as myself (Type 1 Meat Loaf fan) are, at times, attacked and terrorized by Type 2 Meat Loaf fans. Yet, the Type 2 Meat Loaf fans are always considered to be "victims" in this matter and Type 1 Meat Loaf fans are considered "bad people" because they are not blindly worshiping at the alter of Loafdom.
Double standard on the board??? Oh yeah - it cuts both ways missy, and you can take that one to the bank!!!
ROCK ON DOUBLE STANDARDS!!!
I've not taken anything you've said as anti-Meat in any way, because you've said nothing anti-Meat. I've never publicly hanged anyone. If you think my posts are patronising and/or "holier than thou" we shall, as you suggest, have to agree to disagree :)
AMEN SISTER!!
I would like to be added to the list of people who would wholeheartedly agree to diagree on this point! Where do I sign up???
I fully believe I have gotten this type of treatment from you on many occasions. Do you not think that referring to someone as a child and repeatedly calling them "boy" is not demeaning and patronising?
You constantly like to remind people how intelligent you are. You are always using goofy latin terms that no one understands to make points (that are for the most part lost due to no one knowing what you are saying). You are constantly using obscure references that would require research to discover (if I cared enough to look).
Maybe if you would stop trying to rise above everyone, and just join the crowd you might have a better time on the board. Seeing, as you state, your intelligence is higher than most, maybe the reason people resort to name-calling with you is because that is all we are capable of doing in our meger exsistence?
There is one thing to try to expand someone's horizons and to belittle someone.
Also, maybe you should take less time to continually re-inforce your opinions (i.e., your Rhette Butler line), a simple IMHO works just fine and makes people feel a lot less stupid for disagreeing wiht you. I feel statements like these are added for the sole intent to re-inforce a superiority issue somewhere. I know that is why I add them to posts here and there. Statements like these are made for an intended impact, not just as part of normal speech. Sorry, but many of us are indeed fully put off by your constant use of them.
ROCK ON AGREE TO DISAGREE!!!!
Double standards is that a new rock group?
Rosie :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
only, only 2 shifts left :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
David, you posted twice, and some of what you said in your first post appeared to go wider than a reply to Edit.
I have never "terrorised" anybody in this forum, although I have disagreed with people, and even suggested that Meat might get fed up visiting a board where he was constantly being sniped at .. as indeed proved the case.
As to your assertion that "some that even feel the need to point out that Meat Loaf would agree with their points of view as well (at every turn).", I do not know to whom you refer .. if it is me, it is a gross exaggeration., and I don't believe I have seen anyone do this.
As to this thread, I started it because I did not think anyone deserved to have the repeated name calling by a few people that I spoke of in my opening post. As far as "patronising" or "holier than thou" .. I'd just say I would find to be called "missy" a good example of the former, but as Sin and others have repeatedly said, that's about style and interpretation.
But most people would take offence at being called a "demented old bag" or being accused of "wilfully deceiving Meat Loaf fans". There's little room for interpretation there, and that was why I started the thread. I am unaware of any previous discussions in which what you describe as Meat Loaf Type 2 fans "are always considered to be victims'". Adding different examples of people's style of reply, or attacking them, does not take away from the central issue that most people seem to be agreed upon .. name calling is rude and should not be acceptable.
ADDITION:
I drafted my reply and posted it without refreshing the page as I was about to leave to go to last night's superb Meat Loaf concert, so didn't see the last five paras added in your edit David.
I've always tried to express myself clearly, and you have most certainly made your feelings clear, even if some of your assertions are completely false (I have never, let alone "repeatedly", called you "boy" for eg, nor ever stated on this board that my "intelligence is higher than most") and others wild exaggerations. I write using the English I was taught. I have no idea what makes a Latin term "goofy"; those I have on odd occasions used (and not "constantly") are pretty common in the UK, and this is the UK forum; one was the motto of our Royal family, seemed appropriate and would not be unfamiliar to many British people.
My Rhet Butler line was added because so often when I wrote something positive about Meat, one or two people would come in accusing me of being a sycophant .. Yes, it was intended to have an impact .. why write if that is not the case? .. but I used it pre-emptively and not to "re-inforce a superiority issue somewhere". You say that is why you add them to posts here and there. We are all now clear about your motivation and intentions, but yours are not mine.
No further comment on the rest.
Winston
11 Dec 2003, 17:16
AMEN DAVID WE HAVE A BELIEVER
name calling is rude and should not be acceptable.
The same as patronising other people in the Meat Loaf community.
ROCK ON FIRE BALL!!!
MEAT LOAF TRIBUTE
11 Dec 2003, 17:24
Well said david! Havent always agreed with you, but on the points you have raised it appears we are singing from the same hymn sheet. Not going to repeat myself but i have expressed a simaler line of thought on the meat loafs not god thread. :wink:
Is this still a discussion or is it just about slagging people off?
I think it is starting to get a little bit too personal
Caryl wrote:As Sin said, we're not dealing with teenagers here .. we're talking about the behaviour of adults.
:??: I think the kids in the community are starting to squabble again Edit
(expect I'm being patronizing but this does seem to be degenerating into a familiar theme)
original sin
12 Dec 2003, 03:37
Is this still a discussion or is it just about slagging people off?
I think it is starting to get a little bit too personal
me thinks you maybe right :roll:
and quite frankly
1/ I can't be bothered to go around in circles
2/ I beleiev what I have said before, which is that we will see diferent things in different post, and we will not necessarily have the feelings as each other about the content
and to save my self going over old gound i'll do this...
I will never be able to agree that it acceptable to use derogatory terms in public forums, and I personally find that when this happens any valid point or position is immediately lost.
In our cyber community we are relying solely on the written word and a lot can be potentially lost by not seeing the grin on someone’s face or the twinkle in their eye that goes with their words.
Which is why I have said that the interpretation of words can be a personal thing based on different factors. We will all see the different “attitudes” mentioned in previous posts, and if we discussed these there would be a difference of opinion, because that it what it is , an opinion. Yet when we have darn right rudeness or offensive name calling I think we should all stand united in agreeing that it is unacceptable.
I think Flying mouse summed things up well a few pages back
My opinion is that everyone has the right to their own opinion.Just as everyone has the right to disagree.When people resort to insults they not only make MLUKFC an uncomfortable place to visit, they undermine their own arguments.Making a coherent point with examples is one thing, but acting like a loony will only result in you being treated like a loony.It seems to me that those who throw insults round do themselves harm more than anything else.
It also strikes me that there are those who seem to disagree/agree with certain people on matter of principle.I think this is wrong.I am personally happy to agree with a person on one thing and disagree with them two minutes later on another topic with absouloutly no hard feelings.There is a world of difference between agreeing with a person,and what the person is saying.
shadow1000001
12 Dec 2003, 04:45
Caryl wrote:As Sin said, we're not dealing with teenagers here .. we're talking about the behaviour of adults.
:??: I think the kids in the community are starting to squabble again Edit
(expect I'm being patronizing but this does seem to be degenerating into a familiar theme)
I think that you are right, on all points :wink:
Maria
Think my previous post was condescending and patronising so sorry.
I've read lots of posts from both David and Caryl and I have a lot of respect for both of them. Just hate it when they get into attack and defence mode... and other people take sides.....
Think my previous post was condescending and patronising so sorry.
I've read lots of posts from both David and Caryl and I have a lot of respect for both of them. Just hate it when they get into attack and defence mode... and other people take sides.....
I hate when this happens to, but I will not sit back and allow anyone to be bullied in any way. I will once again (because some people are thick-headed and will not listen) state that name calling is a horrible thing, but I also firmly believe that others have bullied and tortured others with belittlement and condecending statements. A sin is a sin - there is no degree - black or white. I really feel that not only myself, but many others have been treated with less respect than deserved on this board, and other Meat Loaf forums and e-mail lists. I further think it is shallow and lowly of someone to make snipes at other Meat Loaf fans on private lists they know the person is not subscribed to. I believe that all Meat Loaf fans are extremely special and all deserve all the respect and dignity in the universe. I will not fade quietly in the night on this matter. I want you all to know I love each and everyone of you with every fiber of my being. I love every member of this board and wish only the best for you. I might disagree wth you, or think that actions you take may not be the most ethical, I still respect and hold a special place in my heart for all Meat Loaf fans. I even have love for people who I believe have wronged me. I pray for all of you every day. My fellow Meat Loaf fans mean more to me than any of you will ever know!
ROCK ON LOVE ALL!!!
original sin
14 Dec 2003, 22:31
Em, I didn't think you were patronising - frustrated yes and I’d agree.
Personally I don’t take sides, I will state what I feel on the merits of any given situation.
I have said time and time again that Flying Mouse summed things up well when he said:-
It also strikes me that there are those who seem to disagree/agree with certain people on matter of principle.I think this is wrong.I am personally happy to agree with a person on one thing and disagree with them two minutes later on another topic with absouloutly no hard feelings.There is a world of difference between agreeing with a person,and what the person is saying.
That to me is the crux of things. Anyone if they choose, can interpret what they want how they want to.
Caryl, brought a legitimate question to these boards as to what should be called reasonable “behaviour” on these boards, not anywhere else on the net, here, mlukfc.com, which is a special place for many people.
This has evolved into a discussion on people’s writing style and how this is interpreted by others.
But I will say again, the key word here is interpretation.
I find it highly amusing that all the attributes that are targeted at Caryl on this occasion I have felt time and again on reading some posts by David’s and others. However, even when I have read a post that I feel to be condescending, patronising or demeaning, and I go on to read something else written by the same person, this does not effect how I view that post.
We have all been agreement in the past, when David’s posts were copied from these forums to another, that this was not acceptable. Other boards and other lists are not mlukfc.
As for respect, that is earned by our deeds and actions is not an automatic favour dispensed on a whim, nor for position, rank, or wealth.
Fortunately I do not believe we are 2 distinct types of people on these forums, we are a multitude of nations, types, and personalities. What a fantastic mix! Yet, just a bond of music does not and will not mean that we see "life" in the same light, we will not have the same likes and dislikes in other matters.
Life is not an easy or straight road and I believe that basically civility costs nothing. If you read something and it is not abusive or rude, yet you take offence, question why.
Whilst I reserve the right to make comment statement and express my views on these forums, I hope to do so with out causing offence and that is never my intention . Should anyone feel this way I would appreciate if they contacted me directly, and privately, to enable me to rectify matters.
As this seems to be the feelings of so many I would suggest they do likewise.
Also regarding this thread, I am not going to get in the cycle of wanting the last word on thread, and will post no more.
As for respect, that is earned by our deeds and actions is not an automatic favour dispensed on a whim, nor for position, rank, or wealth.
I am sorry you do not feel everyone deserves respect. I do. I believe we all deserve respect, no matter what!
ROCK ON RESPECT ALL!!!
Hafta say, i agree with Sin that nobody deserves respect as an automatic right, respect is something that has to be earned.
I believe in having a common curtesey for everyone, that is only polite and politeness costs nothing.
I was brought up to be polite and curteous to people and to expect the same back. In today's society i think politeness and common curtesy have fallen by the wayside in favour of people saying 'well this is my opinion and i have a right for it to be heard' reguardless of how it impacts on others.
As for everyone deserving respect no matter what - i really can't take with that. Respect should merited on actions and words rather than something to be taken for granted.
Hafta say, i agree with Sin that nobody deserves respect as an automatic right, respect is something that has to be earned.
I believe in having a common curtesey for everyone, that is only polite and politeness costs nothing.
I was brought up to be polite and curteous to people and to expect the same back. In today's society i think politeness and common curtesy have fallen by the wayside in favour of people saying 'well this is my opinion and i have a right for it to be heard' reguardless of how it impacts on others.
As for everyone deserving respect no matter what - i really can't take with that. Respect should merited on actions and words rather than something to be taken for granted.
Absolutely right Heat .. I couldn't agree more !
Vicki
As for everyone deserving respect no matter what - i really can't take with that. Respect should merited on actions and words rather than something to be taken for granted.
Absolutely right Heat .. I couldn't agree more !
*sigh*
It is a shame you two feel like that. I always thought that Meat Loaf fans were the most loving, caring group of individuals who walked the face of the earth. I guess I am wrong. Sounds to me like I am seeing two Meat Loaf fans who could be considered to be less than loving to all they come in contact with. I am sorry you have a lack of respect in your heart for people, and pray that maybe one day you will find it in your heart to treat everyone with equal respect and show everyone just as much love as you can muster. Now, when I feel that someone is in the wrong, I will do everything I can to make it right - even if I have to make someone feel as if I have stepped on his or her toes.
LOVE ALL ~ RESPECT ALL
ROCK ON SAD DAY!!!
As for everyone deserving respect no matter what - i really can't take with that. Respect should merited on actions and words rather than something to be taken for granted.
Absolutely right Heat .. I couldn't agree more !
*sigh*
It is a shame you two feel like that. I always thought that Meat Loaf fans were the most loving, caring group of individuals who walked the face of the earth. I guess I am wrong. Sounds to me like I am seeing two Meat Loaf fans who could be considered to be less than loving to all they come in contact with. I am sorry you have a lack of respect in your heart for people, and pray that maybe one day you will find it in your heart to treat everyone with equal respect and show everyone just as much love as you can muster. Now, when I feel that someone is in the wrong, I will do everything I can to make it right - even if I have to make someone feel as if I have stepped on his or her toes.
LOVE ALL ~ RESPECT ALL
ROCK ON SAD DAY!!!
David, I try to live by the Golden Rule ... "do unto others as would have them do unto you". I try to give everyone the respect they deserve .. and can honestly say I've been treated the same way in return.
However, Caryl is a very dear friend of mine, and I know that certain individuals on this forum, such as yourself, have hurt her deeply with their verbal abuse and lack of respect for her feelings. Let's just say that if you hurt my friends you hurt me too ...... and any respect I may have had for you is gone.
Vicki
ChrissybabezNI
15 Dec 2003, 02:57
and any respect I may have had for you is gone.
This sums up how I feel on the matter pretty well. I think respect is there, and by actions of people it can be strengthened, weakened or lost entirely :) (BTW I'm not referring to anyone on here or anyone the quote I used referred to just summing up my point of view) :D [/quote]
About deserving or earning respect... never thought about that. Come to think about that... I've never felt disrespected or abused on mlukfc. Nor any other group....
And I always have an opinion. No one on mlukfc has ever treated me disrespectfully. I do feel respected here by everyone, regardless my opinions or personallity or whatever.
But I hate people getting hurt and that's what I saw a few times on this forum. And I just don't like that, to say the least. Regardless of the person it is happening to. And - sorry to say this - it better NOT happen to me because I'd be mad as hell and respond in pissed-modus :twisted:
But about earning... I reply and watch a few topics here. And I feel respected. I DO... and yet I am one of the members that always speak their piece.....
shadow1000001
15 Dec 2003, 03:33
I have to say that I agree with Guppie on this one. I always seem to have an opinion as well :wink: and I have never felt disrespected or abused for it.
I don't totally agree with Sin and Heat on the point of respect though. Personally, I feel that everyone deserves respect in one measure or another. For me, it's the way people treat each other which lessons or increases the amount of respect that they get, but the respect is always there at the beginning. I guess that it goes back to "do unto others".
Maria ~ Just my opinion :wink:
ChrissybabezNI
15 Dec 2003, 03:54
Hear Hear
The thing is Guppie, I have always expressed my views clearly and courteously, only taking issue with people who snipe at Meat. I was pissed when I was accused of deceiving people, and when a card intended for my mailing list only was published on the web and all in this forum invited to see and disapprove of it. I was attacked for defending myself. I have been subjected to a campaign of name-calling by a small group here, which I have borne with patience and humour, but when it became too much and I raised the issue, I find my self now being accused of being patronising, holier than thou, asserting that I am more intelligent than the rest of you, bullying and terrorising people, and told I might want to consider taking a holiday from the forum.
The fact that I have never terrorised anybody here, that I have never claimed to have superior intelligence, have not said many of the things I have been accused of saying, seems neither here nor there. When I point out I have not said something this is ignored, and another tack is taken. Others may speak plainly, may say the same as I do. This is accepted without demur. That people seem ready to say that name-calling is unreasonable behaviour has imo been marred by some mounting a counter attack claiming that I bully and terrorise people. Not to put too fine a point on it that's balls.
As to respect, I approach people with an open mind. To disagree with someone is not to disrespect them, and I would never say "With the greatest respect .." and then go on to say the person was talking nonsense. But people can lose my respect. They do this when they hurl abuse; they do this when they make public attacks on me; they do this when they make false accusations about me to colleagues/friends; they do this when they make wild assertions, and when I point out these are not so ignore what I have said, and throw in another set for good measure.
The one thing which is clear is that for some people here I will be ever at fault. So be it. Let them huff and puff, exaggerate and stray from the truth. I'm done with them. I shall not rise to the bait, but will continue to post and discuss things with the many people here who are able to conduct conversation without sniping or waging some bizarre vendetta, and who have my respect.
As for respect, that is earned by our deeds and actions is not an automatic favour dispensed on a whim, nor for position, rank, or wealth.
I am sorry you do not feel everyone deserves respect. I do. I believe we all deserve respect, no matter what!
ROCK ON RESPECT ALL!!!
David, you mean to tell me then, that you respect people that would refer to another human being as:
demented old bag
sycophantic
unhealthy
sad
having withdrawal symptoms
on my third bottle of gin
witchfinder general
sergeant burton
the thought police
not having a life
raving "psycophantically"
an obsessed lunatic
should be certified
bull shitting
Caryl b (b is for bollocks)
someone who would hound radio stations "like she does" to get a CD of Meat's farts played
using Meat Loaf shower gel and toothpaste
kissing Meat's arse
???
That's okay in your book? Is that what you are telling me? You say no matter what? I'm just trying to get this straight in my mind.
You respect people that would use these hurtful phrases against another human being?
Well, I don't. I don't respect them and I certainly can't LOVE them.
And I can't find the book or rule or law that says I HAVE to. And I'm telling you right now, I WON'T be put down for feeling that way.
I'll try my best to get along. That's all I can possibly do. That's the control I will have over myself. The rest is ruled by netiquette.
IMO, if netiquette was out the window tomorrow all the held in check politeness that has been going on on this thread would be out the window. And if everyone would be HONEST with themselves, they'd agree.
The TENSION is so thick in here, you could cut it with a feather.
original sin
15 Dec 2003, 16:16
I have to say that I agree with Guppie on this one. I always seem to have an opinion as well and I have never felt disrespected or abused for it.
I don't totally agree with Sin and Heat on the point of respect though. Personally, I feel that everyone deserves respect in one measure or another. For me, it's the way people treat each other which lessons or increases the amount of respect that they get, but the respect is always there at the beginning. I guess that it goes back to "do unto others".
Maria ~ Just my opinion
Maria
I can fully understand your view point. Personally I, like Heat has expressed, acknowledge the right of every individual to receive common courtesy, a dignified approach and be free of degrading treatment. However in my book RESPECT is on a different level altogether.
I can communicate with different people and personalities and will at all times treat them in a dignified and courteous manner, this does not mean I respect them. It means I am a polite and courteous person.
I do not think Sadam Hussain qualifies for my respect, nor many others I could name.
Yes, respect will increase with acts and deeds but it also (imho) needs a start point., and that will grow and develop as your relationship shapes. This of course is accepting that it starts from mutual courtesy and diginity.
I think it is totally different to respect the right of the individual to receive an expected standard, I.e courtesy, dignity, equality and freedom of speech than to have respect for the actual individual.
Using Sadam Hussain again as an example, I do not and cannot have respect for the man, but I respect his right to a free and fair trial.
Likewise I do not profess to love the world, because, I can’t and I don’t and even acknowledging my many faults, I am never insincere or hypocritical. That’s my standard.
Sin - (who thinks she now may have covered all her thoughts and feelings)
As for everyone deserving respect no matter what - i really can't take with that. Respect should merited on actions and words rather than something to be taken for granted.
Absolutely right Heat .. I couldn't agree more !
I am seeing two Meat Loaf fans who could be considered to be less than loving to all they come in contact with. I am sorry you have a lack of respect in your heart for people, and pray that maybe one day you will find it in your heart to treat everyone with equal respect and show everyone just as much love as you can muster.
Firstly David, let me say that you do not know me, all you know of me is the personna that i have chosen to face these forums with, so therefore it's not your job to either judge me nor decide just how loving and caring a person i am.
You say that 'you pray one day that you will find it in your heart to treat everyone with equal respect'. As i have stated before, for me, Respect is something that has to be earned. I can honestly say that i don't respect you - how can i? i don't know you. All i know of you is what you have chosen to show me. What i do have, however, is the curtesy and good manners to accpet your opinions and points of view even if i don't always agree with them. Just because i can't give you my respect, doesn't mean that i have any less of a reguard for you than i do some other members of this forum.
I'm sorry that you think my views on respect are less important than your views, but that's ok. As an adult of moderate intelligence, i'm sensible enough to know that not everybody is going to get on all of the time. That's ok too. However, what isn't ok is when certain people are persecuted for expressing opinions and thoughts. That's just not on.
As for everyone deserving respect no matter what - i really can't take with that. Respect should merited on actions and words rather than something to be taken for granted.
Absolutely right Heat .. I couldn't agree more !
I am seeing two Meat Loaf fans who could be considered to be less than loving to all they come in contact with. I am sorry you have a lack of respect in your heart for people, and pray that maybe one day you will find it in your heart to treat everyone with equal respect and show everyone just as much love as you can muster.
Firstly David, let me say that you do not know me, all you know of me is the personna that i have chosen to face these forums with, so therefore it's not your job to either judge me nor decide just how loving and caring a person i am.
You say that 'you pray one day that you will find it in your heart to treat everyone with equal respect'. As i have stated before, for me, Respect is something that has to be earned. I can honestly say that i don't respect you - how can i? i don't know you. All i know of you is what you have chosen to show me. What i do have, however, is the curtesy and good manners to accpet your opinions and points of view even if i don't always agree with them. Just because i can't give you my respect, doesn't mean that i have any less of a reguard for you than i do some other members of this forum.
I'm sorry that you think my views on respect are less important than your views, but that's ok. As an adult of moderate intelligence, i'm sensible enough to know that not everybody is going to get on all of the time. That's ok too. However, what isn't ok is when certain people are persecuted for expressing opinions and thoughts. That's just not on.
Once again Heat ... I Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself :)
Thank you !!!!!
Vicki
shadow1000001
15 Dec 2003, 20:14
I have to say that I agree with Guppie on this one. I always seem to have an opinion as well and I have never felt disrespected or abused for it.
I don't totally agree with Sin and Heat on the point of respect though. Personally, I feel that everyone deserves respect in one measure or another. For me, it's the way people treat each other which lessons or increases the amount of respect that they get, but the respect is always there at the beginning. I guess that it goes back to "do unto others".
Maria ~ Just my opinion
Maria
I can fully understand your view point. Personally I, like Heat has expressed, acknowledge the right of every individual to receive common courtesy, a dignified approach and be free of degrading treatment. However in my book RESPECT is on a different level altogether.
I can communicate with different people and personalities and will at all times treat them in a dignified and courteous manner, this does not mean I respect them. It means I am a polite and courteous person.
I do not think Sadam Hussain qualifies for my respect, nor many others I could name.
Yes, respect will increase with acts and deeds but it also (imho) needs a start point., and that will grow and develop as your relationship shapes. This of course is accepting that it starts from mutual courtesy and diginity.
I think it is totally different to respect the right of the individual to receive an expected standard, I.e courtesy, dignity, equality and freedom of speech than to have respect for the actual individual.
Using Sadam Hussain again as an example, I do not and cannot have respect for the man, but I respect his right to a free and fair trial.
Likewise I do not profess to love the world, because, I can’t and I don’t and even acknowledging my many faults, I am never insincere or hypocritical. That’s my standard.
Sin - (who thinks she now may have covered all her thoughts and feelings)
I want to thank you Sin for fully explaining that to me. I really appreciate it :D
Maria
David Driskell wrote
I want you all to know I love each and everyone of you with every fiber of my being. I love every member of this board and wish only the best for you.
Then elsewhere
J & T!!!!
You both should be certified as unhealthy, obsessed lunatic, sycophantic, sad people having withdrawal symptoms on your third bottle of gin for thinking this is a good idea!!! HEE HEE!!! Seriously, and the fact that the thought police almost had me talked into thinking this was a good idea as well is crazy!!! HEE HEE!!! All I can say is make sure to pack up your Meat Loaf shower gel and toothpaste when you go!!!
YOU SUCK!!!
J O K I N G !!!
I rest my case
But Caryl... I read that post too and I took that as humor, just a joke.. :?
Sorry Guppie .. as all these were words from the list of abuse to which I had been subjected, this is imo poor humour and at MY expense. And I thought you agreed these were abusive and hurtful :(
Must be the language-thing then, because I took it as a joke, that he was calling J and T those words because they are such devoted fans, just to show how stupid it would be to call them those words.
That's how I read the post.
:?
Must be the language-thing then, because I took it as a joke, that he was calling J and T those words because they are such devoted fans, just to show how stupid it would be to call them those words.
That's how I read the post.
:?
Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself :-)
ROCK ON DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!
Mike Piercy
16 Dec 2003, 14:21
I thought rock music was about having fun.
This is the Meat Loaf UK Fan Club and this debate is growing more tiresome by the day.
Any chance of getting back to Meat and his music :??:
Mike
Oh, this topic didn't get locked, the sticky one did.
Since I was involved in this topic too I'd like to respond one more time.
Diane wrote:
This whole "verbal abuse" thing has rattled on and on for what feels like an eternity and I'm sure I'm not the only one sick to death of it. It hit a new all-time low today and I am appalled that Meat's picture should be used to abuse other people. This is the ultimate in bad taste and shows a complete and utter disrespect for the man and his art. It is highly offensive to both Meat and the people it is aimed at.
I never meant to rattle on or bore folks on this forum. Initially I saw a valid point and responded. Name calling is NOT done. Simple. The picture that is mentioned by you and R: never saw that. Probably removed before I logged in?
I logg in every day on mlukfc. Can't keep up with all the posts, so I just randomly pick a few and choose "reminder" to help me remind where I reacted.
But since I'm one of the last persons to respond in the verbal abuse topic, I hope I didn't offend anyone or started something bad or anything. But if I did, I apologize.
I'm Dutch. My English is fairly well but it IS written text and a mistake is easily made. :?
So please, bare in mind that I'm Dutch?
Oh, this topic didn't get locked, the sticky one did.
Since I was involved in this topic too I'd like to respond one more time.
Diane wrote:
This whole "verbal abuse" thing has rattled on and on for what feels like an eternity and I'm sure I'm not the only one sick to death of it. It hit a new all-time low today and I am appalled that Meat's picture should be used to abuse other people. This is the ultimate in bad taste and shows a complete and utter disrespect for the man and his art. It is highly offensive to both Meat and the people it is aimed at.
I never meant to rattle on or bore folks on this forum. Initially I saw a valid point and responded. Name calling is NOT done. Simple. The picture that is mentioned by you and R: never saw that. Probably removed before I logged in?
But since I'm one of the last persons to respond in the verbal abuse topic, I hope I didn't offend anyone or started something bad or anything. But if I did, I apologize.
No Guppie, I'm not upset with you. I was mad at the double standards being employed here, Meat's picture being used to express other people's points of view in an offensive way and the fact that people can't just state their opinions and then agree to disagree.
We're all Meat Loaf fans (wouldn't be here otherwise) but we should all be tolerant of the fact that we don't all think alike, thank God, which should lead to good, healthy debate, not the backbiting squabbling we've seen of late.
Of course I'm not condoning name-calling in any way and can understand how hurtful it is to be on the receiving end. The person responsible was cautioned. If it had ended there it would have saved a lot of the unpleasantness that has been banded around here.
I like to think of us as a pretty unique bunch of people because we are all brought together by our love of Meat and his music. Many of us will be lucky enough to be seeing him in concert either now or in the New Year. I doubt I'm alone when I say that seeing Meat live on stage is the absolute icing on the cake. The last thing I want to do, especially at this time when I'm on a huge adrenalin rush, is to come here and read all the bitterness that is being posted. I can't imagine Meat appreciates it either when he comes here and reads it at a time when he would be hoping to bring so much enjoyment and excitement to his fans. Let's get on with enjoying the very special art that Meat brings to us all and allow each other the privilege to appreciate the pleasure he brings us in our own individual ways without fear of condemnation or contempt. It is after all supposed to be the season of peace and goodwill!!!
Diane
I'm Dutch. My English is fairly well but it IS written text and a mistake is easily made. :?
So please, bare in mind that I'm Dutch?
Guppie,
Your English is excellent, not only are your posts clear and concise and easy to read, they are very well written,.....you need have no worries there.
Bren
Let's get on with enjoying the very special art that Meat brings to us all and allow each other the privilege to appreciate the pleasure he brings us in our own individual ways without fear of condemnation or contempt. It is after all supposed to be the season of peace and goodwill!!!
Diane
Let's do that.
Thanks for explaining, Diane. I'm glad you weren't upset with me 8)
And Bren, thanks too for your comment.
ChrissybabezNI
18 Dec 2003, 01:15
I'm Dutch. My English is fairly well but it IS written text and a mistake is easily made. :?
So please, bare in mind that I'm Dutch?
Guppie,
Your English is excellent, not only are your posts clear and concise and easy to read, they are very well written,.....you need have no worries there.
Bren
I know its not part of the topic but I have to agree with this. Lots of people on here have English as a second (or maybe third?) language and you all speak it perfectly and your spelling is actually better than a lot of people who speak it as a first language. The only other language I can sort of speak is German, and I'm nowhere near this good, hoping to improve though.
Chrissy
rockfenris2005
23 Dec 2003, 16:08
I have no problems with Caryl. It's just that her animated Meat Loafs scare me - I mean, REALLY scare me. Her latest one is Santa Claus, and I'm too scared to go to bed because I'm afraid I'll have nightmares. All in all, she's a great gal - and a true Meat Loaf fan. Be proud, Fireball!!!
Thanks Ryan .. but if you like vampires how can you be scared by something as kindly as Santa and/or Meat? :))))
http://www.republic-of-loafdom.com/main/images/santa%20play04.gif
Mike Piercy
24 Dec 2003, 12:48
Looks like Roy Wood's Wizzard
Mike
Well .. if you give Roy Meat's eyes, mouth, nose and put him in a Santa costume .. yes, he would Mike :)
Hey, thats a great picture :D
Thanks Gerry .. you want sound with that?
http://www.republic-of-loafdom.com/main/Christmas2004/Guitar.htm
:)
:lol: nuff said
Right you are Dottie :)) :))
Vicki
Got it on my desktop. Excellent
rockfenris2005
26 Dec 2003, 15:45
Another thing that scares me (concerning weird animations) is where they put Saddam's real head onto an animated body in SOUTH PARK. I just don't like when they do that - it's devilish and frightening.
Anything with Saddam SHOULD be devilish and frightening because he IS.
Meat is not; neither is Bambi :)
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