View Full Version : Forum Change discussion
Mike Piercy
30 Jan 2004, 16:09
We have to resolve the vitriolic PMing and forum posting once and for all.
I'd like Fan Club MEMBERS to let us know what they want on this site, whether they want a Members only area and what they would like to see moved in to it.
I'll raise this issue with my colleagues and we'll see how to sort these issues out.
To respectful non-member forum users we want you on the site but we are going to have to do something about those who abuse the privilege.
We have tried to cojole non-members into voluntarily paying towards the site upkeep funded from members contributions by purchasing back numbers of RVM. Only a few have done so. We have offered current issues of RVM only one/two have bought. A few have taken out membership and we thank you sincerely.
We can no longer support the rest financially without change and we'll be discussing how to protect our fan members who fund this site which may result in you having to make a contribution to post here.
This will allow us to monitor postings more speedily and take appropriate action against those who seek to destroy our club and our reputation by vindictive attacks on Meat Loaf whose presence here is greatly appreciated by true fans.
Please either become a member or purchase some RVM's to help us pay for the upkeep and increase of the site monitoring or we will be forced to introduce alternative income strategies.
We will pursue the purveyors of vile and inflammatory messaging rigourously and we need financial support to do it.
Please help.
Mike
Sapphire Lady
30 Jan 2004, 16:37
I would like to see this forum open to mlukfc members only. It is after all the mlukfc website.
Make it a "perk" of being in the fan club and this would encourage more people to become members. And that way everyone would be making a financial contribution to the running of the site.
Also, I think it would help to reduce "problem posts" as only genuine fans would be willing to pay to join the fan club and genuine fans are less likely to be making unfair criticisms. I'm not saying that you can't be a genuine ML fan if you're not a member of the fan club - that's obviously ridiculous. But I think the majority of fans who want to participate in this forum would be happy to join the fan club to enable them to do so, if they're not already members.
This could be achieved by mlukfc members applying to Mike for a password to be able to post here.
Mike Piercy wrote:
We have to resolve the vitriolic PMing and forum posting once and for all.
That I agree with wholeheartedly. There is no excuse for vitriolic posts either privately or publicly. Currently of course there is no need to receive vitriol in one's PM box repeatedly, as one can block any offender.
I'd like Fan Club MEMBERS to let us know what they want on this site, whether they want a Members only area and what they would like to see moved in to it.
Currently this forum is password protected which gives a degree of control ie you can ban that individual, but they can reregister with another email address. To move the forum to a Members Only area would give more control, in that you could presumably terminate the membership of that individual, and even if they were to be prepared to pay membership fees again, you could I assume identify this and refuse membership (few I think would feel strongly enough to set up false identities, bank accounts etc !!)
However this could prevent some people, who for different reasons could not afford to pay membershiop fees, from being part of the forum anymore. As a fanclub member it would not affect me, but I feel for those who cannot perhaps afford full membership. However much you try to cajole people, some have severe financial constraints. You might be able to provide PM facilities to fanclub members only? But that would not protect Meat if he returns to the forum (if that is your primary concern) because he reads the threads.
You could perhaps make a smaller forum access charge to non-members? Something the younger forum members could afford, and which could be paid for by postal order if required. Again, I doubt those who enjoy baiting Meat would be prepared to keep getting banned and re-registering if they had to pay even a modest amount .. (for even in the case of committed and persistent abusers it would mount up :) This seems to be in line with your comment:
We can no longer support the rest financially without change and we'll be discussing how to protect our fan members who fund this site which may result in you having to make a contribution to post here.
If you decide to implement any system where people who pay membership fees to use the forum, whether fanclub or otherwise, I think you would need to be very clear about what is permitted and what is not. Termination of membership during a year which is paid for would require clear unequivocal standards which the members could readily understand and which were consistently applied with probity. I have been told no culture is defined for the forum. Moving into such a new scenario would require just that imo, backed by clear standards, for eg vile and inflammatory is open to wide interpretation. That is helpful whenever implementing any system of monitoring and banning, and is essential when the system would lead to termination of a financial agreement which in effect annually paid membership is, as opposed to a free forum where you can make fairly arbitrary decisions if you wish.
When you say:
We will pursue the purveyors of vile and inflammatory messaging rigourously and we need financial support to do it.
Is this an agreed fanclub policy? As a member I'd be interested to know a little more about what this entails in terms of actions and costs.
Mike Piercy
30 Jan 2004, 17:47
Pleased to see your with me Caryl.
No, wouldn't expect all to become full MLUKFC Members but we could exercise more control through a forum membership fee only paid by non-members and as you say we would have to define more clearly what standards we expect (like Broadcasting standards ....probably a bad choice there at the moment!).
My intention would be that Full MLUKFC Members get all the benefits for all aspects of the website and related membership activities - we could even extend this with more money coming in and keep fees down - it's members who pay for all this and there has to be some contribution from other users. fees rise every year because we are the people who pay for everything - we just breakeven!
Can't accept that a small fee is beyond the reach of most, a lot of £££££ must be spent on phone bills using this site. We need a contribution.
I do understand those who have financial difficulty but they are using facilities you and I pay for. Not expecting a huge fee my view is an absolute maximum of £5.00 per year.
This will help us significantly and improve control over those who seek to undermine by identifying the irresponsible user more clearly.
The time is now right to act.
Mike
Mike wrote:
Can't accept that a small fee is beyond the reach of most, a lot of £££££ must be spent on phone bills using this site. We need a contribution. I do understand those who have financial difficulty but they are using facilities you and I pay for. Not expecting a huge fee my view is an absolute maximum of £5.00 per year.
And I wouldn't ask you to, just that full membership fees might be beyond the reach of some, and if you're on a fixed fee internet access, or don't pay for your internet use, you can't dip into that to find money for something else :) But a £5 pa fee seems modest enough for any I would have thought.
We have to resolve the vitriolic PMing and forum posting once and for all.
This will be hard to do, since I think sometimes what is posted is niggling and merely unkind, not necessarily vitriolic - but I am all for anything that can be done to prevent Meat's feelings from being hurt. We owe him that and more.
If you go with a members-only forum, maybe there could be a Student Membership so the youngsters could be a full part of everything.
Thanks for your concern and efforts.
-Kathy[/b]
Puritan
30 Jan 2004, 19:09
Please either become a member or purchase some RVM's to help us pay for the upkeep and increase of the site monitoring or we will be forced to introduce alternative income strategies.
Mike
What costs are we talking about then? I am probably being naive but I don't see a lot of costs in £ to running this site. Or are you intending to pay people to be monitors? (you say someone has to pay for the increase of the site monitoring!). I accept there is a lot of time spent by volunteers but I didn't think that was the same as £ notes. This is a genuine question not a "smart ass" remark - though I accept it may be a stupid question!
Why not make all contributors to this forum pay an annual fee of £5? After all not all MLUKFC members have interent access so why should they be funding this site? Such members may in many cases actually be the least able to afford to do so!
Puritan
(A fully paid up member of MLUKFC)
Mike Piercy
30 Jan 2004, 19:26
We all have a surprising amount of paperwork, stationery, and postage costs which we use to give info to non-members as a result of posting on this site. That comes out of Members contributions. this is in the hope people will signh up as full members - call it marketing!
We've tried to use a "something for your money" approach by asking people to buy back numbers of RVM - without significant success - some have kindly agreed to help via that route and they do get something in exchange. It seems however that the majority of non-members won't contribute anything. If the voluntary route doesn't work why should we fund everyone else?
As Caryl says £5.00 is a modest fee and I'd be quite prepared to have a reduced student / young persons rate of say £2.50, i think that's a really good idea and fair too.
Mike
A fiver is indeed a modest fee, in fact you could describe it as a bargain. It might be worth considering giving forum members who pay the fiver the reduction off their membership of the Fan Club should they decide to join after registering and paying here?
How about making it a voluntary minimum of a fiver, that way there's a chance that those in a slightly better fiscal position can sponsor the site by contributing a little more? I've seen this scheme work on a another forum and it certainly eases the load on the running costs.
I think this is a great compromise. I live in the United States, and the conversion of Pounds to Dollars would bring my annual membership to $49.80. I can afford it I believe, and have actually not bothered yet to send it on because I had an issue with some of the mandatory questions asked online when you join. ;) Thought about ordering the back issues to help out instead and there are several I am interested in and will do that soon...
Would be more than happy to contribute a separate amount to the unkeep of the forum, been having a lot of fun here recently answering PM's, posting, and such. ;) :D
Di
shadow1000001
31 Jan 2004, 05:41
I think this is a great compromise. I live in the United States, and the conversion of Pounds to Dollars would bring my annual membership to $49.80.
Would be more than happy to contribute a separate amount to the unkeep of the forum, been having a lot of fun here recently answering PM's, posting, and such. ;) :D
Di
I totally agree. Living in Canada, the conversion for me from pounds to dollars is $64.58. I would have no problem contributing a separate amount for upkeep.
Maria
As Caryl says £5.00 is a modest fee and I'd be quite prepared to have a reduced student / young persons rate of say £2.50, i think that's a really good idea and fair too.
Having seen the amount of beer Sheffield students seem able to afford I'd say students could manage £5 :wink: I think at that level the amount could be the same for all.
And actually I would feel taken aback if my membership fee was hiked by a further £5 to have access to the site. This whole issue seems to me to be about two things .. a contribution to the cost of servicing the website with news etc, and a need to make the forum more secure and give greater control to ban people who abuse it, but mainly Meat . The sum is arbitrary in terms of not being too much for people, but being mainly a deterrent to those who would come here for the express purpose of being rude to Meat and/or his fans.
If the membership fee I currently pay contributes towards the cost of servicing the website with news etc I don't see why it needs to increase because I continue to use the website. Few people do not have any internet access at all these days, even if it's not in their home, and to have two rates of membership fee seems to me to be unnecessarily complicated, and less likely to encourage people to take out full membership.
BadAttitude
31 Jan 2004, 06:07
We all have a surprising amount of paperwork, stationery, and postage costs which we use to give info to non-members as a result of posting on this site. That comes out of Members contributions. this is in the hope people will signh up as full members - call it marketing!
We've tried to use a "something for your money" approach by asking people to buy back numbers of RVM - without significant success - some have kindly agreed to help via that route and they do get something in exchange. It seems however that the majority of non-members won't contribute anything. If the voluntary route doesn't work why should we fund everyone else?
As Caryl says £5.00 is a modest fee and I'd be quite prepared to have a reduced student / young persons rate of say £2.50, i think that's a really good idea and fair too.
Mike
Hi, Mike
Well I am not a younger person but I am a college student and my daughter is a college student and right now till be get our degree's we live on scholarshis, grants and loans and work part-time to attend college and to live on so what I am trying to say is money is tight. That in it's self is why I could not attend a Meat Loaf concert when he was here in the U.S because there was no money to attend a concert.
I would not mind paying a student's fee but any thing over that and I woud just not have the money even thought I love Meat I need to pay my bills and to feed my daughter first and foremost.
Just thought I would let you know my feelings and will understand if you go to an all members site and I have to bow out since I could not afford the $49.50 that it would cost for me to join. for here in the U.S.
But most important of all do what you have to, to make this a better place for Meat Loaf.
Love & Happiness
~Autumn~
We wouldn't want to lose you Autumn, but the suggestion is that to use the website you'd be contributing $9 US max .. less if the dollar strengthens :wink:
BadAttitude
31 Jan 2004, 07:36
We wouldn't want to lose you Autumn, but the suggestion is that to use the website you'd be contributing $9 US max .. less if the dollar strengthens :wink:
CarylB,
Well hopefully you won't lose me and I will be able to stay, and the cost when and if deceided upon with be a small amount that I can afford, however if it is the price of the UK membership which would be about $49.50 for here in the U.S., then I will not be able to stay on the forum as like I said I just do not have that kind of money at this time. We will just have to wait and see.
Thanks, Caryl like I said hopefully I will be able to stay but if not, I will understand.
Take care my friend.
~Autumn~
Mike Piercy
31 Jan 2004, 11:10
To clarify,
Existing/new MLUKFC members would not pay extra to use the forums, that is part of the full membership "perk" if you like.
Non-members using the forum would be asked to make a small contribution towards upkeep so that:
1. members fees are not wholly funding our site/operations
2. we can monitor unacceptable messaging because of registration method
3. a fee therefore tends to weed out much of the malicious posting (see 2)
4. if you are a student (age no barrier) or young person the fee would reflect that.
This has all come about because during the last 3 to 4 months we have had disturbing and vitriolic messages on the forums and via PMs to Meat and others. We cannot sit back and allow the website or its key persons (Meat and the members) to be abused. We are not going to tolerate it.
We have also spent an inordinate amount of time dealing with queries from non-members who have on occasions pretended to be members in order to get meet and greets. This wastes everyone's time since they obviously had no intention of becoming a member and we spend time checking them. We also answer general queries from non-members and do so in the hope that at some time they will join us.
Our alternative ideas allow continued access to the full site via a small contribution. We would have to establish ground rules which if broken would result in removal of access.
We want this exciting forum to continue but there must be greater exercise of responsibility. It's too easy to abuse from the safety of the computer, I doubt many would say the same things face-to-face.
Mike
Cabbie212
31 Jan 2004, 14:11
Mike
I think that is a very fair idea.
DIZZY DRUMMER
31 Jan 2004, 14:59
Mike,
This sounds like a good idea. It seems fair to everyone who is genuine about Meat and the forum.
Hope it come to fruition soon. Lets get rid of the nastiness !!!
original sin
31 Jan 2004, 15:37
OK my £ sterling now :twisted:
To start off with, isn't this actually now Off Topic? :roll:
However a lot of brilliant ideas are coming out here, but I think we need a dedicated thread to be effective and not to get lost.
I would fully support a "pay" forum. Just a small thought what about family or group membership? Although I am a mlukfc member my children are not, yet they are registered here.
I am sitting here thinking about shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
I think back to Party In The Park and all the snide remarks and snipes that were made about Meat at the time (and continued) as I and others posted asking people to think about what they were saying and what Meat had given us over the years, I along with others were called obsessive, sycophants, and sad. It's a crying shame that expectations weren't laid down at that time. We might not be in this postion now.
I would not like see a censored site where people cannot speak their minds however I have always found it irritating when people feel it necessary to add all the negative "Buts". So much talk goes on about "freedom of speach" and "respect", I believe that the balance of freedom of speach should be tempered with how that might make the person feel, in this case Meat, who has been left feeling that whatever he does on the stage is just never good enough for some people in some way, because they excerise their freedom of speach.
Sin - watching and waiting with interest
From my mind to your keyboard Sin ... and how often have we said this.
And when people have posted negative or cutting remarks aimed at Meat or had a pop at him, it's interesting to see how angrily they react when anything critical is said about their actions.
Mike Piercy
31 Jan 2004, 17:10
Any ideas for the members only part of the site?
What would you like to see in there?
(At the risk of being off topic that is)
Here are some ideas:
* members tour photos and reminiscences
* Post - Tour Talk
* Latest News to members first
* Australia/New Zealand Tour info/reports
what else?
Mike
original sin
31 Jan 2004, 17:15
Any ideas for the members only part of the site?
What would you like to see in there?
(At the risk of being off topic that is)
Here are some ideas:
* members tour photos and reminiscences
* Post - Tour Talk
* Latest News to members first
* Australia/New Zealand Tour info/reports
what else?
Mike
:lmao: well definately an Agony Page - I need the work :mrgreen:
BTW the Off Topic remark wasn't a dig - I seriously think there is so much good here it is danger of getting lost, or not seen by all.
Hate to suggest a split but could we get something in site feedback which might be better highlighted to get views from all?
* Post - Tour Talk
* Australia/New Zealand Tour info/reports
Not sure how these would be different to what we currently have in the forum? I'd be in favour of keeping things as easy to find as possible. Much of this occurs now in the forum and members would have access to this.
* Latest News to members first
I'm assuming from this that you see the forum and some other features behind a password link (different for each member?) on the main site. It seems to me that if you're going to post latest news on the site it's as easy to do it on a public as on a password protected page. To hide important news about Meat behind a password seems to me to penalise followers of Meat who would not necessarily see themselves as "fans" or wish to join a fanclub, nor want to join a discussion forum, but are merely searching on the internet for news. Surely the MLUKFC would wish to publicise news of Meat to the widest audience as soon as possible in his interests? And to keep news until it was "stale " before confiding it to the public at large might seem a bit parochial, let alone involve you in a second update on the public page after the club page.
As a group of people who say we want to support Meat in all his ventures, we surely wouldn't want to say to people "We have news of what Meat's doing .. but we won't tell unless you join our club" I'd have said we want any news about forthcoming tours, album or film releases to be positioned prominently for any visitor to see. To use such information as a means of persuading people to join either the forum or the club would seem to me to run counter to our desire to support Meat in all he does.
Having said this, to get an agreement for a pre-sale ticket day for members of both Meat's officially endorsed fanclubs would be an excellent achievement and should be advertised in public, with the links private. That would be a real perk of membership, although not one for forum members who were not club members, as of course would be that oft mentioned and longed for perk .. reserved front seating for fanclub members .. something which other clubs do have .. although it may be a bit late in the day for that one if Meat does hang up his touring trousers.
ChrissybabezNI
31 Jan 2004, 20:39
I think the pay forum is a good idea and if you dont mind me saying, the sooner it is brought into effect, the better.
DIZZY DRUMMER
31 Jan 2004, 22:41
Just a few suggestions.
If there were to be a members only area, what about PM's for Meat just in this section, if he agreed. That way hopefully he would not recieve any PM that caused him distress. (This may not sit well with the members who are dedicated to Meat but for whatever reason are not members)
Please comment
Or have an open forum in a members area, or on the open forum, that members/others could put questions on, for Meat to answer for everyone to see.
Possibly members only contests - if feasible
I know most people are great on this site, but hope you all agree that things need to change, in order to get rid of the unpleasantness
I do agree that the majority of people on the forum are genuine and should have a chance to contribute; but in light of what has been happening lately, a nominal charge could be charged. if they are genuine, they probably would not mind this.
If there were to be a members only area, what about PM's for Meat just in this section, if he agreed. That way hopefully he would not recieve any PM that caused him distress. (This may not sit well with the members who are dedicated to Meat but for whatever reason are not members)
Please comment
I'd favour Mike's original suggestion of a closed forum. Meat was upset by more than just a PM .. it's the board that needs to become less prone to attacks on Meat and members
Well, this is an interesting concept, however, I don't know if would pay to read and post. There are many reasons why. First of all Terry and I were registered members since the beginning of the "new" forums (4/2002) and have not always posted a lot but have enjoyed reading it from the beginning. (If you look at the date I joined, it's because we got a second computer and split our usernames.)
Second, I don't think we have ever caused a problem with our posts, we are mature adults and in all honesty I really don't think we have ever abused our right to free speech.
Third, as for the newsletter, I'm sorry but I am lucky to get information that is covered in the RVM first hand from all my internet friends. By the time the newsletter will get to me, it will be old news.
If this fee is being done to keep out troublemakers, there are other ways to deal with that.
We would be glad to donate and plan to do so, more than happy to help out. But to be told we must pay or go away, sorry but I take offense to that statement. If fees are required for web hosting, I will help, however to be told I can't be a part of this community because of paper and postage costs, I don't understand why. I don't understand how we have cost this site a dime in postage and paper. JMHO
Love to all,
Jules 8)
I think everyone should be allowed to enjoy this site, :D not just the people who can afford it,{and im not trying to patronise anyone at all by saying this}, im happy to put money in for shortage of funds, :D but i dont like to think of the site as pay per view, or pay to post, :( at the end of the day were all here for the same thing Meat ,and our friends :wink: . sorry just my opinion. :D
Carol.
Mike Piercy
01 Feb 2004, 12:22
Voluntary donations could be tried. Good idea.
It will be interesting to see if those non-members who use the site actually
help us out that way, if they don't we would have to opt for something firmer.
We got very little response to sale of RVm's - many thanks to those who have placed orders. Diane's computer is playing up so we'll respond as soon as that is fixed.
Please remember we're not funded by anyone other than paying full-time members. We get no financial help from any other source.
RVM's are not just about news by the way, we have great articles and photos in there and the latest tour edition is really good, there's a second tour edition out in 6 weeks or so as well. If you haven't bought one you don't know until you've read it.
mike
I agree Carol that the forum should not be one which prevents people who can't afford it from being able to come here. But I think the nominal fee which has been suggested would not be beyond anyone's means who has access to the internet, and has been proposed as a way of providing a more effective way of removing those who would abuse Meat and other forum members and prevent their easy return.
The internet provides a wide open playground for those who enjoy upsetting and abusing others, and this kind of safeguard is one I think we will see more and more web-based clubs introducing, as it's the simplest means of putting a lock on your front door rather than leave it wide open to anyone.Sadly few of us these days live in an area where we can safely leave our front and back doors unlocked. And the internet is no different, in fact it's arguably more vulnerable than our homes.
Voluntary donations would be a good idea if this were being done merely to raise money. But from what Mike said when he raised the issue, this is not the prime objective, but rather to be able to have a site which was more securely protected from those who would seek to abuse Meat and others. I don't think it's hard to see that those who do would will be unlikely to volunteer. The strength of a nominal fee system is that it will prvent most people from re-registering if they are declared persona non gratis.
I think everyone should be allowed to enjoy this site, not just the people who can afford it,......., but i dont like to think of the site as pay per view, or pay to post, at the end of the day were all here for the same thing Meat ,and our friends . sorry just my opinion.
Carol.
well said Carol
To make it members only, would drive away a lot of really nice people that post here..imo
i am a member of MLUKFC, i joined before i had a computer!.
..my two children are registered members of the forum,but are not members of MLUKFC...but love coming here on the forum.
They always read my copy of RVM, and enjoy it, ( as do i ) but there is little if ANY benefit to them joining MLUKFC....ok, so we would then have three copies of RVM in the house instead of one !!!
There have been no meet and greets at any of the concerts we have been to...so being a member has not been of benefit in that way....but that is not why i joined MLUKFC.
I joined to keep up to date on news and to meat other Meat Loaf fans/readthere opinions/concert reviews etc....
I come to the forum, because i love meat Loafs music , i like to keep up with news events, read about concerts etc..
I also come here to chat and discuss things with my friends,
if you make it members only...make people pay......you will not only lose the "BAD" element, but drive away valued members of the forum.
sorry, as usual , my opinion is the opposite of the majority.....but it is my opinion
Bren
They always read my copy of RVM, and enjoy it, ( as do i ) but there is little if ANY benefit to them joining MLUKFC....ok, so we would then have three copies of RVM in the house instead of one !!!
Sorry Bren, but I don't see any suggestion that anyone would have to become a fanclub member to use the forum .. just a small charge to be a forum user if they aren't fanclub members.
Mike said half price for children, and agreed with Sin that a "family" rate for non club members would be a good idea. I'd go further and suggest that fanclub members' children could be admitted at no charge at all. This is, as I understand it, about security rather than money
MIke... are you out of your ~~~~ing mind????
What the hell is your problem??? another ~~~~ing pay site??? Don't you even think i'm gonna pay for this.
What is the purpose?? drive people away?? or is it just for you... to let people see that you have power?? Or is it for the money?? do you have some debts? i think so.
No other way you could come up with something so stupid.
I joined this forum before it had a 100 members. I'm here to discuss things, talk about things, not to pay ~~~~ing money for it. If that is your purpose i will start my own non pay Meat Loaf forum.
The Butcher.
Why is this being considered? Is it because there is a financial deficit in MLUKFC funds that needs to be made up or is it to reduce the chance of troublemakers posting on the board?
If it's because of lack of funds, then what kind of deficit are you talking about? Looking at the number of posts per day, this board must be very large in size but web hosting nowadays isn't all that expensive. Could a cheaper (but still reliable place) to host it be found? Or could savings be made in other areas of the fan club? You've given us one alternative of making up the deficit (2 if you include the RVM), why not open another thread asking for different suggestions?
If it's to stop possible troublemakers posting (or PMing Meat Loaf) then I don't actually think it's been that great a problem on this board. The very vast majority of bash-Meat posts have been on the OIFC board where it's possible to post under any name and without giving an e-mail address.
As far as Meat Loaf's recent namings of people on this board who have upset him, I don't know about Winston but Michael and I are already both Fan Club members so even if we had a pay-site scenario, that situation would still have occurred.
I think that currently this Fan Club is in a shaky position anyway. The tour has finished, we don't know yet definitely if they will be playing here again in the near future. When we were talking recently about the fan club at some concerts with people often they asked if it was worth joining as it's his last World tour. Plus we don't even know what's happening with his official site yet. When that opens we may lose a load of members just because of that and I think a pay-only area may increase that for people who can only afford to pay for one site.
On Meat Loaf's 1999 tour, on the Internet the main place to post was the Loafdom mailing list, on this tour it has been the MLUKFC board and I wouldn't like to see that change which could easily happen if people have to pay to post here but it's free elsewhere.
Finally, we have about 900 members on this board, how many fan club members do we have? Even if it's 500 (which I doubt), probably 50 of them aren't online so aren't members of this board so that would leave 450 people who are registered on this board but aren't fan club members.... do we want to risk losing 450 people who will just find somewhere else to post anyway? I like the discussions / news / opinions that are posted on this board and I'd be sorry to see it diminished.
SueW
Sorry Bren, but I don't see any suggestion that anyone would have to become a fanclub member to use the forum .. just a small charge to be a forum user if they aren't fanclub members.
Mike said half price for children, and agreed with Sin that a "family" rate for non club members would be a good idea. I'd go further and suggest that fanclub members' children could be admitted at no charge at all. This is, as I understand it, about security rather than money
Sapphire Lady wrote
I would like to see this forum open to mlukfc members only. It is after all the mlukfc website.
Make it a "perk" of being in the fan club and this would encourage more people to become members. And that way everyone would be making a financial contribution to the running of the site.
Bren
Sorry Bren .. I worded that poorly .. I meant that Mike wasn't suggesting this, and I don't think that restricting forum access to fanclub members only was his intention. I think anyway that fanclub members' children should have access as part of that membership anyway.
The main reason, it seemed to me, for the proposal to introduce a nominal charge was to imcrease security. It might not prevent one abusive post, but could provide the means of preventing the person concerned repeating this, and would help prevent anyine who was banned from re-registering.
Out of all those registered here it seems by no means all post. Perhaps people could be allowed free access to view only? Rather like the CHSIB promo forum R set up. That way those who browse and don't post won't necessarily be "driven away" .. and visitors can see what the forum is like and make a decision as to whether they wish to subscribe to being a full forum member
I agree with Sue, Carol and Jules on this..
I'm a member so makes no odds to me, but don't really see the need to make it a pay site. As Sue said the ones meat has Named are members anyway, also most of the abuse has gone on over at the OIFC board. Plus at least one that I know of has abused others on pm and by posting, was also been banned for It and just made up another name and came back, If that had been enforced more strictly maybe there would be no need for his now. I'm not saying thats the person thats causing the trouble now, just an example.
The flyers gave out on the tour had the website address on. There needs to be somewhere for these people who recieved them to come to see the site before they join anyway. Plus IMO once people have been here a while they would join eventually anyway, to be made to do it seems a bit off. Jon Bon Jovis mum runs his fanclub, and even she has the site as free. The actaully fan club with magazines is something seperate completely
I also wouldnt want to pay twice, once for being member and once for site
Deb
I also wouldnt want to pay twice, once for being member and once for site
I think it's been pointed out almost to the point of exhaustion that this has not been suggested. Fanclub members would get free access. Non-members would be asked to pay a nominal fee. There's nothing there about paying twice.
Plus at least one that I know of has abused others on pm and by posting, was also been banned for It and just made up another name and came back
And introducing a nominal fee is one way of being able to prevent this, as it's less easy to register using another name.
I also wouldnt want to pay twice, once for being member and once for site
I think it's been pointed out almost to the point of exhaustion that this has not been suggested. Fanclub members would get free access. Non-members would be asked to pay a nominal fee. There's nothing there about paying twice.
Thanx for pointing that out Caryl:-D
As i've said many times here, I dont have as much time as others to read these long posts. I was just stating my opinion as was opinions were asked.
Deb
And introducing a nominal fee is one way of being able to prevent this, as it's less easy to register using another name.
But the person i'm thinking of is known now and then. so could of easily been prevented without costs
Deb
Hmm, assuming that all join, 900 members at £5 = £4,500.
We all have a surprising amount of paperwork, stationery, and postage costs which we use to give info to non-members as a result of posting on this site. That comes out of Members contributions. this is in the hope people will signh up as full members - call it marketing!
How? Non fan club members sign up to use the board and give a valid e-mail addy. How can the fan club then spend money on stationery and postage trying to persuade people to join the fan club when all they have is an e-mail address?
I've found that most times when non-members ask a question on the board, it is answered by just other fan club members not "the fan club" itself.
Any ideas for the members only part of the site?
What would you like to see in there?
* Latest News to members first
* Australia/New Zealand Tour info/reports
Sadly this site isn't really known as being first with the news anymore. Back on the 1999 StoryTellers tour Left Bank did let both MLUKFC and OIFC know the dates first but that is no longer the case.
I think on this tour all the dates went on sale first and then people posted about it on this board (in my case, after I'd booked my tickets first!).
As for the Australian dates, some were posted to two of the mailing lists first and then made their way over to this board and the rest of the dates (and date changes) I found first on the Australian ticket sites and posted on here (after I'd posted them on KasimInfo.com first of course!).
MLUKFC did get the news about the singles first (I think) but I believe that any news about Meat Loaf should get out to as many as possible as fast as possible.
I agree that if you could find a way of getting priority seating or booking for fan club members then it would be a real bonus but the OIFC advertise this and only managed it at a few US concerts and a couple of Australian ones, none of the UK ones.
Plus, why would ticketing agencies agree to do this when this site isn't "official" and Meat Loaf is going to open his own website as that is where I would expect to see these benefits?
SueW
Thanx for pointing that out Caryl:-D
As i've said many times here, I dont have as much time as others to read these long posts. I was just stating my opinion as was opinions were asked.
That's OK Deb, you're most welcome. Just thought it would be a shame for anyone to run away with the wrong idea and be concerned about something that was not proposed
Mike Piercy
01 Feb 2004, 15:24
I've never suggested a total pay site.
I have suggested a restricted area for fans only with it's own special topic areas and inter-member posting. I also would like to see greater moderation of abusive and appalling behaviour towards Meat and other people who post here. It started with meet/greet debates and apparently led to some person(s) PMing Meat causing him some upset, frankly I'm not surprised he was fed up, I know I would have been. It seems at times you can be told off for telling a joke (albeit a poor one) but not for insulting behaviour, strikes me as ludicrous.
To Sue W and others I have answered this question about "why" before. We've tried to increase membership and I think we've done some of that thanks to this tour but unlike other sites we have costs because we reply to all who write in whether they join or not, and non-payers are only too keen to pretend to be members to get meet/greets and other news so costs go up. A small contribution would be nice don't you think?
We've tried to encourage voluntary contribution by purchasing RVM's. Few have, yet that way they would have something in return, a rather good Magazine.
Personally I'm more than happy to try a voluntary contribution route - but what if that fails?
Mike
Sadly this site isn't really known as being first with the news anymore. Back on the 1999 StoryTellers tour Left Bank did let both MLUKFC and OIFC know the dates first but that is no longer the case.
I think on this tour all the dates went on sale first and then people posted about it on this board (in my case, after I'd booked my tickets first!).
As for the Australian dates, some were posted to two of the mailing lists first and then made their way over to this board and the rest of the dates (and date changes) I found first on the Australian ticket sites and posted on here (after I'd posted them on KasimInfo.com first of course!).
SueW
Well I for one got all the dates from kasiminfo long before they went on here or anywhere else. So If i'd waited till they was here, I wouldnt of had such good seats this tour.
Deb
Mike Piercy
01 Feb 2004, 15:52
Yes we need to improve our information sourcing but that is not the topic -just in case any moderators are involved in this debate.
For Tim's benefit I assume you are not a member but enjoy what you get from here? Did you buy an RVM voluntarily? Would you make a voluntary donation? To clarify for you especially Tim it's about reasonableness not power so please read the next paragraph.
What we are saying is our members fund Meat Loaf UK Fan Club by annual subscription fees. Those fees rise to meet the overall expenditure we predict will occur in the next 12 months, there's nothing left no profit/surplus. We operate our own phones/internet lines, PC's, software, and printers, we don't get paid, we're fans like everyone here. We buy stationery and use printers, badge makers etc etc from the fees. for example Rainer, Diane and I used our own phone lines/internet to set up meet and greets (and no we don't get that reimbursed).
By the way this site is also called Meat Loaf UK Fan Club so by using it you are using something members paid for.
I was asked to help out in July but circumstances meant I got more involved and to some extent am the one who tends to do the financial projections. It's will be me who says to my colleagues the projections for the next 12 months mean fees have to rise by (?). That rise in fees is paid by me as well as other members.
Our suggestion to seek some form of contribution from non-fan club users
eases some of the burden on those who pay full fees. that's it plain if not simple.
Mike
(oh.... and i'm not mad (I assume)
Thanks for the reply Mike but what sort of financial shortfall are we talking about? Do we have a treasurer for the fan club? Are the books audited?
(I'm not in any way suggesting that anything bad is happening but just that I'm the treasurer of a non-music club that I belong to and have been able to spot some ways of saving money that non-accountants have not been aware of.)
If people are told that this board costs £XXX per year then they will be more likely to understand about making a contribution.
I also would like to see greater moderation of abusive and appalling behaviour towards Meat and other people who post here. It started with meet/greet debates and apparently led to some person(s) PMing Meat causing him some upset, frankly I'm not surprised he was fed up, I know I would have been.
Any abuse on the board or of the PM system should be reported to Rainer and then it can be dealt with by a warning and then a ban. If this has been happening to Meat Loaf then I think it's a shame that he has left the board when the postees should have just been ejected instead.
(I don't wish this thread to turn into a discussion on this next point but what some people find abusive, other people do not. Meat Loaf has been known to misread posts in the past so possibly even this happened again in this instance. Certainly the points in his last post about the tour programmes happened elsewhere and not on this board.)
To Sue W and others I have answered this question about "why" before. We've tried to increase membership and I think we've done some of that thanks to this tour but unlike other sites we have costs because we reply to all who write in whether they join or not, and non-payers are only too keen to pretend to be members to get meet/greets and other news so costs go up.
We have to accept that membership enquires are a cost to the fan club but why not just make a ruling that all people who write in must list their Bat number before the matter will be dealt with? Surely most enquiries nowadays are via e-mail anyway (and therefore do not cost the fan club anything financially).
We've tried to encourage voluntary contribution by purchasing RVM's. Few have, yet that way they would have something in return, a rather good Magazine.
Why not put a copy of an old edition of the RVM on the site? If people are thinking that it is like the OIFC one page newsletter then they are not going to purchase it. Show them how good it is and that it is worth purchasing.
The largest Todd Rundgren website on the internet is open to all but takes voluntary contributions. Although I don't know the sums involved, that seems to work quite well.
SueW
Mike Piercy
01 Feb 2004, 16:14
Did ask for Bat No. as can be seen by checking m/g info. sadly not all did hence problems.
Anyway still not the topic as headlined.
I personally think I can only ask Members to foot the total bill for so long. If we keep pushing up full Membership fees people will not be able to afford it and will cease subscribing.
Fees are set to cover each year's anticipated projection. I could reduce costs of course eg 4 RVM's no badges but feel most members like the set up. No doubt you'll tell me if they don't. All we aim to do each year is breakeven and our fee pricing enables that, I'm trying to find ways of reducing the burden on the few who pay the full fee.
Mike
I hope there is a good solution to this soon, :D because i dont want anyone to leave here i just couldnt handle it saying goodbye to all the good friends we have made on here , :cry: i have never met so many lovely people since joining here, :wink: id buy RVM got some nice pics in its also a good read. :wink: .
Carol.
Mike Piercy
01 Feb 2004, 16:50
Thanks to Sue for the TR idea.
We will definitely look at the voluntary route and I'm sure we'll try it if we can do the same.
Still say if you buy an RVM you actually get something back in return, we will try to get an example displayed now we're all back from the Tour.
By the way that's why this has happened now, no time before and thought voluntary RVM purchase set up during tour would work - it didn't.
Mike
(may be mad but am a paying member)
original sin
01 Feb 2004, 17:16
As I would imagine the fan club is technically a non-profit making organisation to be at break even is acceptable.I
I think that to a degree we both lose and gain by having a site that people can drop in and post.
I have always felt better "protected" by the fact that registration is required, which avoids what we have seen on other sites were people can do a hit and run to cause havoc or make mutiple posts using different names.
Maybe a better way would be to have a members area within the site where competitions, perks, hot off the press news( of course we'd have to get the news!) etc is available and where IF Meat chose to return he could only be accessed through.
This could be "sold" as either straight forward membership or membership plus internet use. I do wonder what those members who don't have or use the internet would make of this discussion and how they would feel.
Maybe this should be "polled" in RVM so all members can have a voice as to what they pay for?
Mike said:
What we are saying is our members fund Meat Loaf UK Fan Club by annual subscription fees. Those fees rise to meet the overall expenditure we predict will occur in the next 12 months, there's nothing left no profit/surplus. We operate our own phones/internet lines, PC's, software, and printers, we don't get paid, we're fans like everyone here. We buy stationery and use printers, badge makers etc etc from the fees. for example Rainer, Diane and I used our own phone lines/internet to set up meet and greets (and no we don't get that reimbursed).
and
I was asked to help out in July but circumstances meant I got more involved and to some extent am the one who tends to do the financial projections. It's will be me who says to my colleagues the projections for the next 12 months mean fees have to rise by (?). That rise in fees is paid by me as well as other members.
I saw no complaint here that the club broke even, just a comment that year by year costs tended to increase. Those that produce and send out the fanclub material give their time and incur personal cost. I'm sure they welcome any ideas for cost saving being out to them constructively. I am less convinced that any one of them deserves to be attacked for perhaps missing the odd opportunity to save costs.
I found nothing offensive in Mike's post.
original sin
01 Feb 2004, 17:54
SueW wrote:-
Thanks for the reply Mike but what sort of financial shortfall are we talking about? Do we have a treasurer for the fan club? Are the books audited?
(I'm not in any way suggesting that anything bad is happening but just that I'm the treasurer of a non-music club that I belong to and have been able to spot some ways of saving money that non-accountants have not been aware of.)
Could these questions be answered please. i do think they are extremely valid for all current members. I for one would most certainly like the answer especially whilst we are discussing potential "add ons" to membership costs.
Mike, just keep your stupid ideas to yourself. You are hurtning a lot of members with those things you say.
If you want to earn quickly money, start an escort service.
The Butcher.
This is getting too personal.
If you wish, attack the ideas NOT the person.
SueW
.
By the way this site is also called Meat Loaf UK Fan Club so by using it you are using something members paid for.
Our suggestion to seek some form of contribution from non-fan club users
eases some of the burden on those who pay full fees. that's it plain if not simple.
Mike
(oh.... and i'm not mad (I assume)
So??
perhaps i'm mad but, i am a member of MLUKFC,therefore i pay the membership fee.........BUT i don't have the slightest problem with non paying, non members of MLUKFC being here on the site
i don't go around with the attitude ,that's not fair, they pay and i don't!!
nor would i .......i think all should be welcome here
By the way this site is also called Meat Loaf UK Fan Club so by using it you are using something members paid for.
reads as though you resent non members being on the site,....wether that was intentional or not ,that;s how it reads to me
Bren
Tim, even if you don't like what is being discussed here, there is absolutely no need for insults like this. Consider this as a warning.
I agree Bren, I dont mind others being here either, I look at it as we get he mags, badges and stuff for our membership they dont. Plus the M+G's of course :D
Deb
Ahh well, I think I could leak some info to cool down the discussion a little bit:
The changes to come are in fact a little different to what you all are thinking.
And there's no need to worry, you may still access the forums in the future as you used to do.
Tim, that is a horrid thing to say to anyone!
Mike, just keep your stupid ideas to yourself. You are hurtning a lot of members with those things you say.
If you want to earn quickly money, start an escort service.
The Butcher.
My appoligy... just got carried away by this post and some egoistic thoughts that fly around here. But again.. .sorry.
The BUtcher.
ChrisBelfast
02 Feb 2004, 02:29
whats the point of all this talk especially when "The star of the show" - meat loaf threatened to have here closed down? Shouldnt we at least wait and see what comes out of that?
original sin
02 Feb 2004, 10:47
whats the point of all this talk especially when "The star of the show" - meat loaf threatened to have here closed down? Shouldnt we at least wait and see what comes out of that?
Excuse me!! Would you please elaborate on this Chris? I recall no such thing
ChrisBelfast
02 Feb 2004, 10:54
The next PM I will be responding to will be on my site , but that will not be up until we start Bat3. This may shut down. I am very upset at a lot of you.
original sin
02 Feb 2004, 10:56
Thanks Chris - I didn't interpret it like that but it is indeed food for thought
MEAT LOAF TRIBUTE
02 Feb 2004, 10:57
Well found Chris! Its amazing what you can find if you look!!!
I didn't interpret it that literally either Sin .. I tend to think that's one of Meat's comments that needs running through the filter machine :)
Not sure that interpreting something is quite the same as finding it though :wink:
MEAT LOAF TRIBUTE
02 Feb 2004, 11:14
Not many ways of interpreting" this may shut down" :wink:
Not many ways of interpreting" this may shut down" :wink:
I disagree, particularly when "this" is by no means clearly specified. As people are so ready to point out, we're all entitled to our opinion.
MEAT LOAF TRIBUTE
02 Feb 2004, 11:57
Yes we are entitled to our own opinion, i have mine, you have yours. But you try to impose yours on everyone else! If you take "this" out of context it could mean anything, agreed! but Meat was talking about "this" site and his concerns about "this" site and the fact he wouldnt post AT "THIS" SITE! in future. He also stated he had his own site. Isuggest your nitpicking
MEAT LOAF TRIBUTE
02 Feb 2004, 12:11
:zzz: :nuts: :nuts:
The Flying Mouse
02 Feb 2004, 12:20
:twisted: How about we settle this with a game of paper, rock, scissors :mrgreen:
I am a paying member of the fan club, and I for one don't care who uses this site, paying members, non-paying, the people who have an opinion about something ( this being something a lot may not agree with ), the only people I have a problem with are the ones who post nasty and abusive stuff. To me Mike is only suggesting things at the moment as a wayto help the running of this site and club, I don't think a slight donation each year will hurt us. I will be even willing to pay a donation as well as my membership fee to help out, if it means getting rid of the nasty one's, ( no, not the people with an opinion, the nasty people). :D
The next PM I will be responding to will be on my site , but that will not be up until we start Bat3. This may shut down. I am very upset at a lot of you.
Dunno about you Chris but I interpreted the whole post by Meat different than some are seeing it :wink:
Also Caryl, how come you can be so sensitive to Meats feelings and put his words through the filter or what ever it was, yet anyone else you pick apart and pull them up on every single little short coming, whats good for one is good for all, we're all human you know.
One of life's great nysteries I guess. However, you exaggerate again imo
Winston
02 Feb 2004, 13:18
:twisted: How about we settle this with a game of paper, rock, scissors :mrgreen:
on your marks, get set....... :P
One of life's great nysteries I guess. However, you exaggerate again imo
I'd call it under exaggerating ( imo )
What the fcuk is going on here?
This is the Site Feedback Forum and this is the thread dealing with future forum changes.
As I have said before, the changes are defined. I'm working on them. End of story.
On the other hand, it doesn't seem to make any sense to install a members area in order to keep the kindergarden outside, if 90% of the kindergarden are already inside.
In this case the best solution would be a complete forum shutdown. That's just 2 mouseclicks work. Very easy.
:angry:
original sin
02 Feb 2004, 14:34
:twisted: How about we settle this with a game of paper, rock, scissors :mrgreen:
In that case I'll go for rock - as there seems to be a lot of stoneing going on :?
original sin
02 Feb 2004, 14:39
R. i take your point in post above but am fed up with the attitude that seems to prevail of "my right, my opinion outweighs yours"
So i shall excerise my right to reply on JUST this one.
Well found Chris! Its amazing what you can find if you look!!!
If this as it appears is intended to imply that I never looked, as I had asked a question of Chris, which he replied to before you added your tuuppence worth, you can think again.
I have read the post several times - Just because I didn't read what you did into makes no odds what so ever.
We'll I can tell the wind's up, as some do seem to change with
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