The true acid test

[original sin]

I would like you to consider voting on this poll and remember that you don’t need to also post to say how you are voting it can be totally anonymous.
I fully understand the logic behind the other poll set up here. However I think the crux of the matter is:-
1/ Do we want a place were we can gather and discuss Meat Loaf and related stuff, in a friendly, supportive and secure atmosphere, where people consider the effect and potential hurt of their views?

Or

2/ Are we happy that anyone can express an “opinion” regardless of the adjectives used, without thought or consideration, for Meat and his other fans?

Now before you vote – let me make one thing clear I am not saying that views and opinions should not be expressed. I am saying think about Meat, what he has given what he stands for and all his efforts and I am saying think about those that most likely will not have had the same experience as you.

For example – someone didn’t like a show’s opening – fine say “ personally I didn’t like the opening it did nothing for me”
Is it really necessary to say, “How can someone who has been in the music business for 26 years not know how to open a show”
So someone didn’t like what he or she heard but is it really necessary to say “the tuneless wailings of that poor man stumbling about on the stage.”
Personally I think he deserves better from us - and unless we agree with such staements we should not stand by.

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Sin wrote:

Now before you vote – let me make one thing clear I am not saying that views and opinions should not be expressed. I am saying think about Meat, what he has given what he stands for and all his efforts and I am saying think about those that most likely will not have had the same experience as you.

For example – someone didn’t like a show’s opening – fine say “ personally I didn’t like the opening it did nothing for me”
Is it really necessary to say, “How can someone who has been in the music business for 26 years not know how to open a show”
So someone didn’t like what he or she heard but is it really necessary to say “the tuneless wailings of that poor man stumbling about on the stage.”
Personally I think he deserves better from us - and unless we agree with such staements we should not stand by.

Lets break this down into sections.

Firstly - views and opinions should be encouraged, BUT, as Sin said - THINK about what and how you express it. Give everyone RESPECT - that includes Meat. What do they say "Do unto others etc ........." :roll:
If you treat people well, they will do the same.

Secondly - Meat deserves the utmost respect and admiration for what he has provided his fans over the years.

We all know he has not been 100%, but credit where credit's due - he gave it his best at the time (in my opinion) I am not going down that road here.

Hope this does not offend anyone - it is a personal view :D

[Winston]

I hear what your saying Sin.......

BUT

Is this really necessary?

it wasn't good enough for you , you prick

IF you read this wise guy You are and Ugly Ugly Human Being if I can even call you that, IT MUST BE TUFF LIVING IN YOUR SKIN!!!!!!

Screw HIM and the horse he rode in on

you don't like me fine. So be it. I don't like you much either.

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Winston

I'm with you on this one - if Meat is seen to get away with it - others will and have followed.

Insults - to or from anyone should not be tolerated

I've said it before - constructive critisism - yes
insults - no

"my opinion"

[original sin]

Ahh but you see the way I look at it is what came first the chicken or the egg - Meat never used to post in this manner - then attacks insults and swipes were apparently seen to be acceptable - anyone paasing comment or not wanting to be associated with such comments has been put down - so what exactly should Meat have done? each and every action he takes is critisised.

It started last spring with slurrs on his voice, it went on with comments about the "just making money tour" it included comments about "crappy set lists"

Then we get reviews that include things like
Right from the first line I flinched at how badly out of tune and out of time he actually was

How can someone who has been in the music business for 26 years not know how to open a show?

Still not having found anything to clap for, I then had to put up with another 10 minute song/rant

What followed was cringeworthingly bad

Following an awful rendition

An illustration of how BAD this show was?

the tuneless wailings of that poor man stumbling about on stage.

Right from the first line I flinched at how badly out of tune and out of time he actually was

so are you really surprised that when such comments are supported by the byline of free speach and encouraged to air their views whatever - that Meat reacts - because I'm sure as heck not surprised one bit.

We had an artist sharing with us his news, thoughts and views, a degree of acceptance has been given to freedom of speach with the no matter what tag and thats the result.

sowing and reaping again
[/quote]

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Sin

Fair comment, but I can only say on what I have seen. I only joined in November 2003, so have not seen any of Meat's early posts.

Suppose I should take time out to read them and see the difference

[Winston]

i don't accept that sin.....his outbursts are uncalled for. and your asking people here to give him the respect he deserves....your quoting members here on what they said about him/his shows (oh and thanks for mentioning the crappy set lists...i still stand by that)...but you didn't bother to show any of his insults/outbursts. why is that sin????

[original sin]

Everything is on the boards for all to see and form an opinion - mine is things happened were condoned by acceptance and Meat's posting changed - cause and effect - does not change the question as to want environment we want here

[Winston]

so you don't like comments like this.....

Right from the first line I flinched at how badly out of tune and out of time he actually was

but ya fall over yourself to praise meat for coming out with this

it wasn't good enough for you , you prick

how can you possibly justify that?????

[Sapphire Lady]

it wasn't good enough for you , you prick

how can you possibly justify that?????

Meat posted an apology to Michael for making this comment and Michael accepted that apology. Surely that makes it water under the bridge now.

I can't see any point in dredging up old quotes. I would have thought the point of this poll is to vote on how we want to go forward. We can't change what's happened in the past.

[Winston]

I quoted Meat more than once in my original post. Water under the bridge....thats between Meat and Michael.....We are not going to get anywhere on this board if Meat's outbursts are ignored. I can see the point in bringing up old quotes because I feel these outbursts are the cause of the fighting amongst each other.
People are actually justifying his insults twoards other members....and that it not right. He is well able to post calmly...he's done it before.

[original sin]

it wasn't good enough for you , you prick

how can you possibly justify that?????

Meat posted an apology to Michael for making this comment and Michael accepted that apology. Surely that makes it water under the bridge now.

I can't see any point in dredging up old quotes. I would have thought the point of this poll is to vote on how we want to go forward. We can't change what's happened in the past.

yes Sapphire lady Meat did apologise, if we are going to quote him this is what he said, so actually I can see exactly where Winston is coming from - IMO it's a crying shame we didn't listen to Meat a long time ago


Michael

My apologies to you , I took it out my angry on you when I shouldn't have,( you were right listen agained to the CD again missing some power from some of the other shows it wasn't bad but not perfect ) SO I AM VERY SORRY.

What made me leave was Winston and her lies and innuendos, the show never changing!!!! do you have any Idea how times the show changed since JUly. But the real Offense Was the use of the word half hearted. Yes Open Forum, but not sit in my my room and just read words and make up what I want, THis was not open forum this was hate mail!!!!
THe title says Meat Loaf UK fan Club , Not the Winston Hate Mail Forum.
op-ion yes, but putdowns, Lies and just plan being angry over what I don't know I will not tolerate. When I wrote about the new web site It wasn't about money!!! come on!! I don't need you money I need your Loyality , If you think the show sucks write, if don't like a song write, just don't tell me I give Half Hearted Performances. I have not been this mad at anything like this for over 20 years.

Just wanted to clarify


Meat

[Deb]

Firstly. I dont think its as cut and dried as the two options.

Secondly. The quotes used to defend Meat are not the only ones.

http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2442 (trier review)

I had already decided to post this before I saw your reply Lynne, and while I agree it was very good of Meat to post an apology, the facts are meat still lost it unjustified. Which a lot are saying he doesnt do, and that he is justified in ranting because people are pushing him to it. Also i'm trying to show that not only is it Meats rants, but peoples responses to them, lots said in that thread that meat was basically justified and that Micheal had provoked him. I do not agree with that for one single minute, never have and never will.

i know bringing up old quotes wont help (or maybe these will, in opening up peoples eyes that missed that thread, to the fact that Meat does rant and isnt always justified) And to me the way forward is to all see all sides of it. Not just Meat is right full stop.

I really am sorry for doing this, but i cant just give up here, I really feel today like saying thats it, bye. This is the last point I feel strongly about. Sharon your reply actually gave me some hope in even those that do go more to the Devote Meat side if you know what I mean ( I do anyway lol)
to actually hear you say you dont agree with meat doing this. And when you go read all the posts dont forget this one i linked to. :wink:

Saying this does not put me in the anything goes catagory either. And if there really is only 2 catagorys, then Im not part of either and I dont want to be. I will quite willingly leave the forum if this is going to be the case here. I can not go on feeling how I have done lately. Even writing this I have redone it god knows how many times.

I see no reason why any of us cant say we didnt enjoy one show as much as the last, or that meats voice wasnt as good the night before as the next. And if it wasnt picked up on as soon as someone said anything slightly neg, those that do have neg opinions would then go on in another thread to voice how good they though something else was. Instead of going over and over this same topic in a million different varieties.

I'm not saying that for any of you to adore meat 100% is wrong, I respect yuor right. (Yes there are a few that do get under my skin but i'm sure everyone feels like that about some, I'm sure even me lol.) All I ask is that those of us who dont worship get given some slack as well.

Beleive me Micheal, weishemm or who ever else has said it are not the only people I have ever heard voice how they feel
. I wont name names, but at shows on the tour lots had different opinions every night, doesnt mean they dont feel the same about Meat as they did before, just they are not deaf or Blind or dumb for that matter. Saying this is not meant to hurt meat in anyway. I am just trying to make at least one person see that not everyone who doesnt see everything as rosey is slagging meat, far from it

[Deb]

Didnt see you post before I wrote that either sin. I really think the whole thread would be much better being read that just Meats apology. Not just becasue Meat ranted for no reason, but becasue of the way a lot of the fans basically said, dont listen to him meat he's bad. THIS is the point i'm trying to make here, amongst others.

Deb

[Deb]

In Meats apology he wrote: If you think the show sucks write

Now isnt this what a lot of yuo are saying we cant do?

[Winston]

Meat says this
If you think the show sucks write

and when people did write that they didn't like the show they got this..

it wasn't good enough for you , you prick

IF you read this wise guy You are and Ugly Ugly Human Being if I can even call you that, IT MUST BE TUFF LIVING IN YOUR SKIN!!!!!!

Screw HIM and the horse he rode in on

you don't like me fine. So be it. I don't like you much either.

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Isn't this thread supposed to be about how we want the forum to be !!!!!!!!!!

[Mike Piercy]

Like everything else it started out that way and is now being used to dredge up old postings.

mike

[Deb]

Like everything else it started out that way and is now being used to dredge up old postings.

mike

Well not in my case its not. I dont get joy out of dredging up Micheals post beleive me, infact it was something i really didnt want to do. But it has some very valid points to a lot of things. is it ok to dredge up meat is wonderful posts though?

[Winston]

well i'd like this forum to be a place where i can post what i really think of meat's work without getting rubbish shoved down my throat for being disrespectul towards him and also without meat getting on here and calling me names.
Posts should be worded in a way that it's not hurtful etc....but i would expect meat to also count to 1000 before he types.

FYI Mike...It was Sin who originally brought up old quotes on her post.

[Mike Piercy]

I thought this topic was about a clear voting principle.

My post and the one that preceded it was about perpetuating old arguments by posting past quotes which have been resolved.

My views on Meat are well known and I'm not prepared to be attacked for them. Dredging up old comments is absolutely futile, does the website no good, and encourages arguments, that's all I was truying to say.

mike

[Deb]

I thought this topic was about a clear voting principle.

My post and the one that preceded it was about perpetuating old arguments by posting past quotes which have been resolved.

My views on Meat are well known and I'm not prepared to be attacked for them. Dredging up old comments is absolutely futile, does the website no good, and encourages arguments, that's all I was truying to say.

mike

Who's attacking you? Me? So if we cant use facts to try to resolve a problem that is very obviously there, how else are we going to solve it? Not many are listening to peoples views in any other way. And In My Opinion what encourages arguments and misunderstandings, is people keep being told they cant have an opinion. Like it or not this is whats happening. I dont just mean the weishemm type stuff or the Micheal stuff. Just in general it seems things are trying to be brushed under the carpet, in the hope they'll go away, but I really believe the feeling here has gone way beyond that being possible. And thats all I keep trying to say

[Winston]

I thought this topic was about a clear voting principle.

My post and the one that preceded it was about perpetuating old arguments by posting past quotes which have been resolved.

My views on Meat are well known and I'm not prepared to be attacked for them. Dredging up old comments is absolutely futile, does the website no good, and encourages arguments, that's all I was truying to say.

mike

Past quotes from Meat have not been resolved....Maybe Michael is willing to forgive and forget..... but I don't know about Weissheim or anyone else whos been at the end of his rants...I haven't forgotten his rants at me...

[Mike Piercy]

...........and all I keep trying to say is that because freedom of speech is so freely used on this forum it has not always been exercised with responsibility.

I recognise I'm from a different era, I don't/can't/won't/shouldn't need to accept the appalling type of comments sometimes made on here. I'm not getting at you Deb but I've got an opinion as well and clearly it's not as liberal as yours, I'm not a moderator so I'll feel free to put my point of view as a fan like the rest do.

Sin's initial posting posed two questions to vote on, at the moment there is an overwhelming view for one of them, that is what the topic is about. it should stay on topic.

[Winston]

...........and all I keep trying to say is that because freedom of speech is so freely used on this forum it has not always been exercised with responsibility.
freedom of speech has not been excercised with responsibility by members and by Meat......we're agreed on that are we Mike?

[Mike Piercy]

I feel an argument coming on..............

What does the vote say Winston?

Mike

[Winston]

Don't patronise me Mike. I know exactly what the vote says. I asked you a question and you replied 'You feel an arguement coming on'
This thread is not going anywhere near an arguement...
Are you saying you WANT people just to vote and say nothing?? Is that what your saying Mike?

[Deb]

...........and all I keep trying to say is that because freedom of speech is so freely used on this forum it has not always been exercised with responsibility.

I recognise I'm from a different era, I don't/can't/won't/shouldn't need to accept the appalling type of comments sometimes made on here. I'm not getting at you Deb but I've got an opinion as well and clearly it's not as liberal as yours, I'm not a moderator so I'll feel free to put my point of view as a fan like the rest do.

Sin's initial posting posed two questions to vote on, at the moment there is an overwhelming view for one of them, that is what the topic is about. it should stay on topic.

Mike

I'm not agreeing that its ok to slag Meat off either, far from It, all i'm trying to say is there is a middle ground. it doesnt have to be one or the other. So in my mind that is staying on topic. or is it really down to tthe fact that we are gonna have to go one way or the other? and by the sounds of it I can see which it will be, Just my 2 cents here, but for the record I dont agree with either.

Also you may not be a mod, but you are privvy to mod dealings, that in itself would surely mean you have to excersice some more restraint than the rest of us.

Deb

[Mike Piercy]

Privy, I'm not!, oh see what you mean..........I have no influence whatsoever on rules, whether you believe that or not it's true, I have extra access to conduct admin. stuff nothing else. Like you I can call for action but it's not my decision honest. In that way I have no more privilege than you do. I used to think I was decisive but now I'm not so sure.

IMO as soon as you say "say what you want" there are those who take a mile rather than a yard. I have favourite concerts and songs as we all do and songs (one actually) I don't like but I hope I express comments on such things in an inoffensive non-threatening way not attacking Meat that's all I'd ask.

Mike

[original sin]

FYI Mike...It was Sin who originally brought up old quotes on her post.

I gave examples to highlight my point and explaination, I did not attribute these directly to anyone - You decided to bring direct quotes into this thread.

One one the reasons I pointed out that votes could be made anonymously was to keep this straight and clear.

[Winston]

you brought up the quotes sin....just becuase they weren't properly quoted...they were still quotes from people's posts.

[original sin]

If you cannot see the reasons behind my giving examples in setting up this poll them I'm sorry - I hope that others can understand the intention and purpose of giving examples yes of posts but without finger pointing etc.

Now further to this and aside to the poll I have created to gain opinions, we are sidetracked into Meat's posts, now my opinion is that Meat's style changed with what he was presented with here, which is why I want to find out exactly what we want to see in these forums.

I for one can see how and why Meat's style changed I believe the cause lies here in the forums.

I do not want to see this poll locked or moved because of debate and sugest that if you are one of those who feel that Meat should be banned or warned for his posts you either set up your own thread or use the one already exsisting.

Part of my intention in setting up this poll and finding out want everyone thought was to help me decide how my future here lies

[R.]

Deja vu. Same procedure as every week. I am so sick of it.
Can you folks not get over something and simply move on?

Why do you think that it always has to be black or white?
There are nuances of grey too. You may want to give this a thought.

[Mike Piercy]

15 love

mike

[Winston]

15 love to who mike????.............you and all the other people who are going around with your eyes closed

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Can we please get back on the original topic Sin set up?

[evil nickname]

I want to find out exactly what we want to see in these forums.

Okay, then here is what I'd like to see.

First off, I did not vote, for I feel that neither option does apply to what I'd like to see: healthy discussion and/or debate on subjects in any way related to Meat Loaf.
Please note the word "healthy". I think that healthy discussion should allow anyone to post their views, and that such views should be respected by everyone, wether you agree with it or not.
Insulting people (regardless who does it, or where the cause may or may not lie), abusive language (in any sort, from anyone) does not fall in the healthy category in my book.

And one last thing:

if you are one of those who feel that Meat should be banned or warned for his posts you either set up your own thread or use the one already exsisting.

Isn't that very relevant to your poll?

Are we happy that anyone can express an “opinion” regardless of the adjectives used, without thought or consideration, for Meat and his other fans?

If we should be thoughtful and considerate to Meat and his other fans, should that not also work the other way around? I think it should.

[edit: hitted submit when I aimed for the preview button]

[original sin]

evil nickname thank you for that -

Will just clarify a few of my thoughts as you have raised valid points

And one last thing:
Original Sin wrote:
if you are one of those who feel that Meat should be banned or warned for his posts you either set up your own thread or use the one already exsisting.

Isn't that very relevant to your poll?

I didn't think so - to me that's a seperate debate if and when - I have felt that everything so far has been a game of consequences, cause and effect. If discussion were on the level you have outlined then I don't think that situation would occur - it never did before. I am trying to look to the future.

Quote:
Are we happy that anyone can express an “opinion” regardless of the adjectives used, without thought or consideration, for Meat and his other fans?
If we should be thoughtful and considerate to Meat and his other fans, should that not also work the other way around? I think it should.

I would have to agree on this and this is why I think we need to get past this cause and effect stage and actually do something constructive to move on.

[Winston]

If we should be thoughtful and considerate to Meat and his other fans, should that not also work the other way around? I think it should.

So your agreeing with this Sin?

[evil nickname]

Quote:
Are we happy that anyone can express an “opinion” regardless of the adjectives used, without thought or consideration, for Meat and his other fans?
If we should be thoughtful and considerate to Meat and his other fans, should that not also work the other way around? I think it should.

I would have to agree on this and this is why I think we need to get past this cause and effect stage and actually do something constructive to move on.

Yes, but to get past the whole cause and effect phase, this issue should be adressed, and I think that has not yet been done.
I can see why you feel that Meat's reaction was provoked / an effect or however you like to call it - but that does not take away that it [Meat's reaction] was against the forum policies. I know very well that those are not up for discussion, but it leaves us with the very akward situation that one member is allowed to insult people, while all others are not.

Finally, I think that discussions like this (when held in a healthy fashion) are very constructive, because they adress some of the issues that are hiding like skeletons in the closet, waiting to storm out.

W.

[R.]

I'd like to see this added in your thoughts:

Post with respect and consideration to others opinions and points of view, and if you see a post that you feel is inflammtory, dis-respectful, insulting and/or out of order, then please refrain from responding publicly as this may only fuel the fires that have raged recently, and allow the moderators a chance to do their job, by all means let one of the relevant people know by PM. Moderators can't be here 24 hours a day, but we check in as often as we can (real world permitting) and recent experiences have proven that one off action by the site staff can stop the flare ups happening.

How about adding a 3rd option to the poll summing up the latest posts?
Carry on, good to see the thread is heading somewhere now ...

[Deb]

Very good idea R.

And I whole heartedly agree that there needs to be another option and not 2 extremes. if people are going to take notice of this poll then it has to cater for all. Cause I for one havent voted in it, because it doesnt cover how i feel. I'd hate to think anyone based a desision on this poll when not everyones going to vote in it.

Deb

[AndyK]

Got to add my two pence in here and agree with R 100%

Let the moderators do their job please (after all it's why we've got these fetching green jackets!), regardless of what you read, and what your own opinion is, take a step back and use some personal judgement, "cause and effect" can be stopped if you exercise some self control and personal restraint.

We'll act and keep the middle ground fair and even and balanced.

AndyK

[heat]

I agree that the first option seems to be a sensible way to move foreward, if we can.

However, I really feel that we have to look at the crux of this problem - such as why this was allowed to get this far in the first place - once we have delt with that then we might be able to proceed.

To me, this seems really really simple. This is a MEAT LOAF FAN CLUB, yet people have been allowed to come on here to post derogatory and hurtful remarks about the man we are all supposedly here to enjoy.

When i first came to these forums, i was astounded to think that Meat actually took the time to come on here himself and post. It seemed obvious that this was a place he enjoyed being. Obviously that's not the case any more. And why's that?? It's because some so - called fans seem to take great delight in posting nasty and hurtful things about him. And if that isn't bad enough, the staff sit back and allow it to happen. And even worse still - some Mods actively participate in it.

Yes, i think Meat has every right to be pissed - i know i bloody well am - especially when told that i hafta keep smiling sweetly whilst swollowing this shit. It's all well and good the Mods saying 'let us do our jobs' - if they would have done them in the first place then we wouldn't be having this discussion now....

[original sin]

Got to add my two pence in here and agree with R 100%
Let the moderators do their job please (after all it's why we've got these fetching green jackets!), regardless of what you read, and what your own opinion is, take a step back and use some personal judgement, "cause and effect" can be stopped if you exercise some self control and personal restraint.
We'll act and keep the middle ground fair and even and balanced.
AndyK

So exactly what is going to change then? What exactly are we going to do then? Are we going to establish what is acceptable here on a Fan Club Forum?
Because unless we do it will be an ever deceasing circle.
I have expressed my concern at the manner of posts both in PM’s and on the board and been told that it is a valid opinion and therefore acceptable.
Yes lets get passed the cause and effect lets move into a future. But what and how?
I’m not sure that changing the voting options will achieve much more – maybe we need to agree on some poll questions and put these to members.
All I know for now is I feel we have lost so much and it has been squandered.
To resolve this something needs to change because unless it does it will remain the same.
I think we need to look at what and who we are first and foremost as individuals and as a group.
Like it or not these forums do bear Meat Loaf’s name I think it is way past time that we need to consider what we have been given and what we want to give

[AndyK]

I'm not saying that "we" (the moderating team) haven't made mistakes in the past, we're only human at the end of the day (except Mousie who's a rodent).

What I'm saying is that if people hadn't responded so vehemently in the first place to the original threads and had raised their concerns with the relelvant Moderators, then maybe just maybe things wouldn't have gone this far. Likewise if the moderators had acted sooner things wouldn't have gone this far.

We can't change the past and having a blame culture does no one any good at all. The suggestion is one to move forward with.

IMO the forum rules and guidelines are pretty clear on all these topics. The suggestion is one for all to consider as a way forward

Think about it, please?

Andy

[Dave]

My views on Meat are well known and I'm not prepared to be attacked for them.

Same here Mike, but it seems like not only should I be prepared to be attacked everytime I post my thoughts about Meat Loaf, but I have come to expect it and the people who attack me are applauded for abusing me.

It is nice that some people get off on being mean and vicious individuals. In the end does it really get you anywhere in life to be mean?

*sigh*

I love you all and wish there could be a good community of Meat Loaf fans on the Internet, but am slowly realizing this is just never going to be a reality due to the fact some are stuck in little cliques.

We all need a great deal of self-examination and should hang our heads in shame (myself included) for driving stakes of divide in the overall fandom. I know I tend to stay away from certain places in the community, more because it breaks my heart the way I am treated there than anything else. I have to wonder what Meat Loaf's honest thoughts about the cruelty fans have heaped on other fans. My heart weaps for the state of the Meat Loaf fandom my friends.

Say a prayer....

[Dave]

Deja vu. Same procedure as every week. I am so sick of it.
Can you folks not get over something and simply move on?

Why do you think that it always has to be black or white?
There are nuances of grey too. You may want to give this a thought.

Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself R.

David

[shadow1000001]

Well said David, thank you.


Maria

[heat]

I have to wonder what Meat Loaf's honest thoughts about the cruelty fans have heaped on other fans.


To be honest, i'm more concered about his thoughts on the cruelty that's been heaped on HIM.

That is basically one of the fundamental problems on these forums. That Meat has been personally attacked and it has been allowed to happen, and to my mind, that's just not on. This is, after all, a MEAT LOAF FAN CLUB forum, and when it is obsereved that a person is allowed to post vicious and hurtfrul remarks about Meat, and get away with it, then something has to be wrong, doesn't it?

[Dave]

To Maria:

This is no problem my friend. I am just reflecting what is in my heavy heart at this time.

To "heat":

I look at this as a gathering of Meat Loaf fans who interact with each other and are occasionally graced with Mr. Aday's presence. I realize this is a fan club for the rock and roll legend and Hollywood actor named Meat Loaf. I agree we all appreciate the many projects Mr. Loaf has put his blood, sweat, and tears into, but (and I only speak for msyelf on this matter) I cannot come to a worship alter for Meat Loaf. Behind the might character of Meat Loaf lies a hard-working man named Michael Aday. A man who has an impecable work ethic - much more so than most all of us. I guess I have learned to look and see that Michael Aday is just a man - worthy of equal treatment by all. Sorry that I cannot bow down and worship, but I can appreciate his craft and see him as the absolute best at what he does. Does this make my admiration of Meat Loaf any less than yours? Sorry, but the answer is no. We all love and appreciate Meat Loaf very much, but just in vastly different ways. I can understand the way you view him, and cannot understand why some refuse to extend others the same courtesy.

[The Flying Mouse]

:twisted: I'm gonna add my 2 cents to this (you never would have guessed would you :wink: )
Yes, moderators are human.As human we also have our own lives.
We simply cannot be here 24 hours a day.
I'm lucky in that my work doesn't take up too much of my.It leaves me a lot of free time to spend here.Other mods aren't so lucky this way.
Now, OK, i'm on line a lot, but if something happens on a forum that I don't control there is sweet FA I can do about it.
Likewise, if myself, Andy or an admin is not on line, and there is a problem in Off Topic, there is nothing another moderator can do.
This means for a tighter moderation we would need one moderator for every forum to be on line at any given time.It just can't be done.Unless the membership wants to put their hands in their pockets and pay the entire staff a full time wage for running these forums.No, I didn't think so.

When flaming has begun in the past it's usually beyond all sence by the time a moderator has had the chance to step in.All the mod can do then is do the best they can to bring the conversation back on topic.
As we've seen in the past, that just DOES NOT WORK.How many times has a mod asked for a thread to get back on track, only to have to cut posts to new threads?Which then more often than not end up as personal slanging matches which need to be locked, prompting more complaints :?

[black dog]

Very good idea R.

And I whole heartedly agree that there needs to be another option and not 2 extremes. if people are going to take notice of this poll then it has to cater for all. Cause I for one havent voted in it, because it doesnt cover how i feel. I'd hate to think anyone based a desision on this poll when not everyones going to vote in it.

Deb

I agree with you Deb. I want a place that I can say what I feel without worrying that someone is going to insult me for having an opinion. I love Meat Loaf's music and his films but that's as far as it goes. I do not want to change my views to suit others. I have made several friends through this site which show the good it can do and also been helped to deal with, through one of these friends, a personal problem. This is what, I feel, the community is all about. People who come together with a common interest.

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

heat wrote:

I agree that the first option seems to be a sensible way to move foreward, if we can.

However, I really feel that we have to look at the crux of this problem - such as why this was allowed to get this far in the first place - once we have delt with that then we might be able to proceed.

To me, this seems really really simple. This is a MEAT LOAF FAN CLUB, yet people have been allowed to come on here to post derogatory and hurtful remarks about the man we are all supposedly here to enjoy.

When i first came to these forums, i was astounded to think that Meat actually took the time to come on here himself and post. It seemed obvious that this was a place he enjoyed being. Obviously that's not the case any more. And why's that?? It's because some so - called fans seem to take great delight in posting nasty and hurtful things about him. And if that isn't bad enough, the staff sit back and allow it to happen. And even worse still - some Mods actively participate in it.

Yes, i think Meat has every right to be pissed - i know i bl**dy well am - especially when told that i hafta keep smiling sweetly whilst swollowing this shit. It's all well and good the Mods saying 'let us do our jobs' - if they would have done them in the first place then we wouldn't be having this discussion now....

I have only been on the forum a few months and loved the fact that Meat posted here - however - more and more snide remarks, nasty comments about Meat and his performances were creeping in. I tried to put my points across as a fan and execute free speech without being personal about it - what do I get - a nasty pm.

I did not pay my membership money for this, yes, the mods did do something about it and I'm grateful, but it should not have come to this. I have never insulted anyone inparticular and never would - but got a horrible pm. It did not just insult me, but Meat too.

I have been on the OIFC tonite and Meat is posting freely and happily - what does that tell you - think about it

There will be a mass exidose soon if things do not change

[heat]

To "heat":

I look at this as a gathering of Meat Loaf fans who interact with each other and are occasionally graced with Mr. Aday's presence. I realize this is a fan club for the rock and roll legend and Hollywood actor named Meat Loaf. I agree we all appreciate the many projects Mr. Loaf has put his blood, sweat, and tears into, but (and I only speak for msyelf on this matter) I cannot come to a worship alter for Meat Loaf. Behind the might character of Meat Loaf lies a hard-working man named Michael Aday. A man who has an impecable work ethic - much more so than most all of us. I guess I have learned to look and see that Michael Aday is just a man - worthy of equal treatment by all. Sorry that I cannot bow down and worship, but I can appreciate his craft and see him as the absolute best at what he does. Does this make my admiration of Meat Loaf any less than yours? Sorry, but the answer is no. We all love and appreciate Meat Loaf very much, but just in vastly different ways. I can understand the way you view him, and cannot understand why some refuse to extend others the same courtesy.


David, Most of this post i do actually agree with. I'm not here to alter - worship him either, i too see him as just a man. A man with remarkable talent and grace, but nonetheless, still a man. A man who is very sensitive and prone. He has alway's been his own harshest critic and i daresay he knows when he might not have given his best performance - i just think that he doesn't need to have it pointed out to him repeatedly.

[Deb]

I have been on the OIFC tonite and Meat is posting freely and happily - what does that tell you - think about it

There will be a mass exidose soon if things do not change

He may be happy there now, but the vast majority of the negtive and hurtful posts originated on the old format of the board. Meat just ranted here as if we'd all made them. He lost sight of where the posts were made. This is another fact that has been lost sight of here. Some are saying if the mods here had done their job sooner this wouldnt of happened, when in actual fact it was the oifc that didnt do their job, and then left the mods here to deal with the fall out. Funny what short memory some people have. :?

[heat]

Some are saying if the mods here had done their job sooner this wouldnt of happened, when in actual fact it was the oifc that didnt do their job, and then left the mods here to deal with the fall out. Funny what short memory some people have. :?

I can assure you Debs, that my memory is just fine, thanks all the same.

If you cast YOUR memory back i think you might find that the mudslinging at Meat actually started here, then went over to the OIFC, then came back here. And while we are on about the OIFC, that board has never had what we know as MODS - Vee has worked hard to get the board where it is now, and has always tried to delete any insulting posts - wether they be to Meat or any other forum users...

And yes, i fully stand by what i said - if the mods had done thier jobs sooner and done them well, then we wouldn't be in this situation now.

[Deb]

If you cast YOUR memory back i think you might find that the mudslinging at Meat actually started here, then went over to the OIFC, then came back here.


What was the mudslinging that started here?

[Deb]

If you cast YOUR memory back i think you might find that the mudslinging at Meat actually started here, then went over to the OIFC, then came back here.


What was the mudslinging that started here?

[heat]

Party In The Park - need i say more?......

[Deb]

Party In The Park - need i say more?......

I wasnt reading much back then, but as far as i'm aware, that was Dean, and to my mind he isnt a fan. And i'm sure we can all agree on the fact that. thats about as much as we can expect from him anyway. Dont think its fair to use that as a fan posting. but as i really dont know the facts on that, i will stand corrected.

What I was refering to was when the drunk girl posted that she walked out of a show on the oifc, and meat posted here as if it had been said here. there was other instences as well. I 'm not saying anything bad about Vee, I'm sure she had worked hard ( i dont know facts as I dont go there much, if at all) R has also worked hard to get this board where it "was" and i'm sure he wants it back that way.

Its a bit unfair to now say that the oifc is such a wonderful place and this isnt, when in a few days / weeks / months the shoe can so easily be on the other foot and Meat prefers it here again, As he has done in the past.

[Diane]

And yes, i fully stand by what i said - if the mods had done thier jobs sooner and done them well, then we wouldn't be in this situation now.

I have every respect for Vee but in all honesty I don't believe she has anywhere near as many posts to deal with as we have on this forum. R. and the moderators work very hard here and give up an enormous amount of their time but it's impossible to ensure one of us is here 24/7. There are no perks, no glory and we often get a lot of stick into the bargain. (See above).

While I'm waiting for my broadband connection maybe some of you would like to contribute to my massive telephone bill and I'll happily spend more time here! Nobody? No didn't think so! :lol:

Diane

[Diane]

Can we all get back on topic now, PLEASE, I want to go to bed!

Diane

[Deb]

And yes, i fully stand by what i said - if the mods had done thier jobs sooner and done them well, then we wouldn't be in this situation now.

I have every respect for Vee but in all honesty I don't believe she has anywhere near as many posts to deal with as we have on this forum. R. and the moderators work very hard here and give up an enormous amount of their time but it's impossible to ensure one of us is here 24/7. There are no perks, no glory and we often get a lot of stick into the bargain. (See above).

While I'm waiting for my broadband connection maybe some of you would like to contribute to my massive telephone bill and I'll happily spend more time here! Nobody? No didn't think so! :lol:

Diane

Agreed Diane :-) that was another point I was going to make as well, that at leats the oifc gets recogintion for their efforts, The UK board doesnt on an offical level anyway.

[Di]

Why do you think that it always has to be black or white?
There are nuances of grey too. You may want to give this a thought.

I just finished reading through this entire thread and there have been some fantastic things said that I agree with, and some that I do not.... But of everything posted the thing that hit me absolutely the most was this small bit by R. It rocked... and pretty much summed up what I felt about the two options offered here to vote on.

There is no way I could vote in this poll as neither of these choices represent what I enjoy in my visits here to this forum. And what I have been having difficulty understanding is why conflict is something that some forum members seem to continually run from and wish to squelch... whatever happened to managing conflict and learning from it? Life is always going to have it as long as we are all walking through it together... and with 1,000 diversified people here there are always going to be disagreements in opinions.

For me the option is not black and white as R. so eloquently brought out, but rather the choice to post with intelligence, consideration, patience, and to take the time to make my words and beliefs count. Taking the extra moments before posting when aggitated can go a long way as well towards making your voice heard in a way that others may be willing to listen to and respect.... and it can be done in spite of a totally opposing view if it is presented in a positive fashion with good intent.

When someone posts a differing belief or opinion, I see it as an opportunity to use it to present my own view or argument. Debate can be an extremely useful tool for saying many things that are of value.... and I actually welcome the challenge to use my mind and wits to present my own points and beliefs, and to do so with grace and style can be very rewarding additionally.

My two cents,

Di

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Just Remember folks!!!!

UNITED - WE STAND

DEVIDED WE FALL


We are all here for the same reason - Meat Loaf

Please can't we enjoy and celebrate that

I joined to have fun - but not seen much of that lately

We need good conversations - I agree with that - insults and personal attacks are not nice to read or receive

Surely we all want the same thing - a good, fun, safe forum

It's a simple plan - if people stuck to the rules it should work

[Deb]

Good point Sharon :D

Not sure I can actaully take another day of all this lol

Deb

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Deb

Me neither - had enough now

Seriously thinking about hanging up my spirs with Meat :cry:

[tbuck]

Nope, I'm not voting here either.

What kind of choices are these?

Good lord, and people wonder why some are leaving this site?

T :cry:

[Sue K]

Nope, I'm not voting here either.

What kind of choices are these?

Good lord, and people wonder why some are leaving this site?

T :cry:

Yes, I'm not voting either in fear that somewhere down the road, a year or two from now, if I feel differently, the point will be hammered home to me how I felt today. 8O

And I'm not going to leave. I enjoy playing on the off-topics and I like to cruise and check out what everyone is up to. :wink:

But of all the topics/ threads I've read on the board, the one I find most disturbing and ludicrous is the discussion of banning Meat from the forum.
I'm still stunned over that one.

Take care.

[Winston]

But of all the topics/ threads I've read on the board, the one I find most disturbing and ludicrous is the discussion of banning Meat from the forum.
I'm still stunned over that one.Take care.
rules are rules...and he should have to follow them like the rest of us.......the rules state that you cannot do the following....

No vulgar language or profanity
No threatening, abusive or harassing comments.

And seeing as some of us have been at the end of his outbursts...then i see no reason why his account cannot be suspended for a week or whatever it is...just like the rest of us......

This forum will not change unless these rules apply to everyone....including Meat.

[original sin]

This is actually starting to make me laugh now.

The whole point Winston is a lot of us feel that it should NEVER have got to the stage where Meat felt he needed to make the posts he did.
Attacks and swipes against him have been given the time of day as free spech opinions and it would appear that neither other fans or he can react.

So as it seem to be missed entirely the whole point of setting up this poll - is because of what we have become, what it looks like we've lost and for why.

Like it or not these boards do more than bear his name it lays claim to being a fan club - so what are we prepared to see and hear.

I have said and stand by it that I am happy for people to say they didn't or don't like this and that. What I don't feel I should have to stand by and see are critiques that question his motives eg "Just making money tour"
posts that question his judgement and the band eg " crappy set lists"
and posts that attcak his art and work eg " stumbling old man" 10 mins of rant on stage" " tuneless wailings"

If the member of these boards find this acceptable then I have serious trouble believing it is indeed a fan club.

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Sin wrote:

The whole point Winston is a lot of us feel that it should NEVER have got to the stage where Meat felt he needed to make the posts he did.
Attacks and swipes against him have been given the time of day as free spech opinions and it would appear that neither other fans or he can react.

So as it seem to be missed entirely the whole point of setting up this poll - is because of what we have become, what it looks like we've lost and for why.

Like it or not these boards do more than bear his name it lays claim to being a fan club - so what are we prepared to see and hear.

I personally am not prepared to see or receive insulting remarks about Meat or other members of the forum. I have said it before, good constructive conversation is great - but insults and whining NO

I have said and stand by it that I am happy for people to say they didn't or don't like this and that. What I don't feel I should have to stand by and see are critiques that question his motives eg "Just making money tour"
posts that question his judgement and the band eg " crappy set lists"
and posts that attcak his art and work eg " stumbling old man" 10 mins of rant on stage" " tuneless wailings"

I think that after all of these years - Meat and the band etc are able to organise concerts - they may not be to everyone's tastes - but he knows what he wants and how to do it - surely !!!!!!!


If the member of these boards find this acceptable then I have serious trouble believing it is indeed a fan club.

I agree totally with this - A FAN CLUB - AT THE MOMENT - A FARCE

[Winston]

so your justifying his actions then?????? if thats the case..then we will get no where..... can't you not admit that he was wrong in insulting people the way he did....you and others have no problem whatsoever in telling me or others that i shouldn't write this i shouldn't write that etc cause it will hurt meat.....but everyone sings praises when meat goes off on one.....

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Winston wrote:

so your justifying his actions then?????? if thats the case..then we will get no where..... can't you not admit that he was wrong in insulting people the way he did....you and others have no problem whatsoever in telling me or others that i shouldn't write this i shouldn't write that etc cause it will hurt meat.....but everyone sings praises when meat goes off on one.....

I'm not going over old ground - I've answered this once

[Winston]

My post was directed at Sin...and furthermore you have not directly answered the question....all people are saying they can understand why meat goes off on one....thats not answering my question.....but then again maybe it is.....your saying yes you can understand why he rants at people and you accecpt his outbursts....and i for one cannot understand that at all....you can only defend someone so much......his behaviour IMO is not accecptable

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

winston said

My post was directed at Sin...and furthermore you have not directly answered the question

read my posts earlier - I don't agree with insults - period

[Diane]

OK this is going nowhere and again has moved way off-topic. I'm locking this thread while everyone cools down. :angry: