Question to Steinman fans [Archive]

AndrewG

02 Jan 2006, 17:49

I came across Jim Steinman's entry in wikipedia.
It says this under "Bad for Good":

In 1981 a sequel album to Bat Out of Hell was ready, but Meat Loaf's voice, after years of continuing tour, was not. This time Jim Steinman co-produced all of the tracks. Todd Rundgren, the producer from "Bat Out of Hell" co-produced every track except "Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through", which was co-produced by Jimmy Iovine, who later headed Interscope Records. Steinman had to sing his songs himself, with the help of backup vocalist Rory Dodd; the album was released as Bad for Good. The album produced one hit, Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through, which rose to position 32 on the Billboard charts in a 6 week run in July 1981. The tracks "Lost Boys and Golden Girls," "Surf's Up" and "Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through" were sung by Rory Dodd, despite the fact that Dodd is not credited for this work in the album's credits. Jim Steinman appeared in a music video for the song, lip-synching to Dodd's vocals. The song "Left in the Dark" was later recorded by Barbra Streisand on her album "Emotions," with Jim Steinman as the sole producer of that track.

LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Steinman)

I never knew this. I really thought that was Jim's voice on all tracks. I can't hear much of difference in voice between Surf's up and Left in the Dark especially. Is this true or just made up nonsense.????? :??: :??: :??:

evil nickname

02 Jan 2006, 19:15

True. If you look at the credits for ther album, its says "Featured vocal: Rory Dodd" for both Lost Boys and Golden Girls and Surfs Up. Rock And Roll Dreams would still be sung by Jim, though.

ChloeLee88

02 Jan 2006, 20:19

OMG i really never noticed thet sound the same.... i gotta go listen to these now!!
Chloe

Pudding

03 Jan 2006, 00:15

The album produced one hit, Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through, which rose to position 32 on the Billboard charts in a 6 week run in July 1981.

I think it's worth noting that the album itself reached #63 in the US and #7 in the UK, which is pretty good considering.

The tracks "Lost Boys and Golden Girls," "Surf's Up" and "Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through" were sung by Rory Dodd, despite the fact that Dodd is not credited for this work in the album's credits.

Although Steinman is credited with Lead vocals, Rory Dodd is credited as 'Featured vocals'. If you have the free EP that came with the album it says on the back for Lost Boys - Featured Vocals :Rory Dodd, exactly the same for Surf's Up. It doesn't for Rock'n'Roll Dreams, which it should, but if that's Steinmans only single release, then it's not really a solo effort if you're crediting someone else with the vocals.

I never knew this. I really thought that was Jim's voice on all tracks. I can't hear much of difference in voice between Surf's up and Left in the Dark especially. Is this true or just made up nonsense.

It's clearly noticeable on Surf's Up especially when the 'And my body is burning like a naked wire' kicks in. Steinman could never reach those notes, the pitch is too high for him.

I personally think Bad For Good is an excellent album but Steinman's vocals on what he sings, suck.

Pud :twisted:

mikeloaf

03 Jan 2006, 00:50

I know I heard/read at some time ( not sure when/ where ) that Meat Loaf's voice was fine at this time. He didn't like the song's and so thats why he didn't record them. He also talks on VH-1 about trading 'Rock and roll dreams' for 'Dead Ringer'.

Pudding

03 Jan 2006, 01:20

Meats voice was shot in '81 even he's said it was. If Rory Dodd is singing on 3 of the songs on Bad For Good, then there'd have been no good for Meat Loaf at the time.

There's all sorts of myths and urban legends surrounding Bad For Good (Renegade Angel) and Dead Ringer. But from what I can gather, Meat and Jim were under contract to put out a record, Meat wrecked his voice due to the long touring schedule he'd done and his style of singing, Jim didn't like what he heard coming out of Meat, so he recorded the songs himself (as he'd already done most of the production) hence Bad For Good. And chucked Meat Loaf a load of songs (due to a contractual agreement) to record on his own, hence Dead Ringer.

If Meats voice was in form as it was for Bat1 then Bad For Good (or Renegade Angel as it would have been known) would have been sung by Meat and Steinman would have fully produced Dead Ringer.

Pud :twisted:

AndrewG

03 Jan 2006, 01:32

This Rory singing on these tracks is new to me anyway. I've had the album (including the lp with ep) for about 10 years but never noticed all this before... unbelievable.

mikeloaf

03 Jan 2006, 01:51

I doubt we'll ever know the 'truth' about this!

Pudding

03 Jan 2006, 01:58

Absolutely we'll never know the full ins and outs surrounding B4G or DR, but the only things I know for a fact is, Meats voice was shot (both Jim AND Meat have said so) and that they were under pressure and under contract to release another album.

There was also a falling out between Meat Loaf and his then manager David Sonenberg, whom he parted company with but Jim kept. And I think his new manager Alan Dellentash, just wanted to make money off of Meat Loaf.

Pud :twisted:

Bart

03 Jan 2006, 17:33

That is the jim steinman fan base opinion that " jim did not allow Meat to sing his songs cause his voice was shot".

Meat's story is that he did not like the concept from Bad for good and that BFG and DIMP were bloody copies. He did not want to record a copy of Bat out of hell.
IThat could be the main reason. Dead Ringer he sings quite well. So he could record BFG but he did not want it.

Pudding

03 Jan 2006, 22:12

Yes Bart :zzz:

Pud :twisted:

Renegade Angel

03 Jan 2006, 23:02

I think meats voice is superb on deadringer, its an underatted album and to hear Meat play any of these live would be amazing, he always performed Im Gonna Love Her For both of us very well during the 80s.
I think meat said that his voice was pieced together bit by bit for deadringer. What I have never understood about the voice problem during this period is, why did he tour if he couldn't sing?

Pudding

03 Jan 2006, 23:23

Reluctant as he might be, even Bart would agree that Meat had a hell of a lot of legal troubles around this time and people were suing him up to the ying yang, he needed to pay the bills and feed his family. He's only human after all.

Pud :twisted:

mikeloaf

04 Jan 2006, 00:19

Also goes some way to understanding why he ( from my understanding ) believes he sings better now than ever. No pressure. Or at least not as much. I suspect he's 100% the boss these days.

Bart

04 Jan 2006, 12:46

Well Pud, he failed in taht cause the dead ringer tour was a financial failure. His voice was not good but he just wants to tour and promote the album. Thats just the way he is. In november 2003 he was as sick as a dog and still he wants to perform and that has nothing to do with the money.

he is just a focking train. Its what he says but indeed he is. Money is not the reason.

The Flying Mouse

04 Jan 2006, 20:19

I think meats voice is superb on deadringer, its an underatted album

:twisted: Here here :cool:
A VERY underated album IMHO.

Pudding

05 Jan 2006, 01:39

Well Pud, he failed in taht cause the dead ringer tour was a financial failure.

I never said it wasn't. But he'd have still been under contract to do it anyway.

Pud :twisted:

rockfenris2005

05 Jan 2006, 13:49

Ok, here's the deal: before you guys tangle this around for the umpteen time. Pudding, you should have spared me the hassle... but...

We all know that one of the songs from Dead Ringer is the first (to our knowledge) Steinman song that Meat Loaf performed. It was from the musical of the same name, More Than You Deserve, which flopped ignominiously at the Public Theatre. Meat Loaf recorded it as an EP, but with another producer. Steinman wasn't allowed in the studio. The EP (mysteriously) went missing...

For some reason, the song wasn't included on Bat Out of Hell: but it was auditioned (primarily) when Meat and Jim were searching for labels. Another song they did, which ended up on Bad for Good, was Left in the Dark. More Than You Deserve was played (many times) on the original Bat tour. I'd hardly call this song a "rip-off" of something from Bat Out of Hell, because it was meant to be apart of Bat - then Renegade Angel - probably Bad for Good - and eventually Dead Ringer. It's never been done since :(

The next song, for the second album, was Everything is Permitted. Meat and Jim even mention it in this interview:

http://www.jimsteinman.com/juliachild.htm

QUOTE:

Q. What can you tell us about the next Meat Loaf album?

Meat Loaf: Well, we’ve got one song called Everything Is Permitted which is real good. It’s along the same theme as the first album. Plus there’s a tune called More Than You Deserve which we’ve been doing for a long time on stage. In a way, it’s become a sort of theme song, but we’ve never had the right arrangements for it. Jim has worked on it a lot and I now think we’ve gotten it down.

These two songs, and probably Left in the Dark (included), were meant to be on the album Renegade Angel. Steinman and Meat, in an interview for Bat II, even describe what the cover would have been like (and I think it's also mentioned in The Phenomenology of Excess?). Picture this: a gym, with heaps of women making out, and an angel with exhaust pipes on his back flying up into the heavens. Very intriguing... LOL

The fall-out with R.A. is explained (the best one I could find on such short-notice) at:

http://www.jimsteinman.com/00classicr3.htm

QUOTE:

But success came with turmoil. Even Meat Loaf's mighty voice was broken by the touring schedule required and the attendant pressures. As a result, he was unable to record Steinman's "Renegade Angel," which Steinman eventually cut himself as "Bad For Good" in 1981. This was the period in his life that Meat Loaf now describes as his "darkest hour". Famously, Steinman had spliced together Meat's vocals from separately recorded phrases and one-liners to complete the wonderful "Dead Ringer" album after the singer had claimed to be experiencing a mental block.

"Yeah, I had a mental block, but not the kind of block you're talking about," Meat told Classic Rock last year. "My block was because "Bad For Good" was trying to be a copy of "Bat Out Of Hell". "Dance In My Pants" was trying to be a copy of "Paradise By The Dashboard Light" and "Lost Boys And Golden Girls" was trying to be a copy of "Heaven Can Wait."

Afterwards, they split, apparently for good. "I was upset at everyone trying to rush the follow-up out," said Meat, recalling their disagreement. "Jimmy and I had spent four years of our lives putting together "Bat Out Of Hell".. Yeah, Jimmy wrote, because he was a better writer than I was. But we worked together on those songs. I said, Jim this is not how we did "Bat Out Of Hell." We need to sit down and work together. And he just, like, shrugs. And I just lost it. I said, that's it. I went back to the house we were staying in, packed the car, took my wife and split."

The differing characters and expectations had ultimately driven a wedge between the two. Steinman draws a line between Meat the man and Meat the character who sung his songs. But the famous court case that ensued over the album's profits left the singer floundering. In 1983, he was sued to the tune of $85 million by Steinman and former manager David Sonenberg and was forced to file for bankruptcy.

While Steinman's vision continued to provide hits throughout the last 20 years for artists as diverse as Bonnie Tyler, Barbra Streisand, Air Supply, the Sisters of Mercy and even Boyzone, Meat Loaf drifted without him through a succession of half-baked efforts like "Midnight At The Lost And Found" ('83), "Bad Attitude" ('84) and "Blind Before I Stop" ('86).

That's probably everything Pudding and Bart explained, except they were both right. Meat didn't originally (according to his bio) like the way Steinman was echoing Bat 1. He thought he was pressued by the record-company, and felt the whole thing was wrong (however, many of the songs he has covered over time, mostly on Bad Attitude and Back Into Hell).

After that, he lost his voice. He couldn't sing anything, even if they wrote an album the "proper way". So that's that...

Hopefully that's all cleared up

Bart

05 Jan 2006, 14:44

well..ehm.... :wtf: , that was just what i was trying to say all the time :mrgreen:

He did not record it cause he did not like the concept.

Pudding

05 Jan 2006, 21:24

You got to love the puns Meat Loaf drifted without him through a succession of half-baked efforts Always make sure your Meat Loaf is fully baked :lmao:

Pud :twisted:

Bart

06 Jan 2006, 10:50

I don't think Meat Loaf fans don't love that line. It is the line I have read a lot back in late eighties and i hate it and it is not true.

Pudding

06 Jan 2006, 11:21

It's not meant to be true, it's meant to be a joke. However, most people would agree that BBIS and MATLAF weren't Meats finer moments.

Pud :twisted:

Bart

06 Jan 2006, 12:02

BBIS was for me the second after Bat. I thought it was great. And abouts Meats finer moments:
I think it was his finer moments cause life was tough for him back tehn. i am not going into details we all know off but he did a great job in view of all the misery. The tours in 84/85 and 86/87 and 88 and 89 were awesome. The record company really sucked. Arista was a very bad company. And CBS did not care about The Loaf at all. They just wanted to spent little money and did not care about The Loaf's career. They had a short term view and just wanted to earn a lot of money right after Bat.

Oriel

06 Jan 2006, 13:55

To a Steinman fan, there's clearly a difference when you listen more closely.

Pudding

06 Jan 2006, 22:19

BBIS was for me the second after Bat. I thought it was great.

I did say most people NOT all, I think we're past the miracle season now and have to wait closer to Easter for one to happen :pray: and for you to agree with anything I say. But I'm fairly convinced most peoples list in order of preference and quality would see MATALF & BBIS near or at the bottom.

As for finer moments, I agree that Meat did extremely well through adversity at a very difficult time, but I'm just talking about the music baby, just the music and not his personal life :yay:

Pud :twisted:

Space Monkey

07 Jan 2006, 18:33

To a Steinman fan, there's clearly a difference when you listen more closely.
Difference in what? Please elaborate

Pudding

07 Jan 2006, 22:55

Most Steinfans are loyalists to the song and not necessarily the artist, where quite a lot of Loafers are loyalists to the artist and not necessarily the song. Not wanting to start anything but there are a few Loafers who like anything Meat Loaf sings regardless of quality of song or quality of singing.

Personally speaking I listen to the song, if it's crap then I don't care who sings it or who's wrote it and that's why BBIS and MATLAF are my bottom two Meat Loaf albums.

Pud :twisted:

PanicLord

08 Jan 2006, 14:39

What I don't get on Bad For Good is that on some songs Jim's singing is appalling eg Out Of The Frying Pan, and Left In The Dark, but I'm pretty sure it's him on Dance In My Pants, and on that he sounds pretty good. Like a professional singer in fact. If he CAN sing like that - why doesn't he normally?

On Pud's last post, I'm starting to like some of MATLAF - the title song, WATD, PL, KD. Perfectly reasonable rock songs. Still not as good as a Steinsong obviously, or even a Diane Warren, but good driving music. No voice issues either. Nothing will ever stop me loathing Razor's Edge however.

Pudding

08 Jan 2006, 22:10

Bad For Good is a great album but Jims singing is awful. Rory Dodd in my opinion should have sung all the songs.

MATLAF isn't a bad album, it's just average. The title song is the best on there, Keep Driving, Fallen Angel and Promised Land aren't that bad either. Razor's Edge is probably one of the worse songs Meat Loaf has ever done, closely followed by If You Really Want To.

Pud :twisted:

Steve6

08 Jan 2006, 22:44

The Flying Mouse

08 Jan 2006, 23:32

The only thing that ruined "BAD FOR GOOD" was the sound quality.
It seemed like a rushed production.

The rumour I heard about Jim and Meat was, when they were preforming live on stage one night Meat fired something across stage and it hit Jim. That marked the downfall.

Also during Meat's early days he had a habit of spitting at the crowd.
Jim was'nt happy with that also, that's why he did'nt preform much live after BOOH.

Meat had gone mad, he did'nt have a voice, and that's why the he fell out with Jim Steinman and his manager.

:twisted: I actually think the album is pretty good.

Never heard that one about him firing something.Interesting.

I have NEVER heard anybody talk about Meat spitting at an audience.
If this was true, i'd be very suprised at him.
Anyone else ever heard of this?

AndrewG

09 Jan 2006, 00:56

The only thing that ruined "BAD FOR GOOD" was the sound quality.
It seemed like a rushed production.

I actually think the quality is WAyyyy ahead of its time! With some awesome arrangements and a very good recording all round. Remember it's 1981 we're talking about. I certainly think the sound quality of the drums, orchestra, guitar and piano is much more balanced, better mixed and more clear than "Dead Ringer" and even "Bat out of Hell" for that matter. Also the cover is quite something I think.
I also think you can easily "hear"/understand they had a lot more money to spend on this album than they did on "Bat out of Hell". I think if they had managed to record "Bad for Good" with Meat's voice over the songs it would have been quite successful. Probably a mix of this album and the better songs from Dead Ringer is what fans would have died for at that time.

The only negative thing I can say about "Bad for Good" is on the order of the songs, I don't think "Lost Boys" should have followed "Bad for Good" and should have appeared later on on the album (much like Bat 2). I would have preferred this order (using all 10 songs, which is maybe not fair as it was an LP at the time I suppose):

1 Bad for Good
2 Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through
3 Surf's Up
4 American Guitar
5 Stark Raving Love
6 Out of the Frying Pan
7 Dance in My Pants
8 Lost Boys and Golden Girls
9 The Storm (probably a different arrangement Including some softer bits with themes from other songs on the album) Ideally a bit like Prayd Lewd but of course It's All coming back wasn't written at this time.)
10 Left in the Dark (without that darn spoken intro but with an angels singing like intro, very much like the excellent Swedish cover "Lämnad I Mörkret" by Cecilia Vennersten)

Pudding

09 Jan 2006, 00:56

I've never heard Meat throwing anythin at Jim on stage or Meat spitting into the audience, sounds a liitle far fetched to me. Perhaps there's confusion with Ted Nugent who Meat did a few songs with and Ted was notorious for firing things into the audience.

If steve6 could find the article where he got this info from, it certainly would make interesting reading.

Pud :twisted:

Steve6

10 Jan 2006, 02:14

Are you been serious?

The sound quality on BOOH and DR is a thousand times better than BFG.
They might have had more money to spend but it does'nt show on the album.

Sound quality: 2/10 (As I said it was a rushed production)
Vocals 7/10: (Would have liked to hear Meat do it but Jim did a good job)
Front cover: 10/10 (I would agree a brilliant front cover)
Backing vocals: 3/10 (Did'nt improve the songs in anyway)
Guitar/Piano etc 8/10 (Thought they all sounded good but could have been better had it been recorded right)

Overall rating: 6/10

mikeloaf

10 Jan 2006, 02:18

Why does this matter so much? It was over 25 years ago! I'm sure ML and JS have moved on along way.

Pudding

10 Jan 2006, 04:42

Sound quality: 2/10 (As I said it was a rushed production)

Rushed production? how do you figure that one out? :tard: Steinman had 4 years to decide how the songs should sound and he's notorious for taking too long in studio because he does take after take after take.

Pud :twisted:

PanicLord

10 Jan 2006, 20:39

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most CDs of BOOH and DR and remasters aren't they? I.e. cleaned up? Whereas BFG may not be due to less demand for it? Just a guess, may be completely wrong!

Pudding

10 Jan 2006, 22:55

If you look at the tracks on Bad For Good, the album has been pretty muched raped of all its songs, so remastering it would be a waste of money. And there's no guarantee's that the songs left won't end up on Bat3 :roll: in fact it's a pretty safe bet one of them will be.:pray:

1. Bad For Good
2. Lost Boys And Golden Girls - Bat2
3. Love And Death And An American Guitar - 'Wasted Youth' Bat2
4. Stark Raving Love
5. Out Of The Frying Pan (And Into The Fire) - Bat2
6. Surf's Up - Bad Attitude
7. Dance In My Pants
8. Left In The Dark - Barbara Stresand and WTTN
9. Storm, The - Heavily used in Tanz Der Vampire
10. Rock And Roll Dreams Come Through - Bat2

Pud :twisted:

Jaymze

13 Jan 2006, 18:04

Also has anyone noticed that Bad For Good sounds a healiver lot like a Springsteen song? I don't know if Steinman intentionally wrote it that way but they deffos sound like Springsteen lyrics.

AndrewG

13 Jan 2006, 18:35

I think Steinman has always been very inspired by Springsteen. The sax start to "revved up" sounds springsteeny according to me for example. I do think Steinman has taken that inspiration into a more theatrical persective.

Space Monkey

15 Jan 2006, 22:51

Fire Ball

16 Jan 2006, 01:52

You are all partly right, I walked out because of want was going on ! With Jim, Roy, and Todd.... After I walked out I had a breakdown, which was Jan of 79, in Nov of 78 I was singing just fine, Then CBS and Sonenberg Said I would never come back and told Jim he didn't need me , so in Dec of 79 Jim came to me and said he would write another record and he wanted" bad for good".
Rory did a lot of singing including R&R DREAMS ,lost boys, amnong other things.
It was Stienman who sued me, It was todd who was the real genius behind Bat 1, yes ,Jim wrote, I sang but is was Todd who made it a record. If you only listen to the Stienman camp everybody but Jim is wrong !!! My 2 cents
Meat

ChloeLee88

16 Jan 2006, 01:54

wow stienman sued you!!!!
Anyway thanks for clearing this thread up!
Chloe

Caelan

16 Jan 2006, 01:55

AndrewG

16 Jan 2006, 01:57

Thanks Meat.

Caelan

16 Jan 2006, 01:58

It really is confusing around here sometimes with a lot of people knowing pieces..or thinking they know what happend..

ChrisBelfast

16 Jan 2006, 01:58

,I sang but is was Todd who made it a record.

Would you like to do further work with him .... good to see him in the Bat 3 recording photos :-)

L96

16 Jan 2006, 01:59

Ancient history though, right?

I got sued by a boyfriend once. That kills a relationship, I tell you...

Steve6

16 Jan 2006, 02:02

You sang BAD FOR GOOD live Meat did'nt you? I heard it somewhere.

AndrewG

16 Jan 2006, 02:03

Yeah Steve6 he sang it during the 1988 uk tour as far as I know. Sounded pretty good to me.

Caelan

16 Jan 2006, 02:05

Yeah Steve6 he sang it during the 1988 uk tour as far as I know. Sounded pretty good to me.

I wouldn't mind to hear Meat sing that song again on stage..

Fire Ball

16 Jan 2006, 02:09

All just history !!

Steve6

16 Jan 2006, 02:12

But Meat your history is something to be proud of.

Caelan

16 Jan 2006, 02:12

All just history !!

I know...And I agree with Steve

Trudy67

16 Jan 2006, 02:13

Thanks for clearing that up. Lots of different sites have all sort of stories go around. For one who doesnt have a lot of time to surf the net, the truth from the source is fantastic.

Steve6

16 Jan 2006, 02:24

Meat comes in and I screw it up...... AGAIN.

Caelan

16 Jan 2006, 02:25

Be more carefull with what you write down.. you know he comes here sometimes.

AndrewG

16 Jan 2006, 02:28

Caelan, I think Steve meant he thinks he screwed up himself by asking about BFG.

I think R can close this thread as the questions have been answered.

Steve6

16 Jan 2006, 02:28

Pudding

16 Jan 2006, 02:31

I have absolutely no idea where you're coming from steve. What you wrote was true, but Meat has said it's history.

Pud :twisted:

Caelan

16 Jan 2006, 02:33

No I posted a stupid rumour that I heard and he saw it... now I am shamed for life. :oops: and I did'nt make it up I heard it. I will never be able to go to a Meat concert again. I always let myself down by being stupid.

ohh come on..just by posting a rumour...don't bother bout it..you go on to a Meat concert..:-P

Steve6

16 Jan 2006, 02:33

I got a Private message.... that I don't want to talk about. It has upset me deeply.

I am very, very upset. :(

Caelan

16 Jan 2006, 02:39

I got a Private message.... that I don't want to talk about. It has upset me deeply.

I am very, very upset. :(

won't ask about it..:shock:

Sue K

16 Jan 2006, 02:39

I got a Private message.... that I don't want to talk about. It has upset me deeply.

I am very, very upset. :(

.. well.. if you've gone as far as to mention it.. please share.. we'll do our best to soothe you... :-) ...

Sue K

16 Jan 2006, 02:41

won't ask about it..:shock:

.. but i'm sure Steve wants to talk about it... or he wouldn't have mentioned it .. do you think?..i think he's seeking our comfort.. please share Steve.. :-) ...

Steve6

16 Jan 2006, 02:42

I thought everything was going well until now. I am so ashamed of myself.

Pudding

16 Jan 2006, 02:44

.. but i'm sure Steve wants to talk about it... or he wouldn't have mentioned it .. do you think?..i think he's seeking our comfort.. please share Steve.. :-) ...

I agree :lmao: Being one of the most sympathetic people here :devil: I offer my comfort :boohoo:

Pud :twisted:

Sue K

16 Jan 2006, 02:46

I agree :lmao: Being one of the most sympathetic people here :devil: I offer my comfort :boohoo:

Pud :twisted:

.. i knew i could count on you Pud ... :shock: ... lol...

Steve6

16 Jan 2006, 02:49

Yeah you keeping laughing Pud.....

But think of someone who is going to spend the rest of there life recovering from it.

Pudding

16 Jan 2006, 02:55

Yeah you keeping laughing Pud.....

But think of someone who is going to spend the rest of there life recovering from it.

Well they do say laughter is the best medicine :lmao:

Pud :twisted:

Steve6

16 Jan 2006, 03:01

I am a stupid boy a really thick fool....

I am such a terrible person. I aint really, but I make people think I am.

Why do I make so many mistakes?

Sue K

16 Jan 2006, 03:03

I am a stupid boy a really thick fool....

I am such a terrible person. I aint really, but I make people think I am.

Why do I make so many mistakes?

is that a "Question To Steinman Fans" ?

tink.. getting back on topic...;) ...

Pudding

16 Jan 2006, 03:10

I'm a qualified Steiman fan, I can answer those questions :devil:

Q1. I am a stupid boy a really thick fool....

No comment

Q2. I am such a terrible person. I aint really, but I make people think I am.

No comment

Q3. Why do I make so many mistakes?

No comment

Pud :twisted:

shadow1000001

16 Jan 2006, 05:28

Thanks for clearing that up Pud! ;)

Cult Of Byron

16 Jan 2006, 06:29

I'm not quite sure when this Steinman/Meat divide ocurred, but if we're not careful, a couple of thousand years from now, people might be killing each other over them... Steinman/Loaf vs Christ/Mohammed (in no particular order)

rockfenris2005

16 Jan 2006, 08:40

Stephen, would you relax for Christ sake's! Don't take everything so personally. Meat Loaf doesn't even know you, has never even met you, knows nothing about you. It's not the end of the world FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Just, simply, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD IN GENERAL, WOULD YOU CALM DOWN AND NOT TAKE EVERYTHING SO PERSONALLY. Ug! You remind me of me in my younger years and I just want to slap you for it! LOL

In response to Fireball. Sonenberg is a manipulative man. He has been controlling Jim Steinman for thirty years. He was Meat Loaf's manager, and called him a big-shot, and went throuhg hell to secure the BAT deal. Then he was responsible for removing Steinman's credit. Meat Loaf wanted it back, pleading in tears on the telephone (just read Jim's interviews. Meat was more distrought than Jim was). Sonenberg wouldn't change it. And that small decision, thanks to the success of that album, ruined Meat Loaf and Jim Steinman for many years.

If Jim had of taken equal credit, as intended, Meat wouldn't have felt he was all alone: and he would never gone insane. Jim would have had more opportunities to be noticed for the great work he's doine. To this day, no one gives a f-uck that Steinman wrote those albums, and that to me is like saying no one gives a f-uck that Shakespeare wrote Hamlet. It's a tragedy. A musical tragedy.

Sonenberg, yes, convinced Steinman away from Meat. Steinman, blind as he can be, listened. The same thing happened with Pandora's Box and Bat 2. Sonenberg betrayed him for the final time with DANCE OF THE VAMPIRES, and Steinman sacked him. Now Steinman is back with Sonenberg, and curious how Steinman is not involved with Bat 3...

Maybe Sonenberg has an indestructible mission to make it up to Jim, to make it known that he's not just the guy behind Meat Loaf. Maybe I should admire that. But that man is the singular responsible reason for all the shit in the last 25 years. And no one gets over an $85 million lawsuit

CASE DISMISSED!

AndrewG

16 Jan 2006, 12:16

To this day, no one gives a f-uck that Steinman wrote those albums, and that to me is like saying no one gives a f-uck that Shakespeare wrote Hamlet. It's a tragedy. A musical tragedy.

I personally do think Steinman has been given quite a bit of credit for writing these songs, much more than the average songwriter IMHO. I ain't saying he's had enough, just saying that there is quite a bit of recognition what he's done and who he has written songs for etc.

rockfenris2005

16 Jan 2006, 12:59

Compaired to a lot of songwriters, Jim isn't that known. Most people, most rock and roll fans, recognize the work of Leiber & Stoller: and the legacy they left behind. Most Motown fans are familiar with the songwriter of Holland & Dozier. Most pop fans, and most people actually, have heard the work of Diane Warren & Desmond Child: all over the radio for the last ten years. Most people, most people who care, know that they wrote those songs. As a matter of fact, most songwriters are more recognized than Jim Steinman. He's probably mostly known for Bat Out of Hell and Total Eclipse of the Heart.

My issue is: Jim could have been a lot more known for Bat Out of Hell, which would have changed things. But Sonenberg altered the credit; what started as a unique collaboration between Meat Loaf and Jim Steinman became Meat Loaf in the leading role and Steinman as the unseen director. I've read interviews, from both Meat and Jim, stating how badly this ended up affecting them. This may even be partially responsible for the friction behind the Bat today. Jim isn't known as much as you think is.

Sure, he's had some astonishing hits, but walk up to a person and they probavbly wouldn't have heard of him. However, if the original credit had of been on Bat they would know him as much as Meat Loaf. But that's not the case. Even most musicians would know him, after Diane Warren, Desmond Child and all the others I mentioned.

Jim isn't that well known, to regular people, but there have been many opportunities and chances where he could have been.

rockfenris2005

16 Jan 2006, 13:08

These comments pretty much sum up my points:

ROB EVAN: "It’s funny, because if you ask people up and down the street if they know Jim, half look at you blankly, and then you mention Total Eclipse or Bat, and 10 out of 10 say yes, absolutely. They’ve heard them and have great memories of these songs..."

STEVE RINKOFF: "...Holding Out for a Hero, Total Eclipse of the Heart, Making Love Out of Nothing at All, I’d Do Anything for Love, But I Won’t Do That, because everyone knows these songs. Now though, Jim is also getting the credit he deserves. We’re trying to get across who Jim Steinman is, and that he’s not just a writer, he’s an artist. It’s not just like he writes it and hands it off – he’s the Dr. Frankenstein and we’re all the monsters. When Jim finds someone to write for, it’s not just like finding a singer to sing his songs. He gets to know a singer, and to know their voices..." etc.

Bart

16 Jan 2006, 15:00

So MEAT is not singing BfG on the next album. It's history.
And Steinman IS involved with the next album. I still don't see why he is not.

Space Monkey

17 Jan 2006, 00:34

Well they do say laughter is the best medicine :lmao:

Pud :twisted:
Ignore this if you're diabetic. Insulin is a better idea.

Steve6

17 Jan 2006, 01:42

My issue is: Jim could have been a lot more known for Bat Out of Hell, which would have changed things. .
Not true Ryan,

The album has sold over 35 million copies, anybody who knows there stuff about music will know Jim Steinman wrote BOOH.
We can quite easily give Todd Rundgren and Jim Steinman credit for BOOH but people never say anything about what Roy Bittan done for it. Which was alot.

Pudding

17 Jan 2006, 02:14

but people never say anything about what Roy Bittan done for it. Which was alot.
Which is what exactly, apart from playing the piano?

Pud :twisted:

Steve6

17 Jan 2006, 02:25

Which is what exactly, apart from playing the piano?

Pud :twisted:

He got credited for creative assistance on BOOH, but that was all and it only says it in small writing in the BOOH booklet.
So he done more for it then people may think.

Pudding

17 Jan 2006, 02:29

So what sort of credit do you think he deserves, in what form where? I'm sure he got paid well.

Pud :twisted:

Steve6

17 Jan 2006, 02:40

Emmmmm.........You have a point there :up: . But I'm sure everyone else did too. ;)

As for what credit I think he should have got. Well he should have been mentioned on "Classic albums: "Bat out of hell" which he did'nt.
But Jim Steinman, Meat Loaf, Todd Rundgren got plenty of credit on it.

rockfenris2005

17 Jan 2006, 06:50

OK. Stephen...

Try and answer this. Get out a copy of BAT OUT OF HELL or BAT OUT OF HELL II. Study the covers for (about) 5 seconds...

In blazing capitols, larger-than-life, is a name that reads "MEAT LOAF". Underneath is a similarly large title that reads "BAT OUT OF HELL". Not as large as the Meat Loaf, but large enough.

Then take a scroll down the page, like a bomb falling through the air, and you'll find a name (literally) in the midst of an explosion. In tiny capitol letters it reads... SONGS BY JIM STEINMAN. Some albums don't even have this credit.

Originally, it was to read: in large blazing capitol letters: MEAT LOAF & JIM STEINMAN, BAT OUT OF HELL. With, preferably, PRODUCED BY TODD RUNDGREN in big enough letters underneath.

It's the same deal with BAT OUT OF HELL II.

On the 25th Anniversary CD there's been a slight correction: which would have been good enough to use in 1977 (but noooooooooo they didn't LOL)

It reads, better than it was, but not how it should have been:

MEAT LOAF
BAT OUT OF HELL
SONGS BY JIM STEINMAN

Walk up to a person and say "BAT OUT OF HELL". What's the first name that springs to their head? MEAT LOAF.

Walk up to a person and say "BAT OUT OF HELL" and they'd probably 80% guarantee never mention the name of the man who write all its songs: and without that man's help there wouldn't have BEEN a BAT album. Some people seem to forget that. Some people seem to forget that Jim is partially responsible for that album, and while he's enjoyed success and accolades from it, people remember the singer's name and not the songwriter. This is only wrong because Meat and Jim were doing this together; not Meat Loaf or a record company paying a songwriter. This was against all the rules, but it was changed.

Even I, when I first brought BAT 2, said: "who the hell is Jim Steinman?"

Sad...

AndrewG

17 Jan 2006, 10:00

But this whole credit thing is the same all over. If you think Mission Impossible you think Tom Cruise, you don't necessarily think Brian dePalma and John Woo. Usually acting is probably one of the least intesive jobs making movies, while producers and directors will have endless working days. If you want to write songs you might not get famous for singing them, it's quite simple. I mean who the hell can remember all the songwriters for Elvis Presley who helped to make him famous. It's the same shit all round man.

I also think Meat has to work a lot harder on stage than many people realise to save his reputation.

rockfenris2005

18 Jan 2006, 02:59

Yeah, but Meat's a better person than all those Hollywood goons. If he was more ruthless he'd get more parts on film, IMO.

Meat has always tried to communicate Steinman's contributions, and that makes it different from everything else. Lieber and Stoller wrote a lot of Elvis songs, but you didn't see their credit at the bottom of the album. Also, some of the biggest stars of stage and screen were in Star Wars, and we all know that George Lucas was responsible for that.

Steinman deserved more recognition because it was an "exception to the rule". It was originally a duo, and not just a songwriter being paid to write for a 300-pound singer

rick

18 Jan 2006, 03:12

As fireball said it's all history .so why drag up old dirt and re-open old wound's
what matter's is that people are credited accordingly for their contribution's
however large or small, song writer to bottle washer they all deserve a mention
this is show bizz folk's .the music industry is a fickle thing.
I would assume that if it was "jim stienman's bat III" and in small letter's hidden at the bottom "sung by meat loaf",i wouldn't sell half as many as if it were the other way round.
that's the way marketing work's lead, with your strongest name
at the end of the day it is more than likely out of meat's hand's anyway !!!
Originally Posted by Pudding
Well they do say laughter is the best medicine

Pud

space monkey wrote:
Ignore this if you're diabetic. Insulin is a better idea.

nah novacaine is realy good :twisted: :twisted:

The Flying Mouse

18 Jan 2006, 03:23

:twisted: This argument is as old as the album itself.
What happened happened.
Meat got over it and so did Jimmy.
All the animosity was left behind a long time ago.
It was a joint effort, and the highlight of both careers IMHO.

As already been said, how many song writters are named on the front of an album cover?

Meat once said that Jimmy makes him a better singer, and he makes Jimmy a better writter.

I agree with that.

But that isn't to say that (no disrespect to either here) that Meat should be given songwritting credits, or Jimmy should be given credits above what he did on the album.

Yes, to his credit (and as Jimmy acknowledges, to his credit (ever feel your goin round in circles to make sure that your a$$ is covered on every word you say? :nuts: ) ) Meat pushed for more recognition for Jimmy, but Bat was sold on the focal point of the lead singer.Some people can live with that, some can't, but the ONLY TWO PEOPLE this should concern have put this issue to rest a long time ago.

This was a joint effort, and the people who matter know and acknowledge the parts played by two heavyweight talents who are the best in their line in creating a musical masterpiece.

The Flying Mouse

18 Jan 2006, 03:24

Right.
Thread LOCKED while I clear this up :evil:

The Flying Mouse

18 Jan 2006, 03:36

:twisted: OK few select posts thrown in the bin.

Reasons for this (aand which I wish posters to bear in mind for future posts on this thread).......

1.Going off topic.This is (I think :wtf: ) a discussion about Meat and Jimmy.It's not a discussion about copying, pasting, wallpapering, quilt making, or anything else.
Stay on topic please.

2.A reminder, arguments that start off these forums, STAY OFF THESE FORUMS.
Information is always welcome, but posting peoples posts from other boards onto these forums is a no no.
PERIOD.

3.No personal attacks.
Simmer down.

Thread opened FOR DISCUSSION again.

Jaymze

18 Jan 2006, 13:51

AndrewG

18 Jan 2006, 13:57

I agree Jaymze. I think there are a lot of writers who don't get much credit.

As a matter of fact I was watching University Challenge and one of the questions was 'who is the self-titled prince of darkness and writer of the BOOH albums?' to which someone replied 'Jim Steinway' which was close I suppose.
Next question:
Who was the producer:

---uuuh, toddler rundgren? :D

Louise

18 Jan 2006, 15:50

It was todd who was the real genius behind Bat 1,

I thought the "genius" side of music comes from writing beautiful, meaningful lyrics along with the music? ie the the base of the entire concept. Jim's songs make you stop in your tracks and listen, unlike throwaway pop rubbish we get now. Todd is a great producer. and made Bat sound good, but he was hardly the "genius" behind it all. The entire album is successful due the combination of lyrics/music, production and the singer. To single Todd out because he twiddled a few knobs hardly seems fair...

My two pennyworth

Louise x

Jaymze

18 Jan 2006, 16:41

To be fair I'm sure that if Dead Ringer had either Steinman or Todd in production with Meat at the helm it would have been a smash- leaving it to Meat to produce, who at the time had little production skill when compared to now was obviously a mistake. However I still think Steinman is the real genius out of him and Rundgren- look at how he has an ear for success i.e Bonnie Tyler and Celine Dion. Plus we can hardly credit Anything For Love to Rundgren- that is the best written and recorded song I've ever heard.

Louise

18 Jan 2006, 16:45

well said!

Louise x

Bart

18 Jan 2006, 17:25

I think Dead Ringer has the most amazing piano arrangements.
The basic tracks were produced by Steinman.
The album is dated but the songs are phenomenal. There is nothing wrong with another Dead Ringer.

The Flying Mouse

18 Jan 2006, 18:26

:twisted: I think Dead Ringer kicks serious A$$ :cool:

Jaymze

18 Jan 2006, 19:09

Yeah it does, as anyone can hear the songs have a lot of potential- some of them are huge ballads, that's why with the correct production and arrangement the album would have been a huge success. Yes there is a problem with another Dead Ringer, because the original album bombed probably due to a combination of bad management/advertising and I sincerely hope that does not happen to Bat III.

The Flying Mouse

18 Jan 2006, 19:30

:twisted: POTENTIAL? :shock:

Steve6

18 Jan 2006, 19:53

Plus we can hardly credit Anything For Love to Rundgren- that is the best written and recorded song I've ever heard.
Well he did sing background vocals with Rory Dodd and Kasim Sulton on that single, so yet again he contributed something to the cause. ;)
He even sang in and arranged the backing vocals on CHSIB also.

Jaymze

18 Jan 2006, 19:57

well whether he sanf bk ground vocals or not I've got a bit of an incling that the song would have still went to number 1

Steve6

18 Jan 2006, 20:20

well whether he sanf bk ground vocals or not I've got a bit of an incling that the song would have still went to number 1
Yes it would have.....:up: but at least he done something that deserved a little credit, like all the other people involved. A singer and songwriter don't make an album completely by themselves. Yes they do contribute 50% to it, but the rest goes to all the people in the production end of things.

AndrewG

18 Jan 2006, 20:42

Yes it would have.....:up: but at least he done something that deserved a little credit, like all the other people involved. A singer and songwriter don't make an album completely by themselves. Yes they do contribute 50% to it, but the rest goes to all the people in the production end of things.

I agree that the band is quite important. Don't think you can put a 50% figure on that though so easily. A song like DIST certainly has been produced to sound Meat Loafy I think. A lot of Meat Loaf songs hark back on cliches and use conventional rock chord progressions like Springsteen's songs. But it's how you play/sing it all to get that unique sound that makes things quite important. However I am sure Steinman "hears" a lot of his songs while he is writing. "Anything for Love" was first only on piano when Meat heard it he said, I'm sure Jim imagined a lot of the backing vocals and the amount of other stuff they could do with the song.

Pudding

18 Jan 2006, 20:48

Background vocals are just added fluff, great fluff in some cases, but I don't think the person(s) doing/singing them should get credit for the overall production of a song.

Pud :twisted:

Jaymze

18 Jan 2006, 23:09

And where are you going to stop? What about the tea boy who brought Meat his coffee? If that coffee hadn't woken Meat up properly the song wouldn't have sounded so good so we've gotta thank the tea boy! And the runner! What if the runner had slept in and turned up late with Jimmy's dinner, Jimmy would have been mad and maybe not finished Objects but instead wrote a song about bad runner's- 'Runner's should go to hell' and it would have wrecked the album so thank you to the Runners! Where are we going to stop? Anyone?

L96

18 Jan 2006, 23:22

I vote we stop at three: writer, singer and producer.

That said, it makes life easier if one of the three can perform two roles, then we can stop at two.

:D

Jaymze

18 Jan 2006, 23:46

I agree with that!

L96

18 Jan 2006, 23:54

Well, spin my nipple nuts and blow me to Alaska... there is actually an agreement around here! :D

The Flying Mouse

19 Jan 2006, 00:01

:twisted: I vote we read the linear notes, say "yeah cool" acknowledge who did what and leave it at that :wink:

L96

19 Jan 2006, 00:05

Yeah, but where's the fun in that? :D

Plus, there is still a debate as to who did what, and how much of it.

A potentially unsolvable debate, but one nonetheless. :D

AndrewG

19 Jan 2006, 00:09

Well, spin my nipple nuts and blow me to Alaska... there is actually an agreement around here! :D
:lmao:

mikeloaf

19 Jan 2006, 00:14

I don't really understand why people argue about Bat 1 and Dead Ringer, etc. Like Meat says, it all history.

Don't forget Bat 2 was 13 years ago, Bat 1 29 'ish years ago. I doubt the issues people are debating here are of any relevance to Meat or anyone else involved in those albums.

Meat says Bat3 will be ready in four months and launched in September, just look FORWARD to that.

L96

19 Jan 2006, 00:17

Not so much arguing, as talking about other albums. The discussion may not have relevence to anyone involved, but most people enjoy these discussions, as far as I can tell. Mate, they even enjoy getting worked up about things, it's called passion.

If we are looking forward to Bat III, does this mean that every other album Meat has ever been involved with becomes irrelevent and unlikable?

I don't think so. :D

mikeloaf

19 Jan 2006, 00:31

Of course not. That isn't what I said. These albums have already been produced years ago, so what is the point in debating them?

From my reading of Meat's comments they are in the past.

Listen to Bat 1, Dead Ringer, BA, BBIS, Bat2, etc., etc. and other Meat related albums all you like, I do, I listen to Meat's albums most days.

I don't think the issues debated here about Bat 1, etc. are relevant to Meat.

The focus should be on supporting Bat 3.

I don't think I even implied that other Meat albums were irrelevant or unlikable, because I like all of them.

I am pointing out that it is in the past and cannot be changed.

L96

19 Jan 2006, 00:36

You are correct, the past cannot be changed. But it can still be discussed!

Now, I would love to chat about Bat III, is there any particular aspect you would like to talk about? :D

Steve6

19 Jan 2006, 00:45

Its always exciting to talk and have an arguement about Bat 3. ;)
Everyone has there own views on how they would like. But I feel everyone would agree that Steinman is important.
But we have to remember Jim has had to recover from serious strokes and that maybe the reason why he is'nt involved at the moment.
It takes a long time to get over it. Thats why he has taken it easy in recent years.

mikeloaf

19 Jan 2006, 00:51

No lotus96, not at the moment. Like Meat said we only have 4 months to wait. Discuss all you like about old albums. I'm patient!

Steve6, you are right, we shouldn't forget its people we are talking about.

rockfenris2005

19 Jan 2006, 11:41

From a marketing stand point and from the general audience's point of view- not mine, they don't really care who wrote the songs, all they want to do is take home the CD and listen to it. If you get upset over Steinmans name not being as big as Meat's on the CD than what about all those artists whose song writers names aren't on the CD cover at all? Do you think Elton John fans get mad that his lyric writers name's not on the cover of his CD's? Or Whitney Houston's song writers name's not on the cover of her CD's?

As a matter of fact I was watching University Challenge and one of the questions was 'who is the self-titled prince of darkness and writer of the BOOH albums?' to which someone replied 'Jim Steinway' which was close I suppose.

You still haven't quite grasped the concept I'm afraid...

Unlike Elton John and Whitney Houston, and all of the examples you've made, Meat Loaf didn't *pay* a songwriter to tailor a particular song to him. Meat and Jim were actors, from the New York Shakespeare Festival, who teamed up intending to write an album "together".

Note where I put the emphasis on "together". It was like Hall and Oates, Simon and Garfunkel. Meat was the singer, the character, and Jim was the songwriter, the director. Jim wasn't some random lyricist who was paid by Meat's management to devise a debut album for Meat Loaf. Jim was Meat's friend, and they started it together. Sonenberg thought the album would be more commercial if they sold it from the stancepoint that you've just said. But like our friendly moderator has said, that's all history now: even though I've never really seen a statement from either man agreeing to this theory.

Here's an interesting interview (I know it's a bit random to suggest this, but it'd intrigue you):

http://jimsteinman.com/Q&AwithJim1.htm

Great Quotes btw.

We were a duo in the sense, a different kind, but it was for two, two and a half, three years we were working as Meat Loaf and Jim Steinman, like Hall And Oates. So I was stunned 'cause David was his manager and when we got to CBS to sign the record deal, I remember it was a big table, like 12 people, and the president, Walter Yetnikov was at one end, and they sent the contract around to be signed.

It went by me, I wasn't there to sign it. I remember being surprised and saying, hey wait, I didn't get to sign it, and they said, well you're not in it. That was the first I had found out that they had taken my name off and I think Meat probably thinks this had a more profound effect on me than it did. But maybe it did have that profound effect. I just remember being really startled and sort of shattered just because in my mind it was a very cool thing to have this combination of a song writer pianist and a singer.

I didn't know of any example of that and I thought it was really cool. It was the reason all of our auditions were just piano and him. It was what we intended the whole thing to be, a piano in the center of the stage, and it would be like that. David's reasoning was that he thought it was easier to sell with the name Meat Loaf. I didn't agree with him but I also mainly was upset that I didn't know about it.

So it wasn't about Meat and, to Meat Loaf's great credit, he was wonderfully loyal. I actually eavesdropped without him knowing it at a studio in New Jersey. We were working on Bat Out Of Hell and he got on the phone to David in tears and pleaded with him to put the credit back to the way it was 'cause he didn't feel comfortable with it being only Meat Loaf, which is an interesting seed to a bigger story.

I still believe honestly, had it kept the original credit, I suppose this is a little self-serving, but I don't mean it that way. I think Meat would've had a much easier time over the last 30 years. 'Cause one thing Meat will admit to I'm sure is he'll say, I never wanted to be a star. I'm not comfortable being a star, and he had a lot of breakdowns and problems, which I think had a lot to do with it was just his name.

He felt much more comfortable when it was the two of us 'cause we shared the burden and he wasn't the person who had to come up with the creative work. He didn't have to write the stuff. I think when he felt his name was there, 'cause you know how the audience is, the audience thinks actors make up their lines, they think the singer, to this day a lot of people think Meat Loaf wrote the songs, that proved to be a great burden on him, and I think taxed everything.

I still to this day honestly believe had it been billed as a duo, Meat would not have had one tenth of the problems he had psychologically and I think I would've been happier because I wanted to feel part of it, more than behind the scenes. But once it happened, it happened, you know. I remember when I was thinking about it saying, well no one's ever gonna hear this record anyway, it's not gonna matter, why should I get upset about it, this is such an absurd little project.

So I didn't get overly freaked out. I got more, probably, upset about it later on, a few years later like when Meat lost his voice. I was thinking, this is so awkward, this whole thing is clumsy and I really think it was a terrible act because I think Meat didn't want that burden on him. He didn't wanna feel like (that), and you could see that if you were with him, as I was, every day when we were touring.

The audience would chant for him and love him and it was wonderful and I felt fine. It was great 'cause they were loving the songs too but I could tell it was hard for him because it's almost like he felt he had to come up with songs for the next record. Suddenly there was this split between us and we weren't like one organism. I was someone like the director, and he was the actor, and there was a split and it was awkward, basically...

R.L.