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-   -   Meat Loaf Endorses Mitt Romney For POTUS (https://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18584)

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke (Post 579364)
Neither of those are points I have made.

:twisted: I think you have :bleh:




Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke (Post 579344)
Had Meat merely used his own vote rather than attempting to use his fame to try to influence others political decisions, this discussion wouldn't exist.



Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke (Post 579344)
Meat basically using his fanbase and his fame to try to tell people how to vote makes me respect him less,


And, either you don't like Romney, or you meant this in the best way possible..............




Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke (Post 579357)
There's a vast difference between telling you what pants to wear and telling you who to vote for. Whichever brand of boxers Beckham decides to promote isn't ultimately going to affect people's right to marry or retain autonomy over their body.



So, again, is your main problem that Meat (along with other celebs) endorce a candidate, or is the problem with who Meat is endorcing?

Tomjoad 28 Oct 2012 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarylB (Post 579348)
I don't see why it's that different to a gig. Paul got a kick out of being on the bus and posted a photo, Dave Luther posted some pictures and basically said it was an honour to be within feet of a Presidential candidate even if as a liberal he didn't support him, and that everybody was just having fun with it.

There's a world of difference in my opinion. That was not a fair or a carnival, that was a political rally. If one or two members of the band say "cool!" and post a picture, doesn't mean all of them were comfortable. This has to be clear: if you perform on a stage at a rally, you are perceived as a supporter of that candidate. Did Meat ask them one by one if they wanted to go? I hope so.

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomjoad (Post 579367)
There's a world of difference in my opinion. That was not a fair or a carnival, that was a political rally. If one or two members of the band say "cool!" and post a picture, doesn't mean all of them were comfortable. This has to be clear: if you perform on a stage at a rally, you are perceived as a supporter of that candidate. Did Meat ask them one by one if they wanted to go? I hope so.

:twisted: As i've said in a prior post, who was willing, who was not willing, how they were asked, it's all speculation.

Until Meat or any band member decides to enlighten us with the facts, let's not try proving any points using gueswork :wink:

lorenzoduke 28 Oct 2012 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse (Post 579366)
:twisted: I think you have :bleh:

So, again, is your main problem that Meat (along with other celebs) endorce a candidate, or is the problem with who Meat is endorcing?

Nice try. In neither of those quotes you've painstakingly taken out of context do I ask how Meat could vote for Romney - indeed, I say 'if only he had just voted for him'.

I have also said I would feel the same regardless of who he was telling people to vote for. Apparently you chose to ignore that quote. What a surprise. :roll:

I do not like the idea of Meat Loaf using his fame to tell people who to vote for. It divides fans and it is something he has never done before.

I don't like the fact that he offered an unqualified endorsement, his first in 40 years, only to turn around the next day and say he disagrees with Romney on a number of key issues.

I also never ask why Meat feels he is in a position to use his celebrity for an endorsement. Meat is in that position, clearly. I simply said I don't think he should and that it will (and has) divide his fans.

I have also said I find it disrespectful to tell people to argue with their family and friends rather than respecting their own opinions. Once again, you ignore this, determined as you are to ignore everything I've said and push the agenda you've invented for me.

You seem to have some sort of desperation to tell me what I think rather than listening to what I have said. I've explained my points clearly and concisely - everyone but you seems to have understood them. I can't be bothered wasting further effort explaining.

Sarge 28 Oct 2012 18:55

I'd like to thank lorenzoduke for his posts. (Since I refrain from clicking "like" or "dislike" buttons, I have to do it this way.)

CarylB 28 Oct 2012 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomjoad (Post 579367)
There's a world of difference in my opinion. That was not a fair or a carnival, that was a political rally. If one or two members of the band say "cool!" and post a picture, doesn't mean all of them were comfortable. This has to be clear: if you perform on a stage at a rally, you are perceived as a supporter of that candidate. Did Meat ask them one by one if they wanted to go? I hope so.

Were I a member of a backing band I would not see it that way. That's my view. You are entitled to yours, as are they to theirs. I have merely posted what two band members have made public via the net. I am not speculating as to how each felt or if each was asked .. I agree with Mouse. If it is an issue for you, you could ask them individually. They are all on FB.

Tomjoad 28 Oct 2012 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarylB (Post 579374)
Were I a member of a backing band I would not see it that way. That's my view. You are entitled to yours, as are they to theirs. I have merely posted what two band members have made public via the net. I am not speculating as to how each felt or if each was asked .. I agree with Mouse. If it is an issue for you, you could ask them individually. They are all on FB.

Not my intention to speculate. My point is that nobody should be put in a sticky situation like that. That's all.

CarylB 28 Oct 2012 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomjoad (Post 579375)
Not my intention to speculate. My point is that nobody should be put in a sticky situation like that. That's all.

No, I said I wasn't speculating as to how each felt or was asked.

Some might say that to imply anyone was put in a sticky situation, as far as they were concerned, is speculation ;)

loaferman61 28 Oct 2012 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewG (Post 579327)
How do you know this for sure? Do you have some statistics to back this up? You only have to look at the reactions of some of the hard core fans here to see that some people ARE disappointed. A lesser hard core fan may indeed throw the records out or not play or buy them anymore or not go to his gigs anymore. I certainly think that this is a possibility because of this association. If Romney wins I think that that is even more likely than if he loses.

Hence my words "I'm betting" and "a lot" as opposed to "I'm certain" and "all"

MarkS 28 Oct 2012 20:05

To the people who keep harping on about the band members, no one held a gun to anyone's head and said "do this or die." They are all f**king adults, and they made the decision on their own to attend. Do they support Romney, who the hell knows, we won't know unless they come here and tell us one way or the other.

A job is a job, but I would imagine that anyone who didn't want to be involved did not have to be if they didn't want to.

Sarge 28 Oct 2012 20:06

A question that's not related to political controversy: How come videos of Meat Loaf singing America The Beautiful at the rally are removed from YouTube due to copyright claims by Red Pony Tours? What exactly does Meat Loaf hold the copyright to in this case?

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke (Post 579371)
Nice try.

:twisted: Try? :wtf:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke (Post 579371)
In neither of those quotes you've painstakingly taken out of context do I ask how Meat could vote for Romney - indeed, I say 'if only he had just voted for him'.

Taken out of context?
I've read what you said, and posted the relevant parts to what I was asking.

You're obvious dislike for Romney is why I asked for clarification on weather it was the crandidate or or the endorcement itself that you didn't like.



Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke (Post 579371)
I have also said I would feel the same regardless of who he was telling people to vote for. Apparently you chose to ignore that quote. What a surprise. :roll:

Sorry, I must have overlooked that. No sarcasm required, I only asked you for a clarification.


Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke (Post 579371)
I do not like the idea of Meat Loaf using his fame to tell people who to vote for. It divides fans and it is something he has never done before.

I do not like the idea of Meat Loaf using his fame to tell people who to vote for. It divides fans and it is something he has never done before.

I don't like the fact that he offered an unqualified endorsement, his first in 40 years, only to turn around the next day and say he disagrees with Romney on a number of key issues.

Then it's the endorcement you have a problem with.
But I asked you weather it was the cadidate or the endorcement you didn't like, and you said you had not made either point.




Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke (Post 579371)
I also never ask why Meat feels he is in a position to use his celebrity for an endorsement. Meat is in that position, clearly. I simply said I don't think he should and that it will (and has) divide his fans.


So again, it's the endorcement itself you have the problem with, not the fact it was Romney endorced. This is all I asked you.


Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke (Post 579371)
I have also said I find it disrespectful to tell people to argue with their family and friends rather than respecting their own opinions.

Fair enough.
I don't think it's unusual for someone talking to a political crowd to urge them to fight their corner.
I also think it's normal that the crowd needs no telling. It's normal that the celebrity speaker will have pretty much 0 effect on the commitment to those he speaks too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke (Post 579371)
Once again, you ignore this, determined as you are to ignore everything I've said and push the agenda you've invented for me.

:wtf:
I've asked you what your biggest issue was, and asked you to clarify, even when you've said the point you've made over and over is a point you've never made.

How can I invent an agenda for you when I have no idea what point you are trying to make?



Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke (Post 579371)
You seem to have some sort of desperation to tell me what I think rather than listening to what I have said. I've explained my points clearly and concisely -

And then gone back to say that you weren't saying it :wtf:


Quote:

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke (Post 579371)
I can't be bothered wasting further effort explaining.

I'd say we'll agree to disagree, but I think we actually agree. It's hard to say because you said you weren't making the point I was agreeing with.

I'll settle for agreeing to disagree :lol:

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomjoad (Post 579375)
Not my intention to speculate. My point is that nobody should be put in a sticky situation like that. That's all.

:twisted: I agree 100% :up:
My point is we don't know if there was any sticky situation.

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarge (Post 579379)
A question that's not related to political controversy: How come videos of Meat Loaf singing America The Beautiful at the rally are removed from YouTube due to copyright claims by Red Pony Tours? What exactly does Meat Loaf hold the copyright to in this case?

:twisted: A good point :up:
It's strange that having given such an endorcement Meat wouldn't want anybody to see it :wtf:

You could argue that he's got some sort of claim over it was his live peformance, but I personally think it's more to do with the poor quality of the performance.

CarylB 28 Oct 2012 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarge (Post 579379)
What exactly does Meat Loaf hold the copyright to in this case?

I would imagine his performance. Videos of an artist's performance taken by individuals in any public venue without specific permission are not legal, nor are those ripped from news channels. That would be my understanding, but Meat would be the person to ask for a definite answer. You could PM him.

AndrewG 28 Oct 2012 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarge (Post 579379)
A question that's not related to political controversy: How come videos of Meat Loaf singing America The Beautiful at the rally are removed from YouTube due to copyright claims by Red Pony Tours? What exactly does Meat Loaf hold the copyright to in this case?

I am assuming in many cases the words "This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Red Pony Tours." actually mean "This video is no longer available because it sucked and I don't want anyone else to see it and I am using the copyright claim route to get it flipping removed from YouTube." :twisted:

TheDoode 28 Oct 2012 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse (Post 579363)
:twisted: OK, how about............

"people of the mindset that they can project their own personal opinions onto their favourite celebrity are freaking nuts".

Is that better?

Ah, no. Not really. If you have the right to say that about them here, then likewise anyone here has the right to call behavior they may deem as 'freaking nuts', well, just that. The difference is: you get away with it. This I'm not that good with.

BostonAngel 28 Oct 2012 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarylB (Post 579318)
For accuracy, they have not been deleted. Some of the more sexually graphic ones will probably have been removed by Facebook because they have been reported.

However, please let's not derail the thread. It was great that Meat gave such a fantastic show again, and Kathy's review is lovely to read. Thank you again Kathy :-)

Caryl

the last time I had checked Meat's Facebook page almost ANY post that had to do with supporting Obama, being disappointed in Meat's choice to endorse Romney or anything that could be taken as anti Romney, even if it had been expresed with thoughtfulness and respect has been deleted. So he gets to shove his opinion in our face, yet fans (and others) don't get to voice their opinion even when it is done in a respectful manner? HIs speech to endorse Romney was much more than a simple endorsement saying, yeah I happen to support this man. It was preaching and telling others how to do, how to vote. The way he is handling things on his FB page to me comes across as cowardly as well as hypocritcal and even borders on propoganda. Just because he deletes the criticism & disappoinment of others, it doesn't mean it isn't still there. And he is only causing further disappointment.
As Julie said, if you can't stand the heat say out of the kitchen.
He has given me one more reason to question his character and integrity with this endorsement and how he has handled the aftermath.

TheDoode 28 Oct 2012 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewG (Post 579385)
I am assuming in many cases the words "This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Red Pony Tours." actually mean "This video is no longer available because it sucked and I don't want anyone else to see it and I am using the copyright claim route to get it flipping removed from YouTube." :twisted:

So while we're on the subject: maybe a softer vocal delivery might help these days? It's a criticism if you like, but it's constructive! I think we all want Meat to come off well at these events.

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoode (Post 579386)
Ah, no. Not really. If you have the right to say that about them here, then likewise anyone here has the right to call behavior they may deem as 'freaking nuts', well, just that. The difference is: you get away with it. This I'm not that good with.

:twisted: OK, how about, instead of freaking nuts, unrealistic and possessive?

MarkS 28 Oct 2012 20:35

I must have missed the "respectful" expression of opinion on Facebook. Most of what I saw was riddled with bad language and insults. Quickest solution, get rid of it all.

I also find it odd for someone who for years has been so far up Meat's ass that she can taste his his food to suddenly turn on him over politics

If you make your musical listening decisions based on an artists political leanings then you are an idiot.

I don't support Romney, but I'm not going to turn on meat because of it. I'm not going to go out and burn Springsteen albums just because he supports Obama. People need to get a ~~~~ing grip

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

AndrewG 28 Oct 2012 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoode (Post 579388)
So while we're on the subject: maybe a softer vocal delivery might help these days? It's a criticism if you like, but it's constructive! I think we all want Meat to come off well at these events.

I agree. The problem with Meat going over the top whilst his voice was tired and he was unable to control it made the vocal into some of the most awful singing I've ever heard. This may sound mean but I am being brutally honest. Ironically he has also delivered the best vocals I've ever heard in my life. :?

Julie in the rv mirror 28 Oct 2012 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkS (Post 579390)
I don't support Romney, but I'm not going to turn on meat because of it. I'm not going to go out and burn Springsteen albums just because he supports Obama. People need to get a ~~~~ing grip

You might not, but other people do (or say they do). The same hateful crap has been spread over the internet about Bruce for years. So much for the "Second Coming". :lol:

MarkS 28 Oct 2012 20:51

As a voting American, this sums many of my thoughts on our candidates and this election

From Richard Marx on Twitter

@richardmarx: For me, this election is like deciding whether I'd prefer a Nike or an Adidas to kick me square in the nuts.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by BostonAngel (Post 579387)
the last time I had checked Meat's Facebook page almost ANY post that had to do with supporting Obama, being disappointed in Meat's choice to endorse Romney or anything that could be taken as anti Romney, even if it had been expresed with thoughtfulness and respect has been deleted. So he gets to shove his opinion in our face, yet fans (and others) don't get to voice their opinion even when it is done in a respectful manner? HIs speech to endorse Romney was much more than a simple endorsement saying, yeah I happen to support this man. It was preaching and telling others how to do, how to vote. The way he is handling things on his FB page to me comes across as cowardly as well as hypocritcal and even borders on propoganda. Just because he deletes the criticism & disappoinment of others, it doesn't mean it isn't still there. And he is only causing further disappointment.
As Julie said, if you can't stand the heat say out of the kitchen.
He has given me one more reason to question his character and integrity with this endorsement and how he has handled the aftermath.

:twisted: I agree, to an extent.
Any celeb sticking their head above the parapet can expect to be shot at, but this wasn't a smattering of rifle fire, some of it was fraking 24 pounder artillery :shock:

My post, although supportive of Meat, was not pro Romney, and it's still there. I'll post it here for the sake of example............


Quote:

Het Meat.
I see you are taking a lot of flak for backing Mitt Romney.
Just wanted to say in the face of all this hostility thatI don't agree with your choice of candidate, but I don't have to.
Especially as I don't live in the US lol.
You have your views, and the right to express them (even if it means putting a target on your back).

Meat Loaf, to me, is a kick ass singer who brings the best. I don't need to embrace your politics to enjoy your music, and it baffles me that people are saying they do not wish to be your fans anymore because of who you back.
That's like backing a football team because of the breed of the managers dog :S
Rock on Meat, and keep bringing the best 8)
While looking for the post I also came across one that's still up calling Meat "mittloaf" (and not in a good way).
So not every post has been deleted that doesn't show support for Romney, but no doubt some have.

The most vile comments have no doubt been deleted, but that's only right.

If respectful comments have been taken down, i'd have to see the content myself to judge weather it was right (in my oppinion) to take them down or not.

End of the day, if you're going to speak up you must accept others will reply in disagreement.

I personally think that to make a political endorcement was a mistake, and no good come of it for Meat or his fans. But i'm not going to hold it agaist him. The endorcement, or who it's in favour of. I have a minimal opinion on Meat's ability to influence people in these matters and treat it with equally little importance.

MarkS 28 Oct 2012 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror (Post 579392)

You might not, but other people do (or say they do). The same hateful crap has been spread over the internet about Bruce for years. So much for the "Second Coming". :lol:

If that's the case, than I feel sorry for Bruce as well, because nobody, regardless of political alliance deserves this kind of crap

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkS (Post 579393)
As a voting American, this sums many of my thoughts on our candidates and this election

From Richard Marx on Twitter

@richardmarx: For me, this election is like deciding whether I'd prefer a Nike or an Adidas to kick me square in the nuts.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

:twisted: :spit:

BostonAngel 28 Oct 2012 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewG (Post 579327)
How do you know this for sure? Do you have some statistics to back this up? You only have to look at the reactions of some of the hard core fans here to see that some people ARE disappointed. A lesser hard core fan may indeed throw the records out or not play or buy them anymore or not go to his gigs anymore. I certainly think that this is a possibility because of this association. If Romney wins I think that that is even more likely than if he loses.

I am one of those hard core fans. I don't know of too many people that could question that. I have always supported Meat. Rarely if ever have I been critical of him. I have always praised him and even looked up to him; A great actor, a great musician, an amazing performance, and a a wonderful human being, I thought. Am I now disappointed in him? I think I have made that very clear. I am disappointed in his endorsement of Romney, however if it were only that I could live with it. It was his pompous (in my opinion) and preachy attitude in the way he expressed it, telling people to argue with friends and family". That I may still be able to get over. His vocal performance when he endorsed Romney was extremely poor, and I am being kind in saying it that way. One bad performance I could forgive. However, along with everything else it makes me start questioning things. Of course then he has to go & delete all the video evidence of it, as if by doing that he can pretend the whole thing doesn't exist. Then when tries to explain his postition on FB, he says he disagrees with many of Romney's policies, yet still DEMANDS that we vote for him and fight with others to do the same. His explanations of his position, just baffled me even more. Then he has anything that is the least bit supportive of Obama or expresses the least bit of disappointment in his decision to endorse Romney deleted from his FB page.

I have had ALL of my posts deleted from his page. I started off being respectful and simply expressing my concern & disappointment. When I wasn't shown the couresy of having MY OPINION respected, I could longer show him respect since he had proven that it wasn't deserved.


I still love his music. It is hard to listen to the music of a man you once respected without having very mixed feelings. I am not at the point where i am ready to get rid of my collection. Depending on how this plays out going forward, it may come to that. I wasn't only a fan of his music I was a fan of him as a person. it is all tied together.

I am one of the die hard fans
I am very disappointed in the man

AndrewG 28 Oct 2012 21:04

Very honest post by BostonAngel. It's quite sad it comes to this. I feel Meat has in the past done other things to alienate fans too. It's a shame. It's not even Meat's political choice I have a problem with it is how he has conducted himself (I very much agree with BostonAngel) is a bigger issue to me; bad singing and trying to get all evidence of his support now deleted.

I completely disagree with MarkS saying you are an idiot when you base your music listening on a person's political views. In my opinion one is an idiot for suggesting it never matters. 14 pages in, if it doesn't matter then why are people talking about it?

BostonAngel 28 Oct 2012 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkS (Post 579378)
To the people who keep harping on about the band members, no one held a gun to anyone's head and said "do this or die." They are all f**king adults, and they made the decision on their own to attend. Do they support Romney, who the hell knows, we won't know unless they come here and tell us one way or the other.

A job is a job, but I would imagine that anyone who didn't want to be involved did not have to be if they didn't want to.

WE are speculating about how the other band members came to be there.
We don't know if they were asked or told to appear.
This is a scenario to consider in the real world: If your boss told you to do something that was fundamentally against your beliefs & principles would you do it? Would you say YES and go against your beliefs? Would you stand up for your beliefs and say NO? How secure to you think your job would be if you went against what your boss said to do? In most situations that would put your job in jeopardy. Either way you are faced with an uncomfortable & and precarious dilema. As I said, we don't know if the band was asked to appear & given or choice or if they were simply told that they were appearing. It is speculation.

CarylB 28 Oct 2012 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by BostonAngel (Post 579387)
the last time I had checked Meat's Facebook page almost ANY post that had to do with supporting Obama, being disappointed in Meat's choice to endorse Romney or anything that could be taken as anti Romney, even if it had been expresed with thoughtfulness and respect has been deleted.

At the time I posted that, less had been removed. They have cleaned up there today, although some critical posts aimed at Meat remain. So some less abusive may well have been thrown away with the bathwater of profanity and outrageous comments. C'et la vie. Personally I am glad to see his fan page back to some semblance of what it normally is.

Quote:

So he gets to shove his opinion in our face,
Really? I thought this was at a rally of Romney supporters? He didn't shove my face in it, an although it made the news in the USA (and Meat has many fans outside the USA), no-one HAS to watch everything on the news. A rally is an event where those supporting someone DO speak out strongly and encourage people to rally support.

Quote:

yet fans (and others) don't get to voice their opinion even when it is done in a respectful manner?
Yes they did, and if some respectful comments (and they were in far lesser proportion to the angry, abusive and threatening ones) got lost when threads with abuse scattered through them were removed, that's just one of those things. Many threads which started reasonably were dragged into the gutter by supporters of both candidates. Both Meat and Frances are busy people, and sometimes it will be easier to remove a thread rather than pick out individual comments. I started a thread with a supportive comment and later someone added abuse. It all went. I'm OK with that. Plus they were nearly all there for several days for those who are genuinely fans to read them. (I say nearly all because I reported some really disgusting ones to Facebook, and I think I was not the only one, and FB may well have removed them before today)

Quote:

The way he is handling things on his FB page to me comes across as cowardly as well as hypocritcal and even borders on propoganda.
Your view, not mine. I disagree absolutely, and to remove abusive comments, even if a few non-abusive ones get lost is not propaganda.

Quote:

He has given me one more reason to question his character and integrity with this endorsement and how he has handled the aftermath.
Meat's integrity and his character remain intact as far as I am concerned. In my view he has handled what followed the rally with dignity, patience, and courtesy.

Caryl

CarylB 28 Oct 2012 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by BostonAngel (Post 579399)
It is speculation.

Which a moderator has asked us not to do

MarkS 28 Oct 2012 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewG (Post 579398)
I completely disagree with MarkS saying you are an idiot when you base your music listening on a person's political views. In my opinion one is an idiot for suggesting it never matters. 14 pages in, if it doesn't matter then why are people talking about it?

I make my music listening decision based upon the music, not the person singing it. If you are making music decisions based on politics than you are missing out on a lot of good music.

Like I said earlier, people need to get a grip and chill, and if Meat has alienated anyone as a fan, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Meat has made his political decision and a bunch of bitching and moaning from a few fans won't change his mind. Nor should his endorsement change your mind if its already made up

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Julie in the rv mirror 28 Oct 2012 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkS (Post 579395)
If that's the case, than I feel sorry for Bruce as well, because nobody, regardless of political alliance deserves this kind of crap

You're right, but it comes with the territory. I highly doubt that he goes home at night and cries about it. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BostonAngel
It was his pompous (in my opinion) and preachy attitude in the way he expressed it, telling people to argue with friends and family". That I may still be able to get over. His vocal performance when he endorsed Romney was extremely poor, and I am being kind in saying it that way. One bad performance I could forgive. However, along with everything else it makes me start questioning things. Of course then he has to go & delete all the video evidence of it, as if by doing that he can pretend the whole thing doesn't exist. Then when tries to explain his postition on FB, he says he disagrees with many of Romney's policies, yet still DEMANDS that we vote for him and fight with others to do the same.

I saw his telling people to argue with their friends as just plain old bluster- I didn't take it seriously for a minute, and I doubt many other people did, either.

I do understand your feelings, though.

LP 28 Oct 2012 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoode (Post 579388)
So while we're on the subject: maybe a softer vocal delivery might help these days? It's a criticism if you like, but it's constructive! I think we all want Meat to come off well at these events.

Thoroughly agree with this notion but I just don't think he has it within him. I don't know if its a hearing problem, physical fatigue or something psychological.

All this bending over and grabbing big notes right from the off - he didn't used to try that. He had control, subtlety and the ability to sing like an angel.
I'm sad. Sad for me as a fan. Sad for Meat and his legacy.

Don't care about the politics.

There are people here who will get cross for what I've said and there are people here who write a better argument than me but I'm bored of seeing those same names cropping up always defending his vocals. Its not all about the performance, its about that voice that grabbed us all by the heart and took us to another planet.

Luke

CarylB 28 Oct 2012 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror (Post 579403)
I saw his telling people to argue with their friends as just plain old bluster- I didn't take it seriously for a minute, and I doubt many other people did, either.

So do I. It was entirely congruent with what I have seen at this kind of rally in the USA

BostonAngel 28 Oct 2012 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkS (Post 579402)
I make my music listening decision based upon the music, not the person singing it. If you are making music decisions based on politics than you are missing out on a lot of good music.

Like I said earlier, people need to get a grip and chill, and if Meat has alienated anyone as a fan, then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Meat has made his political decision and a bunch of bitching and moaning from a few fans won't change his mind. Nor should his endorsement change your mind if its already made up

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I don't make all of my music choices based on politics or character. Many bands I listen to simply because I like what I hear. Ask me about where they were born, their birtdate, who their current wife or girlfriend is, I couldn't tell you. With Meat is was different. I was a fan of both the man and his music. As I said as a fan of Meat Loaf it was all tied together. I had admired the man since Bat Out Of Hell came out. As human beings, when we are disillusioned by someone it is natural to feel disappointed & be upset. can get over it? This endorsement goes beyond politics. For many fans, it has called into question Meat's character, which is what made them pay attention to Meat in the first place. Am I the only one of his true, die-hard fans that feels this way. Absolutely not.

CarylB 28 Oct 2012 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by LP (Post 579404)
There are people here who will get cross for what I've said and there are people here who write a better argument than me but I'm bored of seeing those same names cropping up always defending his vocals. Its not all about the performance, its about that voice that grabbed us all by the heart and took us to another planet.

Not cross .. although I think it's disappointing that this thread seems to be heading now to Meat's vocals, the voice has gone etc

I don't think I've seen anyone saying the vocals at the rally were good. I am one of the "same names cropping up always defending his vocals", and I have not said they were good. I have said that unfortunately he did this on the day he needs to rest his voice now. He is 65 and needs that rest. The two songs they did were not very good vocally, but not bad in my view. After those though, and then rallying the crowd, you could tell his voice was worn to hoarseness. This I say because I believe it to be true. It doesn't make the vocals great .. I say it because it explains why I believe this performance was not indicative of what Meat achieves on stage consistently still.


Caryl

MarkS 28 Oct 2012 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by BostonAngel (Post 579407)

I don't make all of my music choices based on politics or character. Many bands I listen to simply because I like what I hear. Ask me about where they were born, their birtdate, who their current wife or girlfriend is, I couldn't tell you. With Meat is was different. I was a fan of both the man and his music. As I said as a fan of Meat Loaf it was all tied together. I had admired the man since Bat Out Of Hell came out. As human beings, when we are disillusioned by someone it is natural to feel disappointed & be upset. can get over it? This endorsement goes beyond politics. For many fans, it has called into question Meat's character, which is what made them pay attention to Meat in the first place. Am I the only one of his true, die-hard fans that feels this way. Absolutely not.

How the hell does endorsing a republican over a democrat, which is basically the same damn thing anyway, call Meat's character in question. Yea, he got excited and was a bit over the top, but you are reading way to much into a political endorsement.

With this election, bottom line, we are screwed either way. And if you don't believe me, just wait till Obamacare fully kicks in an see how that works out for you.

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Sarge 28 Oct 2012 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by BostonAngel (Post 579407)
I was a fan of both the man and his music. As I said as a fan of Meat Loaf it was all tied together. I had admired the man since Bat Out Of Hell came out.

For a long time, fans who dared to say that they were more interested in the music than in the man have been heavily criticized and accused of not being "true fans". They were labelled "haters" and "enemies". If you didn't unconditionally support everything Meat Loaf said or did, whether it was related to his music or not, you had to prepare to take flak. Now we're told to separate the music from the man. Puzzling.

TheDoode 28 Oct 2012 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarylB (Post 579408)
He is 65 and needs that rest. The two songs they did were not very good vocally, but not bad in my view.

I'm sorry Caryl but I can't agree. If it's age related, it's certainly not the case with many of Meat's contemporaries of the same age (sammy hagar, alice cooper, even david lee roth is still just about recognisable). And as for the latter, and I'm saying this with no pleasure whatsoever, it was a bad vocal. Awful, in fact. And I'm not saying that to hate on Meat Loaf, or to make him 'feel bad', but to these ears it's true, and it's something I hope Meat Loaf can get some help with.

AndrewG 28 Oct 2012 21:52

Did anyone else think it was strange he performed "Break It" at the rally? It's probably the worst Steinman song I think he has performed. :-(
I think it would have been a bit more fun had he done the usual stuff maybe Bat and both Frying Pan. Maybe not so much of a political statement but certainly more entertaining and probably a bit easier for him vocally to get right and ultimately would have made more of an impression.

CarylB 28 Oct 2012 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by BostonAngel (Post 579407)
For many fans, it has called into question Meat's character, which is what made them pay attention to Meat in the first place. Am I the only one of his true, die-hard fans that feels this way. Absolutely not.

Sorry, but again, really? I would have put money on most people paying Meat attention in the first place to hearing him sing. I know I did, and I really don't believe I'm in a minority there. I'd also think that a large part, arguably the majority, of those who buy the albums and go to the shows, go for the performance, and many have only a sketchy idea of his character.

Yes, I like the man, I respect him, but contrary to what some here believe, I have never put him on a pedestal, nor expected him to always do as I would want. He's human and I give him permission to be that, to make choices I might not make, to have interests and passions I don't have, and to sometimes make mistakes or even disappoint me. That's what people do. People to me are like a jigsaw, and I don't try and change a piece of that any more than I would try and change a piece of The Haywain .. I simply enjoy the whole picture for the pleasure it gives me. And even if they disappoint me sometimes, it doesn't change who they are as a whole. I have followed Meat and seen how he behaves for long enough to know that those qualities I admire and like he has in good measure still. So I still like him as a person, and will still enjoy any interaction I have with him. And nothing changes the music or the performance for me, nor the passion in his delivery, his energy on stage, his determination to give me the best show he can.

Caryl

CarylB 28 Oct 2012 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoode (Post 579415)
I'm sorry Caryl but I can't agree. If it's age related, it's certainly not the case with many of Meat's contemporaries of the same age (sammy hagar, alice cooper, even david lee roth is still just about recognisable).

Then I'll say at 65 MEAT needs that vocal rest between shows. He is not Sammy Hagar, Alice Cooper etc .. and his voice is different, as is he. And when he gets the rest he needs at 65, his vocals are good.

It gives me no pleasure to say the vocals at the rally were not good. I simply understand why, and know they are not indicative of his performances on stage on tour.


Caryl

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 22:08

:twisted: [mod hat]

In all fairness, I think there's quite enough being debated on this thread without adding the general state of Meat's singing voice these days to the mix.

OK, the performance in question is somewhat relevant to the thread, but can we please confine discussion of his voice to the performance at the rally.

I do not agree with everything said on the thread, but i've found it an interesting exchange of ideas and points of view.
I wouldn't like to see the thread locked because it turns into an off topic battle about Meat's singing abilities.


[/mod hat]

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarge (Post 579411)
For a long time, fans who dared to say that they were more interested in the music than in the man have been heavily criticized and accused of not being "true fans". They were labelled "haters" and "enemies". If you didn't unconditionally support everything Meat Loaf said or did, whether it was related to his music or not, you had to prepare to take flak. Now we're told to separate the music from the man. Puzzling.

:twisted: As I said earlier in the thread, I was told by a member recently that my world was too full of Meat Loaf, yet this fan went bat shit becuase Meat endorced Romney. I don't care about Meat's politics.
So which of us in more invested in Meat as a person?

So people who love Meat as a man now say just care about him muic, and the people who just care for him as an artist now voice concern about his personal political views.
It's a two way street.

It's a mad mad world :wtf:

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoode (Post 579422)
Yeah... except that it's not really off topic at all, since this thread covers the event and Meat Loaf did perform there. Suggest splitting the thread rather than locking it, if you feel the need to do so.

:twisted: Read my post again.
The performance in question is on topic. Comments on the state of Meat's voice these days in general aren't.

As long as convo sticks to the rally (including that one performance) there shouldn't be a need to lock or split.

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 22:21

:twisted: For the record, and posts arguing the general state of Meat's voice will be deleted without prior notice.

I'd like to keep this open.

Right, time for food :mrgreen:

robgomm 28 Oct 2012 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoode (Post 579415)
I'm sorry Caryl but I can't agree. If it's age related, it's certainly not the case with many of Meat's contemporaries of the same age (sammy hagar, alice cooper, even david lee roth is still just about recognisable). And as for the latter, and I'm saying this with no pleasure whatsoever, it was a bad vocal. Awful, in fact. And I'm not saying that to hate on Meat Loaf, or to make him 'feel bad', but to these ears it's true, and it's something I hope Meat Loaf can get some help with.

Sorry but that is a really really poor point. You can't compare Meat with other artist of his age for obvious reasons. The most obvious reason is that I don't think there is any other artist out there that sings songs as hard on the voice as Meat Loaf.

I will tell you I am a good singer, i have a good range, and I can sing pretty much any artists songs, and i can tell you that whereas i can sing entire albums from other artists and bands, it's a struggle to get through Meat Loaf albums! He has undoubtedly the hardest songs to sing, and he's been doing it for 40+ years ffs! Of course his voice will never be the same as it was, he's had 3+ surgeries on it for a start, done so many back to back shows when he was advised that with these types of songs that are so hard he would damage his voice doing back to back shows, but he needed to capitalise on his success at the time and that's what the record companies scheduled him to do.

But when he's rested, and when he's well prepared and warmed up, he can still blow other singers out of the water. He can still hit notes others can't. Just look at Bat on the DVD. The hardest notes for him to still hit from any of his songs are the high C's at the end and he still can. Even Russell Watson can't hit them as i remember from when he sung with Meat that time.

Meat is 65, yet still charges around the stage like he's 35, doing incredibly hard song after incredibly hard song. After a show he has literally nothing left, and yet you really think he should be able to do a show the next day as well just as well as the night before?

Paul Richardson 28 Oct 2012 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarylB (Post 579420)
Cannot agree with that. How many live shows have you been to on the last and current tour?

I'll try again since my original response to your question was first edited and then deleted ... :twisted:

Trying to stay ON topic, Meat's performance at the rally was far from his best, and while you may have gone to many more shows than I recently, it doesn't mean my opinion is necessarily wrong !

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 22:33

:twisted: And i'm locking this till i've had my did dins.

The Flying Mouse 28 Oct 2012 22:57

:twisted: OK, the burning issue first.
I had southern fried chicken, it was very nice, thank you :mrgreen:
(I can't help thinking this post would have got more likes if I had put some bacon into the mix :bleh: )

Right.
It might be "ignorant" not to consider the performance in wider context, but we know what will happen. It'll turn into a debate on weather Meat can still sing or not. Rows will start over it, posts will be reported, edit will follow edit, and the post will lose it's meaning and end up locked.

Like it or not, we know that's what's going to end up happening.

That's why i've said to discuss the performance at hand (as well as the issue of Meat's endocement of Romney.

This thread has got debate enough for us all without adding "has Meat still got it" into the mix.

I'm going to try and clean the thread up a little to bring things back to the discussion at hand.

No, it's not perfect, and I don't want to surpress people's oppinions, but it's the best option I can see to keep this thread on track and open.

This is a big issue that obviously means a lot to the folks posting here, and i'd like everyone to be able to have their say.

CarylB 28 Oct 2012 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Richardson (Post 579431)
.... ON topic, Meat's performance at the rally was far from his best

Which I have also said more than once. That I understand why doesn't make it a better performance .. simply that I do understand, and treat it as a single event

Evil Ernie 29 Oct 2012 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse (Post 579436)
It might be "ignorant" not to consider the performance in wider context, but we know what will happen. It'll turn into a debate on weather Meat can still sing or not. Rows will start over it, posts will be reported, edit will follow edit, and the post will lose it's meaning and end up locked.

TBH that's what I was most concerned about.

We KNOW he can do better. His pipes may not be what they used to be, but with proper warm ups (and properly mixed with effects and possibly slight auto-tune) he can do a good performance.

It's just the fact that he could have NOT done it or at the very least keep it to low notes. He tried to belt it out and it sort of made him look foolish. It's like the equivalent of me doing an impromptu performance with an untuned guitar, That's why I made the comment about losing his wits, because as a professional performer he should know better.

I think that it's counter productive to just brush it off. I may critique the big guy, but I love him nonetheless.

Evil Ernie 29 Oct 2012 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarge (Post 579411)
For a long time, fans who dared to say that they were more interested in the music than in the man have been heavily criticized and accused of not being "true fans". They were labelled "haters" and "enemies". If you didn't unconditionally support everything Meat Loaf said or did, whether it was related to his music or not, you had to prepare to take flak. Now we're told to separate the music from the man. Puzzling.

Ha. Amen Brother.

I've always tried to separate the man(or woman)from the music or any other sort of art that they do. Especially these days when you know EVERYTHING that a celebrity does because of the internet...

LuuuuvMeat 29 Oct 2012 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkS (Post 579409)
How the hell does endorsing a republican over a democrat, which is basically the same damn thing anyway, call Meat's character in question.


Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner



Didn't we already go over this earlier in the thread?

BostonAngel 29 Oct 2012 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuuuuvMeat (Post 579451)
Didn't we already go over this earlier in the thread?

Over and over and over and over and over again. it's been gone over multiple times by several people, myself included. :roll:

anotherday 29 Oct 2012 05:31

Brain....HURTS....OWW....UGH!

Paul Richardson 29 Oct 2012 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarylB (Post 579440)
Which I have also said more than once. That I understand why doesn't make it a better performance .. simply that I do understand, and treat it as a single event

Well, understand this - I responded properly to your original post but it was deleted - so I can only make an edited answer...:twisted:

TheDoode 29 Oct 2012 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by robgomm (Post 579429)
Sorry but that is a really really poor point. You can't compare Meat with other artist of his age for obvious reasons. The most obvious reason is that I don't think there is any other artist out there that sings songs as hard on the voice as Meat Loaf.

I will tell you I am a good singer, i have a good range, and I can sing pretty much any artists songs, and i can tell you that whereas i can sing entire albums from other artists and bands, it's a struggle to get through Meat Loaf albums! He has undoubtedly the hardest songs to sing, and he's been doing it for 40+ years ffs! Of course his voice will never be the same as it was, he's had 3+ surgeries on it for a start, done so many back to back shows when he was advised that with these types of songs that are so hard he would damage his voice doing back to back shows, but he needed to capitalise on his success at the time and that's what the record companies scheduled him to do.

But when he's rested, and when he's well prepared and warmed up, he can still blow other singers out of the water. He can still hit notes others can't. Just look at Bat on the DVD. The hardest notes for him to still hit from any of his songs are the high C's at the end and he still can. Even Russell Watson can't hit them as i remember from when he sung with Meat that time.

Meat is 65, yet still charges around the stage like he's 35, doing incredibly hard song after incredibly hard song. After a show he has literally nothing left, and yet you really think he should be able to do a show the next day as well just as well as the night before?

Oh I see, it's because Meat Loaf songs are 'harder to sing' than any other singer's songs. :roll: See, now I might think that THAT is delusional (along with the rest of the post)... but it doesn't mean I'm going to attack YOU over it (like you have done here, to me, in the post above). If you can't stay civil, all discussion's off.

I'll keep my own comments to the Romney performance in this thread, and make sure I don't prick my foot on the eggshells while I'm at it.

R. 29 Oct 2012 08:16

I think this thread is done.


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