What being a fan means to me...
 

All,

this is a fantastic site, and I love it here. But one thing that has constantly irritated me for years is comments about "sucking up", "being a TRUE fan", "not being allowed a negative opinion". I don't do "personal attack" type posts, but I got mad as hell reading some of the comments on here recently, and so to get it off my chest without having to hurl something, I decided to write down how I see myself as a fan.

I suspect this is different for everyone, so you can agree or not, but this is my definition of what being a fan means to me.


YES - it means that I am positively disposed to whatever Meat does. I look forward with optimism to any new projects announced, and have faith that he will throw his whole heart and soul into it, even (perhaps especially) when it is radically different to what has been done before.

NO - this does not necessarily mean I end up loving or even necessarily liking every single thing that he does, although his batting average is pretty damn high so far!

YES - I love this site, and I love the fact that Meat logs on for direct interaction with people here

NO - it means that if I don't like something he has done, I will not come here and bash it, and will always try to find something positive to say, because to do otherwise...

1. Would be disrespectful / hurtfull to Meat
2. Would be disrespectful to other Meat fans
3. Would be a very strange concept to come on a fan site and post savagely critical remarks
4. May lead to Meat not coming here any more


YES - there are lots of other artists I like but don't particularly consider myself to be a fan of, because I do not feel as strongly about them as I do about Meat Loaf.


NO - I don't believe in "true fans", "proper fans", or degrees of "fan-ness". You are a fan or you are not as far as I am concerned. If you are not a fan, you merely like the artist. This still leaves plenty of room for varying degrees of how much you like an artist or their output. But for me, being a fan means feeling very strongly positive about someone and their output in general, and all the other things I have written above.


YES - I feel much better now after my little essay thank you, but now I need a lie down :lol:

Praise without constructive criticism is useless.

if you don't like the buffeting many experience from fans... you should consider the dyson bladeless air multiplier (fan) :-P

(only buffeting) messing even ;)

Not at all in my book. I don't believe in finding something critical to say about everything or that nothing is perfect. Praise where praise is due can be enormously motivational and uplifting. If something deserves 10 out of 10, then give it 10 out of 10 is my view.

True, but if something is only 9 out of 10, then explain why. If something is dogshit, then explain why.

Agreed, but even when explaining why you believe something to be dogshit, there are (as you say) constructive, helpful, well meaning ways of saying it, and flaming.

However, per my original point, I still don't think a fan site of the artist you are a fan of is the right place to explain in detail why you believe their latest output to be dogshit, especially if the artist themselves are regular visitors.

To me, fans, by definition, would not explain in detail to the person they are a fan of, how much like dogshit what they have done is.

Well...I pretty much read all of it somewhere before...numerous times...

Except for the Dyson fan part...does he do fans as well as vacuum cleaners?

Absolutely. So, why would it be wrong for a "fan" to offer an opinion that was less than stellar, provided it was presented in a respectful, constructive way?

This seems to contradict your first paragraph. As a fan, isn't it better to explain why you don't like something, rather than just say that you don't? (And by this, I don't mean pronounce it "dogshit") I would think the artist would appreciate honest (again, respectful, constructive) feedback. Otherwise, I think it's a bit like the Emperor's New Clothes. Personally, I'd want someone to tell me if my ass was hanging out. ;)

(Please keep in mind I'm speaking in general terms and also playing a bit of the Devil's Advocate)

What being a fan means to me
 

I have been a fan of meat loaf all of my life and been a member of his fan club is fantastic. i love to chat and make new friends. i just wish some of the other members of the fan club would give me a chance all iam doing is saying hello and been friendly iam sorry if that upsets anyone i would be greatfull if everyone could give me a chance on here i know i have made a lot of mistakes and iam sorry ok all iam asking is please give me a chance and i hope i can slowly start to build up some new friendships with everyone on here

Chance for what? What is it that you're looking for and keep on apologizing for?

I think people here explain very clearly what they don't like and why...but the problem might be that recipient of this criticism isn't very happy to hear it...I think most of us already know it...

I don't know how artists feel...unfortunately, I don't have any special talents...so it's hard to say if they are hurt first and then realize that it's constructive criticism...or is it that because they are such an artistic and dramatic souls that they just get hurt by any kind of criticism, even if it comes from their peers...

Hi Mszee when i send friendship requests out to people all iam doing is saying hello and would they like to chat and become friends with another meat loaf fan. i just want people to give me a chance to become friends with other members. all iam looking for is to try and build up friendships with members of the fan club. what iam saying sorry for is to all the members that have gone to the mods on here iam sorry if i have upset anyone all iam trying to do is build up some new friendships on here and thats all iam trying to do

I respectfully disagree. For instance, I praise my kids when they do well.....it would serve no benefit to constructively criticize if they've achieved their goal. You got a 98% but if you studied harder you could have gotten 100%. That would borderline obsessive parenting and "pushing" too hard IMO.

Suzieq

OK...Lisa...I will try to explain this to you...here is a person up above...his name is PanicLord.

He has spent some time thinking about what it means to him to be a Meat Loaf fan what he thinks fans should or shouldn't do, and so on...we all join into the discussion...some agree...some disagree...but we talk about what PanicLord would have liked us to talk about...namely...what it means to each one of us to be a fan of Meat Loaf...so we talk and talk about that...

How about joining into the discussion of what we really discussing? Expressing your feelings and thoughts...discuss, joke, have fun...friends are not acquired by sending friends requests...friends are acquired by being on the same page.

I am not trying to upset you or criticize you...I am just trying to help you understand how to make friends here and not to annoy people with the same ole same ole posts and nobody understands...

(Did I just loose my shit or what????)

I think the problem is that although constructive feedback is helpful, and I'm sure Meat (who is his own harshest critic) is open to this, as soon as some people use the phrase "constructive criticism" it becomes more criticism than feedback, and often takes over, so praise for what has gone well is lost.

Saying for eg that something "sucks" tends to hit the feelings hard .. so however "constructive" what follows may be, it's hard for the one on the receiving end to really hear it. And of course, often what follows a bald statement like that isn't constructive (ie helping to build from strengths in performance) but just concentrates on a list of shortcomings.

And as you say Suzie, so often negative feedback concentrates on a small part of overall performance and far less on all that was good. When I go to one of Meat's concerts does he miss the occasional note? Probably. Does he miss the occasional cue? I expect so. But what I notice is all the wonderful stuff that goes so very well, and that is always for me what I remember and what I comment on.

I do understand where PanicLord is coming from, and I sing from pretty much the same choir sheet :-) But I sense that this will follow the course it usually does when someone opens this debate ..

Caryl

probably, but its been somewhere its never been to before, before it goes to where it might end up... its gone to bladeless fan technology now :D :hic:

Yeah...that's what I said as well...we had numerous debates like these and unless the fire has just gone out from this topic cause it's so old...it always ends in some kind of brawl...

@ Lisa

Well you haven't upset me :-) You always post positively about Meat's work and that's nice to see. No need to apologise, just take it gentle ;)

Caryl

Hi mszee thanks for your oppinons. iam going to take on board what you have said and i know i can change my ways of doing things on here. you havent upset me i guess i just need someone to point out to me how things work on here.

hi caryl i just want to say thanks for your message it means a lot to me to know i have got one good friend on here

Oh, I hear you. I'm quite sure there is a large emotional element involved. As I said, it depends on how it's presented. Perhaps "criticism" is the wrong word.

I agree with the OP that there is some difference between liking an artist and being a "fan", which, we all know, is short for fanatic. ;) I consider myself a fan (of any artist) if I have been deeply affected by their art, and like (if not love) more of it than not, and seek it out; if I count some of their songs/albums/performances among my favorite things. Using this criteria, for the record, I consider myself a Meat Loaf fan, and have been since I swiped my older brother's copy of Bat I when I was about 15 years old. (I won't say exactly how long ago that was :lol:)

Now, I think, of course, that part of the "job" of being a fan (of anyone/ anything) is to be a bit of a cheerleader, and that just comes naturally. But, I don't think it makes me any less of a fan if I express a negative opinion now and then. Think of a Randy Jackson-on-Idol-type, "Dude, that wasn't your best performance..." It doesn't mean I love them any less. ;)

Again, I'm not referring to Meat or anything really specifically, just speaking of fandom in general.

I don't even know anymore what being a fan is...

I honestly thought being a fan is to buy most of the records artist came up with and go occasionally to their concerts...

Little did I know, eh?

being a fan to me means that i support meat in everything he does, whether i like it or not, and I even try to promote meats work to my friends, hell, i even sing his songs and do my own tribute show at various events around the state for charities when i can be arsed. I have never seen meat live, but i find other ways of supporting him. Isn't that what matters?

I'm going to really think about this one before posting however, a quick look up and three references will take a literal definition of fan (short for fanatic) as: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion (Merriam Webster online) OR Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal or with an obsessive enthusiasm for a pastime or hobby (Wiki) OR a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics (Dictionary.com).

I see a common word here: uncritical

So I ask my own self, am I a fan by literal definition...the short answer is yes. I beat to a similar drum as PanicLord but I have slightly different parameters. I will gather those parameters and post a longer form once I have them organized a bit.

Suzieq

I have been a fan of Meat's for over 30 years. I see being a fan as supporting him, buying his albums and going to concerts when I can. Yeah he is not perfect and does occasionally miss a note or forget the words at his shows, but I don't notice any of these things. I get caught up in the moment and just enjoy the experience of being at a Meat Loaf concert. I hate people who say we are arse kissers or sucking up just because we don't criticise him or find fault with every little thing he does. If you don't like a concert, fine. You can't please everyone all the time, but there is a way to say that you didn't like it and why without being rude. Like Caryl said, just saying it sucks is both abrasive and disrespectful. Meat has feelings, and is his own harshest critic and anything constructive he takes on board. Like a few others have said, there are other artists that I like, but they are not in the same league as Meat is. That magnificent voice of his had me hooked right from the very start and I don't think there is any other singer like him or ever will be.

Carole

Of course, supporting the artist in whatever way you can or is right for you is what matters. ;) I don't think there is any checklist to pass to be considered a fan.


I know you didn't write these definitions, but I nonetheless disagree with the notion that to be a fan (of anyone/anything) you have to be totally uncritical. Take away the emotional component of the "relationship" between artist and fan (and I say this purely from the fan perspective, obviously), and bottom line, you are a consumer. The artist is selling a product. In that aspect, I'm not going to buy a product I don't like, even if that product is a record by my favorite artist. Of course, if the artist is my favorite, the chances of my disliking one of their records so much that I wouldn't buy it are small. I just don't feel that I'm obligated to buy it (or say that I like it) or turn in my fan membership card. ;)

This conversation is going to be an

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ircase.svg.png

I am a Meat Loaf fan, have been since a young kid, I am now almost 31 so that is a long time, maybe not as long as others, but a long time. But this does not make me a bigger or less a fan of Meat than someone who became a fan last week, or last month or last year. I like Meat for his music, for his enthusiasm he has for his work, he gives it his all, sometimes it is not great, sometimes it is outstanding. What he does will not please everyone, but that is tough shit really, because he has got an awful lot of fans to impress with his work, and not everyone is going to like what he does. I think this is coming down to his recent piece of work, and who is going to like it, and who is not because of Meat's, I won't say modern approach, I will say different. People do have their opinions, but I think they do need to remember, if you are going to post any negative comments, not to cross the line, because at the end of the day, this is a Meat Loaf fan site, with many many Meat fans, who will defend the guy, and also it's Meat's site, he comes on here quite often. I know he knows he is going to face criticism with anything he does , but he has feelings too, and he works damn hard to try and please not just his fans, not just his label, his family or friends, but also himself. :D

Agreed, and saying Dude that wasn't your best performance certainly doesn't mean someone cares any less .. in fact it demonstrates quite a senstive level of care imo .. and paves the way for what is to come .. as long as that isn't a long list of failings delivered abrasively without any useful suggestions for what would improve it of course ;)

I guess for me being a fan means you care for the whole enchilada .. so includes both the performance and the person who gives it, and that means caring about their feelings (and even when we don't care for people, if we want what we say to do anything more than put them on the defensive, or have them simply dismiss what we say, then we need to find a way of telling them why something wasn't acceptable or up to the standard we expected so that it doesn't immediately evoke that kind of response).

To say for eg that a video doesn't really appeal to you although you can see the audience it's aiming at, but that you'd have preferred something more this or that is expressing your view in a way that is reasonable and unlikely to result in a negative reaction .. describing how the person looks in colourful or ridiculing terms that amuse you isn't helpful imo. It's criticism, but there's nothing very constructive about it ;) And if someone has invested time, effort and money in producing something, to suggest they throw it away and start again because you don't like it would be thoughtless, bordering on the arrogant or daft imo. For constructive feedback (or even criticism) to be any use at all it must offer something that is feasibly actionable, as well as delivered in words that are chosen with care so as not to hurt the person's feelings. And many fans simply don't have the performance skills to be able to offer the constructing end of the sandwich. I'm one of those, so I don't attempt to offer "constructive criticism". Doesn't mean I'm as "ass-kisser" or "sucking up" .. I can't offer credible advice to someone who has so much more more experience and expertise than I, but I can say what I enjoyed and why.

So true. Sometimes the things I see written seem to me much more about the disappointed feelings of the person delivering them. Such criticism is rarely, if ever, constructive. And bottom line, for me being a fan of someone means I would not want to hurt that person, and if I was angry or disappointed by something they did I would keep my fingers off a keyboard until I could be constructive.

Caryl

I’ve not been a member here all that long but this is a question that has been asked several times on other forums that I am a member of and each time it has made me stop and thing about what it means to be a fan. As a teenager it meant that I HAD to enjoy every single piece of work an actor/singer did but as I got older my thoughts on the matter changed.

- It’s okay not to like everything Meat does and it’s okay to have an opinion on his work but to me being a fan is to accept that he is human, he can’t be perfect all the time and that he has feelings. No one likes to have their work ripped apart and I imagine it’s quite upsetting if that criticism is coming from someone that calls themselves a fan. There’s nothing wrong with a little bit of constructive criticism, but it has to be written very carefully as things can easily be taken the wrong way. If I write something negative, I will always find something positive to say as well.

- Being a fan means that I look forward to each new project and that I consider each contribution on its own merits. Just because I don’t like one song on an album, or a particular album, doesn’t change my overall feelings about an artist.

- Just because I’m a fan of Meat Loaf doesn’t mean that he is the only artist I like. In fact Meat is one of two artists that I feel strongly about.

Your cubicle at work????

Nah, that's his pay scale lol

Having just put down the phone after talking to my boss about this years payrise ... there's no lol-ing going on here :p

See... I was right

being a meat loaf fan to me means? emmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!
f**k its st.patricks day!! 13 pints and counting:D

If you can still count after 13 pints, then either you have a stronger constitution than I do, or you actually lost count at the 2-pint mark and have only had 1 since.

Dave

now that has got me thinking? and thinking hurts!!
no!! wait, the room im in is blue, but should be green? 13 pints so:D

It'll be green quite soon ...

not at all!! its only half time

I think it's possible to criticise something and make it useful, but not all praise is intended to be useful. I think some people give praise because they like to give credit where credit is due in the hope it will inspire more provocative and stimulating work.

Why post constructive criticism of an album that has already been recorded? Do you think Meat will go back and change it for you? Do you have some sort of obligation to buy it if you don't like it? Or could you just not buy it, say you don't like it and won't buy it if you feel the need to do so, and let others enjoy it without having to sift through all your negativity on what is after all supposed to be a fan club site?

This is what I don't get...why call somebody's opinion necessarily criticism?

This is a forum (please read the definition of forum)...We are all here because we're fans...and we want to talk to people who are fans as well...we want to exchange the opinions...good or bad...

Honestly...if I had to read here day in and day out...Thank you, Meat...I don't know if it would be worth coming.

Lucky me...I LOVE new video and it started the fire under me...so it's all good...

BUT...I am not less a fan because I don't own every single that came out. I am not less a fan if I don't like every single thing.

I AM a fan...just come with me to any Meat's concert and see me going into complete and utter rapture...I have yet to take a good picture or notice a problem during the concert...or be able to recreate a single set list...cause I am in rapture...

Debates are good, forums are good...let's just respect each other and Meat...

If I spend my hard earned money on a Meat Loaf product then surely I am entitled to give my opinion on it?

Give it a couple of months and they will disappear from whence they came. Until the next tour anyway! :roll:

I know...woodwork has opened up....

Of course! But I'm entitled to my opinion of French cuisine too - I don't like it. Yet I don't feel the need to go in to French restaurants, walk up to diners and tell them that they're eating crap.

Probably a poor analogy. Like I said, I get people coming here to weigh in on the single and say 'I don't like it because of a. b. and c.' It's the people who think they should have some sort of say in Meat's work and career direction who I think are overstepping the mark by a wide margin. Like a buffet, take what you want and leave the rest. But don't tell the chef how to do his job.

I think that's an excellent analogy .. :-) I'd also add that it's a bit bizarre when people merely scan the menu, or just taste the hors d'oeuvres before deciding the entire meal is terrible and a sell-out by the chef ;)

And a big difference between saying you don't like the food or style of cuisine because it's perhaps too rich or possibly not spicy enough .. that's reasonable. Denouncing it to all the other customers as crap or garbage is likely to get you thrown out of the restaurant and not allowed back ;)

Caryl

Yup - and rightly so!

it doesnt suck when youre a fan

At no point have I claimed Meat's new album to be crap or garbage. In fact I'm pretty sure my comment was that Los Angeloser does nothing for me but I'm going to wait until I've heard the album before I make any judgement on it.

I don't like french cuisine so I don't go to a french restaurant. I do however like pizza. If I happen to eat in Pizza Hut and they've missed the spicy pork off my meat feast then I will complain.

Ditto.

Indeed.

Except I don't go to Pizza Hut anyway 'cos one pizza would blow my salt ration for at least 2 days!

But it's worth it. Stuffed crust meat feast! :drool:

Fair enough, I get where you're coming from. But then again, you didn't order this slice of Meat Loaf, or get to specify what's included. It's there, and it's self serve. ;)

I wasn't specifically talking in reference to your posts. Just those who feel they have a right to 'advise' Meat Loaf on how to be who he is.

Are you talking about poor White of High? The poor dude is Hungarian with broken English who is stuck in time...I feel for him cause he struggles with his thoughts even more than he struggles with English....

I agree key word being " constructive" I do listen when it is really constructive and not just BS drivel.

And Meat, I've only ever seen you react against criticism that has nothing constructive in it, but is highly judgemental, often rude or innacurate, and attacks you rather than comments on performance. If people have nothing usefully constructive to say it's better they say nothing imo.

Caryl

Thanks everyone for posting on my little ranting thread ;) I feel much better now, and have enjoyed reading the responses on this one - most interesting!

I think that we're looking at this all wrong. For me there is not a bad Meat Loaf Album because on every Album there is a song (at least one) that I have an emotional connection with. That is the amazing thing about Meat's music. He gets into your core and tells you something that you didn't already know, he showed me places within me that I'd never been. When I was 8 BOH2 came out and I was mezmerised. I loved WTTN and the live album that came after, but I was skeptical about new material because I wasn't sure if I could form those emotional connections, but there are so many songs on CHSIB which resonate with me and even BOH3 (which I wish had been done with Steinman) there are brilliant performances 'In the Land of the Pigs' is awesome and is the most over the top Meat track ever. Meat has given me something very special and I hope one day I can thank him properly, as for critism and fans, we should be able to say what we think, Meat does this for us, but the wording should be not, 'that wasn't very good' or 'I loved that', it should be, 'Meat, that altered me becasue...' or 'I didn't feel an emotion connection to this track because...' I think that is critical and constructive.

I think being a fan is about supporting, respecing and apperciating somebody for what they are weither you love it or not if you dont be honest and say why but not by being cruel. insensitive or without truelly giving it a fair chance, but most of all its about believing someone and trusting them to deliver, which for me meat has always done I see in him what is see in no other artist which makes him unique to me ok my 2cent done

wow, really poor punctuation on my part sorry:oops:

What being a fan means to me... Well i'm just a listening fan now, used to be a big, big fan ( when I used to be well, it meant everything to me)but other things in life are more important to me at the moment, I'm a family guy with a lovely 8 month old daughter.

I will buy the new album or cd, but I know nothing can replace his earlier stuff he did with steinman and i will always love it... the new stuff I'm in two minds.. whether the whole album is going to be a hit or shit.

Meats a credit to music history. cheers meat!!!

Being a fan to me is that I like Meat very, very much. I will always love what he does. Its like unconditional love to me. I may not like something but I will always love it no matter what. I can say I am not crazy about that song but I will still play it because it is something Meat did. Just like with your child you might not like some of things he or she is doing but you still love your child very much. That is how I see it. I will always be a fan of Meat Loaf. No matter what he does, right or wrong, I will still be there. :D

In response to the original poster, how does this work then? I consider myself a fan because I own every one of his albums on CD and LP, with the exception of "The very best of Meat Loaf" because that was never released on LP, "Couldn’t have said it better" because I haven't been able to find it, and "The monster is loose" because I wasn't able to enjoy that album. My collection is quite extensive, with singles and promo releases as well, souvenir programs and concert posters, one from Wembley Arena that covers half of my wall. I've spent what must be now over a thousand dollars at least collecting all of these items but I didn't like "The monster is loose" and I would be prepared to argue with anyone about why I didn't enjoy it for months if I could. But I can't and I won't. So what does that make me?

I don’t want to hurt anyone or cause trouble, although I try to be upfront and I am no longer as blunt as I used to be, but the reason I write this post is to seek clarification from the rest of you as to where you think I might stand.

Best,
Rockfenris2005

http://www.lordsteinman.webs.com/lpcollection.jpg

That's an impressive collection rockfenris2005 :-)

I went through an extremely bad time emotionally when my Father passed away, and Meat helped me get through it. For that alone I can't thank him enough, and will always be extremely grateful. I will always love and support Meat, no matter what.

Each of us is different ... even though I enjoy all of Meat's CDs, there are some that I like more than others. The same thing with certain songs. But, more importantly, for me, being a fan means having respect .... I respect Meat (as an artist and person with feelings), and would never say anything that would hurt or upset him. I respect him too much for that.

Thanks :-)
Vicki

Great collection!
I am a huge Meat Loaf fan. I recall being about five years old and my uncle bought the bat album. He brought it to our house and been a fan ever since. We cranked up the volume as far as it could go and, it just sounded so powerful and moving. I couldn't wait to get my hands on the cd. So, when he wasn't looking I kind of borrowed the album and have yet to give it back, but, I am sure he won't miss it :lol:
Being a fan brings you much joy. Its magical when I hear Meat sing a Jim Steinman song. I like all of the other artists he's worked with too over the years.
You also get to meet some pretty cool people along the way being a fan, so thats always a plus.
So, thanks Meat Loaf youv'e brought a lot of happiness through your music to a lot of people.
:D

I REALLY do not have a clue of what you mean when you say...where you stand...Australian ain't like American...

I guess we hope you grew up a bit???

Hi Rockfenris - great collection and pic! Well, as per my op, what I wrote was only my own definition of being a fan and how it applies to me. If what you wrote is your definition of being a fan, then fair enough.

Very well put Vicki. That's how I feel too. I have all his albums, but I like some more than others and same with all his songs. I have my utmost favourites, and some I don't like quite so much as others. And I have the utmost respect for Meat both as an artist and a person as well and would never want to upset or hurt him. And I will always love him and support him too.

Carole

I like your layout of your collection. However, clarification from a group of others is not for us to define. It's your own interpretation of how you view yourself as a fan be it monetarily invested, emotionally swept, or musically directed (et al other reasons).

Unfortunately for me, I'm still trying to come up with my own original thought, but the circle seems to lead me to a culmination of several others posts.

I agree.

i started a thread just like this on .Net moons ago ... i sure wish i had saved what i'd written because i still feel the same... but it's too much to write... lol ... i think i've been around the community long enough now for folks to know what defines me as a fan ... ;) ...

Have you not been posting here for years under a different user name just? I thought you were always Meatgrl with a new name, if you sorry, welcome!

I've decided on this:
I only add to the above that I will unconditionally offer my support to Meat as it is my choice to do so. Followed by, I understand it is not my right as a fan to be disrespectful to Meat because I monetarily support him.

NO - this does not necessarily mean I end up in love with everything Meat does.

YES/NO - I have a love/hate relationship with this site. Love the organization, ease of use, up-to-date information and the fact that Meat logs on for direct interaction with people here. Hate the fact that users are often mistreated for their opinions whether overly positive, regular positive, or negative. Example: if one song in particular moves you so much as to gush, then it should not be considered ass kissing. If you cannot gush on a fan website then where can you gush? I come to a fan site to be understood, to know that I'm not alone in my Meat Loaf world. I've met great people here and I love that fact. But privately we speak. There is an unspoken fear and that I don't love.

Paraphrased from PanicLord to reflect my views:
YES - there are a few of other music artists I like to listen to but don't particularly consider myself to be a fan of, because I do not feel as strongly about them as I do about Meat Loaf.

All of the above should cover my major bases. There was a spark at the beginning of being a fan, it was instantaneous and true. For me an emotional connection was made with Bat I. I discovered he had done other CD's prior to Bat...and these were the days before scan the barcode and have a listen, hear the preview of a song to determine if the $11.00 or so was worth the investment. I bought everything I could that Meat Loaf put out and what I couldn't find, I later found. I didn't care whether or not I would like it....I looked at the titles, saw how many tracks were on it, said cool....went to the register and bought it. I listened to them all, I've loved and not loved as much, but never regretted spending the $. I created my own memory of sitting down and discovering. At that very least it is well worth it. My feelings for Meat do not waver. I've been a fan of many things over my years, but none more important to me than Meat.


As far as the uncritical deal....the only person I am uncritical of is Meat, he works too damn hard and he has way too many other helpers with "constructive criticism" plus I'm not very good at it....I'll just leave that "job" to other useful fans. Hard for me to imagine myself not being emotional connected to Meat, so I'll use another artist that I would just be a consumer of. Let's take Bon Jovi, knowing that they've put out albums in the past that were excellent and I have most of them, if I knew nothing more than they had a new album coming out....I'd probably buy it just because of their track record. And I have NO emotional attachment there. I like their music as a rule, but I'm not a following fan.

I agree...you've never said that you claimed Meat's new album to be crap or garbage, however, I think I wouldn't be surprised if you were offering up a serving or two of constructive criticism in the next month or so. On the flip side, I would be surprised if you went gushing over the new album. Just from my perception reading your post praise without constructive criticism is useless. You are one of the helpful useful elves here. :)

Suzieq

So you agree that I've not crapped on Meat's new album yet are already putting words in my mouth? :roll:

I really don't think that it is fair to predict what the other person might say or do in the future...we hardly know ourselves...how can we claim we know somebody else...

And Please...if somebody says they don't like something...it's ok...this is not a greeting card (thank you, chsib, etc)...this is a forum....

No, that wasn't me. I only discovered this website in February this year but not to worry.

In my mind, respect is one of the things that sets fans apart from those people who aren't. Someone who isn't a fan will criticise an artist's work and they don't care how hurtful it may be but as a fan, if I'm going to say I don't like something I will think very carefully about how I say it and if I can't think of a nice way to say it then I won't say it.

Having to buy bunk beds lol

I agree you have not crapped on Meat's new album. However, I have not put words in your mouth. You've only gave me the perception of you offering constructive criticism from your post. And there is a way to give that criticism without crapping on Meat's new album. To be frankly honest, I hope my perception is 100% wrong and everything will be peaches and cream from all his fans. Reality is....someone isn't going to like something about the new album. And it doesn't really matter who it is.

Fair? Predict? I said, "I wouldn't be surprised" on two counts. I'm no soothsayer, I'm only sharing an opinion of what I think based on a previous post that I cited.

IMO: It is likely that there will be no praise without constructive criticism based on a few posts.

IMO: It is also likely that "someone" will reply to this post. Is that prediction?!? It's not rocket science to see the forest through the trees.

I actually give people credit actually for being able to criticize Meat's work. It's something I can't do. So that's a good thing. Meat likes and accepts constructive criticism so there are a fair number of helpful people here that can do that for him.

Suzieq

My prediction is that I am done with this debate...

Anyway...when I say I don't like something...I don't critisize...I express my personal opinion and it is very subjective opinion as it is very personal one...I never force it down people's throat not do I critisize people who hate what I love...beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

In other news...so sorry, Meat...but I can't offer constructive critisizm...see...I had a whole meditation session yesterday with my on self and came to the following conclusion...the thing is...I am not at all qualified to critisize you constructively...or even probably critisize at all...

So, just for the sake of discussion, ;) are you saying that you would be more critical toward Bon Jovi's albums? (I don't get that from your post) Don't you think that they (and other artists) work very hard as well? For the record, I'm also in the "consumer" category as far as Bon Jovi goes, but I know they also have many passionate fans.

I agree that it's very difficult to be impartial, or even "critical", if you will, when we feel an emotional attachment to a particular artist. I'm guilty of it myself, although my posts in this thread may seem to indicate otherwise. ;) It may also be, as someone else posted, because someone feels an emotional attachment to an artist's work, that they react strongly, positively or negatively, particularly if that work is something different than what they are used to. I'm OK with different, and choose to look at each piece for what it is, on it's own. I admittedly used to lean somewhat toward the other side, and missed out on some good music as a result. I've since learned my lesson. ;)

I completely understand buying an artist's albums because you like other stuff they've done, and/or because you want to support them- I've done both. What I don't get is people who say "I will play that song whether I like it or not." Why? Is there some sense of disloyalty if you don't? And this is not a dig at those people- I'm just curious. Even on some of my very favorite albums there are a track or two that I skip.

I too have seen this kind of discussion on another artist's fan board, and yes, it could go on endlessly. There are also some people there who can be extremely critical, yet still consider themselves to be big fans. I don't necessarily agree with that position, either, but I think it can make for some interesting discussions- that is, when it doesn't escalate to fighting. :?

I do agree, too, that it is easy to say some things sitting behind a keyboard that one might not be so bold as to say in person. I've sometimes wondered how some people on the other fan board would react if the artist responded to their comments (as I've sometimes wished he would do).

Also, in case anyone thinks I'm avoiding giving my opinion of the new album, I can only comment on the single so far, and I like it. It's catchy. Now, I'm down with the "concept album" concept, so I'm very interested to see how it fits in with the other songs. And for that, I'll have to wait.

I actually am on one other fan board only and I haven't seen too much criticism there cause there ain't much to criticize...

However, all crazy parodies of Lady Gaga and Adam Lambert I've seen were there to see because they themselves posted those youtube links...and they thought it was funny and brilliant...so I guess some just enjoy laughing at themselves....

Ok good, now we're getting to the nuts and bolts of it. You pose a good question, I could be more critical toward Bon Jovi albums because I'm not emotionally attached to it. I like a majority of their stuff, I'm sure they work hard for their fans, but I don't follow their career like some of their passionate fans. The main thing here is, I've followed Meat's career over the years, I see the years of dedication, and I see the criticism (not just by fans, but by media). I can only speak for myself but because of my emotional connections, I cannot criticize Meat. It would be easier to pick a demo by someone else (but don't tell me Meat recorded it), and have me listen objectively to the demo. I would have to do it blindly because my mind is already going to put a positive spin to it if I know Meat did it. So I'd be listing to the +.


I'm okay with different too. I'm open minded and willing to go on different paths with my favorite artist. They say life is like a box of chocolates....

I honestly don't know why people say they would play the song whether they like it or not. I can't answer that, I'm not one of those. The skip button is handy for me but completely situational.

exactly

Amen!

I like the single too....and I really like the album reviews thread from the fans that had the opportunity to sit and listen to the album. I'm ready to treasure works of past and welcome HCTB with open arms.

Suzieq

This is very much where I sit :-) And frankly I wouldn't join the fansites of those artists I feel less attachment to.

I don't offer "constructive criticism" to Meat because, like you, I don't feel I have the expertise or credibity to do this. All I can do is tell him what has captivated me, what I have liked, what has made it special.

And there's something else that I guess is part and parcel of that emotional attachment as far as I'm concerned. Some people will always reach to the stars .. and some of those have it in their power to create magic for others and lift them to the stars as well. Meat has that as far as I'm concerned.

For me Meat always creates magic in the studio or on stage, every time. Magic's so very special, and to try and analyse it and pick it apart is for me as futile as trying to capture moonlight in a bottle. I simply embrace it without question or critique and it always fills me with wonder.

Caryl

I wouldn't either. But, not everyone feels that way. Some people are just in it for the music, and separate that from the artist, as a person. For me, I find it difficult, if not impossible to separate the two.

So, here's a question- again, strictly in a general sense- how much does that emotional attachment affect our enjoyment of the music? I honestly don't know, and I'm genuinely curious. Do we like the music more because we like the artist as a person- at least what we perceive them to be? Or, is it the other way around?

I guess that depends on how one defines fan. You can say you're a fan of something and mean you just enjoy it .. to me, "fan" as in member of a fanclub is closer to the MW definition, an ardent admirer/enthusiast .. and ardent implies a warmth of feeling, typically expressed in eager zealous support. So, again to me, separating music and artist would be difficult.

Also to me a perfomance consists of two things (whether studio or live) the music and the person, so the feelings of that person would always be important, and would inform the way I spoke or wrote to them about it, either directly or publicly where they might hear or see it. A couple of years ago I went to a concert to see a performer who had been one of the icons of my youth. I was very disappointed as were the friends I went with, and we wouldn't repeat the experience, but nor did we seek out his website to leave criticism. And the more I like and admire the person, the more I would want to be sensitive to their feelings.


Interesting and difficult. Certainly I have no emotional attachment to say, Motzart or Handel .. but I love their music. I don't need to like the composer as a person to enjoy the work being performed by someone else. I had no liking for much of wjat I knew of Michael Jackson as a person, but there were songs he performed that I enjoyed very much, and there are many artists with whom I feel no emotional attachment to the person, but whose performances I've attended which I've enjoyed, and some whose performance has made a real emotional connection.

In th case of Meat, his performances are so full of passion I'd find it hard NOT to make an emotional connection to the performance .. it doesn't have to be an amazing song for me to love the way he delivers it. The strength and power of any music imo is how far it can and does resonate with our emotions. Liking and admiring what I see in him as a person? Without doubt that enhances it for me greatly. Bottom line for me though is that special magic he has on stage, and that comes through to me in his studio work. Suspending criticism and just being open to it and to the feelings it evokes is what makes it extra special. At the playback, as the album started for a few seconds I was struck by how different it was, how different to what I'd expected. But I closed my eyes and opened my ears and my heart, and in return was lifted away on an incredible journey ..

Caryl

I like this type of forum discussion. It really makes me think about the "why".

This is how I discover new music/artists. I hear a song...it's played a few times...I like the song enough to find out who the artist is....then maybe buy the single off Itunes or the next time I'm near a music store, I may check out the CD. So in my world, I like the music first then figure out the artist. So, I like a broad scope of music and can totally separate the artists from the actual output. Occasionally, I'll get the advice from friends....hey check out, XXX, I think you'll dig it.

Here's where it gets sketchy for me....I've enjoyed an artists output, then find out that he/she has done some morally wrong things....at times I feel I shouldn't support that person because they are a bad person....but then sometimes the music is so good, I can't help it. I struggle with this. But I always go back to the music vs. the character of the artist.

Meat's music impacted me differently. I wanted to know more about this band or man singing, instantly. Credit due to the passion of BOOH and FCOL. And a fan of Meat Loaf was born.

Another good couple of pondering questions. I don't know the answer to the first one either, but it is interesting. I can only speak for myself, but I usually like Meat's covers of songs better than the original. In this case it is Meat's unique voice that I like, not necessarily because I like him as a person (or my perception as he). As far as new original music by an artist, I think yes, I'm positively charged to liking Meat's music more, but because I love Meat's voice and it begins there, then it goes to liking the perception of the artist.

Flip side, if someone sings a Meat song (inevitably at Karaoke), I don't enjoy the song, etc. It's often just the wrong voice for me. The same will hold for me if someone was singing an Elvis song, it's just not enjoyable for me. I'm not even emo. to Elvis.

However, I can enjoy a song from Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake, or Bon Jovi that is covered by someone else. I enjoy a lot of music on American Idol that are done by the contestants. All in all, I think it just depends and there isn't a blanket answer.

Suzieq

First, I'd like to say thanks to the folks who have been indulging me..it has been an interesting discussion. :-)


When you say you were disappointed, do you mean you thought the performance was poor, or the setlist was not what you wanted to hear? Or was it the performer's "personality"? You say you'd never see him live again, but do you still listen to/ like his albums? I'm not a Bob Dylan fan (don't dislike him, just don't really know his music), but I've heard (as in read) from people who like him a lot, that he is awful live. Yet they still really like his albums.

I wouldn't purposely seek out an artist's website to slam them, either. But let's say that you were already a member there. What, if anything, would you say about your experience?



OK, good, this is what I was getting at, albeit in a roundabout way. :lol: As Caryl said, I didn't think too much of what type of person Michael Jackson seemed to be (other than to have sympathy for him as being very troubled), but I can't deny that he was an extremely talented person.

I've heard (read) some people say that they wouldn't want to meet their idol, for fear that he or she would not live up to their expectations, and that would affect their opinion of the artist.

I've thought about this, using my own favorite artists, and honestly, I don't think there is a given proportion of how much I like their music versus how much I "like" them. For example, I saw Elton John and Billy Joel together. Billy was much more engaging with the crowd, funny; Elton stood up and waved a few times. Billy graciously introduced his band members toward the end of the show; Elton never acknowledged his. (Granted, this is probably just personality differences between both performers.) Yet, if I had to choose just one of them to see again, it would be Elton, hands down.

This is pretty much how it goes for me as well.

You're right, it does depend. In the case of Karaoke, it's probably just the performance that's awful :lol: (Not knocking Karaoke, I think it's loads of fun, and some people are very good at it)

In terms of not liking a cover, the only one I really can't listen to is Barry Manilow's version of Read 'Em and Weep. And I know Jim Steinman produced it and all, but I still think it's awful. But I like other stuff Barry has done.

It's rare, but sometimes I even like cover versions more than the original. I think Mary J. Blige absoulutely kills on U2's One, for instance. (I like U2, don't love them)

I agree, absolutely appalling. Hits all the notes etc, but no emotion whatsoever.


[QUOTE=It's rare, but sometimes I even like cover versions more than the original. [/QUOTE]

Yeah - Bonnie Tyler's version of To Love Somebody is brilliant!

lol .. funnily enough it was Bob Dylan I went to see. Set list disappointed me, but to be fair we went thinking that we should see him once live before he or we dropped off the perch ;) I haven't kept up with his musical output over the years, so I accept I was likely to be disappointed .. (Although as an aside had we been attending a Meat concert for the first time, we would have heard some of the familiar classics .. something for regular concert goers to remember perhaps when saying "Drop Paradise .. etc" I suppose as Meat concert goers the lack of the big early classics in Dylan's set was bound to surprise us :-) )

Performance also disapponted me .. band was good, but we didn't find him so at all. He was pretty static, standing behind a keyboard at the side of the stage for a lot of the time, but cme to the front for his fans at the end.

And .. the six rows in front of us were obviously serious fans, and clearly having a whale of a time. Can't say what I would have done were I a member of his fanclub .. although I think I can guess ... if I'd bothered to join his fanclub or forum I would have done so because I felt more connection to him as a person and performer, so I would have kept my disappointment to myself .. Might have said that it was my first concert and I'd been hoping to hear some of the early classics? But were I a member of such a board I would have probably gone with different expectations anyway. I coudn't offer him useful guidance even if he read his board, so I'd say something positive or say nothing.

You mention Elton John. I have a lot of time for him as a performer, and I find him an interesting person now. But there's no significant connection, so I don't seek out a forum for him. I love his concerts, but don't feel the need to try and tell him. I vote with my returning feet ;)

So I guess I need to care quite a lot for the performer to want to join a club or forum .. for me that's Meat. And if I care for someone I want to consider their feelings very carefully before I give feedback.

As to fear of meeting "idols" .. I'm not someone who's ever hung around waiting to see any performer, because I've never had the desire really. The exception is Meat, but wanting to meet him developed because I felt I understood something of the person he is, something of his qualities and values, and wanted to meet someone I thought was a good person who was also exceptionally talented. I wanted to meet the person who takes Meat Loaf on stage ;) I didn't expect to be disappointed, and I wasn't :-)

Caryl

My only membership for an artist is here. I'm not including a sports membership site, a motivator I listen to, or my radio station. So because of my expressed views earlier, I am like Caryl. I'm wrapped up in the experience as a whole. I am ready to take whatever Meat has in store. I leave set lists, production quality, costuming, sound, lighting, choreography all up for Meat to decide and present. Every show is like Christmas for me. Barring the show where Meat was so ill, my only concern was his health and him doing what was best for him.

I have heard that too and it was a concern for me. But it was more of a fear of an unknown. Meat was in my neck of the woods for the Storytellers tour and I was seated in the nosebleeds then. But the fuzzy microphone passed my way for a question. I could not muster a voice because I feared that he would think my question wasn't according to the rules of the Storyteller format and make fun of me (cause the man has a wonderful sense of humor). I didn't have a thick enough skin for it. I would've cried and would've changed my opinion of him. But it wouldn't have been HIS fault. So, what happened...I waved the mic through .... two seats down from me a lady (unrelated to me) asked a question and it was the same question I had in my head. It was about Rocky Horror Picture Show (Hot Patootie)....he asked if she could dance....and she was asked to come up on stage to dance. Because of my own fear, I missed a GOLDEN opportunity, so I broke my fear. I kicked myself from Storytellers, grew up, and decided that Meat was worth the risk. I figured I laugh at my shortcomings all the time, why wouldn't I be able to take it from Meat. Now, I'm glad I took that chance. My biggest reason for wanting to meet my idol was to thank him face to face. He's heard many a thank you and I get that....but there is a sense of well being and all is right in the world when you give back that thank you. I've met him a few times now, I think I have yet to actually thank him (LOL), but somehow I think he already knows.


Yes, I understand completely.

I've come across some cover versions that I've liked more than the original myself. And I agree it's rare, but it does happen.

This is where I stand too.

Suzieq

Wow, loving all the responses, thanks folks, really interesting!

Thought I'd come back in and try and explain why I am such a fan as opposed to just what being a fan means to me, as a few of you have above.

It's a combination of things, but the song I'm Gonna Love Her For Both Of Us really sums it up for me; it is my favourite song. It's full of drama, passion, and power. I can imagine myself being the person rescuing the girl in this situation. And all that emotional connection happens through the fantastic writing of both lyrics and melody, the amazing production, and the phenomenal power of Meat's voice.

The key thing that does it for me is that Meat sings it like he really means it.

Another thread mentioned Barry Manilow's cover of Read Em And Weep. This is a good example of how Meat owns a song when he sings it. He wipes the floor with Barry, who otherwise is a decent enough singer and a good showman. But whereas Barry hits each note acceptably, Meat sings the whole thing like his life depends upon it, and really performs the song. So much better.

That is all based on Meat's Steinman recordings so far, the "rock opera" style of song. However, I also think Meat does "normal" (for want of a better word) rock songs superbly. I recently rediscovered how much I like Amnesty Is Granted and Running For The Red Light. Here, yet again, it's the sheer energy and conviction with which he sings them that makes them so special. He turns them from being great rock songs into extraordinary rock songs.

And then of course there's the live shows. The Royal Albert Hall show was out of this world. Hearing those songs live made my hair stand on end. It was electrifying.

Overall then for me, it really comes down to the man himself - his passion, his conviction, his belief in what he's singing. The emotional investment Meat makes in his songs in turn makes me invest in the songs in a way that happens very rarely with anyone else. That's why I'm a fan and why I'll never stop rocking!

BRAVO PanicLord! BRAVO!

Ok, for the Barry Manilow moment here. I saw him in concert in 08', his version of Mandy was absolutely flawless performance wise, notes wise, lyrics wise. Stunning. And I actually bought his CD because of the conviction. When you connect with an audience through a song, it's very powerful. However, I am no where near subscribing to his fansite or ready to comment on how sexy he is. That's all reserved for the honorable mentioned in the site here. :)

Luckily for us, Meat can hit a broad scope of relating to people through many a song. Because he can convince in every song he does and he is convinced himself. I really consider that a great talent and never boring.

Suzieq

lol- When you said "icon", I had a feeling you were talking about Bob. Your comments are very typical to others I've read. Good point that if you had been on his fanboard, you would have known what to expect.


I'm not someone who's ever hung around the arenas, either, but I did it exactly once (for some of the same reasons you mentioned), and I got to meet Bruce Springsteen, if you can call a handshake and me mumbling, "Thank You", meeting him. :oops: :lol: I was so nervous! But, as Suzie said, that was all about me (I'm extremely shy), not him. He was really very nice.

That is so cool, Suzie, that you were at Storytellers! That was a chance of a lifetime- you are very lucky. :D The closest I have ever gotten to Meat was when I had first row once at a concert.

I belong to a couple of fanboards, and there are a couple of others I look at on occasion, but never post. It's a matter of degrees, I guess.

I saw Barry for the first time last year; it was my husband's Christmas present. My only complaint was that the show was very short- he only sang for about 70 mins. And he is a showman- dancing, singing, etc. But, I liked him the best when he just sat at the piano and sang. Mandy was wonderful, but I thought Weekend in New England was simply stunning. That one song was worth the whole show, IMO. So yes, he connected. But Read "Em and Weep"? Sorry Barry...not so much. I agree with PanicLord- Meat owns that song. But I wonder what I would think of Barry's version had I not heard Meat's first?

I'm also obviously here because I am a Meat Loaf fan, and I will say that his songs have touched me, and that he is a great live performer. However, I am terrible at gushing- online, in person, on paper- any kind of way. I'm horrible at putting my feelings into words. So, just as I said to Bruce, I guess I'll just say, "Thank You." ;)

the thread is what being a fan means to me....
the most important word is ME... each of us have our own opinions on being a fan - this is a fan website free to open discussions and information. I would think the most important thing is to respect Meat and each other. Like some on here i feel an emotional attachment to Meat's work.. right or wrong that's me. I am of the opinion i will like it because it is Meat's work. I am excited for his new CD to come out... watching his tweets shows me how much fun he is having -- IMO that will transcend into his music/CD. I do not imply this is "sucking up" or "kissing ass" it is how i feel. A fan who enjoy Meat's music - and most of his movies (i have a tough time watching him be a bad guy.. but i know they are more fun to play LOL)

thanks for your time :) Megan

well said, spoken like a new yorker from texas:lol:

Thanks nikox1 :) strange combination i know! ROFL:D

your welcome!! my middle name is strange:D, so dont worry about it!!