Temp
 

I noticed Queen references in the music (and some Led Zep) but I still have to find Tom Petty. ;)

In which respect exactly? I don't know why some members of this forum are that obsessed with comparing Meat Loaf to Bruce Springsteen all the time. They are different artists with different shows, different audiences with different expectations (although there are a couple of Meat Loaf fans who are Springsteen fans as well), and different approaches to their work/performances. A singer/songwriter like Springsteen trying to be like Meat Loaf would appear ridiculous as well as I can't imagine Meat picking up an acoustic guitar and just play and sing a song on his own in front of a large audience (I'd really like to see that, though).

I've always been more interested in Meat Loaf's live performances than in his records. When it comes to Springsteen, it were the songs that drew me to him. Bruce (and Kojak :))) shaped my concept of America when I was kid, whereas I consider Meat Loaf good entertainment.

What you think is "better" depends on your personal preferences (which may vary in the course of time). This will probably get me a lot of "dislikes" but if Bruce and Meat played in my town at the same night, I'd go to Bruce's show. 15 years ago I might have opted for Meat, who knows? The NLE has always been one of the greatest bands I know and consisted of truly amazing musicians, the current line-up is especially interesting, but at the moment Bruce attracts me more than Meat.

It was a couple of things that came together at the right time that formed the "Meat Loaf style", that made it unique and hard to imitate. (Which is a blessing as well as burden as many people associate him with and love him for the Bat sound. That makes him stand out but it also makes it harder to be successful with something new.) Since he and his performance use to be unusual, over the top and theater-like, most people who try to be like him will fail and/or appear like a caricature. That does not only go for Meat Loaf. Try to be like David Bowie, for example. There are things that just can't be credibly reproduced. But how many other atists actually desire to be like Meat Loaf or Bowie? I don't know any artist who is like Springsteen either. Some may be able to create something similar to the typical Springsteen sound (but not necessarily that of the E Street Band, musicians like Clemons or Bittan have/had a very distinctive style of playing) but what about his personality? You might be able to copy some features of another artist's style and sound but not the artist. It doesn't have anything to do with being "better" than someone else but with being different from other artists. You can't be exactly like someone else, even if you want to.

I have only seen Bruce live on DVD, he has a great band and great songs, he works hard on stage. For me at the end of the day Meat is better as a vocalist obviously and as a showman in total command of the stage. This takes nothing away from Bruce who is great in his own right. As for catching the Meat Loaf sound on record I have not heard anyone do it successfully including an imitator who tried to make his own album and it sucked with awful songs. The closest I ever heard was an attempt to imitate Steinman by "Katrina" of "Katrina and the Waves" fame with a blatant borrowing of "Dead Ringer" with inferior lyrics.

I haven't noticed a Petty influence on HCTB either, but I do hear it in "Forty Days"; it sounds very much to me like "Mary Jane's Last Dance"

So would I.

Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion, but if you've only seen Bruce live on DVD, how is that a fair comparison? To use an oft-used maxim around here, you really have to be there. To say Bruce works hard is an understatement, and I've never seen him have anything but total command of the stage, as you put it. To say that Meat is the better vocalist isn't obvious to me, sorry. Nothing against the NLE either, because they are a fantastic band, but they're not E Street. I don't think Meat can change the setlist on the fly and have them go with it- Bruce can, and does. Again, not a criticism, as most bands don't do that. I have seen both artists live on a number of occasions, and, while I know this won't be popular, I'll be at Bruce's show with Sarge.

Is there a reason that Meat and Bruce Springsteen seem to be compared quite frequntely on this forum? As someone who doesn't care for Bruce Springsteen and never listens to his music, I don't really know why there is that comparison?

I agree with this, I don't find them to be that similar at all. Meat has always been a bit of darkhorse in the industry where Springsteen has always been a saint In the eyes of the media.

I. Have seen bruce live and I just don't get it. Decent show but I have always found meat to be much more entertaining.

i have seen both live, and they are amazing!! you can compare alot of things i guess? it all depends on the view of the person seeing it. julie in the mirror = you said you dont see Meat as a better vocalist, nor did you say bruce was better than Meat. it depends on your view of course what sound you like? but with Meats power and range he would be regarded a better singer imo, well if you view it from a technical view point, Meat is a better singer?

I disagree with this. I have seen and heard Meat throw in random songs and go off on a tangent with random bits on a number of occasions. So i think that the NLE could do an on the fly setlist change no problem.

As for your last statement, thats just one less person that i have to fight for the front row seats

On the contrary, they changed the setlist on the Storytellers tour each night. One night, someone wanted to hear It Just Won't Quit. The band listened to the song once on headphones and did an amazing job. They performed an incredible version of What You See Is What You Get on the fly too.

I agree that they are very different artists and bands, so it's impossible for me to compare.

How about creating a separate thread instead? The "off topic" posts were actually triggered by an interesting question that was raised by Paul himself.

I agree that some posts might detract from the actual topic of this thread and that the discussion is in danger of derailing but calling them "pollution" is a bit harsh. They are non-offensive and reflect what members of this forum think about Meat Loaf's work. I also think that deleting posts is unfair to the people who bothered to spent time on writing them. Maybe this thread is not the right spot for them but they should have a place on this forum, in my opinion. Smithie, for example, posted something about the Storytellers Tour I didn't know of until now.

yeah, could we move the Bruce conversation to a different thread? Agreed that this thread should be strictly kept to Q/A because Paul probably has limited time and having to weed through tons of stuff detracts from answering more questions :)

I actually was enjoying the Bruce discussion, I'm a huge fans of both Meat and Bruce and think they each bring something different to the table, but also have a lot in common.

The Bruce/ Meat Discussion
 

A couple of people expressed an interest in continuing this discussion, and there were a few posts I wanted to respond to, so I started a new thread here. Perhaps the mods will decide to move the other posts here as well.

This is not a simple question to answer, IMO, and you are of course correct when you say a great deal depends on what sound you like. I'd also say that if we were having this discussion 18-20 years ago, my answer might well have been different; however, we'll talk about now.

First off, Bruce and Meat have very different voices- always have. Both have changed over the years. Bruce's voice isn't one that might be called a "pretty" voice, and there's plenty of people who are of the opinion that he can't sing. I think many people base this primarily on a song like "Born in the USA", where he's practically shouting, and which, quite honestly, I'm not all that fond of. :lol: If you dig deeper into the catalog, however, and especially once you start looking at live performances, you get a different picture. In some of the slow songs, especially, he sounds particularly good, IMO:

"Something in the Night" 1976:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bfZby9CN8E

Now, I think we'd all agree that there's many components to what makes a good musical performance of any kind, and "technical perfection" isn't as important as being able to convey emotion, and Bruce could always do that in spades:

"The Promise" (Live- solo piano) Seattle, 1978: (one of my very favorites)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCXcsTq_H9g

"You're Missing"- (solo piano) 2002 (IMO, one of the most heartbreaking songs ever)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xb1...?search_algo=1

Over the years, I think Bruce's technique has actually gotten better, in that he's learned to use his voice better. Bruce has always had loads of power- still does; what he may not have as much as Meat is range, from the highs to the lows. However, he has developed a falsetto at some point, which I don't think he could do early on. What he also does very effectively is to create an "atmosphere", by which he's doing anything from a whisper, such as in the end of "Jungleland" (to draw you in, IMO) up to a scream. Some of my favorite vocals of his, chronologically:

"Real World"- (solo piano) 1990
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_PxWw_g_pE

"I Wish I Were Blind" 1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqxNg_rb350

"The River" 2000 (End of the song is a good example of the falsetto)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGHqeYNe_1g

"Incident on 57th Street" (solo piano) 2002
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb6SG9GtgMU

"Nothing Man"- (solo piano) 2005
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9XCv...eature=related

"Adam Raised a Cain" 2011 (not to mention killer guitar solo, and I was there) ;))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MxfDkUHySI

"Youngstown" 2012- I was truly amazed (I was there) at how long he could hold the word "Toooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwn" :shock: :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liAsh...D63BB54CCCDB16

If you'll notice, there are no "hits" on this list (except maybe "The River", and this is a different arrangement from the album version), and nothing from the "Born in the USA" era.

Now, to get back to Meat. In terms of power, I'd say he has no lead. In terms of range, sure, I'll give it to him. Now, does this automatically (i.e. "obviously") make him "technically" a better singer? I'm going to say no.The talent/ voice one is given is just the beginning; to quote Eric Clapton, "It's in the way that you use it". ;)

One can also argue on key/ off key, in time/ out of time, isolated notes hit on pitch- it's all irrelevant, IMO, if the end result isn't pleasing to the listener. So, if you ask me who I would rather listen to, I'm going to be totally honest and say that I don't really like the way Meat sounds live these days (on record, it's not bad). Bruce, on the other hand, I enjoy listening to very much. It is what it is.

Pics or it didn't happen! :mrgreen:

In all seriousness, I have seen several posts stating something to this effect on this board, and I've asked for some actual examples, and yet no one seems to have given any. So, got any?

Fair enough- most people either get it, or they don't.

That's cool- I guess I also have one less person to worry about competing with for a spot in the pit. ;)

The last time I had a front row seat at a Meat Loaf show, not only did I not have to fight for it, I didn't even have to pay for it. :twisted:

Interesting- I wasn't aware of that. Again, most bands don't do anything like that. It requires a lot of experience on the part of the band members to make it happen.

The last tour, and beginning the tour before that, Bruce started taking requests from the audience every night via signs that people would bring. Over time, it went from requests for Bruce's songs, to requests for sometimes obscure cover songs, and took on a "stump the band" kind of quality. Admittedly, some of the songs were rehearsed beforehand, but others were indeed spontaneous. It added a really fun dimension to the show. The last tour, they played close to 200 different songs, over 85 shows.

That's not to say that Bruce doesn't shake up the setlists on his own anyway, especially near the end of the tour.

I wouldn't go to a Bruce Springsteen concert unless I was paid to be there so you're welcome to your spot in the pit. ;)

Can you tell me why there appear to be so many comparisons of Bruce Springsteen and Meat on this board?

Roy Bittan on piano and Max Weinbeg on drums for both Bruce as well as Jim Steinman and Meat Loaf. And though I only hear it a little bit, it has been said over the years that some Steinman compositions are inspired by some of Bruce's compositions.

The music for the verse of Took the Words is very similar to the verse of "Jungleland". The chorus of Bat out of Hell is similar to "Thunder Road" in general and the bit just after the bike is very reminiscent of "Night." There could be more, but they're the most obvious ones I've noticed before.

I'm a huge fan of both Springsteen and Meat Loaf, and I don't know if I really have a preference between the two. I find that although Springsteen's voice isn't as 'impressive' as Meat's, the rawness of it makes up for that. Say, for example, the live version of the River that Julie linked in the OP. It's technically nothing special, but the rawness of it captures the intensity of the lyrics and fits it better than a more bombastic voice (like Meat's) would. It's difficult to compare the two voices because they're very different sorts of singers :-)

I love how spontaneous Springsteen is with the setlist, too. Like, when I saw Meat Loaf live, I already knew the setlist (right down to what order it was going to be in) before I even walked in the door. And while there's nothing wrong with that, it's cool to not really know what's coming. It adds to the suspense :D

To be honest, beside the songs I mentioned above, I don't really see many similarities between the two, and because of that they're sort of hard to compare. Members of the E Street Band have played for Meat before, but yeah. They're two very different entertainers, in my opinion. Both very, very awesome entertainers, but who is the 'better' one is entirely subjective.

Agree- I love never knowing exactly what I'm going to get- it's like opening a present. :-)

Excellent- thanks! Now, if only a few thousand more people felt like you, I'd be golden! ;)

I don't know, but some people do like both artists. Please feel free to bring up anybody else you might want to talk about.

I did wonder if it was just a case of people being a fan of them both but I thought it was worth asking in case there was some other reason. :-)

I quite like Neil Diamond myself but I can't really say I've ever really compared him to Meat. They're both so different that I think I'd find it hard to compare them properly.

I think there's a number of reasons why Meat and Bruce get compared fairly frequently on this forum.

Obviously there a number of members here who are fans of both (myself included).

There's the musical links between the two ... Max and Roy from the ESB played on Bat, and Steinman's BFG and other projects, Roy was involved on Bat II (in fact Meat has creditted Roy with being one fo the key people in making a Bat record) , as well as the fact that soime of the NLE members over the years have had links to Bruce too ... Mark Alexander toured with Bruce's guitarist Little Steven during the Little Steven & The Disciples of Soul era in the late 80's, Ray Anderson has played with Bruce too). In terms of the Bat / Born To Run comparisons, both were recorded in a very similar timeframe and the influences on each other can clearly be heard ... my opinion is that those influences come from the playing of Max and Roy (Roy on piano in particular) rather than either Bruce or Jim/Meat taking influence from each other.

Also from my own point of view a lot of Meat's (especially the Steinman penned material) and Bruce's music deals with the same sort of themes and has the same cinematic storytelling quality. Both their most recent albums have very similar themes albeit approached in completely different styles.

They are two completely different artists on stage though I think, seeing a Bruce and the ESB concert is almost like seeing the worlds best bar band, there's a real party atmosphere on stage and in the crowd, Meat's stage show is slightly different in it's intensity, is more polished almost more like a West End or Broadway production but no less intense and enjoyable.

Drat! You've stumbled upon our super-secret plot to take over the internet, one website at a time! ;) :lol:

No, Andy pretty much summed it up- I was coming back to post much the same thing.

I saw an interview with Kasim a while ago (I can't find it again, unfortunately), and he said that the start of Bat was basically himself, Max, Roy, and Todd laying down the basic tracks before anything else was added. Interestingly, he also said he didn't really expect the album to do too much, and didn't really think about it until he heard it on the radio in the car one day. When I asked him to autograph my copy, though, he told me he was quite proud of his work on the album.

Anyway, as Andy said, they have shared a number of the same musicians- Steve Van Zandt also played guitar on (and produced, I think) "Amnesty is Granted".

Roy Bittan definitely is a key player (pun not intended, lol) in the sound of both artists' work. An interesting note, though; I find a huge similarity in the piano intro to the "Dead Ringer" version of "More Than You Deserve" and the intro in the full-band version of "The Promise", yet Roy didn't play on that particular track (according to the credits), even though he's on the rest of "Dead Ringer". I find this inconsistency to be quote maddening. :lol: I've also tried to do a "Chicken or the egg" analysis between when both songs were recorded, to no avail. (Yes, I realize I'm sounding like Wario now. :lol: )

Tangetially, I saw Steinman claim that at one point he was considering being managed by Jon Landau, Bruce's manager. I don't know what became of that. Also, they've (Bruce and Steinman) both worked with Jimmy Iovine.

The ESB is the world's greatest bar band, IMO; there's nothing quite like them when they are firing on all cylinders. "Little Queenie" into "Twist and Shout" in St. Louis in '08 was just an incredible experience. :D The thing, though, is that Bruce is also capable of putting in an extremely intense emotional performance as well- for example, "Backstreets" on the Darkness tour (how I WISH I had gotten to see one of those shows in person!). One of the the things I wish he'd do in his current shows is more slow songs, but unfortunately, today's audiences seem to lack the ability to pay attention for longer than a few minutes before they start to get restless. :roll:

And co-wrote according to the credits ... how I managed to forget that connection when it's one of my favourite Meat songs is beyond me!

back to the voices, you made some very good points i have to say. but meats power and range are far superior imo. meats songs are harder to sing imo.

I don't disagree that Meat's songs are harder to sing. I do disagree on your other point- I think Bruce has a tremendous amount of power behind his voice.

Yep, I've seen him live and I can confirm that. I think Meat's voice appears more "powerful" to some because of his operatic style, his way of "acting" his songs and because of being a "loud" person in general.

Regarding the claim that Meat Loaf's songs are "harder to sing": I'll agree with that on the day he does a credible rendition of Jungleland. :twisted:

[QUOTE=Sarge;570027]Yep, I've seen him live and I can confirm that. I think Meat's voice appears more "powerful" to some because of his operatic style, his way of "acting" his songs and because of being a "loud" person in general.

Regarding the claim that Meat Loaf's songs are "harder to sing": I'll agree with that on the day he does a credible rendition of Jungleland. :twisted:[/QUOT

Seen both live myself!! Love Bruce, such a talent!! But meat is vocally in a different world!! Same could be said = let Bruce do bat!!

I'm glad you didn't suggest a Diane Warren song. :-P

When we talk about "Meat's songs" which songs exactly do we talk about? Not everything is as challenging as the Steinman stuff.

Very true. Again, 20 years ago, this discussion might have been different, but right now, I don't think Meat could do the wails at the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiBRVqx5IzI

People have suggested that last tour when Bruce was doing all the covers. To me that would go against nature somehow (some things are just sacred, :lol:), but I bet he could do a better job than Meat could with "Jungleland", at this point. My opinion.

For the sake of discussion, I'll give an example of a song that isn't Bruce's, either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZq5hy2RsvM

Bruce and the ESB could do a mean All Revved Up and I'd love to hear Meat tackle Point Blank. But I doubt I'd her either.

"Point Blank" is one of those songs that for me, doesn't stand out on the record, but can be stunning in a live performance. (I do love the lyrics- the "Bang, bang, baby you're dead" ending is chilling)) Unfortunately, though, people don't want to be quiet and listen. :roll: I like this version where he threw in the "It was all, there, then it was all gone" line:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LuDqdptSbE

The same goes for "Drive All Night"- I used to think it was just OK until I heard it in St. Louis- it was mesmerizing. Unfortunately, the video cut off before the stunning "Don't cry now/ "dream on, dream on" refrain that ended the song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk79Bgl_7Ms


On another note, did you notice the drumbeat in "Save My Love" is the same as in "Took the Words"? I know it's the "Be My Baby" Spector-ish sound, but still. :-)

Ok I get all the differences , different songs etc etc,, could he sing this and could he sing that? But my ears, which are working fine. Tell me that meat is a more powerful singer with more range!!!

:shock: Amazing! I love Billy but I think he has just performed that song too often (or maybe I just listened to it too often). Him singing it just doesn't sound as exciting to me as it did a couple of years back but singing it together with Bruce revived it.

My ears are working fine, too ;), but I prefer Bruce these days, not only because of his vocals and way of performing.

Yeah, I love that performance from both of them. Too bad Billy didn't do as good of a job with "Born to Run": :doh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qF8...feature=relmfu


Well, my ears (and my eyes) which are also both working fine, tell me that Bruce is a better guitar (and piano, organ, harmonica, bass, banjo etc.) player than Meat. ;)

We can debate voices forever, but Bruce didn't get to where he is because of his singing voice. His major asset is that he happens to be a fantastic songwriter, who has written literally hundreds of songs. I think that's one of the main reasons he's so well-respected. Not to mention that he's an amazing live performer. Meat isn't really a songwriter, nor is he a musician, in the true sense of the word; that's a point that's been pretty much overlooked until now. Lots of other musicians cite Bruce as an influence, but, as one of the posts that inspired this whole thread stated, not many people (if any?) cite Meat as an influence.

Yes, he seemed to struggle with it and have difficulties with keeping with the pace. But the fact that a professional like Billy encounters problems with it actually disproves the assumption that Bruce's songs are easy to sing. You need a lot of energy and passion to do Born To Run justice. I'd like to see Bruce do that song with Melissa Etheridge. Her performance of it was outstanding. :faint:

Personally, to my ears, Bruce has always sounded like he doesn't open his mouth enough when he sings. Everything has always sounded like a muffled scruff. Short of Born to Run, there isn't really another Bruce song that I am a fan of. Based on what I just said, I have to say that I feel Meat t be the better/more powerful singer.

It seems as if the discussion is about to go round in circles. I better go and listen to Wrecking Ball. :))

I'll concede that he doesn't always enunciate clearly (though I can understand him, lol) In some cases, though, as on "Darkness on the Edge of Town", this was done deliberately in the way the album was mixed (according to Chuck Plotkin, who did the mix). The vocals were purposely low, to draw the listener in to pay closer attention.

Bruce used a similar device on songs such as "Highway 29" from "The Ghost of Tom Joad". He's practically whispering- it causes you to pay close attention to the story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8uxbYC5uU

He can enunciate pretty clearly when he wants to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Kt6siKbzE

Darn- I should have put that one in my first post! :-)

Like Sarge said, though, I see this thread going round in circles. Regardless of whether you like it or not, the fact remains that Bruce has a very strong, powerful voice, it's just not an "operatic" voice like Meat's.

Bruce surely has a fansite yes? And just to clear up why I brought up the voice thing again= a person said Bruce had as much power in he's voice as meat. It's not a bad thing, it's just meat is basically an opera singer? Trust me he has more power

I have no issue saying that i am a much bigger Meat fan than i am of Bruce. Personally i have never understood the comparisons as i don't find them all that similar. But, to each their own, if we all liked the same thing then this world would be rather boring

So go enjoy a listen to Wrecking Ball. I'll be over here listening to HIAHB

Yep, several. And people talk about other artists there all the time. It seemed like some people here (including yourself) wanted to discuss this, so I started the thread.

OK, if you say so. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. ;)

Well first off, that was Sarge who said she was going to listen to "Wrecking Ball", not me. But anyway, you are correct- to each their own. And I also think they are different artists, so a direct comparison isn't really valid.

However, on several occasions, people have asked why Bruce is considered "the second coming" and "a saint" (or what have you), and they feel that Meat doesn't get enough respect. So, I pose the question of why people think that is, and no one gives any opinions. I think that's a more interesting discussion, personally.

In the states, Bruce is a total media darling. In fact they all seem to bend over backwards to kiss his ass.

Meat has always been a dark horse in the US media and seems to have to fight for whatever scraps he can get, like Huckabee, which you don't watch unless you are a hardcore conservative Christian.

I will concede that Bruce's songs tend to be more radio friendly. A 3.5 minute semi catchy diddy is easier to get over the air than an 8 minute epic journey. But Meats newer and more radio friendly stuff doesn't seem to get any air play. Bruce could record himself crapping in a bucket and stations would clammer to play it.

Why is Bruce treated like a saint, i have no idea, but i can say that i do not feel that he deserves said treatment.

im not trying to disagree with you at all!! im just responding to state a fact!! this is not an opinion. if you like bruces voice, how he dances, how he smiles etc etc,, thats great. i think he a great talent. seen him live etc etc,,. i just responded to the comment - he has as much power as meat in hes voice. he does not, i agree when you agreed meat has more range. but its not opinion in my view? meats voice is more powerful!!, thats not taking away from bruce in anyway. as i said you may like bruces voice better? thats your choice, cool. but if someone says to me britneys voice is as strong as beyonces? well the fact is its not!! i could maybe like [ for some strange reason ] britneys voice better? thats my view, but i would not say its as good or more powerful.

I have been asking myself that same question. I am assuming that Bruce does have his own fan site? Last time I checked this was supposed to be a fan site for Meat Loaf. Hard to tell sometimes, since lately Bruce Springsteen seems to get mentioned more that Meat.

I have yet to see one concrete example of this- an interview, article- anything. I'm curious as to where you live, as to where you are seeing this. I think there is a lot of perception out there that just isn't true.

Meat just did the Jay Leno show- I'd hardly call that "scraps".

Again, wrong, at least where I live. I have yet to hear any of the new songs on the radio. The classic rock station may play "Born to Run" or "Glory Days" once in awhile, but that's about it. There's some conjecture that he gets so little airplay because Clear Channel, which owns a large number of US radio stations, doesn't agree with Bruce's politics. He hasn't gotten widespread radio play since the '80's.

nikox, dude, I'm not trying to fight with you, believe me. :lol: But, you could say the moon is made of green cheese and state that it's a fact, that doesn't mean I have to think you're right. And in this case, I don't think you're right. I'm talking purely the lung power behind the voice. I've even seen (but unfortunately can't find the quote) Bono quoted as saying that he can't believe how LOUD Bruce can sing. You can't do that with a weak voice. THAT is a fact. ;) To say that Bruce ALSO has a powerful voice doesn't mean that Meat doesn't.

As to Bruce's dancing, have you SEEN that rehearsal tape for the "Dancing in the Dark" video? :doh: I love the guy, but he dances like a white boy. :lol:

Britney versus Beyonce? Well, I'd say I think Beyonce is a better singer than Britney, although Tina Turner wiped the floor with Beyonce (both singing and dancing) a few years ago on some awards show (Grammys, I think). So did Jennifer Hudson in "Dreamgirls"; sorry, but Beyonce doesn't impress me all that much. She is pretty to look at, though.

This thread is also in the "Other Rock and Roll Heroes" section of the forum, so if you dislike the posts so much, you can simply choose not to read it. ;)

But what we do have to read is when Saint Bruce gets crow bared into practically every thread on the forum in one way or another. This thread in itself started as a hijack of the production thread

It's not just in this thread. it has been done in other threads as well. It is a pattern. It is bad enough to have the comparision at all. IF it is done in a respectful manner that I can tolerate. I would even call myself a Springsteen fan. IT has gone on for so long to is becoming disrespectful to the artist that this fan site is supposed to be for. It is even worse that there are people on a Meat Loaf site that are saying how much better Springsteen is. If you are no longer a fan of Meat Loaf then simply leave HIS fan site and leave it to those that are still fans. I am expressing MY opinion. YOu don't have to like it either and you don't have to agree with me. I know I am not the only one that feels this way. Most of the other people that feel the same way have been too disillusioned and disgusted by this site becoming a quasi Springsteen site to even bother posting about it. I was simply bothered by it enough to express MY opinion which I know is shared by others. I wonder what would happen if I went on a Springsteen site and started saying how much better Meat Loaf was than Bruce? First of all, hopefully, his legion of fans would jump on me pretty quickly. That I would expect. Second of all, I hope that the moderators of the site would shut down the disucssion pretty quickly. Yes, I am going THERE. There are very few fans on here truly defending Meat in this discussion. WHY? Cause the majority of them are too disgusted and fed by the whole thing to speak out. They know they will only be put down for defending the very person this site is supposed to be for. Again, this is just MY opinion. I felt that this thread was the most appropriate place to express it. You don't have to agree. You can certainly DISLIKE it. You can attack it all you want. As a member of this forum, I should have the same right to express my thoughts as everyone else.

I might point out that the first person to bring Springsteen up in the most recent thread was Paul Crook. As far as respectful, I don't think I've seen anyone being disrespectful. It seems to me that even my little back-and-forth with nikox1 has been good-natured; if he feels otherwise, then I apologize.

Again, where are people saying that?

Mods? What mods? :lol: OK, we have one, and even that was a recent development. And it takes a LOT before threads are shut down, and it's NEVER about people discussing their opinions about other artists. In fact, the "other artists" section of the site is the only place where people don't fight. Please, do check out the Springsteen fanboards. You might be shocked by what is "tolerated" over there.

Again, who is putting anyone down here? I have not heard any complaints from the mods, although, I suspect now I will.

Where have I "attacked" anything or anyone? Frankly, "disliking" a post is meaningless to me. I simply don't read what I'm not interested in.

Well a fact is a fact!! It does not matter what your own opinion is to be fair? I am a 15 times chess champion = just an example haha!! I don't play chess. At the end of the day it does not matter what you think? The FACT remains I am a 15 times champion? I can clearly hear and have witnessed that meat pound for pound is a better vocalist. He has more range and power. The is an opera singer near enough? So there is no argument?

I understand that people having an opinion but I really do dislike the whole which singer/band is better.

How do we judge this? because in all honesty if you want to go by album sales then some pretty rubbish pop acts could be considered to be better than some classic artists that have been around for years.

I think the E Street Band members that played on Bat 1 will always mean there is a connection to Bruce Springsteen, add to the fact that Jim Steinman obviously took a lot from Bruce's work when creating Bat, Bad For Good and some of Dead Ringer and you have the obvious crossover.

I don't see why it's so terrible to contemplate talking about another artist on a Meat Loaf forum and to be honest I also do not see how it hurts Meat Loaf. I'm sure the likes of Gaslight Anthem would be happy enough to have fans of another artist come across and listen to them because of similar styles?

Musicians constantly have different influences and while i'm not going to say I'm a huge Springsteen fan; I can safely say that I can appreciate what he does and know what I like of his work.

Ever since the days of the supposed 'war' between the Beatles and The Rolling Stones, some people perceive that there has to be a rivalry between musicians when 99 times out of 100 it doesn't exist at all.

I agree with you 100%. Thank you for making that point much more clearly than I did.

Actually if you read his interviews you will see him confessing that does do a LOT of the writing of his songs, he just doesn't take credit for it.

:lol: I'm not arguing. Something like winning a chess championship is measurable objectively; stating someone is a better vocalist is not- it's subjective. As I was trying to point out, there are many different means by which to judge a performance. You are, in fact, presenting your opinion as FACT. Whatever- it's cool. ;)

Exactly, which is why I don't care much about album sales.

I agree.

Right- I'm the one who started it so as to not "pollute" that thread any further. I read plenty of threads on the forum where he's not mentioned at all, so this is an exaggeration.

And as far as "crow barring" Bruce into places, why does Meat seem to mention Springsteen in pretty much every interview he does these days?

What Meat says that he does is more akin to arranging, IMO. Writing a song means to come up with the original melody and/ or lyrics, such that it's an original composition. If he's doing that and not taking credit, then he's cheating himself.

whatever happened to tolerance?

For somone who isn't arguing, you seem to respond to almost every post that doesn't agree with you and point out the flaws in other peoples thoughts and opinions. That to me is being argumentative.

That is a completely FALSE statement. Meat mentioned Bruce in ONE inverview lately. That is definitely not every interview. "Perhaps Meat is following in the footsteps of some of his fans. Since several of his fans here seem to be so obsessed with Bruce..." In case you don't get it, that comment is meant to be sarcastic. And unlike you, I truly am not going to get into an argument. Not of all my posts have been directed at you. I was expressing my general thoughts and opinions as to how I feel Bruce Springsteen has taken over this forum. To show that I am truly not going to argue, I am done responding to you

Problem is, tolerance is a two way street

Perhaps she was exaggerating in much the same vein as she accused me of doing

why so?

completely off topic of course, but i'm interested

Five days of bands, hundreds of venues from morning till night, and no one really hardly agrees on anything in pop anymore. There is no key note, I don't think. There is no unified theory of everything. You can ask Einstein. But you can pick any band, say KISS, and you can go, "Early Theatre Rock proponents, expressing the true raging hormones of youth" or "They suck!"

You can go, Phish, "Inheritors of the Grateful Dead's mantle, brilliant center of the true Alternative community," or "They suck." You go, "Bruce Springsteen, natural–born poetic genius off the streets of Monmouth County, hardest – hardest working – hardest working New Jerseyian in show business, voice of the common man, future of Rock and Roll!", or "He sucks. Get the ~~~~ out of here!"

You could pick any band, and create your own equation. It's fun. There was even a recent book that focused on the Beatles and decided, you got it, they sucked.... -Bruce Springsteen, SXSW Music Festival Keynote Address

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/ne...#ixzz1uyxDHaJY

:D Going off topic has never stopped us before lol

This is my thoughts on tolerance:

a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.

With that said, I have no issues with any other groups of fans or the person(s) that they represent. The Brucie Brigade are free to be the uber fans that they are, but I want that same respect and opportunity to be presented to me when I am uber Meaty fan mode.

I come here to learn about Meat and his goings on, and to have discussions about his career and plans, what I don't want is to have the vast majority of these conversations derailed by a pointless Bruce/Meat comparison. I would not go over to a Springsteen forum and bring up Meat in every thread that I went on, I would simply discuss Springsteen, and when I wanted to talk about Meat, I would come back here.

I am tolerant of all fans, races, creeds, colors, religions, and sexual orientations. All I want is that same respect and attitude in return. Some people are not capable of the tolerance level that I possess.

No, I could just keep hitting the "dislike" button. ;) How is saying "We agree to disagree" being argumentative? I'm not pointing out flaws- a discussion involves different points of view. Again, I thought nikox and I were having a bit of fun.

OK, perhaps every interview is an exaggeration, but it's definitely more than one.

Bravo well said. This site is about Meat Loaf - to support him and get info on HIS career. We have this thread comparing Bruce to Meat in which some people are coming out in favor of Bruce on a Meat Loaf fan site. Again if you are that much of a Bruce fan and not really for Meat, take it to the Springsteen fan site and leave the Meat fan site to the Meat fans. We also have a thread discussing Bruce's Wrecking Ball album. Then we have a thread regarding Bruce's upcoming concert tour. And this discussion actually started it in the Paul Crook's thread about Production. Even Paul's thread was initially hijacked to discuss Bruce. There is also another thread that I can't think of at the moment which is about Bruce. So we discussing Bruce's music, Bruce's album and Bruce's concert tour here. WHY? I can't answer why the endless discussions of Bruce. This site is supposed to be a MEAT LOAF FAN SITE after all.

I think that's a fair point. I don't recall seeing anyone's post about admiring Springsteen's performances, or great vocals, or stage presence being dismissed as worshipping him, or being unable to exercise any objectivity.

It really doesn't bother me who is discussed, nor how positive the discussions are on any artist in Other Rock'n'Roll Heroes. I'm not particularly a fan of Springsteen, and wouldn't dismiss any posts that extol his work or are full of praise for a performance. I agree that comparisons are a bit pointless .. Meat makes no claims to be an original songwriter, nor a talented musician. Nor does he need to be either of these things. He knows how to select and alter a song to make it brilliant, has a team of the most talented rock musicians in the business working with him, and can plan, design and execute a live show that is second to none.

He is simply a great performer in his own right, can still deliver amazing vocals and put together a spectacular show, and is one of a kind. In the Meat Loaf sections of this forum I expect to see posts which also express those sentiments, and which are not dismissed as biased, naive or hero worshipping. He is the Rock'n'Roll Hero whose name heads every page here, so fulsome praise of his work, if that IS hero-worshipping, is not misplaced .. he IS the hero of this site and forum

Caryl

How are you not being afforded that?

It's far from the vast majority.

For the most part, I try to keep my discussions about Bruce, or anybody else, to this part of the forum. I might talk about him here because there are other people on this board who are also fans of his whom I like to talk to that may not belong to the other boards I am on. I can't help it if somebody else brings him up elsewhere on the board.

Those threads were started in the off topic section of the board. It's my understanding that it's allowed to post such things there. And, I repeat, it was Paul who first brought him up in that other thread.

Nor have I, or most people (to be fair, there have been a couple) here dismissed anyone as worshipping anybody.

And I said as much, initially. I started a thread again, in THIS section of the board, to talk about a show I saw with other fans of Bruce's who happen to be here. This was posted in that thread:

I could interpret that as being provocative. Nowhere in my thread did I mention Meat at all (Seeing as how it was a section of the forum titled "Other Rock and Roll Heroes", I thought that was fine). I initially put it off, but then I thought- fine, you want to talk about it, talk about it. I have no problem with an actual discussion, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But, just because I don't agree doesn't make me argumentative.

Easy, when myself, and many other people on this forum express our admiration and respect for me we are regarded as worshipers who praise at the foot of Meat's altar. Our opinions are not respected for the simple fact that we like the vast majority of what Meat does. That or some people just don't have enough to bitch about in their daily lives. Meanwhile, certain Bruce worshipers can practically have an orgasm speaking about Saint Springsteen. So there is definitely a double standard that exist here when it pertains to Saint Springsteen.

Highly disagree, Springsteen gets jammed into discussions left and right around here, not saying that you specifically are doing it, but it does happen quite a bit around here. Also, the mods seems to be quicker on the draw to come to the defense of Saint Springsteen and shut down questionable discussions faster than they have for Meat related issues.

So Bruce is a "media darling". SO WHAT? Do I sense envy and jealousy here? Meat Loaf has repeatedly stated in interviews that he's not in the business for the fame, so neither he nor his fans should have an issue with Bruce getting media attention and gracing magazine covers. Is it Bruce's "fault" that Meat Loaf allegedly does not get enough attention?

It is also not true that Meat rarely appears on TV. I have countless hours of footage of him appearing on TV shows, that many that I'll never manage to watch them all. My collection of Bruce stuff is a joke compared to that. Quantity is not the problem, but choice has been in recent years, in my opinion.

Meat is ambitious, passionate and hard-working but he obviously lacks intuition and skill when it comes to dealing with the media at times - see certain recent events. You also have to keep in mind that Bruce has been with the same record company and the same management for decades. Now look at Meat's career, with all its up and downs, changing partners, the things that lead to the fact the he is more popular in the UK, Germany and the Netherlands than in other countries... It's probably easier to establish yourself in the business and do networking under comparatively stable circumstances and with sufficient, consistent support.

To come back to the "media darling" thing: Being a "media darling" also puts the burden of high expectations on your shoulders and it can be a double-edged sword. Sometimes you might be better off not being one.

Bruce's advantage is that - despite his fame - he still appears to be "a working class hero" (to quote a John Lennon song), a modest likeable guy, someone you can have a beer with - something that appeals to many people and that they can easily identify with. Meat Loaf is rather associated with his stage persona. I can well picture Bruce sitting on his couch in a checkered shirt but when it comes to Meat in a tux and a frilly shirt or the "Elton John" jackets he sports these days - NO WAY! ;) Moreover; Meat has never been regarded as an artist who conveys a particular message or concept. That's not meant to be criticism, he's just a totally different kind of performer. It does not mean that Bruce is "better", it's maybe just easier to relate to a singer/songwriter than to a performer like Meat. Singer/songwriters are more likely to become someone's heroes because people tend not only to admire their performance but also their intellect. There are many people who regard Springsteen as someone who represents their hopes and dreams to a great extent. When he played in front of approximately 200.000 people in East Berlin, it wasn't about just music - it was about freedom.

Anyhow, Bruce being everybody's darling is a myth. There are a lot of people who believe that he's "overrated" (not only die-hard Meat Loaf fans on this forum) and his fans can be very demanding and censorious at times. Considering Meat's way to deal with criticism, he wouldn't endure a minute on a Springsteen fan board. :twisted: We are extraordinarily kind and considerate compared to that. ;)

In most cases "Saint Bruce" is brought up by people who feel the need to elaborate on why Meat is better than Bruce* or to complain about Bruce allegedly getting more attention and recognition than Meat. They could as well refer to Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber or the Pope instead but for some crazy reason they preferably pick Bruce.

* The "Production" thread was "hi-jacked" by that - until then any Springsteen references were restricted to my question whether the Springsteen sound on a particular Meat Loaf song was a coincidence or not. As you can see by Paul's response, it was a valid, production-related question - not intended to compare the two artists or to turn the thread into a Springsteen discussion but to understand Meat Loaf's work.

Cut BostonAngel some slack, she's probably just exhausted from clicking the "dislike" button all the time. ;) I wonder if she also feels annoyed by Meat mentioning Springsteen in interviews...

Damn, about 20 new posts were submitted to this thread while I was typing mine... I better get a drink before I read all that... :shock:

I agree. And just to prove the point: All the following threads have been started in the past 6 months specifically to discuss Springsteen. With the expection of one all have actually been started in the past 2 months.

The Bruce/ Meat Discussion ( 1 2 3)
Sarge (10 May 2012)

Europe! Are You Ready to Be Transformed?!
Julie in the rv mirror (04 May 2012)

What the heck happened to me? Feels like I've Been Hit by a Wrecking Ball!
Julie in the rv mirror (19 Apr 2012)

Wrecking Ball ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
A Slice Of English (02 Mar 2012)

Bruuuuuuuuuuuceeee!!!! ( 1 2)
Julie in the rv mirror (20 Nov 2011)

And we can't forget this thread: Sticky: PRODUCTION ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
Metal Loaf (31 Mar 2012)
where a passing reference by Paul Crook to Bruce Springsteen developed into a full blown debate about who is the better artist, with several so called Meat fans saying that Bruce is by far the better artist.

Go start that many threads praising Meat on a Springsteen fan site and I guarantee you would be stopped from posting pretty quicky. And rightfully so.

I won't even start on the the countless other threads on this forum where the name is constantly being brought up. Just do a search on the forum for Bruce and you will see the countless threads that come up

Say something against Meat Loaf on his own fan site and that is just expressing an opinion and all opinions are supposed to be welcome, even if you are bashing the artist that the site is dedicated to. Say anything against the artist known as THE BOSS and you are being too critical. Once again, last time I checked the name of the site was the Meat Loaf Fan Club. He should be the one considered THE BOSS of this site.

Perhaps a headache pill would have been better. :facepalm:

Meat mentioned Springsteen in only ONE interview lately. A fact that I have already pointed out earlier. I was using the dislike button to express my disatisfaction with what I was reading. That is exactly what it was there for. I didn't want to get into a war of words. I finally got to a point where I could no longer continue to simply sit back and read what was being said without responding in a more direct manner.

In case you haven't noticed: I didn't "start" this thread. The post was split from another thread and in fact intented to express my discontent with the repeated Bruce/Meat comparisons in Meat Loaf related threads because I don't think that you can compare the two. The other threads you mentioned were started in the NON-Meat Loaf area of this website. Believe it or not, there are a couple of members who like Meat Loaf AND Springsteen. (Shocking!)

You either missed some of his recent interviews (and statements on this forum) or you just don't read / listen to Meat Loaf's words carefully.

I didn't mention anything about what he said on this forum. How long has it been since he posted here anyway? I know it has been months. Something he posted months ago, I don't call recent. I know of one interview RECENTLY where he mentioned Springsteen. I don't think I have missed any of his recent interviews. The key word here is RECENTLY and what your definition is of that term. Hours, days, weeks, months, years?

I agree that the orginal question was a valid one in the Production thread. Unfortunately it started a debate about who was the better artist. Thus this thread was started.

As far as the info i posted about the threads is concerned, I simply copied and pasted the thread info DIRECTLY from the board. So if the board itself is showing incorrect info, then you can take it up with the mods. I am just going by what was published on the board.


I have also said previously that I am a Springsteen fan myself. I have in fact seen him live twice. So obviously, yes, I do believe that you can like both artists. I have mentioned numerous other artists that I am a fan of at different times on this board. My musical tastes runs from classical music - Bach, Beethoven, Mozart - to heavy metal, encompassing most genres in between. I would hardly call that narrow-minded. I don't have a problem with other artists. And I never said I did, so don't put words in my mouth or twist things that I have posted to suit your point.
I NEVER critized Meat for covering another artist either, Again DO NOT make it seem as if I have said things that I have NEVER said. Again you are attempting to twist things around.

This all started because I made a general comment expressing my feelings that were valid to the whole discussion on this thread. All future posts I made were simply to clarify and further elaborate on my original thoughts and opinions.

Maybe we have different concepts of "recent" or maybe I don't pick the right word sometimes. I'm not a native speaker of English, mea culpa! Meat has mentioned Bruce a lot in the last couple of months, especially around the time he promoted the last album.

I'm interested in music and what other people think about it. I'm not keen on locking horns with other members over trifles. Sadly, this thread has turned in a "who is the better artist" and "Springsteen fans don't like Meat Loaf" allegations. If you are such a big Meat Loaf fan and have issues with Springsteen being mentioned on this forum, why don't you contribute something to the Meat Loaf discussions (aside from clicking buttons) instead of complaining at length about the fact that The Boss appears in the off topic (!) section?

IF you bother to read all of what I post,you would know how off base what you are saying is. I DO NOT HAVE ISSUES WITH SPRINGSTEEN. I have stated that I am in fact a Springsteen fan. My whole ORIGINAL point was that I was dissatisfied with how this thread became a debate about who was better. The other part of my original post was that IN MY OPINION, this forum seemed to be discussing Bruce Springsteen more than Meat Loaf. And opinion that is shared by a few others.

There's a difference between changing the lyrics of a song or arranging it musically and writing something completely new from scratch. Especially when the person who does the latter does it for hundreds of songs, as opposed to the former for a few songs here and there :D

All of those threads were started with the intention of discussing Springsteen away from the rest of the Meat Loaf-related board, and in the one thread that is the exception of the rule, the discussion was instigated by Paul himself in regards to a valid question. When it got out of hand, the person who kept it going redirected to a better location that was out of the way. What's wrong with talking about another rock and roll hero in an off-topic forum titled OTHER ROCK AND ROLL HEROES? :roll: If you don't like it, just ignore it. These threads don't even come up on the home page :shock:

At the bolded part...I've never seen this. Did I miss something? Bruce has done his share of not-so-great work as much as anyone else has, and I don't think I've seen anyone denying it :O

Sorry, I'm not trying to back-seat mod. I was enjoying the discussion before it dissolved into crap >.<

OK.

A couple of points. Despite numnerous requests in numerous threads, please stop with the personal attacks and name calling. Now. Or leave the forum.

If you can't have a rationale discussion about something without it descending into the petty round and round arguments that we see here time and time again then I suggest you don't post. If you don't lilke something that has been said either discuss is personally via PM with the original poster or report the post.

Now, go away and listen to some music (Meat or Bruce or someone else I really don't care) and calm down while I clean this thread up a little bit.

:twisted: Thread cleaned.

Again :facepalm:

Remember this?

The rest of the staff and I had little (if any) inclination defending the non Meat musical leanings of the membership, but we still expect members to act in a respectful manner toward each other.

I am not a Bruce Springsteen fan, and have no interest in Bruce Springsteen, but I have no problem with Meat fans who are also fans of Bruce Springsteen discussing him here.

However, I can also see precious little benefit in making comparisons in this forum to Meat Loaf.
In fact, I think it would be a good idea that Meat was never mentioned in this forum.
Pointless comparisons to Meat will only lead to offense being given/taken and thyen it's back to the same old rows.

If the thread can't continue in a civilized manner, it's getting locked :lock:

Very well said. I think this gets to the heart of the matter. The comparison/debate part leads people taking offense, feeling the need to defend themselves, feelings get hurt and its the same old same old....

That is an awesome idea and very smart idea, Andy. For me, the right music can always sooth the soul and calm the mind. Time for some old fashioned classical music - it's the most calming music there is for me. Later on, it will time for some rock n roll!

I'm the same ... re: listening to classical music to calm myself... If my shoulders are all squoonshed up to my earlobes... listening to classical music can get the old shoulders back down to where they belong ... xo

itd be so awesome if they ever do a song together that comparisons could cease :)

I think that might only make it worse; a note for note side by side comparison - LOL. The idea of a Bruce/Meat collaboration would be good though. Both artists are very passionate about music in general. Would be interesting to listen to.

Truthfully, I don't think that would work so well. You have two guys that are usually used to owning a song or a stage, and I think that Meat would overpower Bruce in a setting like that. Not trying to start anything with that comment, it is just my honest opinion.

I have seen Bruce perform with other people like Sam Moore and Billy Joel, both of which I thought worked very well, and that I enjoyed, but I don't think it would work well with Meat.

Happy Thursday, meatie peeps !!!
 

Maybe it will come to be when Meat is inducted into the RnR Hall of Fame... and I have faith he will be !!! After inductions... all the inductees come out and sing together... and sometimes other muscians join in !!! ...