[PanicLord]

All - before reading the rest of my post, please be aware that I am not judging any person in particular and am in most cases simply documenting my understanding of the law from my uni studies! Trying to think like a lawyer

It is possible that I myself may have downloaded a couple of copyrighted things that I shouldn't have in the early days of downloads. Had I done so, I would have still known that it was wrong, felt guilty about it, and either got rid of those items entirely, or replaced them with legally obtained copies. So I do accept that it can generate sales if the thief is willing to mend their ways in the future, but sadly this doesn't always happen. And even if it does, it doesn't erase the earlier theft. Perhaps only salves the concience of the thief.

Originally Posted by WarioLoaf

The world should stop revolving around money is what i say. everything should be for free and stuff not released should be out their for the taking.

Yes, lovely. 2 questions though:
* Still go to work would you if you didn't get paid?
* Please could you post a list of all your worldly posessions and how we can get hold of them to eg this forum? I quite like your microphone and as you haven't made it publicly available I shall assume it's mine for the taking.

Originally Posted by robgomm

So is recording stuff off music channels and radio illegal?

Yes, technically you should assume so, unless you are specifically given the right to do so by the TV / Radio channel, who would have had to get permission from the copyright holder to enable them to do so etc.

However, there have been court cases about this and the courts uphold that it is perfectly reasonable to record such broadcasts for your own personal use and later viewing / listening etc.

I mean, the BBC would be very hard pressed to argue breach of copyright if you record something off Freeview BBC1 when they themselves are pushing Freeview recorders, unless it was specifically stated that the programme in question was excluded from this general ability.

Originally Posted by Adje

I think it was Bon Jovi that once said 'I don't mind people downloading our music as long as they visit the concerts'

That's fine them saying that, but it doesn't necessarily mean it is legal for you to do so. It may mean they wouldn't prosecute anyone who does it, but again that may be a decision out of their hands if they have signed over that right to the record label or whoever.

Originally Posted by Adje

In fact it's a good time investment if you have not that much to spend.

Well yes. I suspect burglary and money laundering are too, but that doesn't make it any less illegal or harmful to the victims.

Originally Posted by Adje

Too many times the 'honest' comsumer gets screwed by the greediness of music compagnies. And too many times (new) artists get screwed by the same compagnies.

I certainly agree with you there.

Originally Posted by Adje

It's too easy to blame it all on the downloaders.

Yes. Because it is their fault. No one forces you to steal the song / film / album etc, even if it is possible to do so.

Would you steal a car because you thought it was too expensive from the local dealer?

Originally Posted by jcmoorehead

Illegal downloading is such a huge issue to get into because it affects each artist differently plus you can get even deeper into it when it relates to singles/albums and even bootlegs.

Nope - it is very simple. I have highlighted a word from your quote that should help

I guess you could argue that it is a difficult issue to decide what constitutes legal vs illegal downloading, but again that's a bit of a red herring - it is illegal to obtain or make a copy of something that is copyrighted unless you are given the right to do so.

Imagine a music track that you created as an entirely original piece and which you therefore have automatic copyright over, and think of it as a possession in your house, like your TV. Clearly, if that is your TV only you have the right to have it and if anyone takes it without your permission they are stealing it. It is no different with the music track.

Originally Posted by jcmoorehead

The thing is from what I know a lot of bands don't make much money from album sales as it is, most of that money goes to the record company and it's generally the touring where artists make money. I'm not sure if thats true or not because you hear so many different things regarding the issue.

I would imagine that is true - but it is entirely irrelevant to whether it is illegal to steal it.

Originally Posted by jcmoorehead

The only music I download, I guess you could say illegally, are bootlegs but they're such a massive grey area. Most of the bootlegs I download are Dream Theater ones and they support people trading bootlegs.

Bootlegs are NOT a grey area. Again, a major clue is in the name. If you have not specifically and legally been given permission to obtain a copy of that copyright material then you have stolen it.

If the Dream Engine have the copyright in their live performances and have clearly and publicly stated that they support trading bootlegged copies of such, then I guess that would be sufficient. If they don't own the copyright, then it is not up to them in the first place.

Originally Posted by SueW

I work for an artist management company (i.e. we manage and work for musicians) so that will colour my opinion slightly but any illegal download is THEFT.

People seem to easily forget that this is the music BUSINESS and if you download music or movies illegally then you are taking money from the musicians (and yes the record companies).

It's all very well saying that you'll download it illegally and if you like it then you'll buy it but HMV don't have a policy that you can steal CDs and then come back and buy one if you actually like the music so it should be the same on the internet.

If some musicians choose to upload their own music and let people download it for free (or give away CDs at the concerts like Meat Loaf has) then that's their choice but if you are downloading illegally then you are taking away their right to choose how their music is distributed.

Of course, I realise that it is hard to police illegal downloads nowadays but just because something is easy to get away with, doesn't make it any less illegal.

Hear hear! Absolutely right.

Originally Posted by Holy One

If it's available to buy and is a reasonable price, then I have no problem paying for it. If it's not available to buy (ie a bootleg) then I have no issue downloading it; it should be free for everyone and shame on the record company for not putting out the product and making a few quid off it.

I partly agree with you in the sense that I hate the way the companies started throwing lawsuits around all over the place instead of making their products easily available at reasonable prices.

Originally Posted by robgomm

On another note, what about if I rent a film from lovefilm and then copy it? Technically I have paid for the movie right?

No, absolutely not, in the same way that you dont own a rented car or house. You have paid for access to that film or films for a limited period of time with no actual legal right to make a personal copy.

Originally Posted by robgomm

Regarding movies I have to say I love going to the cinema, went last night in fact to see the new Harry Potter, but I think the price they charge now is absurd. Cinema prices have just gone up and up and up over the years and theirs no excuse for it. I don't think they can even blame piracy because movie piracy didn't used to a huge problem. I couldn't say what started the problems really, the prices going up or piracy of movies, but it's too expensive now. £24 for 3 of us to see that film last night.

A couple of points here:

* Prices are quite high now and have certainly gone up. When I was 16 you could see a film for less than £6 most of the time, adult prices. But that was 15 years ago! There was no minimum wage back then, employment rights and costs (in terms of national insurance, tax, pensions etc) were probably lower, land costs (ie rent) were generally lower, electricity was I guess cheaper, there probably was less piracy (as I guess it was harder). Film production budgets were generally much lower. Plus, all the cinemas I now go to are WAY nicer places to watch a film than they were back then. Better projection, sound, seating, cooling etc. There are a huge number of factors that affect the price of the ticket, and I don't really think that £8 is really all that much when you take all that into account, and add in 13 years of inflation on top of it all!

* If you paid the £24 then you are not really demonstrating the view that it is too expensive

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

you'd conceivably only give copies to your friends anyway, which is way fewer people than a digital download would reach.

Exactly - the key is now that one person could copy it and suddenly millions if not billions of people can easily steal it by making their own copies of the copy.