Debate

[Moonlight shadow]

As Romney win I'm sick of laughing!



Let him go to hell politics. All those who want to talk politics that go to the Capitol.
Meat, you are a person built for many years, are very intelligent.
I join you in this effort to try to flush out these few characters who just want to destroy what you have earned during these 35 years.
I hope they let us enjoy both of us as your IT.

A big hug and know that will never abandon you "Cacho carne" (is how you are known in Spain)

Beyond that, I was disappointed with adjectives

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Sometimes I indeed wondered if it was really Meat considering those outbursts. Every time I met him in person he seems completely different.

Don't forget the man is an actor as well. And I am not saying that when you meet him in person, he is completely acting. Just saying that in public, like at a M&G he is putting his best self forward; omething we all do. In that situation he is more apt to keep certain feelings in check & work very hard at presenting a very positive in control image.
We have seen this side of him - the emotional outburst - before a bit. Remember Celebrity Apprentice and Gary Busey? He realized his mistake in that situation, admitted it and apologized. Hopefully this will be the same. He will realize that insulting his fans and the way he has treated people is not good behavior. And that an apology is required.

[wizardofodd]

I think what people have to consider is this, joining a fan club site is different to a follow on twitter or a like on facebook, it is a personal thing. Many folks have been here for years and come regularly, its like a routine. that is dedicated fans for you! This is a place to discuss his work with fans- but what is amazing about it is the fact the man himself posts here too and for him to come onto the site and post such harsh things is simply shocking and damn right stupid. BUT for those like myself who are upset with his remarks that continue to stay here are a sign of how passionate we are and how much we love the mans work, but as a fan there would certainly only be so much I could take before I chose to leave and withdraw. Loosing dedicated fans should be a really big deal for Meat, no matter if he disagreed with their opinion on a particular matter- voice or politics.

From what I remember from the Romney endorsement thread people were simply discussing, debating the pros and cons of a public endorsement and their personal views concerning the candidate. There is nothing wrong with that, that is an interesting and healthy discussion that should have taken place. As far as the thread concerning Meats vocals I didn't see, I don't know what was said but all I know is from what I can remember seeing on other threads their was very minimal personal attacks especially in comparison to the facebook wall. Its been blown out of proportion and I hope Meat apologises for his remarks. 97% of his fans? Jesus that's worse than Romney disregarding the 47%- oh political point, is that allowed?

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by wizardofodd

97% of his fans? Jesus that's worse than Romney disregarding the 47%- oh political point, is that allowed?

Clever.

[nikox1]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

Don't forget the man is an actor as well. And I am not saying that when you meet him in person, he is completely acting. Just saying that in public, like at a M&G he is putting his best self forward; omething we all do. In that situation he is more apt to keep certain feelings in check & work very hard at presenting a very positive in control image.
We have seen this side of him - the emotional outburst - before a bit. Remember Celebrity Apprentice and Gary Busey? He realized his mistake in that situation, admitted it and apologized. Hopefully this will be the same. He will realize that insulting his fans and the way he has treated people is not good behavior. And that an apology is required.

I get that your hurting, but c,mon don't bring hes acting ability into it, you do not know meat on a personal level. I'm not saying what he posted was nice, but what some post about him is not very nice at the best of times. To be honest I think alot of people are playing the violin a little bit hard IMO. Again he should not of lashed out the way he did, but there are alot of devils with angel wings on here.

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by nikox1

I get that your hurting, but c,mon don't bring hes acting ability into it, you do not know meat on a personal level. I'm not saying what he posted was nice, but what some post about him is not very nice at the best of times. To be honest I think alot of people are playing the violin a little bit hard IMO. Again he should not of lashed out the way he did, but there are alot of devils with angel wings on here.

I meant it as at times we all put on a different face; if we are hurting sometimes we act as if all is fine; if we are mad we don't let it show & act as if nothing is bothering us; if we are sad we put on a happy face. It has nothing to do with knowing him personally. It is what we all do as human beings - put on an act. To a certain degree we are all an actor at sometime. Meat is just better at it, since he is in fact one by trade. I wasn't making a commentary on his acting ability really. If i was saying anything about his acting, I was being truly complimentary.
I think the post b4 the one you quoted made my feelings pretty clear. Yes, to a certain extent I am hurt. I was not lashing out at him in anyway with what I was saying in the post you quoted.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by Wario

If he said stuff to your face ok, but but this is the internet. lets all grow some bat balls.

If I were to look up the word "irony" in a dictionary, I think the definition would contain this post. (And I'm not referring to you, Wario)

Originally Posted by Wario

again I cant stress how sad it is we lost a few fans, but its not like itll have any effect on the fanbase as a whole. so nothing that happened here is that big of a deal.

Not that big of a deal? I think it is to some fans who are clearly very hurt right now. I guess only some people's feelings are important around here.

Originally Posted by JayScout

I hardly think that Meat needs the "nice little cash bonus", nor does he do the M&Gs for that reason.

If he simply wanted to meet with fans he could do that without charging...just saying.

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

If he simply wanted to meet with fans he could do that without charging...just saying.

But he couldn't give 30 prime tickets away for free now could he? M&G comes with a ticket too. This is a WIN for the fans. If he did M&G for free, then prime seats would likely go to legal scalpers (ebay/stub hub etc) and we'd have to pay upwards of $400 per seat anyway. Meat doesn't do M&G for the $....I think he's made it real clear that he isn't $ driven. But the M&G are a promoters package with the tickets.

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

Don't forget the man is an actor as well. And I am not saying that when you meet him in person, he is completely acting. Just saying that in public, like at a M&G he is putting his best self forward; omething we all do. In that situation he is more apt to keep certain feelings in check & work very hard at presenting a very positive in control image.

I just don't buy what you are selling here. Seriously, the man is a professional and when he meets his fans at a M&G he is genuinely engaged. If he's had a bad day with the venue or travel or traffic or his soup was cold, it's all checked at the door before he meets his fans. He's appreciative of them coming (sometimes thousands of miles) and he makes fans feel special, as well as, in the moment. I always found him relaxed and in a great mental place for socializing.

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

We have seen this side of him - the emotional outburst - before a bit. Remember Celebrity Apprentice and Gary Busey? He realized his mistake in that situation, admitted it and apologized. Hopefully this will be the same. He will realize that insulting his fans and the way he has treated people is not good behavior. And that an apology is required.

It's his choice to apologize, but I see what Nikox1 sees. Devils with angelic wings....now playing a violin. 97% of the people will get the invite, 3% of those may be in the US unable to accept and of the remaining, maybe 50% will accept. If everyone is worried and fighting for their friends, why doesn't the friend try and get a message to Meat themselves? They have already made up their mind anyway haven't they?

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by suzieq

But he couldn't give 30 prime tickets away for free now could he? M&G comes with a ticket too. This is a WIN for the fans. If he did M&G for free, then prime seats would likely go to legal scalpers (ebay/stub hub etc) and we'd have to pay upwards of $400 per seat anyway. Meat doesn't do M&G for the $....I think he's made it real clear that he isn't $ driven. But the M&G are a promoters package with the tickets.

Which I wouldn't pay for, personally. I'm not singling Meat out, either- his are actually somewhat reasonable compared to what some artists charge, many of which don't even include the M&G. Often they include a bunch of what I consider worthless (or certainly not worth what you pay for it) merchandise. You want a front row seat for Bon Jovi? That will cost you $1500. Oh, but you get to keep your folding chair.

There are other means to thwart scalpers, if that's the aim. Springsteen does a lottery for the front row (the whole floor is general admission); scalpers can't sell a "front row seat", because there is no such thing. He's also done will-call only (with ID required) for the primo seats, and paperless tickets, which are non-transferable. Admitted, there are still ways around these measures (nothing is totally scalper-proof), but it slows the scalpers down.

Some artists have been known to do the M&G plus prime ticket package to benefit charity; now that, I might go for.

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Which I wouldn't pay for, personally. I'm not singling Meat out, either- his are actually somewhat reasonable compared to what some artists charge, many of which don't even include the M&G. Often they include a bunch of what I consider worthless (or certainly not worth what you pay for it) merchandise. You want a front row seat for Bon Jovi? That will cost you $1500. Oh, but you get to keep your folding chair.

There are other means to thwart scalpers, if that's the aim. Springsteen does a lottery for the front row (the whole floor is general admission); scalpers can't sell a "front row seat", because there is no such thing. He's also done will-call only (with ID required) for the primo seats, and paperless tickets, which are non-transferable. Admitted, there are still ways around these measures (nothing is totally scalper-proof), but it slows the scalpers down.

Some artists have been known to do the M&G plus prime ticket package to benefit charity; now that, I might go for.

I would and I have....because he's totally worth it.

Kudos to Bruce for an alternate way, but I like the way Meat has his promoters doing it (and they avoid the scalpers too), it's nice and organized and you get the M&G with the prime seats. My local casino show that Meat does....no M&G are ever available AND you can only ever get as close as 3rd row with a legal scalper. Venue holds the cards regarding front 2 rows. Still, I hold to my opinion that Meat doesn't do the M&G for the $.

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by suzieq

I just don't buy what you are selling here. Seriously, the man is a professional and when he meets his fans at a M&G he is genuinely engaged. If he's had a bad day with the venue or travel or traffic or his soup was cold, it's all checked at the door before he meets his fans. He's appreciative of them coming (sometimes thousands of miles) and he makes fans feel special, as well as, in the moment. I always found him relaxed and in a great mental place for socializing.

I am not trying to SELL anything, just expressing a thought. FACT is he is an actor and he can act. That is what I am selling. so you don't believe he is a good actor? OR you don't believe he can act?
And if you you had taken the time to read my post after Nixon's you would see that I clarifed what I said. You and I are actually saying the same thing. You are going to twist my words around for your own reasons, i get that.
As I said b4, I have the balls to stand by EVERYTHING I have said about Meat - both the positive & the negative. Up until this situation I had always been supportive of him and his work. I have admired him, said postive things about him, defended him when others have criticized him. I don't think anyway can dispute that too much.
I have been a fan of the man & his music since I was 14 years old. For once I disagree with him, since he is behaving badly. I have always spoken my mind. Anyone who truly knows me, knows that.
I have said that I am still a fan of his music and will always be. AT the moment I am disillusioned and a bit hurt by the man as a person, which I have also said b4. I am not alone in that feeling. If I were alone in that then this thread would be pointless, because there would be no DEBATE.

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

I am not trying to SELL anything, just expressing a thought. FACT is he is an actor and he can act. That is what I am selling. so you don't believe he is a good actor? OR you don't believe he can act?

His ability to act has NOTHING to do with M&G interactions period. He's a professional. I can put on a smile going to work and I'M NO ACTRESS.

As a separate note, he's a damn good actor.

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

And if you you had taken the time to read my post after Nixon's you would see that I clarifed what I said. You and I are actually saying the same thing. You are going to twist my words around for your own reasons, i get that.

You are backpedaling NOT clarifying.

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

As I said b4, I have the balls to stand by EVERYTHING I have said about Meat - both the positive & the negative. Up until this situation I had always been supportive of him and his work. I have admired him, said postive things about him, defended him when others have criticized him. I don't think anyway can dispute that too much.
AT the moment I am disillusioned and a bit hurt by the man as a person, which I have also said b4.

Your disillusionment is your own fault. He picked a candidate, you ran amuck on his page, he responded multiple times in a respectful manner there and now you come here and start the whole thing up all over again and NOW you're the victim. Please stand by your words and be a martyr for them ...go ahead and claim you did nothing wrong, just stated your opinion right?.... good on you.

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by suzieq

His ability to act has NOTHING to do with M&G interactions period. He's a professional. I can put on a smile going to work and I'M NO ACTRESS.

As a separate note, he's a damn good actor.



You are backpedaling NOT clarifying.



Your disillusionment is your own fault. He picked a candidate, you ran amuck on his page, he responded multiple times in a respectful manner there and now you come here and start the whole thing up all over again and NOW you're the victim. Please stand by your words and be a martyr for them ...go ahead and claim you did nothing wrong, just stated your opinion right?.... good on you.

Yet again, you are trying to twist my words. I realized after I read Nixon's post, that my original post may have been misunderstood, which is why i did take the time to clarify what I was trying to say. I wasn't back pedaling, just clarifying
ONCE AGAIN, my beef was not with his endorsement of Romney. My beef was with his immature and generally bad behavior in dealing with the aftermath. the last straw for me was him insulting the majority of his fan base and me personally. I actuallly feel honored that he singled me out; it means that he was paying attention to what I was saying and i made him think.
I will have to remember that you feel that insulting others is perfectly acceptable & adult behavior.
I didn't run amuck, I stated my disappointment with his endorsement and my feelings on what I felt to be immature and objectionable behavior in the aftermath. Yes, OTHERS, did run amuck. He responded TWICE to one of my posts on FB; the first was with some respect, the 2nd wasn't.
If someone comes at me, I will stand up for myself.
Yes, it is MY FEELING that I am disillusioned. Again, I am not the only one that feels that way. And ONCE AGAIN, if there wasn't anyone else that felt that way then this thread called DEBATE would be pointless & wouldn't exist.
I am NOT starting it up all over again. People like you keep coming at me and I will repeat AGAIN, I DO STAND BY THEY THINGS I HAVE SAID. People like you just make me keep on repeating it.
I am neither a victim or a matyr and I never claimed to be. Even though I may have been harsh, I didn't do anything wrong. I did state MY OPINION. I say what I think and mean what I say.

[Evil Ernie]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Please, please, tell me you're joking

In some peoples defence, the thread title isn't very clear.

I understand that you don't want to edit ML's post, but the opening post just gives the impression of chaos and a free for all.

I think that you should edit the thread title to be more clear.

Originally Posted by jools35

Meat takes take out to post on this forum
He does not have to.

You know what? You're right.

Some people just aren't cut out for the internet.

[evil nickname]

Originally Posted by Evil Ernie

Some people just aren't cut out for the internet.

Ding-dong. We have a winner.

[carole]

Originally Posted by robgomm

Lucy, money is irrelavant, people make their choice to do all those things or not. He knows we don't forget him, he's not daft.

Can't you see that this is all a culmination of many years and years of Meat bashing here on this site by the same old few, and finally Meat has snapped and decided to do something about it?

To be honest, whoever was offended by the 97% sentence (which was a fake number anyway as explained) probably deserves to be in it, because if you know you're a good fan, and a respectful person who shows consideration for Meats feelings when posting, then your instant reaction is, well he doesn't mean me so i'm not offended. That was my reaction and that's why I have no problem with Meat standing up for himself.

I never for one second considered myself to be among the 97%, so I wasn't offended either.

Carole

[Kathy]

I didn't read the "voice thread." I saw it start, and thought "ohhhh jeez." So I can't go down through and say, "Ok this post would hurt MY feelings, if it were about me," "This one would irritate me," or "THIS one would make me cry." I can imagine how it might feel, however, to have a group of people quite dispassionately discussing a part of me, a vital part of me with which I express myself artistically.

Discussing what you love most about how Meat expresses himself vocally is one thing, but criticising his voice itself is quite another. Someone asked why Meat didn't take the constructive criticism on board. We're not talking set lists or song arrangements or the Paradise skit here! I very frankly don't believe there is any such thing as "constructive criticism" of Meat's voice, unless your name happens to be Eric Vetro.

Meat is a nice guy; many of you know that. He doesn't become angry without reason. For him to post as angrily as he did, he must have been really hurting. Knowing that, I felt terrible when I read his first post, but at no point did I feel his anger was directed at me, so I took no offense.

Instead of taking offense where none was intended, those of us who do care about Meat as a person (as well as an artist) will continue to support him. My hope is that a few loyal fans who do feel offended now might reconsider, and upon realizing Meat has no reason to be angry with them, let it pass. Those on this board who don't care about Meat, or who feel no loyalty toward him, might question why they are here. "Just for the music" isn't good enough. The man himself is here, so this forum is as much about him as it is about his work.

-Kathy

.

[carole]

Originally Posted by suzieq

I just don't buy what you are selling here. Seriously, the man is a professional and when he meets his fans at a M&G he is genuinely engaged. If he's had a bad day with the venue or travel or traffic or his soup was cold, it's all checked at the door before he meets his fans. He's appreciative of them coming (sometimes thousands of miles) and he makes fans feel special, as well as, in the moment. I always found him relaxed and in a great mental place for socializing.

That's exactly right, when I went to some of the M & G's in the UK during the Casa De Carne tour, Meat was being hammered by some of the press over there, the weather was horrendous for some of the shows and Meat and the band had got lost on the way to one of the shows. But he was warm and gracious to all of us, and even made jokes about what the press were saying about him. He really was a trooper.

Carole

[olblueeyes]

Originally Posted by carole

I never for one second considered myself to be among the 97%, so I wasn't offended either.

Carole

Neither did I and so neither was I. There seem to be a lot of peeps taking offence on behalf of others (a national pastime thesedays it seems).

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[lorenzoduke]

Originally Posted by olblueeyes

Neither did I and so neither was I. There seem to be a lot of peeps taking offence on behalf of others (a national pastime thesedays it seems).

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If someone tells 97% of a club or group I'm part of to go to hell, I'm not going to act like I couldn't care less, regardless of whether I feel like I'm personally counted amongst that number.

[Mr. Happy]

Originally Posted by Kathy

I didn't read the "voice thread." I saw it start, and thought "ohhhh jeez." So I can't go down through and say, "Ok this post would hurt MY feelings, if it were about me," "This one would irritate me," or "THIS one would make me cry." I can imagine how it might feel, however, to have a group of people quite dispassionately discussing a part of me, a vital part of me with which I express myself artistically.

None of the posts in the thread warranted the response it got. Not. One. The absolute WORST statement made in that thread was "Meat's current singing style does not appeal to me." That was the exact level of consideration it was delivered with, too. There was "dispassionate discussion." Most of it wasn't even centered around modern Meat. At the time it was closed, it was praising Welcome to the Neighborhood era Meat.

For those of you who never got around to reading that thread, it wasn't "let's put his voice under a microscope and tear it to shreds!" It was a discussion about the different periods of Meat's career and how his voice differed between them. Like how it became more raw starting around the early 2000s. There was no one criticising anything. It was just...discussion. Normally what you do on a DISCUSSION BOARD.

Originally Posted by Kathy

Discussing what you love most about how Meat expresses himself vocally is one thing, but criticising his voice itself is quite another.

Except this didn't happen.

Originally Posted by Kathy

Meat is a nice guy; many of you know that. He doesn't become angry without reason..instead of taking offense where none was intended...

Did you not read the first few posts of this thread? We were told we were evil, should go to hell, not buy any of his future work or attend any concerts. Oh, and we would be thrown out of the roof if we ever went to a Meet and Greet.

Good thing he's not planning to tour Australia again

Originally Posted by Kathy

The man himself is here, so this forum is as much about him as it is about his work.

This is fair enough. Thing is, I respect this. So do most, if not all, other people here. That doesn't change the fact that 97% of us are scum though, apparently.

I get the impression that Meat simply does not like people talking about him full stop, ignoring whether it is positive or negative. And that's also fair enough. What's NOT fair enough is that if you know you don't like that (and you're going to get it, when you have a career as prolific as Meat's) is going out of your way to actively find discussion and attack these people for being "enemies" (I'm sorry, but what the ~~~~), regardless of whether or not it was mean or not.

This is a fan forum. Everyone here is a fan of Meat Loaf. To say otherwise it's just stupid. Meat, if don't like people talking about Meat Loaf, then don't go out of your way read it and ruin the experience for everyone.

Sorry for singling you out, Kathy I've seen a few people going "Oh...I didn't read the thread, but the reaction must be justified anyway!" No, no it is not justified, and neither is you jumping to conclusions without reading the thread in question. I can understand being offended from the reaction to the politics thing. The abuse from that was plain unfair. This, though. Not so much

Originally Posted by robgomm

To be honest, whoever was offended by the 97% sentence (which was a fake number anyway as explained) probably deserves to be in it, because if you know you're a good fan, and a respectful person who shows consideration for Meats feelings when posting, then your instant reaction is, well he doesn't mean me so i'm not offended. That was my reaction and that's why I have no problem with Meat standing up for himself.

There is not. One. Single. Poster. On. This. Site. Not ONE that I can think of off the top of my head that deserves to be a part of this so called 97%. I think it's ridiculous to propose this at all when EVERYONE here is a fan, otherwise they wouldn't be here at all. Everyone is respectful of Meat here. They have to be, otherwise they'd never hear the end of it

[chairboys]

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

EVERYONE here is a fan, [I]otherwise they wouldn't be here at all.

Exactly, Mr. Happy. Although I'm beginning to wonder from what I've read if that statement is now out of date!

[JennaG]

Originally Posted by Kathy

Meat is a nice guy; many of you know that. He doesn't become angry without reason. For him to post as angrily as he did, he must have been really hurting. Knowing that, I felt terrible when I read his first post, but at no point did I feel his anger was directed at me, so I took no offense.

Instead of taking offense where none was intended, those of us who do care about Meat as a person (as well as an artist) will continue to support him.

I agree with this. When I read the comments, I looked at them from Meat's perspective and asked myself 'what has made him post those remarks' I could see that there was a lot of hurt underlying the comments. I don't know the exact reasons why he was so hurt but he's not the only person to have ever said something he doesn't mean in a state of emotion and I'm more than happy to show him a little bit of understanding.

If people are offended by the remarks, I'm not going to say they are in the wrong or try to change their minds because that's up to them. I didn't believe I was included the 97% that was mentioned so I personally did not take offence.

[olblueeyes]

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke

If someone tells 97% of a club or group I'm part of to go to hell, I'm not going to act like I couldn't care less, regardless of whether I feel like I'm personally counted amongst that number.

Indeed, my point exactly - offence taken whether the statement is aimed at you or not.

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