Debate

[Cole]

Yes thank yo very much...CHSIB :)

[Evil Ernie]

Originally Posted by R.

Right, that's his stage name, his trademark. Imagine there was a website with your name on top and on that site people would post comments like I mentioned above regarding your work/art over and over again - how would you react?

As I said, some people are not cut out for the internet.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by TheDoode

With regard to the reply above: I think it says it all really; there's no point in even attempting to have a discussion if you're going to respond in a snide, derogatory way to what was a sincere post.

Yes it was rather, I do apologise. I can't think what came over me.

Again, I think you've chosen to be quite selective with what you've read.

No, I read every post. What I should have said was that it was the impression I was left with. Perhaps Meat did the ame.

I'll suggest that you PM me.

Thank you, but no. I learn

[Adje]

Originally Posted by R.

And now, look at the top left corner of this page. Right, that's his stage name, his trademark. Imagine there was a website with your name on top and on that site people would post comments like I mentioned above regarding your work/art over and over again - how would you react?

Thanks for asking. My answer: Not the way Meat did. But you don't have to take my word for it.

I believe Meat started with

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

97% of you can go to hell , don't buy my CD, don't buy tickets ... stay away from me .
You come to a meet and greet I will have you removed from the room and the building with your money back !!

I wouldn't say that to my fans. Are the people here always 100% positive? Thank God no. We're not a cult we are a fan community.

Would I handle things differently? Absolutely.

You see, and I mentioned this more often, Meat comes here, most of the time only responds on the negative he sees and eventually bursts in flames.

If this site would have my name and I was carrying the succes I would at least acknowledge the people here that do suport me and, maybe this is a difference, discuss their unlikings as an adult.

There is no way you can please everybody but if you're in the business for 48 years and come here to feed on negativity (which, by the way, isn't always as negative as Meat claims) you're bound to get upset every time you come here.

Sorry R. but I couldn't disagree with you more. I appreciate you come out and express your opinion but the outburst of Meat Loaf here was uncalled for. No matter how much words from posts you quote. And certainly if all these words come back in one single post against a fictional 97% of the fans.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by R.

Don't look at just one thread only. Look further and take time into your consideration. Do you think this issue started just recently? I'll answer that question for you: No. I just skimmed through recent posts and wrote down a few words that got my attention. Here they are: And now, look at the top left corner of this page. Right, that's his stage name, his trademark. Imagine there was a website with your name on top and on that site people would post comments like I mentioned above regarding your work/art over and over again - how would you react?

Were I as passionate and committed to what I did? .. I would be hurt, disappointed, tired of it, baffled, and I might well lose my patience and my temper at a final straw I felt laid on my back.

Caryl

[suzieq]

I agree with R. 100%!!!!

[ninja]

Originally Posted by suzieq

I agree with R. 100%!!!!

me too.

[Adje]

Originally Posted by R.

Don't look at just one thread only. Look further and take time into your consideration. Do you think this issue started just recently? I'll answer that question for you: No. I just skimmed through recent posts and wrote down a few words that got my attention. Here they are:

fairly good, struggles, far from perfect, terrible, screaming, weakest, disappointing, autotune, terrible, stupid, bad, lying, worst, painful, disrespectful, mediocre, horrid, slow, passionless, flat

Btw what's wrong if you find that Meat's voice was fairly good? or if he Struggled. Or even if it's far from perfect? He's human and we should be able to point it out. Half of your list are observations from fans. Sorry if in your world Meat never missed a note. But in the real World we think differently and we like to share that with other Meat Loaf fans who saw, hear and can comment on it.

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by R.

Don't look at just one thread only. Look further and take time into your consideration. Do you think this issue started just recently? I'll answer that question for you: No. I just skimmed through recent posts and wrote down a few words that got my attention. Here they are:
Quote:
fairly good, struggles, far from perfect, terrible, screaming, weakest, disappointing, autotune, terrible, stupid, bad, lying, worst, painful, disrespectful, mediocre, horrid, slow, passionless, flat

To be fair though I have caught flack for pointing out that on here every show is "perfect", "amazing", "note perfect", etc. There are posts that go to either extreme. Meat seems to be preoccupied with looking for the negatives or paying more attention to them. I wasn't exactly popular for backing his decision to do the endorsement either. Yet at times I have been clear that his voice is always changing, I think sometimes due to how much rest between shows. I thought he sounded fine in-person back in August. I try to call them as I see them and there is little middle ground on the forum, it is either "perfect" or it "sucks" on here it seems at times. Sometimes both are true (although "perfect" is very rare by definition), sometimes it lies in between. Probably most of the time it doesn't really deserve to be said to "suck" either.

[R.]

Originally Posted by Adje

Thanks for asking. My answer: Not the way Meat did. But you don't have to take my word for it.

I believe Meat started with


I wouldn't say that to my fans. Are the people here always 100% positive? Thank God no. We're not a cult we are a fan community.

Would I handle things differently? Absolutely.

You see, and I mentioned this more often, Meat comes here, most of the time only responds on the negative he sees and eventually bursts in flames.

If this site would have my name and I was carrying the succes I would at least acknowledge the people here that do suport me and, maybe this is a difference, discuss their unlikings as an adult.

There is no way you can please everybody but if you're in the business for 48 years and come here to feed on negativity (which, by the way, isn't always as negative as Meat claims) you're bound to get upset every time you come here.

Sorry R. but I couldn't disagree with you more. I appreciate you come out and express your opinion but the outburst of Meat Loaf here was uncalled for. No matter how much words from posts you quote. And certainly if all these words come back in one single post against a fictional 97% of the fans.

Now, what if that behaviour would last for 5 years and longer?

Originally Posted by Adje

Btw what's wrong if you find that Meat's voice was fairly good? or if he Struggled. Or even if it's far from perfect? He's human and we should be able to point it out. Half of your list are observations from fans.

All of them.

Originally Posted by Adje

Sorry if in your world Meat never missed a note. But in the real World we think differently and we like to share that with other Meat Loaf fans who saw, hear and can comment on it.

Quit interesting being called delusional from someone who knows absolutley nothing about me. Is this that what you call respect or did I just read that wrong?

[Adje]

Originally Posted by R.

Now, what if that behaviour would last for 5 years and longer?

Again it's also a big part how you handle it yourself. Meat doesn't seem to handle any for of critique quite well. You can hardly blame me for it.

If he went out, focussing more on the positive (which is more than plenty on this board) he would have a more pleasent time.

Originally Posted by R.

All of them.

Interesting. Does this mean you think people here should only point out what they considered to be good or fantastic. And keep their mouths shut if they consider it differently?

Originally Posted by R.

Quit interesting being called delusional from someone who knows absolutley nothing about me. Is this that what you call respect or did I just read that wrong?

I haven't called you delusional. I guess you really read that wrong. But sorry if I gave you that impression.

[R.]

Originally Posted by loaferman61

To be fair though I have caught flack for pointing out that on here every show is "perfect", "amazing", "note perfect", etc. There are posts that go to either extreme.

True.

Originally Posted by loaferman61

Meat seems to be preoccupied with looking for the negatives or paying more attention to them.

True again. Most likely because of the top left corner I already mentioned.

[wizardofodd]

I get Meats anger, I understand his frustration, he gets criticised on facebook and on twitter and then comes to the site that bares his name, his fan club and finds critics here too, some who are perhaps far too harsh. Difficult to take for an emotional guy such as Meat. BUT 97% is a ridiculous exaggeration and a foolish statement, his words were wrong and hurtful to many, he over stepped the line. There is no denying it. To come to a tight community which as a whole represent a small but dedicated proportion of your fan base and use such language is just stupid. However in a way I am glad he vented his rage here, took out his anger in a more personal and arguably forgiving environment because if he did it on FB or twitter then IMO it would have been even more damaging to his character.

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by suzieq

If everyone is worried and fighting for their friends, why doesn't the friend try and get a message to Meat themselves? They have already made up their mind anyway haven't they?

If fans have the right to speak up for Meat, fans have the right to speak up for their friends.

Originally Posted by Evil Ernie

In some peoples defence, the thread title isn't very clear.

And if it were changed now some people would wonder where the feck it is
See R's post. Doesn't matter if it's called "Debate" "Marmite" or "Kevin", we all know what the thread is about. I've posted it myself several times.

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke

If someone tells 97% of a club or group I'm part of to go to hell, I'm not going to act like I couldn't care less, regardless of whether I feel like I'm personally counted amongst that number.

Same here.
Rightly or wrongly I support this community.
I think that the minority of critical posts gets more attention than the majority of postitive and supportive posts.
It's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease

But I thought that Meat was far too harsh in his distain of this forum and the people who post here.
He said "97%"
In the last 24 hours, 185 registered users have visited this forum. Take into account that this thread has resulted in it being a heavy traffic day too.
That means (on a busy day) there are less than 6 good fans on this forum. The rest are deemed evil.
If you read posts by six people you consider fans, it means that you are not.
So yes, I find that unfair, and insulting.

Originally Posted by olblueeyes

And even more who are still clinging to this 97% figure, that Meat has already since said was exaggerated.

Then it would be nice to have a new estimate.

Originally Posted by CarylB

there was a preponderance of posts suggesting that his best days were over.

Perhaps because some people believe that?
I myself said I thought his 88 Live album was the best i'd ever heard.
On the face ot it, if you really really want to take my post that way, you could say that I was saying Meat peaked in 88 and it's all downhill from there.

But I also posted that I still got a lot of pleasure from his work, that i've ALWAYS taken a lot of pleasure from his work. From the first era to the present day.
Now is that really such an offensive thing to say?
You didn't, Caryl, because you liked my post.

I say, with no problem or regret at all, that I peaked as a magician at about 20 years old. It was at my most creative (in that field) my interest in the field was still strong, the hands were fast and the brain was quick (believe it or not ).

That doesn't mean that I still can't change your religion with a deck of cards.

Being past your peak is no big deal as long as you can still do it better than anyone else.

Originally Posted by CarylB

as I think the moderator mentioned when he stopped you discussing on another thread.

Yes, I stopped the discussion on the general condition of Meat's voice on the Endorcement thread.
Like this one, that thread was far too hot as it was without adding a big off topic debate into the mix.

Originally Posted by melon

I've not said that he wasn't, but I see little point in going on about it over and over. I do believe that he probably feels pretty bad about it, as any decent person would.

Because folks have been insulted, and are pretty pissed off about it.
You might as well ask Meat why he feels the need to go on and on about things he's read on the forum or on facebook.

At least the things posted here are generally honest opinions that are posted with no other reason to express themselves to other fans.
They are not posted with an intent to hurt Meat, or to insult him personally.

What Meat posted here was intended to offend, hurt, and upset.
That's the difference IMHO.

If someone treats you like that, you shouldn't turn your back on them, not if you love them, but in all fairness it's perfectly normal to stay pissed off at them until they say that magic word, sorry.

If I spoke to Meat the way he spoke to us, I wouldn't expect him to forgive me until I apologised. And quite frankly, I don't know if he would. I don't believe he has that much interest in me to think forgivness warrented if I spoke to him like that.

As for myself, I don't need an apology from Meat.
I still love the guy.
But it would have been a nice gesture, and it would have gone a long way, and brought back a lot of respect from a lot of folks

Originally Posted by melon

I understand what its like to blow your top, and its a pretty crap feeling when you look at what you've done.

Hell yeah, we've all done it.

Originally Posted by melon

I'm still behind this guy 100% and never doubted it.

Me too.
But i'm still behind this community too.
If two of my friends fall out, I don't have to hate one of them.
I might not agree with one of them has done, but it doesn't mean that I shoyld desert them.
The two of them heal the rift, and things go on.

Originally Posted by TheDoode

And for the record the moderation stopped 'a' discussion on another thread, he didn't personally stop 'me' from discussion. The subject was deemed off topic, hence the new thread which was on topic.

That's right, and I could have fecking killed you for opening that thread
As i've said (several times) as soon as I saw the thread appear I thought it wouldn't get past the first page before it was locked, but I was proved wrong. The posts were respectful, and mostly positive.
Nothing was said to be hurtful or snide, it was just fans talking about their favourite artists various eras. I couldn't argue with it.

[Adje]

Originally Posted by R.

True.

True again. Most likely because of the top left corner I already mentioned.

Maybe this should be an adoration board then instead of a discussion one.

Anyway I'm out Ajax is Playing Man City. And as an Ajax fan I expect the worst

[R.]

Originally Posted by Adje

Again it's also a big part how you handle it yourself. Meat doesn't seem to handle any for of critique quite well. You can hardly blame me for it.

Did I blame you? I'm pretty sure I didn't.

Originally Posted by Adje

Interesting. Does this mean you think people here should only point out what they considered to be good or fantastic. And keep their mouths shut if they consider it differently?

No.

Originally Posted by Adje

I haven't called you delusional. I guess you really read that wrong. But sorry if I gave you that impression.

Ok, I just read that wrong then.

[TheDoode]

Originally Posted by Adje:
Interesting. Does this mean you think people here should only point out what they considered to be good or fantastic. And keep their mouths shut if they consider it differently?

Originally Posted by R.

No.

Are you sure? I understand that this is your site, but that does come across as being the general philosophy.

[R.]

Originally Posted by TheDoode

Originally Posted by Adje:
Interesting. Does this mean you think people here should only point out what they considered to be good or fantastic. And keep their mouths shut if they consider it differently?




Are you sure? I understand that this is your site, but that does come across as being the general philosophy.

Yes, I am sure. Otherwise this thread wouldn't even exist.

[Adje]

Originally Posted by R.

No.

Then what is wrong with saying "Meat Loaf struggled, wasn't far from perfect,' or 'his voice was fairly good' ?

It's not a rude word choice or anything. I agree it's not positive but it seems honest opinion.

[R.]

Originally Posted by Adje

Then what is wrong with saying "Meat Loaf struggled, wasn't far from perfect,' or 'his voice was fairly good' ?

It's not a rude word choice or anything. I agree it's not positive but it seems honest opinion.

Who decides what's rude or not? You or the person you are talking/writing to?

Off Topic: How's Ajax doing?

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

I don't hate him either. I have always admired him. I do dislike some of his recent behavior. As you said it has been immature. at the very least. I will always love his music. It just speaks to my soul. That will never change. I will definitely be buying his next album.
AS far as going to a future live show, that will depend on his own behavior. As much as I love the music, I wouldn't feel right about supporting an artist who has in fact PERSONALLY insulted me! Don't forget there was an entire thread started by him specifically to respond to ME. Yes it was moved over to this thread. That makes this all very personal to me. I was singled out and PERSONALLY insulted by a very grown man who I had always admired and would expect better & more mature behavior from. I am not sure whether to laugh at the absurdity of it or cry because it hurt so much.
I did say some harsh things so I am a bit to blame. I was just expressing my feelings and even though I may have been harsh, I stand by the sentiment & truthfulness of what I said. As an artist who, by the very nature of his career, chose to live his life in the public eye, Meat should be better able & prepared to handle criticism from the public. Yes, he is human. Still to attack his fans and make it personal is unacceptable to me. Yes, it hurts
Obviously something I said, affected him on a deep level. If there was absolutely no truth to anything I said, I would think he would just ignore it and laugh it off. Usually people react like that when there is enough truth in what is being said to strike at the heart of the matter and touch a nerve.
Again, harsh or not, I do have "the balls" to stand by what I have said. You - both Meat and the rest of the fans - can agree or disagree with me. That is just how I feel.

For years we have walked on eggshells on this board about what is acceptable to say lest Meat read it. Never mind that most of the time it was positive, almost to a sickening degree by some, Meat chooses to read the stuff he feels is negative and react badly to it. I am very sad because his last interaction with the board a month or so ago was quite pleasant and he shared a lot of good information, now he tells 97% where to go. Almost as has been said like it was posted by 2 different people though I am sure Meat did his own postings. I don't know if I'm in the 97% or the 3% but I'm going to call them like I see them. Telling your loyal fans who almost worship you to go to hell is probably a bad idea IMO. At least I feel like the eggshells are gone, hopefully for good.

[TheDoode]

Originally Posted by R.

Yes, I am sure. Otherwise this thread wouldn't even exist.

Yeah, I was surprised by this. It's a good thing; a step in the right direction.

A small one that needs working on if you want to keep people posting here.

I'm optimistic

[TheDoode]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Yes it was rather, I do apologise. I can't think what came over me.

Again, that really says it all If you can't be civil (or even back up your own arguments without resorting to sarcasm and snide remarks), then I'd rather we just didn't.

[Kathy]

Originally Posted by suzieq

I agree with R. 100%!!!!

So do I, Suzieq!! I have a big complaint for him, however: R. needs to implement a TWO Thumbs Up button, so I can use it on his post (lol)

[Vickip]

Originally Posted by Kathy

So do I, Suzieq!! I have a big complaint for him, however: R. needs to implement a TWO Thumbs Up button, so I can use it on his post (lol)

I second that