Debate

[renegadeangel]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Nor do I. However, I really don't think much is served by continuously speculating. Only Meat could perhaps say with accuracy what culminated in him losing his temper. I have a lot of respect for your intellect Michael, and have to believe you can see that the thread he referred to was perhaps more the tip of an iceberg. As I said, Rainer's posts are worthy of consideration by those who haven't considered this.


Dead on with this. Meat had a bad day with more on his mind than we have any right to know. Really none of our business.

As Lucy said a good while ago .. he messed up, but who of us hasn't? Personally I think it's time to either accept that and move on, forgiving or not depending on your hilltop; or to make a decision as to whether you can still be a fan or not, and go with that.


If anything it just goes to show how human we all really are. I do think that an apology would smooth things over but I'm personally not too hung up on that. I'm far more interested in what he intends to do regarding upcoming albums and tours.



Meanwhile, having responded to your perfectly acceptable post, I shall ignore attempts from any others to point-score, flame and provoke. They are obvious however cleverly the coats they wear are stitched

[Mr. Happy]

Originally Posted by renegadeangel

Your kidding right?

I was being a sarcastic prick. It was a little closer to outright trolling than I intended, but yes, I was kidding.

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by Nici

Robgomm: what you just did is really dis respectful (talking about respect on this forum)

You're absolutely right. Funnily enough I was about to remove that post as I realised it was uncalled for. I received a fully deserved infraction for going too far so I have been fairly punished. Apologies to all offended.

[R.]

Originally Posted by melon

We've been over this before (like many other things around here) that he was not angry because of people disagreeing with his choice (which is ok for people to do, and was being done, imo & to memory, respectfully) he even came on line and said that was not the reason, it was the voice thread that made him angry, and I can understand why.

Yes, it was the voice thread.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

As far as I can understand it was the endorsement thraed that had the quoted words that R. pointed out in them (about the endorsement performance which many disliked etc). The voice thread was a more general thread about people's preferred Meat voice era.
In what way was the latter majorly disrespectful?

No, those words were picked from review threads, not the endorsement thread. In a nutshell: Top left corner says "Meat Loaf". Another thread about his voice, his unique selling point, which could be understood as "His voice was way better 20 years ago". Do you get the picture?

Originally Posted by Sarge

R., this is your forum, so you can do with it whatever you want. You make the rules. Anyway, the fact you or one of the mods deleted my post in which I said this (among other things) amazes me: ...

Like so often, you are making an assumption. That's not a fact. And you're wrong.

Let me quote on of my recent posts:

Originally Posted by R.

... Additionally, the report function has been enhanced so that posts will get removed from public view once a certain number of reports has been reached. ...

This is what happened. Apparently your post was reported so often that it was removed from public view. It's still waiting for approvel in the moderation queue.

[TheDoode]

Originally Posted by R.

Another thread about his voice, his unique selling point, which could be understood as "His voice was way better 20 years ago". Do you get the picture?

Yeah, but it was.

Okay, seriously then, in my opinion I liked it more than I do his current vocals - but if it's a sensitive issue then I guess there should be an official 'no discussing Meat Loaf's Voice' thread that's locked from the first post, or you could even put it in the rules if you like.

But it's worth keeping in mind that for every area that gets banned from discussion, this 'discussion forum' becomes more of a temple to worship at.

[CarylB]

We could call it a Fan Club

In a nutshell: Top left corner says "Meat Loaf". Another thread about his voice, his unique selling point, which could be understood as "His voice was way better 20 years ago". Do you get the picture?

[renegadeangel]

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

I was being a sarcastic prick. It was a little closer to outright trolling than I intended, but yes, I was kidding.

you had me there

[TheDoode]

Originally Posted by CarylB

We could call it a Fan Club

We could call it an oppressive regime if you like. I'm not saying that it IS one, but if all you want to do is non-objectively praise and stamp out opinions that do not match up to yours, then maybe the boards shouldn't exist at all, and MLUKFC should become a news page instead

[CarylB]

Maybe everyone could pay heed to Rainer's guidance and advice. He does not run this forum oppressively, far from it imo, but draws a few lines in the sand for the reasons he's given

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by TheDoode

It's a discussion forum, and if it's going to stay active and have users engaged in discussion, silence by way of claiming ownership isn't going to go down that well. If you create something within the public domain dedicated to a popular artist, you have to accept that they're going to want to use it for debate. I'm glad that R set this site up in the first place, but I do think that on occasion he can come across as being a bit dictatorial.

But ownership gives you certain rights, no?
R put this place together. He chose his team, and with our consultation (which, being a remarkably rational human being, I hardly think he needs) makes the rules for the place.

Let's get it straight, this place is open to the public free of charge, but if R decided tomorrow that you could only log into this place if you were wearing a pair of yellow fishing waders and one of those caps that holds a couple of cans of beer, he would be well within his right to do that.

The rules of the forum are in place to promote a forum where fans can discuss Meat's work and projects in an atmosphere that is respectful to Meat, to the forum staff, and to each other.
If certain content is felt to be detrimental to a thread being respectful or on topic, it's the privilege of the web master to act as they think best.

If you want a forum where you can say exactly what you want exactly when you want to say it, there's a whole lotta web out there for you to build one.

Originally Posted by robgomm

I think some bans would be entirely appropriate and are actually long overdue, so in that respect R and the mods have been TOO fair to some people.

Hey, check this out, I wrote a poem for ya, it goes something like this

For every forum member
a different point of view
You think that I should ban some
Some think I should ban you

She thinks that you're much too positive
He thinks you show to much doubt
But it's the mods who always get ~~~~~~ed
When Meat begins to shout

So have a little patience
With others on this forum
Learn to respect each other
And show some goddam decorum


Everybody has their own idea of what should be acceptable on this forum

Originally Posted by TheDoode

I think the question then becomes 'where's the middle ground?' I know that I don't come here to offend and provoke Meat Loaf, but I also know I don't come here to gush over everything he says or does. If I have an interest in part of his performance or technique (or a song, or a record, or a video), I want to talk about that and see what other people think. Sometimes I want to hear from the other side of the opinion so I can adjust my own views to things I might not have been aware of or thought about before. I don't come to this site to cause the owner any offense, and I don't come here to intentionally offend other users.

As R said, we've been looking for that middle ground for the last 10 years.
I thought I found it once, but apparently it was Belgium

Where Meat is concerned, I think it's always worth remembering that everything said on the forum is personal to him.
To use a metephore i've used before, imagine a baker looking online and finding a forum dedicated to scrutinizing every loaf he's ever made?
How would you react to the news the rolls you baked on Thursday were shite?

Originally Posted by Paul Richardson

I guess these are fairly unprecedented times.

It's not exactly unprecedented to have Meat lose his rag on the forum, but i'll be ~~~~~~ed if it's getting easier.
(Note on this subject, Meat last said something on this thread on page 4/5, we're now on page 18 ).

Originally Posted by JennaG

I've always thought that if people are going to leave then they should just go and not make such a big song and a dance about it but of course that is only my opinion.

Could it be because the forum actually means something to them?
Some folks have been comming here a lot of years. They feel attached. It's natural that when somebody decides to leave it's an emotional time for them. I, for one, have no problem with people posting their goodbyes if they so choose. And should they come back I never greet they with messages like "oh you're back, I thought you'd left ".

Originally Posted by Evil Ernie

Lol, I love drama on internet forums.

People make it sound like coming to a message board is actually worth a shit.

At best it's a mindless distraction. Get over yourself.

Tell that to the two staff members (me and Andy) who met their wives through the fan community, another staff member who has a beautiful baby girl with another of our members, and other such relationships that have sprung from mlukfc

This is a community, and IMHO it's certainly worth much more than a shit.

[LuuuuvMeat]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

But ownership gives you certain rights, no?
R put this place together. He chose his team, and with our consultation (which, being a remarkably rational human being, I hardly think he needs) makes the rules for the place.

Let's get it straight, this place is open to the public free of charge, but if R decided tomorrow that you could only log into this place if you were wearing a pair of yellow fishing waders and one of those caps that holds a couple of cans of beer, he would be well within his right to do that.

The rules of the forum are in place to promote a forum where fans can discuss Meat's work and projects in an atmosphere that is respectful to Meat, to the forum staff, and to each other.
If certain content is felt to be detrimental to a thread being respectful or on topic, it's the privilege of the web master to act as they think best.

If you want a forum where you can say exactly what you want exactly when you want to say it, there's a whole lotta web out there for you to build one.





Hey, check this out, I wrote a poem for ya, it goes something like this

For every forum member
a different point of view
You think that I should ban some
Some think I should ban you

She thinks that you're much too positive
He thinks you show to much doubt
But it's the mods who always get ~~~~~~ed
When Meat begins to shout

So have a little patience
With others on this forum
Learn to respect each other
And show some goddam decorum


Everybody has their own idea of what should be acceptable on this forum




As R said, we've been looking for that middle ground for the last 10 years.
I thought I found it once, but apparently it was Belgium

Where Meat is concerned, I think it's always worth remembering that everything said on the forum is personal to him.
To use a metephore i've used before, imagine a baker looking online and finding a forum dedicated to scrutinizing every loaf he's ever made?
How would you react to the news the rolls you baked on Thursday were shite?







It's not exactly unprecedented to have Meat lose his rag on the forum, but i'll be ~~~~~~ed if it's getting easier.
(Note on this subject, Meat last said something on this thread on page 4/5, we're now on page 18 ).




Could it be because the forum actually means something to them?
Some folks have been comming here a lot of years. They feel attached. It's natural that when somebody decides to leave it's an emotional time for them. I, for one, have no problem with people posting their goodbyes if they so choose. And should they come back I never greet they with messages like "oh you're back, I thought you'd left ".




Tell that to the two staff members (me and Andy) who met their wives through the fan community, another staff member who has a beautiful baby girl with another of our members, and other such relationships that have sprung from mlukfc

This is a community, and IMHO it's certainly worth much more than a shit.

I just spit out my coffee laughing with that poem. Job well done!

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by LuuuuvMeat

I just spit out my coffee laughing with that poem. Job well done!

Thank you, I do my best

One thing I forgot to post about...........

The subject of Meat's apology.
I'm afraid i've got to again agree with R on this.
If it were coming, I think it would have been here by now.

I know Meat posted an apology on facebook, but he said nothing on facebook (that I saw) that was anywhere near as abusive what he posted here.
So, with that in mind, perhaps (i'm theorising here folks) Meat is a little embarrased to visit the forum right now because of his outburst?
If i'd have said what Meat has said, I know i'd be embarrased by my actions.

I'd have liked to see him apologise to the members here because I know how many feelings were hurt here, and I think it would have gone a long way to winning back peoples respect, but i've seen his facebook page, and I believe him to be sincerley sorry for his actions.

We can either take his facebook apology for what it is, or we can hold the fact he didn't post it here against him.

Me? I'll take the apology.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

The subject of Meat's apology.
I'm afraid i've got to again agree with R on this.
If it were coming, I think it would have been here by now.

I know Meat posted an apology on facebook, but he said nothing on facebook (that I saw) that was anywhere near as abusive what he posted here.
So, with that in mind, perhaps (i'm theorising here folks) Meat is a little embarrased to visit the forum right now because of his outburst?
If i'd have said what Meat has said, I know i'd be embarrased by my actions.

I'd have liked to see him apologise to the members here because I know how many feelings were hurt here, and I think it would have gone a long way to winning back peoples respect, but i've seen his facebook page, and I believe him to be sincerley sorry for his actions.

We can either take his facebook apology for what it is, or we can hold the fact he didn't post it here against him.

Me? I'll take the apology.

According to the rules of the forum, we're not allowed to bring issues posted on another site back here, which is fair, IMO. For the same reason, however, I don't think an apology on Facebook is acceptable for comments that were made here- sorry. Besides, some people here might not use Facebook.

I can understand if Meat is embarrassed, but that's no excuse not to apologize, IMO. I think he would have earned many people's respect if he had done so.

As someone said previously, how would Meat feel if this incident were made known to the general public? The cynic in me thinks that maybe he apologized on Facebook because it's much more "public" than this place. If Meat truly considers the people on this site his "friends", then all the more reason he should say something here.

[LisaT]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

I know Meat posted an apology on facebook, but he said nothing on facebook (that I saw) that was anywhere near as abusive what he posted here.
So, with that in mind, perhaps (i'm theorising here folks) Meat is a little embarrased to visit the forum right now because of his outburst?
If i'd have said what Meat has said, I know i'd be embarrased by my actions.

Not sure I agree with this theory, Mouse. If Meat felt that bad about what he'd said, I think he would have been back here to apologise by now. Personally, going by the number of times he has lost his temper on here in recent times, I get the impression that he is just totally fed up with this place. It's a shame, considering that (imo) the 97% represents the positive fans, not the negative ones. Having said this, I hope that it is you who are right and me who is wrong!

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

According to the rules of the forum, we're not allowed to bring issues posted on another site back here, which is fair, IMO.

An interesting point.
I know we don't allow arguments to be brought here from other sites, but an apology, something that might start to heal some wounds, that's not a bad thing.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

For the same reason, however, I don't think an apology on Facebook is acceptable for comments that were made here- sorry. Besides, some people here might not use Facebook.

I completley respect and understand your position on this.
Enough to be sympathetic to your point of view.

What I will say is that I believe what it is for every fan to decide for his/her self what is acceptable concerning Meat's apology.
I'm certainly not going to tell anybody to "get over it".

It was here that Meat vented with the most abusive terms, and if you feel that he should apologise here, I feel you are fully justified in expecting that.

If you choose not to forgive him until he does, that is also your choice, and I respect that.

Weather you get that is another matter.

For me, personally, I see that he's sorry, I believe it to be heartfelt, so I just want to get over this horrid and distastful incident and break on through to the other side.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

I I think he would have earned many people's respect if he had done so.

Agreed 100%

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

As someone said previously, how would Meat feel if this incident were made known to the general public? The cynic in me thinks that maybe he apologized on Facebook because it's much more "public" than this place. If Meat truly considers the people on this site his "friends", then all the more reason he should say something here.

I imagine he'd feel pretty damn ashamed.
Facebook might be more public, but I feel that Meat is more himself here. On facebook it's more statements than anything else. Here he talks rather than makes statements (for better or worse).
That being the case, a formal apology is what i'd expect to see on Meat's facebook page.
Here, I don't know. I've already guessed that it's because he feels so bad over what happened he's keeping away for the moment.
He never said anything on facebook like the things he said here so it's not so embarrasing for him to go to.

But again, that's just a theory

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by LisaT

Not sure I agree with this theory, Mouse. If Meat felt that bad about what he'd said, I think he would have been back here to apologise by now. Personally, going by the number of times he has lost his temper on here in recent times, I get the impression that he is just totally fed up with this place. It's a shame, considering that (imo) the 97% represents the positive fans, not the negative ones. Having said this, I hope that it is you who are right and me who is wrong!

You might well be right Lisa.
He might have decided to leave the forum as more trouble than it's worth.

Unless Meat himself tells us why he hasn't been here, we have no idea why he hasn't visited the forum or posted an apology here.

What i've said is what I believe may be the case.
It's anyones guess.

[lorenzoduke]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Me? I'll take the apology.

I'll take the apology when he has the balls to make one to the people he was most offensive to.

Meat didn't just make a general point about dissenters on Facebook, he made the effort to specifically visit this site to pour his scorn, venom, insults and name-calling upon people here - later passed off as some sort of bizarre experiment (in one of the more colourful examples of backpedalling that I've seen this side of UK politics).

Your theory that he's too embarrassed to show his face here basically makes the point that he's a coward. I'd like to think otherwise, but I've yet to be proven right and you've yet to be proven wrong.

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

He might have decided to leave the forum as more trouble than it's worth.

Well it would be a hell of an ironic thing for him to make that decision immediately after telling 97% of the membership to go ~~~~ itself.

[CarylB]

[QUOTE=lorenzoduke;580862]
Meat .... made the effort to specifically visit this site to pour his scorn, venom, insults and name-calling upon people here [QUOTE]

That's your assumption Michael. You're entitled to make one, but my take would be very different, as I believe I've explained early on, and won't repeat it again because of what that would provoke. So I disagree.

- later passed off as some sort of bizarre experiment (in one of the more colourful examples of backpedalling that I've seen this side of UK politics).

I'd agree this seemed to be the case, over something he regretted imo.

I can't agree with your final comments. I judge a man on all I know rather than one incident.

Caryl

[lorenzoduke]

[QUOTE=CarylB;580863][QUOTE=lorenzoduke;580862]
Meat .... made the effort to specifically visit this site to pour his scorn, venom, insults and name-calling upon people here

That's your assumption Michael. You're entitled to make one, but my take would be very different, as I believe I've explained early on, and won't repeat it again because of what that would provoke. So I disagree.

I would have thought that Meat came here specifically to make that post was beyond debate. Perhaps I misunderstand what you're getting at there?

Originally Posted by CarylB

I'd agree this seemed to be the case, over something he regretted imo.

I can't agree with your final comments. I judge a man on all I know rather than one incident.

Caryl

I judge a man on his ability to hold his hands up and accept responsibility for his actions rather than trying to gloss over them with blatant B.S. that only causes more offense. That, as the saying goes, is adding insult to injury.

When I think of the amount of times I and many others here have stood up for Meat, rallied around him (the lambasting he took in Australia strikes me as a relevant and recent example) and been as supportive as anyone could expect a fanbase to be....to my mind, he's treating us the way the Australian press treat him. Belligerent, abusive, unrepentant and full of unwarranted bile and nastiness. Refusing to see the good and acting with a petty vendetta.

People here have had their criticisms of Meat - perhaps to excess at times, but its only because music, singing etc. is subjective and everyone has their own idea of Meat's strengths and weaknesses as a performer, and only consider these things to such a degree because they maybe only at one time or another, or perhaps always, have loved his work.

What I have never seen here is anyone be as vicious or deliberately hurtful to Meat or any other member as he was in this thread. If he doesn't feel sufficient remorse to take 5 minutes to apologise, he's not the guy I've thought he was all these years. Admittedly, he never asked to be anyone's hero, and I've learnt a lesson about having one.

[Monstro]

If there's an apology, we move on.
If there's no apology, we move on.

End result, we move on.

[CarylB]

My support has always been given unconditionally, and like my understanding and forgiveness, still is.

Originally Posted by Monstro

If there's an apology, we move on.
If there's no apology, we move on.

End result, we move on.

I agree.

[lorenzoduke]

Originally Posted by CarylB

My support has always been given unconditionally, and like my understanding and forgiveness, still is.

Support that's given unconditionally gives people a free-pass on any kind of behaviour and no reason to reconsider ones actions.

I agree though, we move on, I've said all I have to say and appreciate anyone who let me bend their ear.

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

According to the rules of the forum, we're not allowed to bring issues posted on another site back here, which is fair, IMO. For the same reason, however, I don't think an apology on Facebook is acceptable for comments that were made here- sorry. Besides, some people here might not use Facebook.

I can understand if Meat is embarrassed, but that's no excuse not to apologize, IMO. I think he would have earned many people's respect if he had done so.

As someone said previously, how would Meat feel if this incident were made known to the general public? The cynic in me thinks that maybe he apologized on Facebook because it's much more "public" than this place. If Meat truly considers the people on this site his "friends", then all the more reason he should say something here.

I don't use Facebook, I use this site. If you offended people on one site and apologized on another site... I don't get that.

[loaferman61]

[QUOTE=lorenzoduke;580864][QUOTE=CarylB;580863]

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke

Meat .... made the effort to specifically visit this site to pour his scorn, venom, insults and name-calling upon people here

I would have thought that Meat came here specifically to make that post was beyond debate. Perhaps I misunderstand what you're getting at there?



I judge a man on his ability to hold his hands up and accept responsibility for his actions rather than trying to gloss over them with blatant B.S. that only causes more offense. That, as the saying goes, is adding insult to injury.

When I think of the amount of times I and many others here have stood up for Meat, rallied around him (the lambasting he took in Australia strikes me as a relevant and recent example) and been as supportive as anyone could expect a fanbase to be....to my mind, he's treating us the way the Australian press treat him. Belligerent, abusive, unrepentant and full of unwarranted bile and nastiness. Refusing to see the good and acting with a petty vendetta.

People here have had their criticisms of Meat - perhaps to excess at times, but its only because music, singing etc. is subjective and everyone has their own idea of Meat's strengths and weaknesses as a performer, and only consider these things to such a degree because they maybe only at one time or another, or perhaps always, have loved his work.

What I have never seen here is anyone be as vicious or deliberately hurtful to Meat or any other member as he was in this thread. If he doesn't feel sufficient remorse to take 5 minutes to apologise, he's not the guy I've thought he was all these years. Admittedly, he never asked to be anyone's hero, and I've learnt a lesson about having one.

[LisaT]

Well, this whole thing has left me feeling confused! I first became a fan of Meat when I was 17 years old (27 years ago). He has been a big part of my life ever since. I have always loved the man, as well as the music. My Facebook page is more about Meat than it is about anything else. I get a lot of stick from friends and family, who accuse me of being 'obsessed' with the man (which, I hasten to add, I am not!) If anyone ever has a bad word to say about him, I am right back at them in his defense. I am always singing his praises, telling people what a great guy he is. I have bought every CD and DVD. I have been to at least one show on every tour and I have queued for hours at a CD signing.

One thing that I have never done is have a M&G, because I have never been able to justify spending that kind of money for the privilege. Since Meat has informed us that next year will be the last UK tour, I was hoping to finally have my M&G, as it will be the last chance I get (although I still can't really afford it!).

Now I don't know what to do because, like so many others here, I am feeling somewhat disillusioned. After some of the things that Meat has said on here, I find myself questioning if the man who I have adored for the last 27 years is the person who I thought he was.

Of course I understand that he is human, just like everyone else. We are all guilty of losing our temper at times and saying things in the heat of the moment, which we later regret. But it's the fact that Meat has not come back here and apologised that I just cannot understand.

I also appreciate that this has probably been brewing for quite some time. I read most of the posts on here and I see a handful of people who (to me) seem intent on stirring things up and who's posts always seem to highlight the negative. I understand why Meat gets hurt by this. But, these people are in the minority. The majority of the people here are in Meat's corner. His last comments pretty much tarred us all with the same brush and, to me, that was unfair and uncalled for.