Was Bat Done Too Early?

[misterfive]

Originally Posted by Paul Richardson

That way pure speculation lies .

Couldn't make up your mind on what to call my argument? Either lies or speculation?

I admit it is speculation but I didn't like in my statements. If anything you are just be a little too over zealous in my opinion. I mean can't you take anothers opinion.

My opinion is I think his career would be better if they waited on the song Bat Out Of Hell. If you dislike that idea of having it wait for awhile then I don't know why I bothered posting an opinion on a "fan forum".

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by misterfive

Couldn't make up your mind on what to call my argument? Either lies or speculation?

I meant speculation - which is fairly clear I think. The point was that you can't predict what would've happened in Meat's career to the degree you did without it being pure speculation.

Someone else called it b*llocks, I called it speculation, and I'm 'over zealous' in my opinions ?

[JennaG]

Originally Posted by misterfive

My opinion is I think his career would be better if they waited on the song Bat Out Of Hell. If you dislike that idea of having it wait for awhile then I don't know why I bothered posting an opinion on a "fan forum".

If everyone stopped posting their ideas and opinions on this forum because others didn't agree or like it then there wouldn't be much point in a forum. The purpose of a fan forum is the discussion over an artists work and the sharing of opinions.

I don't agree with your opinion over BOOH but it doesn't mean that I think you're wrong for having that opinion. Opinions are an individual thing and you're quite entitled to think what you want about the song, as is everyone else here.

[chairboys]

Originally Posted by Paul Richardson

Someone else called it b*llocks

I may have been over the drink-post limit last night.
My apologies for an unnecessary use of such language.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by misterfive

My opinion is I think his career would be better if they waited on the song Bat Out Of Hell. If you dislike that idea of having it wait for awhile then I don't know why I bothered posting an opinion on a "fan forum".

I think I've found one of those perhaps rare moments when I agree absolutely with Paul

Let's just say you can't unpick one part of Meat's history and then rewrite everything that followed. That way pure speculation lies .

The fact is Meat, Jim and Todd produced the masterpiece which is BOOH, the song and the album. Every artist would kill for that kind of success at ANY time during their career.

I actually believe that Meat's history is the both most heroic and tragic of careers, but I wouldn't change any of the highs or lows, because that is what makes him so compelling as an artist.

Yes, everyone is entitled to have and express opinions .. but BOOH was the song that established a musical career for Meat which despite peaks and lows has endured for decades .. Would his career have been better had they drip fed the classic songs from the original album over the years? I rather doubt it. It would have reduced Meat to one of those performers who releases albums with one great song and a load of padding, and that wouldn't be Meat in my view, nor is it likely to have established him as soundly as what they released did.

You can't rewrite history (unless you're a deluded zealot who believes the holocaust didn't take place and attempts to do it ). Meat and Jim hold an amazing record of one of the best selling albums of all time .. why try to tinker with that, even if it wasn't impossible?

Perhaps Choirboys was trying to get across that Meat knows he has this success and will always have it as his legacy, but that he is realistic enough to know it won't be repeated, and that he is now happy to continue to develop and explore his art, not simply to chase sales (as long as these are robust enough to continue to allow him to record) but because he is an artist with so much to give. As someone who has followed him throughout, I am more than happy with that.

Some fans may not appreciate his later work as much as his early records .. personally I love CHSIB, HCTB and HIAH just as much as BOOH. The last caught a wave in time, was astounding in its time, and will always remain a classic. The former captured my imagination and appeal to me just as much in their time.

Caryl

[samurai7]

Originally Posted by misterfive

Couldn't make up your mind on what to call my argument? Either lies or speculation?

I think you've misunderstood, he doesn't mean 'lies' as in 'untruths'. He said 'That way pure speculation lies', as in 'At the end of the yellow brick road, the fair city of Oz lies,' or 'That way lies danger in wait.'

[chairboys]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Perhaps Choirboys was trying to get across that Meat knows he has this success and will always have it as his legacy, but that he is realistic enough to know it won't be repeated, and that he is now happy to continue to develop and explore his art, not simply to chase sales (as long as these are robust enough to continue to allow him to record) but because he is an artist with so much to give. As someone who has followed him throughout, I am more than happy with that.

It is always difficult to express oneself clearly when drunk in charge of a laptop. So, thanks for putting my point across more coherently.

Having twice been ejected from such gatherings due to having the voice of a
cement mixer I would like to remind you that I am a chairboy and not a choirboy!!

[misterfive]

Originally Posted by Paul Richardson

Someone else called it b*llocks, I called it speculation, and I'm 'over zealous' in my opinions ?

Calling me it lies basically yeah, that does cross the line.

[misterfive]

Originally Posted by JennaG

Opinions are an individual thing and you're quite entitled to think what you want about the song, as is everyone else here.

I just took offense to being called a liar basically.

[misterfive]

Originally Posted by samurai7

I think you've misunderstood, he doesn't mean 'lies' as in 'untruths'. He said 'That way pure speculation lies', as in 'At the end of the yellow brick road, the fair city of Oz lies,' or 'That way lies danger in wait.'

If he meant it that way he should of posted it in such a way. He just got caught up in the debate and didn't care too much on how it would sound like till I had offence to it.

[misterfive]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Perhaps Choirboys was trying to get across that Meat knows he has this success and will always have it as his legacy, but that he is realistic enough to know it won't be repeated, and that he is now happy to continue to develop and explore his art, not simply to chase sales (as long as these are robust enough to continue to allow him to record) but because he is an artist with so much to give. As someone who has followed him throughout, I am more than happy with that.

Some fans may not appreciate his later work as much as his early records .. personally I love CHSIB, HCTB and HIAH just as much as BOOH. The last caught a wave in time, was astounding in its time, and will always remain a classic. The former captured my imagination and appeal to me just as much in their time.

Caryl

Hmm I suppose my point was a little over bearing to wanting a more JimxMeat style of music. Well I still think Meat should of waited on Bat Out Of Hell but I suppose the album became too good to mess with in any degree.

I literally have no counter arugment that point was concise and well put, I just wish someone would of put it that way sooner and save me some time.

[samurai7]

Originally Posted by misterfive

If he meant it that way he should of posted it in such a way.

He did. He said 'that way speculation lies'. There's actually no mention of ACTUAL 'lies' in his post. He used a word spelled the same, but meaning something different.

[misterfive]

Originally Posted by Paul Richardson

There's so much in here worthy of comment its untrue ! Let's just say you can't unpick one part of Meat's history and then rewrite everything that followed. That way pure speculation lies .

The fact is Meat, Jim and Todd produced the masterpiece which is BOOH, the song and the album. Every artist would kill for that kind of success at ANY time during their career.

I actually believe that Meat's history is the both most heroic and tragic of careers, but I wouldn't change any of the highs or lows, because that is what makes him so compelling as an artist.

Speculation yes, lies no.

[JennaG]

Originally Posted by misterfive

Speculation yes, lies no.

There are two definitions of lies. One means an untruth, the other means 'to rest' or 'to exist' and in the case of the message you quoted, I believe that it meant the latter of these definitions as Samurai has already explained to you in this thread.

Paul Richardson can correct me if I'm wrong but this is an alternative wording of the sentence as it would read to me:

Let's just say you can't unpick one part of Meat's history and then rewrite everything that followed. That way pure speculation exists

From my perception, Paul Richardson was actually agreeing with your point that this was merely speculation.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by misterfive

There wouldn't be one cause he would be having a better working relation with Meat and we would've also had a Meat version of Total Eclipse of the Heart.

I think you are missing the point I was trying to make.

Jim decided to be a singer because Meat lost his voice.

As a singer he released one album.
1.
Numero uno.
Less than 2 in 2 out of three.
The only good record in a bad record shop.
The Chesney Hawkes of albums (think about it ).

And then he sank without trace (as a singer).

No second album ever appeared.

So what would have happened to Meat if he'd recorded and released that material rather than the Bat album?

Sure, it would have sounded a lot better, but was the material good enough to make a good enough impression (would it sell enough copies) for the record company to think it was worth forking out the cash for the next album?

Because if Meat debuted with Bad For Good, and it had the same success rate with the same results, Meat today would be one of those music curiosities that you might find on vinyl under the novelty section of your local second hand record store.

I'm sure some folks would disagree strongly with this (and feel free to), but I think Jim's Bad For Good only ever made it onto CD because of the interest generated through the Meat Loaf/Bat connection.

Originally Posted by misterfive

I am not saying it wouldn't have been a hit I am saying that song made was too long, too over the top, and it did turn off so many other more established record companies.

Ever record exec who ever turned down Bat must cry himself to sleep every night
"Clive", the dude who said Meat was Robert Goulett and Jim didn't know anything about Rock n Roll must have taken up yoga so he could indeed follow Meat's instructions (shouted from the street) and go f*ck himself.

It doesn't matter who it turned off. It turned on one man with belief, vison, and a huge set of cahoonas.
Shout out to MR STEVE POPOVICH!!!!!!

Nobody else matters.

Originally Posted by misterfive

I just took offense to being called a liar basically.

Read Samurai.
You weren't being called a liar

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by chairboys

It is always difficult to express oneself clearly when drunk in charge of a laptop. So, thanks for putting my point across more coherently.

Having twice been ejected from such gatherings due to having the voice of a
cement mixer I would like to remind you that I am a chairboy and not a choirboy!!

Yes .. I plead the fact that I was listening to Carols as I typed

@ misterfive See my reply to chairboys? There are Carols who are people with that name and ones we sing at Christmas .. I was referring to the latter

No-one has called you a liar or suggested you were lying .. One can say "That way lies paranoia" or "That way paranoia lies" .. both mean the same thing, and the latter phrasing doesn't imply that paranoia is prevaricating

Caryl .. now defending Paul as well as agreeing with him. Must be Christmas, the time of miracles and virgin births! ..

[misterfive]

I thought we were discussing Meat Loaf not grammar. This conversation went "nowhere fast" so I am going to spend my time continuing this debate experience "45 seconds of ecstasy" while listening to "Midnight At The Lost And Found" cause I think that is the better waste of my time.


Note: *I like Midnight At The Lost And Found it has 4 of my favourite songs*.

[CarylB]

We're not debating grammar .. we're talking about the fact that some words have more than one meaning. You have referred several times to being called a liar, and we've been pointing out that this was not the way the word was used, but rather as in the sense of to be or exist (I think it comes from the Latin lectus ... bed)

But you can waste your time in whatever way you choose of course The rest of us were simply wasting ours in a vain attempt to explain and halt the offence you seem to have taken.

[misterfive]

Originally Posted by CarylB

We're not debating grammar .. we're talking about the fact that some words have more than one meaning. You have referred several times to being called a liar, and we've been pointing out that this was not the way the word was used, but rather as in the sense of to be or exist (I think it comes from the Latin lectus ... bed)

But you can waste your time in whatever way you choose of course The rest of us were simply wasting ours in a vain attempt to explain and halt the offence you seem to have taken.

You are speaking to a man who earns a living writing eroctic tale for adults so please keep all explanations short enough that one can read it on a bubble gum comic.

[Monstro]

Originally Posted by misterfive

You are speaking to a man who earns a living writing eroctic tale for adults.

That'll be why b0ll0x didn't raise your eyebrows then lol

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by misterfive

You are speaking to a man who earns a living writing eroctic tale for adults so please keep all explanations short enough that one can read it on a bubble gum comic.

You are addressing a woman who can spell erotic

[chairboys]

Originally Posted by CarylB

You are addressing a woman who can spell erotic

Originally Posted by Monstro

That'll be why b0ll0x didn't raise your eyebrows then lol

Are you two submitting opening lines to misterfive's next novel?

[misterfive]

Originally Posted by CarylB

You are addressing a woman who can spell erotic

That is why writers have editors.

[misterfive]

Originally Posted by chairboys

Are you two submitting opening lines to misterfive's next novel?

I don't write novels I write serials but I have wrote several very trashy novella's but the majority of my work is either original western yaoi/yuri/shojo or being part of a writing team for film and television.

[samurai7]

Originally Posted by misterfive

I don't write novels I write serials but I have wrote several very trashy novella's but the majority of my work is either original western yaoi/yuri/shojo or being part of a writing team for film and television.

Would this be in English?