Forum Change discussion

[CarylB]

If there were to be a members only area, what about PM's for Meat just in this section, if he agreed. That way hopefully he would not recieve any PM that caused him distress. (This may not sit well with the members who are dedicated to Meat but for whatever reason are not members)

Please comment

I'd favour Mike's original suggestion of a closed forum. Meat was upset by more than just a PM .. it's the board that needs to become less prone to attacks on Meat and members

[JulesB]

Well, this is an interesting concept, however, I don't know if would pay to read and post. There are many reasons why. First of all Terry and I were registered members since the beginning of the "new" forums (4/2002) and have not always posted a lot but have enjoyed reading it from the beginning. (If you look at the date I joined, it's because we got a second computer and split our usernames.)

Second, I don't think we have ever caused a problem with our posts, we are mature adults and in all honesty I really don't think we have ever abused our right to free speech.

Third, as for the newsletter, I'm sorry but I am lucky to get information that is covered in the RVM first hand from all my internet friends. By the time the newsletter will get to me, it will be old news.

If this fee is being done to keep out troublemakers, there are other ways to deal with that.

We would be glad to donate and plan to do so, more than happy to help out. But to be told we must pay or go away, sorry but I take offense to that statement. If fees are required for web hosting, I will help, however to be told I can't be a part of this community because of paper and postage costs, I don't understand why. I don't understand how we have cost this site a dime in postage and paper. JMHO

Love to all,

Jules

[CarolM]

I think everyone should be allowed to enjoy this site, not just the people who can afford it,{and im not trying to patronise anyone at all by saying this}, im happy to put money in for shortage of funds, but i dont like to think of the site as pay per view, or pay to post, at the end of the day were all here for the same thing Meat ,and our friends . sorry just my opinion.
Carol.

[Mike Piercy]

Voluntary donations could be tried. Good idea.

It will be interesting to see if those non-members who use the site actually
help us out that way, if they don't we would have to opt for something firmer.

We got very little response to sale of RVm's - many thanks to those who have placed orders. Diane's computer is playing up so we'll respond as soon as that is fixed.

Please remember we're not funded by anyone other than paying full-time members. We get no financial help from any other source.

RVM's are not just about news by the way, we have great articles and photos in there and the latest tour edition is really good, there's a second tour edition out in 6 weeks or so as well. If you haven't bought one you don't know until you've read it.

mike

[CarylB]

I agree Carol that the forum should not be one which prevents people who can't afford it from being able to come here. But I think the nominal fee which has been suggested would not be beyond anyone's means who has access to the internet, and has been proposed as a way of providing a more effective way of removing those who would abuse Meat and other forum members and prevent their easy return.

The internet provides a wide open playground for those who enjoy upsetting and abusing others, and this kind of safeguard is one I think we will see more and more web-based clubs introducing, as it's the simplest means of putting a lock on your front door rather than leave it wide open to anyone.Sadly few of us these days live in an area where we can safely leave our front and back doors unlocked. And the internet is no different, in fact it's arguably more vulnerable than our homes.

Voluntary donations would be a good idea if this were being done merely to raise money. But from what Mike said when he raised the issue, this is not the prime objective, but rather to be able to have a site which was more securely protected from those who would seek to abuse Meat and others. I don't think it's hard to see that those who do would will be unlikely to volunteer. The strength of a nominal fee system is that it will prvent most people from re-registering if they are declared persona non gratis.

[Bren]

Originally Posted by Carol Mouse

I think everyone should be allowed to enjoy this site, not just the people who can afford it,......., but i dont like to think of the site as pay per view, or pay to post, at the end of the day were all here for the same thing Meat ,and our friends . sorry just my opinion.
Carol.

well said Carol

To make it members only, would drive away a lot of really nice people that post here..imo

i am a member of MLUKFC, i joined before i had a computer!.

..my two children are registered members of the forum,but are not members of MLUKFC...but love coming here on the forum.

They always read my copy of RVM, and enjoy it, ( as do i ) but there is little if ANY benefit to them joining MLUKFC....ok, so we would then have three copies of RVM in the house instead of one !!!
There have been no meet and greets at any of the concerts we have been to...so being a member has not been of benefit in that way....but that is not why i joined MLUKFC.
I joined to keep up to date on news and to meat other Meat Loaf fans/readthere opinions/concert reviews etc....

I come to the forum, because i love meat Loafs music , i like to keep up with news events, read about concerts etc..
I also come here to chat and discuss things with my friends,

if you make it members only...make people pay......you will not only lose the "BAD" element, but drive away valued members of the forum.

sorry, as usual , my opinion is the opposite of the majority.....but it is my opinion

Bren

[CarylB]

They always read my copy of RVM, and enjoy it, ( as do i ) but there is little if ANY benefit to them joining MLUKFC....ok, so we would then have three copies of RVM in the house instead of one !!!

Sorry Bren, but I don't see any suggestion that anyone would have to become a fanclub member to use the forum .. just a small charge to be a forum user if they aren't fanclub members.

Mike said half price for children, and agreed with Sin that a "family" rate for non club members would be a good idea. I'd go further and suggest that fanclub members' children could be admitted at no charge at all. This is, as I understand it, about security rather than money

[Tim]

MIke... are you out of your ~~~~ing mind????

What the hell is your problem??? another ~~~~ing pay site??? Don't you even think i'm gonna pay for this.

What is the purpose?? drive people away?? or is it just for you... to let people see that you have power?? Or is it for the money?? do you have some debts? i think so.

No other way you could come up with something so stupid.

I joined this forum before it had a 100 members. I'm here to discuss things, talk about things, not to pay ~~~~ing money for it. If that is your purpose i will start my own non pay Meat Loaf forum.

The Butcher.

[SueW]

Why is this being considered? Is it because there is a financial deficit in MLUKFC funds that needs to be made up or is it to reduce the chance of troublemakers posting on the board?

If it's because of lack of funds, then what kind of deficit are you talking about? Looking at the number of posts per day, this board must be very large in size but web hosting nowadays isn't all that expensive. Could a cheaper (but still reliable place) to host it be found? Or could savings be made in other areas of the fan club? You've given us one alternative of making up the deficit (2 if you include the RVM), why not open another thread asking for different suggestions?

If it's to stop possible troublemakers posting (or PMing Meat Loaf) then I don't actually think it's been that great a problem on this board. The very vast majority of bash-Meat posts have been on the OIFC board where it's possible to post under any name and without giving an e-mail address.

As far as Meat Loaf's recent namings of people on this board who have upset him, I don't know about Winston but Michael and I are already both Fan Club members so even if we had a pay-site scenario, that situation would still have occurred.

I think that currently this Fan Club is in a shaky position anyway. The tour has finished, we don't know yet definitely if they will be playing here again in the near future. When we were talking recently about the fan club at some concerts with people often they asked if it was worth joining as it's his last World tour. Plus we don't even know what's happening with his official site yet. When that opens we may lose a load of members just because of that and I think a pay-only area may increase that for people who can only afford to pay for one site.

On Meat Loaf's 1999 tour, on the Internet the main place to post was the Loafdom mailing list, on this tour it has been the MLUKFC board and I wouldn't like to see that change which could easily happen if people have to pay to post here but it's free elsewhere.

Finally, we have about 900 members on this board, how many fan club members do we have? Even if it's 500 (which I doubt), probably 50 of them aren't online so aren't members of this board so that would leave 450 people who are registered on this board but aren't fan club members.... do we want to risk losing 450 people who will just find somewhere else to post anyway? I like the discussions / news / opinions that are posted on this board and I'd be sorry to see it diminished.

SueW

[Bren]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Sorry Bren, but I don't see any suggestion that anyone would have to become a fanclub member to use the forum .. just a small charge to be a forum user if they aren't fanclub members.

Mike said half price for children, and agreed with Sin that a "family" rate for non club members would be a good idea. I'd go further and suggest that fanclub members' children could be admitted at no charge at all. This is, as I understand it, about security rather than money

Sapphire Lady wrote

I would like to see this forum open to mlukfc members only. It is after all the mlukfc website.

Make it a "perk" of being in the fan club and this would encourage more people to become members. And that way everyone would be making a financial contribution to the running of the site.


Bren

[CarylB]

Sorry Bren .. I worded that poorly .. I meant that Mike wasn't suggesting this, and I don't think that restricting forum access to fanclub members only was his intention. I think anyway that fanclub members' children should have access as part of that membership anyway.

The main reason, it seemed to me, for the proposal to introduce a nominal charge was to imcrease security. It might not prevent one abusive post, but could provide the means of preventing the person concerned repeating this, and would help prevent anyine who was banned from re-registering.

Out of all those registered here it seems by no means all post. Perhaps people could be allowed free access to view only? Rather like the CHSIB promo forum R set up. That way those who browse and don't post won't necessarily be "driven away" .. and visitors can see what the forum is like and make a decision as to whether they wish to subscribe to being a full forum member

[Deb]

I agree with Sue, Carol and Jules on this..

I'm a member so makes no odds to me, but don't really see the need to make it a pay site. As Sue said the ones meat has Named are members anyway, also most of the abuse has gone on over at the OIFC board. Plus at least one that I know of has abused others on pm and by posting, was also been banned for It and just made up another name and came back, If that had been enforced more strictly maybe there would be no need for his now. I'm not saying thats the person thats causing the trouble now, just an example.

The flyers gave out on the tour had the website address on. There needs to be somewhere for these people who recieved them to come to see the site before they join anyway. Plus IMO once people have been here a while they would join eventually anyway, to be made to do it seems a bit off. Jon Bon Jovis mum runs his fanclub, and even she has the site as free. The actaully fan club with magazines is something seperate completely

I also wouldnt want to pay twice, once for being member and once for site

Deb

[CarylB]

I also wouldnt want to pay twice, once for being member and once for site

I think it's been pointed out almost to the point of exhaustion that this has not been suggested. Fanclub members would get free access. Non-members would be asked to pay a nominal fee. There's nothing there about paying twice.

Plus at least one that I know of has abused others on pm and by posting, was also been banned for It and just made up another name and came back

And introducing a nominal fee is one way of being able to prevent this, as it's less easy to register using another name.

[Deb]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I think it's been pointed out almost to the point of exhaustion that this has not been suggested. Fanclub members would get free access. Non-members would be asked to pay a nominal fee. There's nothing there about paying twice.

Thanx for pointing that out Caryl
As i've said many times here, I dont have as much time as others to read these long posts. I was just stating my opinion as was opinions were asked.

Deb

And introducing a nominal fee is one way of being able to prevent this, as it's less easy to register using another name.

But the person i'm thinking of is known now and then. so could of easily been prevented without costs

Deb

[SueW]

Hmm, assuming that all join, 900 members at £5 = £4,500.

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

We all have a surprising amount of paperwork, stationery, and postage costs which we use to give info to non-members as a result of posting on this site. That comes out of Members contributions. this is in the hope people will signh up as full members - call it marketing!

How? Non fan club members sign up to use the board and give a valid e-mail addy. How can the fan club then spend money on stationery and postage trying to persuade people to join the fan club when all they have is an e-mail address?

I've found that most times when non-members ask a question on the board, it is answered by just other fan club members not "the fan club" itself.

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

Any ideas for the members only part of the site?
What would you like to see in there?

* Latest News to members first
* Australia/New Zealand Tour info/reports

Sadly this site isn't really known as being first with the news anymore. Back on the 1999 StoryTellers tour Left Bank did let both MLUKFC and OIFC know the dates first but that is no longer the case.

I think on this tour all the dates went on sale first and then people posted about it on this board (in my case, after I'd booked my tickets first!).

As for the Australian dates, some were posted to two of the mailing lists first and then made their way over to this board and the rest of the dates (and date changes) I found first on the Australian ticket sites and posted on here (after I'd posted them on KasimInfo.com first of course!).

MLUKFC did get the news about the singles first (I think) but I believe that any news about Meat Loaf should get out to as many as possible as fast as possible.

I agree that if you could find a way of getting priority seating or booking for fan club members then it would be a real bonus but the OIFC advertise this and only managed it at a few US concerts and a couple of Australian ones, none of the UK ones.

Plus, why would ticketing agencies agree to do this when this site isn't "official" and Meat Loaf is going to open his own website as that is where I would expect to see these benefits?

SueW

[CarylB]

Thanx for pointing that out Caryl
As i've said many times here, I dont have as much time as others to read these long posts. I was just stating my opinion as was opinions were asked.

That's OK Deb, you're most welcome. Just thought it would be a shame for anyone to run away with the wrong idea and be concerned about something that was not proposed

[Mike Piercy]

I've never suggested a total pay site.

I have suggested a restricted area for fans only with it's own special topic areas and inter-member posting. I also would like to see greater moderation of abusive and appalling behaviour towards Meat and other people who post here. It started with meet/greet debates and apparently led to some person(s) PMing Meat causing him some upset, frankly I'm not surprised he was fed up, I know I would have been. It seems at times you can be told off for telling a joke (albeit a poor one) but not for insulting behaviour, strikes me as ludicrous.

To Sue W and others I have answered this question about "why" before. We've tried to increase membership and I think we've done some of that thanks to this tour but unlike other sites we have costs because we reply to all who write in whether they join or not, and non-payers are only too keen to pretend to be members to get meet/greets and other news so costs go up. A small contribution would be nice don't you think?

We've tried to encourage voluntary contribution by purchasing RVM's. Few have, yet that way they would have something in return, a rather good Magazine.

Personally I'm more than happy to try a voluntary contribution route - but what if that fails?
Mike

[Deb]

Originally Posted by SueW

Sadly this site isn't really known as being first with the news anymore. Back on the 1999 StoryTellers tour Left Bank did let both MLUKFC and OIFC know the dates first but that is no longer the case.

I think on this tour all the dates went on sale first and then people posted about it on this board (in my case, after I'd booked my tickets first!).

As for the Australian dates, some were posted to two of the mailing lists first and then made their way over to this board and the rest of the dates (and date changes) I found first on the Australian ticket sites and posted on here (after I'd posted them on KasimInfo.com first of course!).
SueW

Well I for one got all the dates from kasiminfo long before they went on here or anywhere else. So If i'd waited till they was here, I wouldnt of had such good seats this tour.

Deb

[Mike Piercy]

Yes we need to improve our information sourcing but that is not the topic -just in case any moderators are involved in this debate.

For Tim's benefit I assume you are not a member but enjoy what you get from here? Did you buy an RVM voluntarily? Would you make a voluntary donation? To clarify for you especially Tim it's about reasonableness not power so please read the next paragraph.

What we are saying is our members fund Meat Loaf UK Fan Club by annual subscription fees. Those fees rise to meet the overall expenditure we predict will occur in the next 12 months, there's nothing left no profit/surplus. We operate our own phones/internet lines, PC's, software, and printers, we don't get paid, we're fans like everyone here. We buy stationery and use printers, badge makers etc etc from the fees. for example Rainer, Diane and I used our own phone lines/internet to set up meet and greets (and no we don't get that reimbursed).

By the way this site is also called Meat Loaf UK Fan Club so by using it you are using something members paid for.

I was asked to help out in July but circumstances meant I got more involved and to some extent am the one who tends to do the financial projections. It's will be me who says to my colleagues the projections for the next 12 months mean fees have to rise by (?). That rise in fees is paid by me as well as other members.

Our suggestion to seek some form of contribution from non-fan club users
eases some of the burden on those who pay full fees. that's it plain if not simple.

Mike
(oh.... and i'm not mad (I assume)

[SueW]

Thanks for the reply Mike but what sort of financial shortfall are we talking about? Do we have a treasurer for the fan club? Are the books audited?

(I'm not in any way suggesting that anything bad is happening but just that I'm the treasurer of a non-music club that I belong to and have been able to spot some ways of saving money that non-accountants have not been aware of.)

If people are told that this board costs £XXX per year then they will be more likely to understand about making a contribution.

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

I also would like to see greater moderation of abusive and appalling behaviour towards Meat and other people who post here. It started with meet/greet debates and apparently led to some person(s) PMing Meat causing him some upset, frankly I'm not surprised he was fed up, I know I would have been.

Any abuse on the board or of the PM system should be reported to Rainer and then it can be dealt with by a warning and then a ban. If this has been happening to Meat Loaf then I think it's a shame that he has left the board when the postees should have just been ejected instead.

(I don't wish this thread to turn into a discussion on this next point but what some people find abusive, other people do not. Meat Loaf has been known to misread posts in the past so possibly even this happened again in this instance. Certainly the points in his last post about the tour programmes happened elsewhere and not on this board.)

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

To Sue W and others I have answered this question about "why" before. We've tried to increase membership and I think we've done some of that thanks to this tour but unlike other sites we have costs because we reply to all who write in whether they join or not, and non-payers are only too keen to pretend to be members to get meet/greets and other news so costs go up.

We have to accept that membership enquires are a cost to the fan club but why not just make a ruling that all people who write in must list their Bat number before the matter will be dealt with? Surely most enquiries nowadays are via e-mail anyway (and therefore do not cost the fan club anything financially).

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

We've tried to encourage voluntary contribution by purchasing RVM's. Few have, yet that way they would have something in return, a rather good Magazine.

Why not put a copy of an old edition of the RVM on the site? If people are thinking that it is like the OIFC one page newsletter then they are not going to purchase it. Show them how good it is and that it is worth purchasing.

The largest Todd Rundgren website on the internet is open to all but takes voluntary contributions. Although I don't know the sums involved, that seems to work quite well.

SueW

[Mike Piercy]

Did ask for Bat No. as can be seen by checking m/g info. sadly not all did hence problems.

Anyway still not the topic as headlined.

I personally think I can only ask Members to foot the total bill for so long. If we keep pushing up full Membership fees people will not be able to afford it and will cease subscribing.

Fees are set to cover each year's anticipated projection. I could reduce costs of course eg 4 RVM's no badges but feel most members like the set up. No doubt you'll tell me if they don't. All we aim to do each year is breakeven and our fee pricing enables that, I'm trying to find ways of reducing the burden on the few who pay the full fee.

Mike

[CarolM]

I hope there is a good solution to this soon, because i dont want anyone to leave here i just couldnt handle it saying goodbye to all the good friends we have made on here , i have never met so many lovely people since joining here, id buy RVM got some nice pics in its also a good read. .
Carol.

[Mike Piercy]

Thanks to Sue for the TR idea.

We will definitely look at the voluntary route and I'm sure we'll try it if we can do the same.

Still say if you buy an RVM you actually get something back in return, we will try to get an example displayed now we're all back from the Tour.

By the way that's why this has happened now, no time before and thought voluntary RVM purchase set up during tour would work - it didn't.

Mike
(may be mad but am a paying member)

[original sin]

As I would imagine the fan club is technically a non-profit making organisation to be at break even is acceptable.I

I think that to a degree we both lose and gain by having a site that people can drop in and post.

I have always felt better "protected" by the fact that registration is required, which avoids what we have seen on other sites were people can do a hit and run to cause havoc or make mutiple posts using different names.

Maybe a better way would be to have a members area within the site where competitions, perks, hot off the press news( of course we'd have to get the news!) etc is available and where IF Meat chose to return he could only be accessed through.
This could be "sold" as either straight forward membership or membership plus internet use. I do wonder what those members who don't have or use the internet would make of this discussion and how they would feel.
Maybe this should be "polled" in RVM so all members can have a voice as to what they pay for?

[CarylB]

Mike said:

What we are saying is our members fund Meat Loaf UK Fan Club by annual subscription fees. Those fees rise to meet the overall expenditure we predict will occur in the next 12 months, there's nothing left no profit/surplus. We operate our own phones/internet lines, PC's, software, and printers, we don't get paid, we're fans like everyone here. We buy stationery and use printers, badge makers etc etc from the fees. for example Rainer, Diane and I used our own phone lines/internet to set up meet and greets (and no we don't get that reimbursed).

and

I was asked to help out in July but circumstances meant I got more involved and to some extent am the one who tends to do the financial projections. It's will be me who says to my colleagues the projections for the next 12 months mean fees have to rise by (?). That rise in fees is paid by me as well as other members.

I saw no complaint here that the club broke even, just a comment that year by year costs tended to increase. Those that produce and send out the fanclub material give their time and incur personal cost. I'm sure they welcome any ideas for cost saving being out to them constructively. I am less convinced that any one of them deserves to be attacked for perhaps missing the odd opportunity to save costs.

I found nothing offensive in Mike's post.