How to fix things ...

[Adje]

Wow, too many posts in here for me to read. And I won't because basically...

Nothing has to be fixed!

The diversity of people in here is amazing. Only showing how diverse the Meat Loaf fans are. You have followers, adorers, criticasters, groupies etc. Just like in the real World.

And just like in the Real World I have an opnion about most people here. Some I like, some I love, some I hate, some I disagree with and at least one person that I completely ignore because I can't stand anything that person says. It actually feels like the 'real thing'

So what if someone says something 'less nice' about anyone. So what if a person critisizes a performance, cd or song of Meat Loaf. So what if the discusions get a little heated sometimes and so what if Meat Loaf gets upset by it?

We are here for a simple reason. Because we are a fan of a certain artist. And I have read harsh critisism about that artist here. But I hardly found anything disrespectful. Being a fan also means sharing your dissapointment to each other. About anything. And that includes the artist you like so much or even love.

We all overreact sometimes. I do, other members do and we know Meat does that too. And then we argue and if we don't work it out a mod comes in and does his/her thing to take the heat away. A perfect balance with so many diverse people in here. But above all a perfect place to share your honest opinion.

So, should MLUKFC be a 'safe haven' for Meat Loaf? Well it depends on your idea of a safe haven, I guess. For me! It should be a place where Meat knows his fans are. In all their brutal honesty and in all their suport.

This is what MLUKFC should be for me. And at this time still is.

I appreciate Paul's opinion and contribution. But there is one thing I commpletely disagree with him about. He mentioned a few days back that we might as well rename this board to the ML UK Hate forum.

Well Paul if you read this, I believe the people that are so critical are fans. And they don't hate. But, just like Meat Loaf, their ego and personal experience tells them how they feel about things, including Meat Loaf. If they are dissapointed in anything Meat did they should be free to express that here. Because this is a fan community. They don't express their dissapointment because they hate Meat Loaf. They express it because that is what a community like this is about. The fact that others might disagree with the person is no reason to say that person hates. He just has a strong different opinion.

This is a fan community, not a fan cult

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by Adje

Wow, too many posts in here for me to read. And I won't because basically...

Nothing has to be fixed!

The diversity of people in here is amazing. Only showing how diverse the Meat Loaf fans are. You have followers, adorers, criticasters, groupies etc. Just like in the real World.

And just like in the Real World I have an opnion about most people here. Some I like, some I love, some I hate, some I disagree with and at least one person that I completely ignore because I can't stand anything that person says. It actually feels like the 'real thing'

So what if someone says something 'less nice' about anyone. So what if a person critisizes a performance, cd or song of Meat Loaf. So what if the discusions get a little heated sometimes and so what if Meat Loaf gets upset by it?

We are here for a simple reason. Because we are a fan of a certain artist. And I have read harsh critisism about that artist here. But I hardly found anything disrespectful. Being a fan also means sharing your dissapointment to each other. About anything. And that includes the artist you like so much or even love.

We all overreact sometimes. I do, other members do and we know Meat does that too. And then we argue and if we don't work it out a mod comes in and does his/her thing to take the heat away. A perfect balance with so many diverse people in here. But above all a perfect place to share your honest opinion.

So, should MLUKFC be a 'safe haven' for Meat Loaf? Well it depends on your idea of a safe haven, I guess. For me! It should be a place where Meat knows his fans are. In all their brutal honesty and in all their suport.

This is what MLUKFC should be for me. And at this time still is.

I appreciate Paul's opinion and contribution. But there is one thing I commpletely disagree with him about. He mentioned a few days back that we might as well rename this board to the ML UK Hate forum.

Well Paul if you read this, I believe the people that are so critical are fans. And they don't hate. But, just like Meat Loaf, their ego and personal experience tells them how they feel about things, including Meat Loaf. If they are dissapointed in anything Meat did they should be free to express that here. Because this is a fan community. They don't express their dissapointment because they hate Meat Loaf. They express it because that is what a community like this is about. The fact that others might disagree with the person is no reason to say that person hates. He just has a strong different opinion.

This is a fan community, not a fan cult

But Adje people just go too far on here. Instead of just saying they didn't like something or saying well i wasn't so keen on this part they go further and specifically attack things and sometimes insult the artist.

it shouldn't get to the point where the mods have to step in. I don't think it's right that people stir up bad feeling and arguments among themselves do you?

[Adje]

Originally Posted by robgomm

But Adje people just go too far on here. Instead of just saying they didn't like something or saying well i wasn't so keen on this part they go further and specifically attack things and sometimes insult the artist.

it shouldn't get to the point where the mods have to step in. I don't think it's right that people stir up bad feeling and arguments among themselves do you?

Basically what I'm saying is that in this community you should be free to express your dislikes as much as your love. If this means an indepth post that sound harsh it doesn't immediately mean you stir up bad feelings.

And just like in real life we have people who can handle this better than others.

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by Adje

Basically what I'm saying is that in this community you should be free to express your dislikes as much as your love. If this means an indepth post that sound harsh it doesn't immediately mean you stir up bad feelings.

And just like in real life we have people who can handle this better than others.

People can express their dislike I agree, it's the way they do it that causes trouble.

[ninja]

Originally Posted by Snafu

So I'll gues I'll sum up by saying. Meat, Paul, and the band: We love you no matter what! We love your work, I'm sure we all have multiple copies of your work! I have four copies of HIAH, 1 digital and 3 hard and I'm debating whether to get a US one! Not to mention the other albums, In terms of the music I play on my iPod, it's 99.5% you guys. All the time. I'll be sure to be at a minimum of 3 concerts WHEN you come back to the UK. Hopefully I'll get to meet you all as well! I'm sure there will be a group of MLUK'ers front and center at at least one of the concerts (I'll do a banner! )

Agaiin this is a brilliant community. I'm sure I could never leave it!

wow, how great ... i just can agree 100%!!

[Sue K]

I'm sorry, but it got a bit dizzying reading through the thread... so I've skimmed... I have a question, sort of like a what came first... the chicken or egg... Meat didn't always post here, did he ? How long after the UKFC was formed did he begin ?

I came on board when I learned Meat posted here. I think it's cool for fans that the focus of their fandom talks to them. I'm sorry that Meat gets upset and leaves. I always keep faith he'll be back. I don't know how you "fix it" so Meat won't get upset but for mods to delete every post they sense is negative and that's really not fair to them or the poster because while there may be some negative points in posts in same posts could be positive... Good luck to all !

Meanwhile I'll stay because I enjoy reading Meat's posts... and tales of fan gatherings ... and playng on the Off Topic threads and in the arcade... It's like an online carnival for me ... lol ...

oh and I wouldn't miss a WarieL masterpiece for the all the world !!! ... lol ...

Peace out ...

S ... xo

[glamourgirl]

It all comes down to respect- respect for Meat, respect for the band, respect for each other.

If someone doesn't like a song or part of a show, then offer a constructive critique about how to make it better. That is useful. But saying something sucks is useless and so is false praise.

When someone posts an opinion, we all need to stop misinterpreting comments and insulting someone if we disagree with their opinion. It is just an opinion- no one is right or wrong.

[Sue K]

Originally Posted by glamourgirl

It all comes down to respect- respect for Meat, respect for the band, respect for each other.

If someone doesn't like a song or part of a show, then offer a constructive critique about how to make it better. That is useful. But saying something sucks is useless and so is false praise.

When someone posts an opinion, we all need to stop misinterpreting comments and insulting someone if we disagree with their opinion. It is just an opinion- no one is right or wrong.

I like your post !! ... It was easy to read, to the point... and I wished I'd said it... lol ... xo

[suzieq]

So is the consensus that the forum is fine, there is no need to fix it or turn it around?

I'm going to extend an open invitation to all members here. That is if I post anything that offends you as a person, I would like you to pm me so we can discuss it like adults. I can only account for my own posts and man up for any offense I may not realize I am committing.

If I don't know I've offended you, I can't fix it.

Can we truce?

[AndyK]

Originally Posted by suzieq

Can we truce?

This is perhaps one of the best questions that have been posed on this thread. As we do move forward I think it'll help if we all drop as many of pur preconceptions about people and our perceived motives behind their posts as we possibly can, easier said than done I know but it'll help a great deal if it's possible?

[chairboys]

I have to admit that the 'incident' took me by surprise somewhat. But, the last few weeks on here beats any novel written!! I can't believe anyone, deep down, doesn't enjoy all of this! Everyone still comes on here and posts and either agrees or disagrees with their FELLOW MEAT FANS.
The moderators are steady hands on the tiller in what are choppy waters at the moment.
They do a very good job. It's a labour of love for them and I, for one, appreciate that.
There seems to be more activity on here than for a wee while so, I guess, it can't be that bad.
Long live the MLUKFC.

[Nici]

Originally Posted by Adje

Wow, too many posts in here for me to read. And I won't because basically...

Nothing has to be fixed!

The diversity of people in here is amazing. Only showing how diverse the Meat Loaf fans are. You have followers, adorers, criticasters, groupies etc. Just like in the real World.

And just like in the Real World I have an opnion about most people here. Some I like, some I love, some I hate, some I disagree with and at least one person that I completely ignore because I can't stand anything that person says. It actually feels like the 'real thing'

So what if someone says something 'less nice' about anyone. So what if a person critisizes a performance, cd or song of Meat Loaf. So what if the discusions get a little heated sometimes and so what if Meat Loaf gets upset by it?

We are here for a simple reason. Because we are a fan of a certain artist. And I have read harsh critisism about that artist here. But I hardly found anything disrespectful. Being a fan also means sharing your dissapointment to each other. About anything. And that includes the artist you like so much or even love.

We all overreact sometimes. I do, other members do and we know Meat does that too. And then we argue and if we don't work it out a mod comes in and does his/her thing to take the heat away. A perfect balance with so many diverse people in here. But above all a perfect place to share your honest opinion.

So, should MLUKFC be a 'safe haven' for Meat Loaf? Well it depends on your idea of a safe haven, I guess. For me! It should be a place where Meat knows his fans are. In all their brutal honesty and in all their suport.

This is what MLUKFC should be for me. And at this time still is.

I appreciate Paul's opinion and contribution. But there is one thing I commpletely disagree with him about. He mentioned a few days back that we might as well rename this board to the ML UK Hate forum.

Well Paul if you read this, I believe the people that are so critical are fans. And they don't hate. But, just like Meat Loaf, their ego and personal experience tells them how they feel about things, including Meat Loaf. If they are dissapointed in anything Meat did they should be free to express that here. Because this is a fan community. They don't express their dissapointment because they hate Meat Loaf. They express it because that is what a community like this is about. The fact that others might disagree with the person is no reason to say that person hates. He just has a strong different opinion.

This is a fan community, not a fan cult

I totally agree with you Adje well said!!!

[Metal Loaf]

Originally Posted by Adje

Wow, too many posts in here for me to read. And I won't because basically...

Nothing has to be fixed!

Well Paul if you read this, I believe the people that are so critical are fans. And they don't hate. But, just like Meat Loaf, their ego and personal experience tells them how they feel about things, including Meat Loaf. If they are dissapointed in anything Meat did they should be free to express that here. Because this is a fan community. They don't express their dissapointment because they hate Meat Loaf. They express it because that is what a community like this is about. The fact that others might disagree with the person is no reason to say that person hates. He just has a strong different opinion.

This is a fan community, not a fan cult

I read your post...

Opinions don't bother me.

You're totally missing the point.

P

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Monstro

Ok, been thinking about my post here for a few days and mentally re-written it so many times it's a joke so I'm just gonna say what this site means to me and how it's changed my life .(that is not an overstatement).

And a lot more great stuff
.

A great post, and some great memories

Originally Posted by suzieq

I think this thread was how to fix things....but right now I don't see many suggestions "HOW" to do that. I've read about what this site means to other people and yada, yada, but I don't know if anyone has come up with a solid solution of how to fix and turn around the site.

1st thing is that moderation needs to acknowledge that there is a problem to begin with.
2nd thing is to post an update somewhere of what is being done to correct the problems they are working on.
3rd thing is that moderation should open their minds a little bit and see that this place can be more fruitful if we keep the band members and MEAT happy!

If there is a problem to be fixed, it's first got to be decided what the problem is.
And as a lot of people have different ideas on what the problem is, or wether there is even a problem or not in the first place, that's no mean trick.

Originally Posted by suzieq

When Meat is happy to come to forum then has to read through hurtful things, he passionately defends himself. I believe rightly so. I think NO less of him for doing so and in which manner he does it.

It's not a nice thing to talk about, I certainly don't like talking about it, because it concentrates on all the cons rather than the massive pros of Meat being here, and I don't want this thread to be something that continually bashes Meat like a pinata who's to blame for the forums ills, but sometimes he has gone over the top and blasted people to en extent that can't be easily justified.

In fact, I would go as far to say (if we're leaving all the BS at the door here, because I think the threads usless without honest conversation) if it had been anyone but Meat who had repeatedly posted messages like that, they would have been banned by now.

But as i've posted before, I also understand that Meat is in a unique position on this forum, and is more likely to be personally invested on what is said on the forum.

Respect and tolerance has to run both ways, and that goes for people who wish to criticize too.

Originally Posted by suzieq

He was given a lot of static by fans because he used to use explicit language in his posts upon his defense. HE doesn't do that anymore. He's said it in a respectful way...and guess what, HE'S still getting static.

Again, I hate this, it makes me sound like a Meat basher (OOH MATRON! ) , but he is still apt to fly off the handle. When he left recently, there was no ill meaning in the message posted, but Meat decided to leave the forum.

Originally Posted by suzieq

So no you cannot please all members all the time. But I think you can please band members and Meat pretty easy. Why not edit the posts that can be more Meat/band member friendly? Why not delete posts that leave room for reading between the lines (which we aren't supposed to do)? Maybe doing this enough, the offenders will either lose interest in flaming OR adapt to the existing rules of posting with respect?

How can we keep Meat and the band happy?
By deleting every negative opinion from the board?
If we (the staff) see something that we believe is posted in a way that is offensive through the way it's worded, or posted with an intent to flame, we will edit/delete the post, and warn/infract the poster if we believe there was ill intent.

Again, the recent post which offended Meat was posted by a big supporter of Meat, certainly not somebody I believe would ever want to cause Meat upset, and we all know what happened.

So should a genuinly honest opinion, posted in a respectful manner, not be allowed on this forum because it is not a positive one and might offend Meat?


As for flaming, I don't believe anyone on this forum posts with intent to flame Meat.
Each other, maybe, but not Meat.
From a mod point of view, if we see flaming, we stop it.

Originally Posted by suzieq

RE: Meat posting vs. friends. Meat has been there for me when my friends couldn't be. When I'm mentally alone going through stuff. I'd much rather hear from the man who speaks to me in song, than to keyboard babysit one of my internet friends.

I don't know how relevant this is, but i've got to say although how much I love Meat, my real life friends win hands down

Originally Posted by suzieq

Perhaps some of the mod team are too attached to their friends to moderate according to what some members want.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm reading this and understand you are saying that we do not moderate certain people because they are our friends?

If so, i'm offended by that.
I'm sure I speak for the rest of the staff when I say we take our impartiality very seriously, and I myself have even contacted another mod in the past for their opinion when I felt my impartiality was compromised.

Indeed, in the past i've moderated in favour of someone I truly cannot stand, who had subjected myself and others to a campaign of hate and insult, and got nothing in return but more insult.

Now that's impartial.

Originally Posted by suzieq

Some members want Meat to stop by and post when he can. Some members want band members to feel comfortable here and post when time permits for them. It's very interesting when they do. We get first hand knowledge instead of speculation and inaccuracies.

I'm pretty sure everyone on the forum wants that.

Originally Posted by suzieq

I can't blame Meat for wanting to leave here for good. I do hope an understanding can be met so he doesn't leave. However, it starts from the top and trickles down. So, I'll leave you to it and fix it.

Again, if we're fixing something we first need to know what (if anything) should be fixed.

Originally Posted by suzieq

Meat's not going to change and neither are the members personalities. It's a moderation problem to meld the two together. So the site DOES need to be turned around. Otherwise you guys and gals are babysitters with no control.

Again, i'm seeing no suggestions for possible solution.
You can't fix a problem by pointing at it and saying "fix it".

Babysitters without control?
If you want to use that, the situation is that we found a baby, raised it, then the father turned up and we've got to babysit him too.
I don't know much about babysitting, but I don't think many would do that for 5 quid an hour plus full fridge rights .

Originally Posted by suzieq

Isn't the problem that Meat is upset and he won't come back?

You are aware he's been back and posted, right?

Originally Posted by Monstro

There are issues, I agree that some of the posts on the site can be seen as being somewhat rude and argumentative (those that escape the mods) but most do express the posters feelings in an entirely appropriate and positive way.

Originally Posted by stretch37

..perhaps a poll would help....ffs

Who is the "ffs" aimed at?
Is it because R did not have the foresight to add a poll (despite the fact he had no idea what the hell would be said on the thread at the time).

Is that the kind of respect that's being discussed on this thread?

Originally Posted by Paul Richardson

Surely the purpose of moderation (and I'm sure the Mods will correct me here if I'm wrong) is not to moderate the 'opinions' of posts, but to moderate the 'tone' of posts. A case of not what you say, but how you say it ?

Wanted to make sure everyone saw this

Originally Posted by kkzag

Meat NEEDS an Official Fan Page....like we had on .net

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, either way that's not something that is something that concerns this site or any problems here perceived by members of this forum.

Originally Posted by kkzag

I am by no means putting THIS fan page down...nor suggesting it has to be a "US" site, but I miss the .net paid membership (less trolls) member advantages and up to date tour info. We've lost THAT.

I don't believe this site is particularly a target for trolls.
When you said that .net had less trolling, do you mean that the site was safe because trolls wouldn't pay the join fee, or that if anyone posted an honest but negative opinion (seen as some as trolling) that would be banned from the forum without refund?

Originally Posted by kkzag

Perhaps MLUK could be "it".

I can't speak for the rest of the staff, but I fail to see the point of changing mlukfc to something unrecognizable. You might as well change the name too.

Originally Posted by kkzag

I suppose my suggestion for improvement ultimately is to turn THIS into a paid membership Official fan site... OR having threads and posting ability on the existing Meatloaf.net....

Wether or not mlukfc should ever become a pay site is the sole concern of the site owners.
Nobody else has a say in that.

Not Meat.

Not the members.

Not me.


Again, I fail to see any benefit in changing mlukfc completly in all but name into a clone of the forum on .net.
Not to be too subtle, but how long did the .net forum last?

Originally Posted by robgomm

Members upset each other more than they have upset Meat.

Quoted for truth

Originally Posted by robgomm

They may not always get everything 100% perfect

How very dare you?

Originally Posted by Adje

Just like in the real World.

Yeah, but we have smilies too

Originally Posted by Adje

And just like in the Real World I have an opnion about most people here. Some I like, some I love, some I hate, some I disagree with and at least one person that I completely ignore because I can't stand anything that person says. It actually feels like the 'real thing'

Ignoring people can be an under rated skill.
Quite often i've seen a comment made by someone (which, in no time would have been buried halfway through the thread and lost to humanity until Jonty gets drunk and starts looking for old threads to bump ) get such a reaction that the thread has become a big deal and things have got out of all proportion.

Sometimes the best way to deal with an opinion you don't agree with is to leave it alone and not keep the discussion alive.

Originally Posted by Adje

So what if someone says something 'less nice' about anyone. So what if a person critisizes a performance, cd or song of Meat Loaf.

Because we like to think of this forum as a friendly, welcoming, and civilized place where all fans can come and share their passion for the works of Mr Loaf.

Originally Posted by Adje

so what if Meat Loaf gets upset by it?

Because, IMHO, Meat is someone who has given a lot of pleasure to everyone on this forum (i'm not saying he's not been paid for it, but all the same ).
I believe the vast majority of members have a great deal of respect for Meat and would not repay his hard work with a flippant attitude towards his feelings.

Originally Posted by Adje

Being a fan also means sharing your dissapointment to each other. About anything. And that includes the artist you like so much or even love.

Agreed 100%
That's now it used to be on the forum, sharing thoughts and opinions (good and bad) on Meat's work, but Meat wasn't here then so it wasn't very so much important.
Things were much more relaxed and far less heated.


mlukfc has always been "a fan club run by the fans for the fans".

We've never been "a fan club run by the fans for Meat Loaf".

Once upon a time I would have sworn that they were both one and the same thing.

Originally Posted by Adje

So, should MLUKFC be a 'safe haven' for Meat Loaf? Well it depends on your idea of a safe haven, I guess. For me! It should be a place where Meat knows his fans are. In all their brutal honesty and in all their suport.

This is what MLUKFC should be for me. And at this time still is.

Change "brutal" to "tactful" and i'm with that all the way

Originally Posted by AndyK

As we do move forward I think it'll help if we all drop as many of pur preconceptions about people and our perceived motives behind their posts as we possibly can, easier said than done I know but it'll help a great deal if it's possible?

Very very true

[RSG]

It's been a couple days since I read Metal Loaf's post. I think I remember it having something to do with staying on topic. Unless Metal wrote more, in which case I'm getting to it, I woke up to 65 new posts!
I think to 'fix 'it' is to remain relative to the thread topic at hand.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by RSG

It's been a couple days since I read Metal Loaf's post. I think I remember it having something to do with staying on topic. Unless Metal wrote more, in which case I'm getting to it, I woke up to 65 new posts!
I think to 'fix 'it' is to remain relative to the thread topic at hand.

No, Paul suggested a thread to prevent his thread going off topic, when he commented on the way criticism was being expressed I see the "fix" referring to how the forum can be a place where criticism is undertaken with care and tact .. ie with thought for how those being criticised might read what is written without feeling annoyed or that their their efforts are belittled or dismissed.

I don't expect every person here to like everything Meat records, every performance. However many of us do, and if I do I'll say I do; it is a fan forum after all. I'll post an opinion which is mine. If I can do that without being dismissed or argued against for having it, and the critical opinion is expressed with some thought for how it will come across to Meat or Paul, (both of whom are passionate about what they do, and are very close to it) both views can be expressed with courtesy and some care for the feelings of others. Bluntness isn't that helpful imo on a forum; tact and care is.

Caryl

[AndyK]

I'm sure I speak for the rest of the staff when I say we take our impartiality very seriously, and I myself have even contacted another mod in the past for their opinion when I felt my impartiality was compromised.

I can't remember a time when personal friendships have affected the way the mod team operate, we often have strong (sometimes very strong) discussions between ourselves on the right way forward with an issue, and generally if a mod is personally involved in any way they step back out of that particular situation because of that involvement and let others deal with it.

[lyn]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Not sure why this is addressed to me?

We've been here before. My view is this. I agree with Matt that having the artist visit here is pretty exceptional, and Paul's presence has certainly produced a more positive vibe.

Jenna wrote:

Meat recorded a song called 'All of Me' which basically summed up who he is and I feel that the song was him asking for acceptance for all that he is. We know he's an emotional man, his performances wouldn't have the same passion if he wasn't. Whether we like his emotional side or not, it's him. He is in a unique position in that it's him we are talking about and if I were to get the amount of negatives that he has had to deal with at times, I'd be pretty upset too. He may be the performer and the celebrity but he's a human being and sometimes I think it would be beneficial to try and see things from his point of view.

That sums it up for me. Meat doesn't expect everyone to like everything, and he is open to feedback on his work (and I use the word feedback intentionally, because in my experience once people start talking about giving "constructive criticism" what follows is frequently criticism with little constructive about it, not just here, but everywhere). But feedback needs to be given with an appreciation for the feelings of the person, or they simply can't hear it. And that's important, as is NOT criticising (constructively or otherwise) Meat's character, motivation, integrity and values. They're his and are not his work. And it would be good for people to remember how important his work is to him, how much effort and energy he puts into it, and bear in mind how he will feel when that is criticised.

Yes, opinions are fine .. and so is disagreeing with them. I hate the term "true fan" personally as I have no idea what that means and suspect everyone has a different perspective. But given I suspect I fall into Matt's definition above, I think it's perfectly fair for me to say I disagree with a criticism posted here as long as I don't dismiss it rudely, but simply post my different view .. and as long as I'm not dismissed as being besotted or blinded for not agreeing, I'm perfectly happy to post that view and move on. But tell me that's "typical" of me, or imply my judgement or rationality is flawed by my blindness or insanity and I won't. I don't feel "bullied" .. no-one here puts the food on my table .. but tell me I'm blinded by love or my beliefs/views are wrong and I'll respond. My views may be different, but no less valid. They're just mine.

And I think it's not unreasonable to expect than a fan site, by definition, will have many people posting who DO admire and love the performer and his work. Above all, everyone who posts here should have and show respect for Meat, for his endeavours, his honesty, the quality of the years of work he has given us, even when he produces a piece of work that appeals less to some of us. And respect and care for his feelings. His work is so much a part of him, springs from his inner creativity. He cares about it, he is passionate about it, he is honest about it. He seeks to find and deliver the truth. That means it matters to him. A lot.

You may not like something. This does not mean it has no value, nor that it is crap. It may have no value to you, but it has value to him, and to others .. like me

This should be a no-brainer. It's about exercising thought, care and compassion, not more rules imo.

Caryl

Yes, I wondered was meant about an appology card from you too Caryl, as you have done no wrong, imho

I couldn't have said it better in regard to Caryl's response here too

Imho, as a fan club we really need to show common courtesy, respect and have a civil tongue when discussing issues about Meat and the band :) We also need to do that in regard to each other here Yes we all have our own valid opinions etc, but when expressing them, we need to be civil about it, and pay attention to how we express these opinions, as it is the wording of opinions that can ruffle feathers, upset people, and cause trouble.

We have seen what this latest negative tidal wave has done in regard to Meat. Let's all change this, and become a happier place to be Remember we are all Meat followers/fans here. Let's act like respectable ones eh

The mods! I'll give credit where credit is due You do do a good job, BUT, and please do not take offence to this as it is only honest feedback. But the rules/terms and conditions to follow here need to be somewhat stricter imo There have been certain issues lately that may have been handled better, and certain things that should have been completely removed, but weren't It was some of those things that drove Meat away, and have drove other members away. Some threads were also closed, which was quite understandable, but imo should have been removed due to their content. Otherwise, you are doing well, and I do understand that you have to do what is best for one and all.

[lyn]

Originally Posted by suzieq

So is the consensus that the forum is fine, there is no need to fix it or turn it around?

I'm going to extend an open invitation to all members here. That is if I post anything that offends you as a person, I would like you to pm me so we can discuss it like adults. I can only account for my own posts and man up for any offense I may not realize I am committing.

If I don't know I've offended you, I can't fix it.

Can we truce?

CHSIB Suzieq! And that goes for me too! If I've said something to offend, then PM me too, and we can sort it out that way, not openly on a thread.

[lyn]

Originally Posted by suzieq

I think this thread was how to fix things....but right now I don't see many suggestions "HOW" to do that. I've read about what this site means to other people and yada, yada, but I don't know if anyone has come up with a solid solution of how to fix and turn around the site.

1st thing is that moderation needs to acknowledge that there is a problem to begin with.
2nd thing is to post an update somewhere of what is being done to correct the problems they are working on.
3rd thing is that moderation should open their minds a little bit and see that this place can be more fruitful if we keep the band members and MEAT happy!

Some of the mods here are part of the fibres of the site, so if anyone should know how MEAT is going to react to something, WHY don't you moderate the posts that are going to piss him off? Some mods can probably speak candidly with him and flat out ask him? What would you like to see changed? How can we do a better job for YOU for a site that bears YOUR name so we don't lose you as a member?

When Meat is happy and he's on forum, it is sure delight. He is informative, fun, and answers questions. He may respond to some positive posts. His posts that he can answer....like clearing up the Bat III era....has been just as informative as Paul's Production thread. He was open and honest and answered a lot about that time period we wouldn't otherwise know. When Meat is happy to come to forum then has to read through hurtful things, he passionately defends himself. I believe rightly so. I think NO less of him for doing so and in which manner he does it. However, over the last, what 3 years, I think MEAT has changed. He was given a lot of static by fans because he used to use explicit language in his posts upon his defense. HE doesn't do that anymore. He's said it in a respectful way...and guess what, HE'S still getting static.

So no you cannot please all members all the time. But I think you can please band members and Meat pretty easy. Why not edit the posts that can be more Meat/band member friendly? Why not delete posts that leave room for reading between the lines (which we aren't supposed to do)? Maybe doing this enough, the offenders will either lose interest in flaming OR adapt to the existing rules of posting with respect?

RE: Meat posting vs. friends. Meat has been there for me when my friends couldn't be. When I'm mentally alone going through stuff. I'd much rather hear from the man who speaks to me in song, than to keyboard babysit one of my internet friends. Perhaps some of the mod team are too attached to their friends to moderate according to what some members want. Some members want Meat to stop by and post when he can. Some members want band members to feel comfortable here and post when time permits for them. It's very interesting when they do. We get first hand knowledge instead of speculation and inaccuracies.

I can't blame Meat for wanting to leave here for good. I do hope an understanding can be met so he doesn't leave. However, it starts from the top and trickles down. So, I'll leave you to it and fix it.

CHSIB myself Suzieq :)

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by Paul Richardson

So if we are saying that in order to keep Meat here, similar views and opinions need to be edited or deleted by the Mods (as is suggested above), then I suspect all we will end up with are 'approved' views and opinions, and the site will cease to be a forum in the true sense of the word ...

I don't think this site needs fixing at all ... and if it does need fixing then the 'solution' - (censorship ?) - may be worse than the 'problem'.

"Like"

Originally Posted by Adje

Being a fan also means sharing your dissapointment to each other. About anything. And that includes the artist you like so much or even love.[...]

But, just like Meat Loaf, their ego and personal experience tells them how they feel about things, including Meat Loaf. If they are dissapointed in anything Meat did they should be free to express that here. Because this is a fan community. They don't express their dissapointment because they hate Meat Loaf. They express it because that is what a community like this is about. The fact that others might disagree with the person is no reason to say that person hates. He just has a strong different opinion.

This is a fan community, not a fan cult

Well said- I agree.

On the subject of ignoring posts that annoy us, I think I'm pretty good at doing that on my own. But, other boards I have seen have an "ignore" feature, whereby you can set your preferences so that you never see that person's posts at all (Until someone else quotes them, but that's a different story. lol). I don't know if this site has that capability, but it's a suggestion.

Originally Posted by CarylB

Just like 40 lawyers at the bottom of the sea, thinking about how your post may be interpreted before you hit submit is a good start.

I suppose now might be a good time to tell you that I'm a lawyer?
















(Just kidding, I'm not. Nor do I play one on television. )

[Metal Loaf]

Originally Posted by CarylB

No, Paul suggested a thread to prevent his thread going off topic, when he commented on the way criticism was being expressed I see the "fix" referring to how the forum can be a place where criticism is undertaken with care and tact .. ie with thought for how those being criticised might read what is written without feeling annoyed or that their their efforts are belittled or dismissed.

I don't expect every person here to like everything Meat records, every performance. However many of us do, and if I do I'll say I do; it is a fan forum after all. I'll post an opinion which is mine. If I can do that without being dismissed or argued against for having it, and the critical opinion is expressed with some thought for how it will come across to Meat or Paul, (both of whom are passionate about what they do, and are very close to it) both views can be expressed with courtesy and some care for the feelings of others. Bluntness isn't that helpful imo on a forum; tact and care is.

Caryl

Caryl, your response couldn't be anymore spot-on in regard to the way I view things. Thank you very much.

I'll add...

- Post your opinions as if we were sitting together in a pub, talking over a pint. Basically, comments that you wouldn't have a problem "saying" to me face-to-face.


P

[olblueeyes]

Originally Posted by Metal Loaf

Post your opinions as if we were sitting together in a pub, talking over a pint. Basically, comments that you wouldn't have a problem "saying" to me face-to-face.
P

A lengthy thread this, but I think this comment by Paul neatly sums up the solution in two sentences.

This place is not unlike an online pub, but sometimes it gets a bit too heated. I talk music, movies and politics with the folk in my local and it's always friendly and respectful, even with differing opinions. Any other way and it becomes one of those pubs you say "it's always kicking off in there - I'll try somewhere else for a pint".

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by lyn

It was some of those things that drove Meat away, and have drove other members away.

I'm sorry if i'm repeating myself here (I hate coming back to it because it sounds like i've got nothing to say except rant at Meat), but the most recent post that offended Meat was an honest opinion posted in a respectful manner.
It was not posted by a troll, it was not posted with ill intent, it was not posted to upset Meat, it was posted by somebody who is a supporter of Meat who is, for the most part, very positive about Meat and his career.

If a post like that, posted by a fan like that, is enough to annoy Meat so much he gets upset enough to leave the forum, I really don't know what we are supposed to allow posted on the forum except the sweetest of sickly sweet posts with not a single criticism in sight.

Nobody drove Meat away from the forum.

Nobody drove other members from the forum, they left because Meat was annoyed. Even though they could see that what upset him was not a mean hearted comment posted by someone who wanted to cause Meat any upset.

I'm really at a loss to understand what we are supposed to do short of paint the place with rainbows and fluffy bunnies and not have a bad word said.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

I don't know if this site has that capability, but it's a suggestion.

We do

Your ignore list can be found with your friends list settings.

[AndrewG]

It seems to me like many people do the same thing as Meat has always done here: Ignore the 99% positive reviews and only care about the 1% negative ones. This has been going down here since 2003/2004 I believe.

If you put yourself on a public platform you will get torn down at some point the more you go on I think, some people want to be heard with their negative opinions so they choose a perhaps not so tactful response to be heard. Does it make their opinion more valuable? Well no, but they are getting exactly what they are wanting by everyone making a fuss about it surely? You can't please everyone anyway.

I personally CAN see where some of this negativity is coming from over the last decade on here, or at least I can see why it is happening. Some of the gigs have been up and down in quality and some of the albums too in my opinion. It is a shame Meat and a lot of his current fans seem so hurt by it. But if I am being honest I doubt the negativity will stop any time soon as long as this is an open forum, people cross reference opinions from other platforms such as YouTube or music/concert reviews, the album releases continue, all sorts of collaborations continue and the touring continues. Some of the other artists I've followed/am following are getting the same shit as they are approaching/getting into their sixties or even beyond. "He is losing it / he can't sing anymore / the songs are not of the same quality as before." This is not just related to Meat Loaf in my opinion. At the end of the day I think people should mostly listen to music they enjoy and perhaps not focus so much on things they don't like. It's always disappointing when an artist doesn't do what you expect or want to hear or see (I have this with film makers too - movies by my long time idol Steven Spielberg for example have been mostly lacking since the early 1990s in my opinion for example) but I guess it's just a waste of time worrying too much about it.

I remember one fan forum that only ever seemed to have positive responses. Eventually it fell on its ass and disappeared for good.

Seeing more/only tactful criticism would be good but it really happening? No that's just utopia talk I think. People are far too easily offended by anything these days, as no doubt some will be at my post.

I've been "offended" many times on here as well. When I first joined I was super excited as I thought I'd seen one of the best gigs I'd ever been to and then I had a run in with some guy who was going to file a complaint at the venue because he thought it was so crap. Was I wrong, was he wrong? Was I right, was he right? Neither I think. It's just how you deal with it I guess that will determine if you enjoy your time on this forum or not. Being tactful, yes I think everyone should but you can have an ENDLESS debate about what being tactful means and again I don't think anyone will have the right answer.