What being a fan means to me...

PanicLord · 17 Mar 2010, 00:11

All,

this is a fantastic site, and I love it here. But one thing that has constantly irritated me for years is comments about "sucking up", "being a TRUE fan", "not being allowed a negative opinion". I don't do "personal attack" type posts, but I got mad as hell reading some of the comments on here recently, and so to get it off my chest without having to hurl something, I decided to write down how I see myself as a fan.

I suspect this is different for everyone, so you can agree or not, but this is my definition of what being a fan means to me.

YES - it means that I am positively disposed to whatever Meat does. I look forward with optimism to any new projects announced, and have faith that he will throw his whole heart and soul into it, even (perhaps especially) when it is radically different to what has been done before.

NO - this does not necessarily mean I end up loving or even necessarily liking every single thing that he does, although his batting average is pretty damn high so far!

YES - I love this site, and I love the fact that Meat logs on for direct interaction with people here

NO - it means that if I don't like something he has done, I will not come here and bash it, and will always try to find something positive to say, because to do otherwise...

1. Would be disrespectful / hurtfull to Meat
2. Would be disrespectful to other Meat fans
3. Would be a very strange concept to come on a fan site and post savagely critical remarks
4. May lead to Meat not coming here any more

YES - there are lots of other artists I like but don't particularly consider myself to be a fan of, because I do not feel as strongly about them as I do about Meat Loaf.

NO - I don't believe in "true fans", "proper fans", or degrees of "fan-ness". You are a fan or you are not as far as I am concerned. If you are not a fan, you merely like the artist. This still leaves plenty of room for varying degrees of how much you like an artist or their output. But for me, being a fan means feeling very strongly positive about someone and their output in general, and all the other things I have written above.

YES - I feel much better now after my little essay thank you, but now I need a lie down

Evil One · 17 Mar 2010, 00:15

Praise without constructive criticism is useless.

duke knooby · 17 Mar 2010, 00:17

if you don't like the buffeting many experience from fans... you should consider the dyson bladeless air multiplier (fan)

(only buffeting) messing even

PanicLord · 17 Mar 2010, 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil One

Praise without constructive criticism is useless.

Not at all in my book. I don't believe in finding something critical to say about everything or that nothing is perfect. Praise where praise is due can be enormously motivational and uplifting. If something deserves 10 out of 10, then give it 10 out of 10 is my view.

Evil One · 17 Mar 2010, 00:22

True, but if something is only 9 out of 10, then explain why. If something is dogshit, then explain why.

PanicLord · 17 Mar 2010, 00:28

Agreed, but even when explaining why you believe something to be dogshit, there are (as you say) constructive, helpful, well meaning ways of saying it, and flaming.

However, per my original point, I still don't think a fan site of the artist you are a fan of is the right place to explain in detail why you believe their latest output to be dogshit, especially if the artist themselves are regular visitors.

To me, fans, by definition, would not explain in detail to the person they are a fan of, how much like dogshit what they have done is.

mszee · 17 Mar 2010, 01:05

Well...I pretty much read all of it somewhere before...numerous times...

Except for the Dyson fan part...does he do fans as well as vacuum cleaners?

Julie in the rv mirror · 17 Mar 2010, 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanicLord

Agreed, but even when explaining why you believe something to be dogshit, there are (as you say) constructive, helpful, well meaning ways of saying it, and flaming.

Absolutely. So, why would it be wrong for a "fan" to offer an opinion that was less than stellar, provided it was presented in a respectful, constructive way?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PanicLord

To me, fans, by definition, would not explain in detail to the person they are a fan of, how much like dogshit what they have done is.

This seems to contradict your first paragraph. As a fan, isn't it better to explain why you don't like something, rather than just say that you don't? (And by this, I don't mean pronounce it "dogshit") I would think the artist would appreciate honest (again, respectful, constructive) feedback. Otherwise, I think it's a bit like the Emperor's New Clothes. Personally, I'd want someone to tell me if my ass was hanging out.

(Please keep in mind I'm speaking in general terms and also playing a bit of the Devil's Advocate)

lisa01 · 17 Mar 2010, 01:44

I have been a fan of meat loaf all of my life and been a member of his fan club is fantastic. i love to chat and make new friends. i just wish some of the other members of the fan club would give me a chance all iam doing is saying hello and been friendly iam sorry if that upsets anyone i would be greatfull if everyone could give me a chance on here i know i have made a lot of mistakes and iam sorry ok all iam asking is please give me a chance and i hope i can slowly start to build up some new friendships with everyone on here

mszee · 17 Mar 2010, 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisa01

I have been a fan of meat loaf all of my life and been a member of his fan club is fantastic. i love to chat and make new friends. i just wish some of the other members of the fan club would give me a chance all iam doing is saying hello and been friendly iam sorry if that upsets anyone i would be greatfull if everyone could give me a chance on here i know i have made a lot of mistakes and iam sorry ok all iam asking is please give me a chance and i hope i can slowly start to build up some new friendships with everyone on here

Chance for what? What is it that you're looking for and keep on apologizing for?

mszee · 17 Mar 2010, 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Absolutely. So, why would it be wrong for a "fan" to offer an opinion that was less than stellar, provided it was presented in a respectful, constructive way?

This seems to contradict your first paragraph. As a fan, isn't it better to explain why you don't like something, rather than just say that you don't? (And by this, I don't mean pronounce it "dogshit") I would think the artist would appreciate honest (again, respectful, constructive) feedback. Otherwise, I think it's a bit like the Emperor's New Clothes. Personally, I'd want someone to tell me if my ass was hanging out.

(Please keep in mind I'm speaking in general terms and also playing a bit of the Devil's Advocate)

I think people here explain very clearly what they don't like and why...but the problem might be that recipient of this criticism isn't very happy to hear it...I think most of us already know it...

I don't know how artists feel...unfortunately, I don't have any special talents...so it's hard to say if they are hurt first and then realize that it's constructive criticism...or is it that because they are such an artistic and dramatic souls that they just get hurt by any kind of criticism, even if it comes from their peers...

lisa01 · 17 Mar 2010, 02:09

Hi Mszee when i send friendship requests out to people all iam doing is saying hello and would they like to chat and become friends with another meat loaf fan. i just want people to give me a chance to become friends with other members. all iam looking for is to try and build up friendships with members of the fan club. what iam saying sorry for is to all the members that have gone to the mods on here iam sorry if i have upset anyone all iam trying to do is build up some new friendships on here and thats all iam trying to do

suzieq · 17 Mar 2010, 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil One

Praise without constructive criticism is useless.

I respectfully disagree. For instance, I praise my kids when they do well.....it would serve no benefit to constructively criticize if they've achieved their goal. You got a 98% but if you studied harder you could have gotten 100%. That would borderline obsessive parenting and "pushing" too hard IMO.

Suzieq

mszee · 17 Mar 2010, 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisa01

Hi Mszee when i send friendship requests out to people all iam doing is saying hello and would they like to chat and become friends with another meat loaf fan. i just want people to give me a chance to become friends with other members. all iam looking for is to try and build up friendships with members of the fan club. what iam saying sorry for is to all the members that have gone to the mods on here iam sorry if i have upset anyone all iam trying to do is build up some new friendships on here and thats all iam trying to do

OK...Lisa...I will try to explain this to you...here is a person up above...his name is PanicLord.

He has spent some time thinking about what it means to him to be a Meat Loaf fan what he thinks fans should or shouldn't do, and so on...we all join into the discussion...some agree...some disagree...but we talk about what PanicLord would have liked us to talk about...namely...what it means to each one of us to be a fan of Meat Loaf...so we talk and talk about that...

How about joining into the discussion of what we really discussing? Expressing your feelings and thoughts...discuss, joke, have fun...friends are not acquired by sending friends requests...friends are acquired by being on the same page.

I am not trying to upset you or criticize you...I am just trying to help you understand how to make friends here and not to annoy people with the same ole same ole posts and nobody understands...

(Did I just loose my shit or what????)

CarylB · 17 Mar 2010, 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by suzieq

I respectfully disagree. For instance, I praise my kids when they do well.....it would serve no benefit to constructively criticize if they've achieved their goal. You got a 98% but if you studied harder you could have gotten 100%. That would borderline obsessive parenting and "pushing" too hard IMO.

Suzieq

I think the problem is that although constructive feedback is helpful, and I'm sure Meat (who is his own harshest critic) is open to this, as soon as some people use the phrase "constructive criticism" it becomes more criticism than feedback, and often takes over, so praise for what has gone well is lost.

Saying for eg that something "sucks" tends to hit the feelings hard .. so however "constructive" what follows may be, it's hard for the one on the receiving end to really hear it. And of course, often what follows a bald statement like that isn't constructive (ie helping to build from strengths in performance) but just concentrates on a list of shortcomings.

And as you say Suzie, so often negative feedback concentrates on a small part of overall performance and far less on all that was good. When I go to one of Meat's concerts does he miss the occasional note? Probably. Does he miss the occasional cue? I expect so. But what I notice is all the wonderful stuff that goes so very well, and that is always for me what I remember and what I comment on.

I do understand where PanicLord is coming from, and I sing from pretty much the same choir sheet

But I sense that this will follow the course it usually does when someone opens this debate ..

Caryl

duke knooby · 17 Mar 2010, 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarylB

But I sense that this will follow the course it usually does when someone opens this debate ..

Caryl

probably, but its been somewhere its never been to before, before it goes to where it might end up... its gone to bladeless fan technology now

mszee · 17 Mar 2010, 02:51

Quote:

But I sense that this will follow the course it usually does when someone opens this debate ..

Caryl

Yeah...that's what I said as well...we had numerous debates like these and unless the fire has just gone out from this topic cause it's so old...it always ends in some kind of brawl...

CarylB · 17 Mar 2010, 02:52

@ Lisa

Well you haven't upset me

You always post positively about Meat's work and that's nice to see. No need to apologise, just take it gentle

Caryl

lisa01 · 17 Mar 2010, 02:53

Hi mszee thanks for your oppinons. iam going to take on board what you have said and i know i can change my ways of doing things on here. you havent upset me i guess i just need someone to point out to me how things work on here.

lisa01 · 17 Mar 2010, 02:57

hi caryl i just want to say thanks for your message it means a lot to me to know i have got one good friend on here

Julie in the rv mirror · 17 Mar 2010, 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by mszee

I think people here explain very clearly what they don't like and why...but the problem might be that recipient of this criticism isn't very happy to hear it...I think most of us already know it...

I don't know how artists feel...unfortunately, I don't have any special talents...so it's hard to say if they are hurt first and then realize that it's constructive criticism...or is it that because they are such an artistic and dramatic souls that they just get hurt by any kind of criticism, even if it comes from their peers...

Oh, I hear you. I'm quite sure there is a large emotional element involved. As I said, it depends on how it's presented. Perhaps "criticism" is the wrong word.

I agree with the OP that there is some difference between liking an artist and being a "fan", which, we all know, is short for fanatic.

I consider myself a fan (of any artist) if I have been deeply affected by their art, and like (if not love) more of it than not, and seek it out; if I count some of their songs/albums/performances among my favorite things. Using this criteria, for the record, I consider myself a Meat Loaf fan, and have been since I swiped my older brother's copy of Bat I when I was about 15 years old. (I won't say exactly how long ago that was

)

Now, I think, of course, that part of the "job" of being a fan (of anyone/ anything) is to be a bit of a cheerleader, and that just comes naturally. But, I don't think it makes me any less of a fan if I express a negative opinion now and then. Think of a Randy Jackson-on-Idol-type, "Dude, that wasn't your best performance..." It doesn't mean I love them any less.

Again, I'm not referring to Meat or anything really specifically, just speaking of fandom in general.

mszee · 17 Mar 2010, 04:02

I don't even know anymore what being a fan is...

I honestly thought being a fan is to buy most of the records artist came up with and go occasionally to their concerts...

Little did I know, eh?

meat_loaf2008 · 17 Mar 2010, 04:23

being a fan to me means that i support meat in everything he does, whether i like it or not, and I even try to promote meats work to my friends, hell, i even sing his songs and do my own tribute show at various events around the state for charities when i can be arsed. I have never seen meat live, but i find other ways of supporting him. Isn't that what matters?

suzieq · 17 Mar 2010, 04:35

I'm going to really think about this one before posting however, a quick look up and three references will take a literal definition of fan (short for fanatic) as: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion (Merriam Webster online) OR Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal or with an obsessive enthusiasm for a pastime or hobby (Wiki) OR a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics (Dictionary.com).

I see a common word here: uncritical

So I ask my own self, am I a fan by literal definition...the short answer is yes. I beat to a similar drum as PanicLord but I have slightly different parameters. I will gather those parameters and post a longer form once I have them organized a bit.

Suzieq

carole · 17 Mar 2010, 08:00

I have been a fan of Meat's for over 30 years. I see being a fan as supporting him, buying his albums and going to concerts when I can. Yeah he is not perfect and does occasionally miss a note or forget the words at his shows, but I don't notice any of these things. I get caught up in the moment and just enjoy the experience of being at a Meat Loaf concert. I hate people who say we are arse kissers or sucking up just because we don't criticise him or find fault with every little thing he does. If you don't like a concert, fine. You can't please everyone all the time, but there is a way to say that you didn't like it and why without being rude. Like Caryl said, just saying it sucks is both abrasive and disrespectful. Meat has feelings, and is his own harshest critic and anything constructive he takes on board. Like a few others have said, there are other artists that I like, but they are not in the same league as Meat is. That magnificent voice of his had me hooked right from the very start and I don't think there is any other singer like him or ever will be.

Carole

17 Mar 2010, 00:11	#1
PanicLord Mega Loafer Join Date: 18.06.2003 Location: At The End Of The Line Posts: 2,651	What being a fan means to me... All, this is a fantastic site, and I love it here. But one thing that has constantly irritated me for years is comments about "sucking up", "being a TRUE fan", "not being allowed a negative opinion". I don't do "personal attack" type posts, but I got mad as hell reading some of the comments on here recently, and so to get it off my chest without having to hurl something, I decided to write down how I see myself as a fan. I suspect this is different for everyone, so you can agree or not, but this is my definition of what being a fan means to me. YES - it means that I am positively disposed to whatever Meat does. I look forward with optimism to any new projects announced, and have faith that he will throw his whole heart and soul into it, even (perhaps especially) when it is radically different to what has been done before. NO - this does not necessarily mean I end up loving or even necessarily liking every single thing that he does, although his batting average is pretty damn high so far! YES - I love this site, and I love the fact that Meat logs on for direct interaction with people here NO - it means that if I don't like something he has done, I will not come here and bash it, and will always try to find something positive to say, because to do otherwise... 1. Would be disrespectful / hurtfull to Meat 2. Would be disrespectful to other Meat fans 3. Would be a very strange concept to come on a fan site and post savagely critical remarks 4. May lead to Meat not coming here any more YES - there are lots of other artists I like but don't particularly consider myself to be a fan of, because I do not feel as strongly about them as I do about Meat Loaf. NO - I don't believe in "true fans", "proper fans", or degrees of "fan-ness". You are a fan or you are not as far as I am concerned. If you are not a fan, you merely like the artist. This still leaves plenty of room for varying degrees of how much you like an artist or their output. But for me, being a fan means feeling very strongly positive about someone and their output in general, and all the other things I have written above. YES - I feel much better now after my little essay thank you, but now I need a lie down

17 Mar 2010, 01:44	#9
lisa01 Super Loafer Join Date: 01.04.2009 Location: Ashington in Northumberland Posts: 334	What being a fan means to me I have been a fan of meat loaf all of my life and been a member of his fan club is fantastic. i love to chat and make new friends. i just wish some of the other members of the fan club would give me a chance all iam doing is saying hello and been friendly iam sorry if that upsets anyone i would be greatfull if everyone could give me a chance on here i know i have made a lot of mistakes and iam sorry ok all iam asking is please give me a chance and i hope i can slowly start to build up some new friendships with everyone on here

17 Mar 2010, 00:15	#2
Evil One Mega Loafer Join Date: 15.01.2007 Posts: 5,192	Praise without constructive criticism is useless.

17 Mar 2010, 00:17	#3
duke knooby Mega Loafer Join Date: 24.06.2005 Location: belfast Posts: 17,884	if you don't like the buffeting many experience from fans... you should consider the dyson bladeless air multiplier (fan) (only buffeting) messing even

17 Mar 2010, 00:22	#5
Evil One Mega Loafer Join Date: 15.01.2007 Posts: 5,192	True, but if something is only 9 out of 10, then explain why. If something is dogshit, then explain why.

17 Mar 2010, 00:28	#6
PanicLord Mega Loafer Join Date: 18.06.2003 Location: At The End Of The Line Posts: 2,651	Agreed, but even when explaining why you believe something to be dogshit, there are (as you say) constructive, helpful, well meaning ways of saying it, and flaming. However, per my original point, I still don't think a fan site of the artist you are a fan of is the right place to explain in detail why you believe their latest output to be dogshit, especially if the artist themselves are regular visitors. To me, fans, by definition, would not explain in detail to the person they are a fan of, how much like dogshit what they have done is.

17 Mar 2010, 01:05	#7
mszee Mega Loafer Join Date: 29.03.2006 Location: And you think you're down under??? Posts: 26,252	Well...I pretty much read all of it somewhere before...numerous times... Except for the Dyson fan part...does he do fans as well as vacuum cleaners?

17 Mar 2010, 02:09	#12
lisa01 Super Loafer Join Date: 01.04.2009 Location: Ashington in Northumberland Posts: 334	Hi Mszee when i send friendship requests out to people all iam doing is saying hello and would they like to chat and become friends with another meat loaf fan. i just want people to give me a chance to become friends with other members. all iam looking for is to try and build up friendships with members of the fan club. what iam saying sorry for is to all the members that have gone to the mods on here iam sorry if i have upset anyone all iam trying to do is build up some new friendships on here and thats all iam trying to do

17 Mar 2010, 02:52	#18
CarylB Mega Loafer Join Date: 16.04.2003 Location: Sheffield UK Posts: 5,910	@ Lisa Well you haven't upset me You always post positively about Meat's work and that's nice to see. No need to apologise, just take it gentle Caryl

17 Mar 2010, 02:53	#19
lisa01 Super Loafer Join Date: 01.04.2009 Location: Ashington in Northumberland Posts: 334	Hi mszee thanks for your oppinons. iam going to take on board what you have said and i know i can change my ways of doing things on here. you havent upset me i guess i just need someone to point out to me how things work on here.

17 Mar 2010, 02:57	#20
lisa01 Super Loafer Join Date: 01.04.2009 Location: Ashington in Northumberland Posts: 334	hi caryl i just want to say thanks for your message it means a lot to me to know i have got one good friend on here

17 Mar 2010, 04:02	#22
mszee Mega Loafer Join Date: 29.03.2006 Location: And you think you're down under??? Posts: 26,252	I don't even know anymore what being a fan is... I honestly thought being a fan is to buy most of the records artist came up with and go occasionally to their concerts... Little did I know, eh?

17 Mar 2010, 04:23	#23
meat_loaf2008 Banned Join Date: 10.04.2007 Posts: 462	being a fan to me means that i support meat in everything he does, whether i like it or not, and I even try to promote meats work to my friends, hell, i even sing his songs and do my own tribute show at various events around the state for charities when i can be arsed. I have never seen meat live, but i find other ways of supporting him. Isn't that what matters?

17 Mar 2010, 04:35	#24
suzieq Mega Loafer Join Date: 26.10.2008 Location: West Palm Beach, Florida Posts: 2,319	I'm going to really think about this one before posting however, a quick look up and three references will take a literal definition of fan (short for fanatic) as: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion (Merriam Webster online) OR Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal or with an obsessive enthusiasm for a pastime or hobby (Wiki) OR a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics (Dictionary.com). I see a common word here: uncritical So I ask my own self, am I a fan by literal definition...the short answer is yes. I beat to a similar drum as PanicLord but I have slightly different parameters. I will gather those parameters and post a longer form once I have them organized a bit. Suzieq

17 Mar 2010, 08:00	#25
carole Mega Loafer Join Date: 20.10.2007 Location: Gold Coast Posts: 2,286	I have been a fan of Meat's for over 30 years. I see being a fan as supporting him, buying his albums and going to concerts when I can. Yeah he is not perfect and does occasionally miss a note or forget the words at his shows, but I don't notice any of these things. I get caught up in the moment and just enjoy the experience of being at a Meat Loaf concert. I hate people who say we are arse kissers or sucking up just because we don't criticise him or find fault with every little thing he does. If you don't like a concert, fine. You can't please everyone all the time, but there is a way to say that you didn't like it and why without being rude. Like Caryl said, just saying it sucks is both abrasive and disrespectful. Meat has feelings, and is his own harshest critic and anything constructive he takes on board. Like a few others have said, there are other artists that I like, but they are not in the same league as Meat is. That magnificent voice of his had me hooked right from the very start and I don't think there is any other singer like him or ever will be. Carole