POSITIVITY: APPLY WITHIN.

[TheDoode]

Hey Guys,

Mind if I vent? I didn't think you'd mind

Okay, on the back of Meat's "Something I read..." post I decided to check out some other forums (I'm a total forum noob, never use them, only a member of this one). I wasn't thrilled with what I found. And I definitly didn't join any of them. And here's what I'm talking about:

I don't think the concept of "fan forum" is clear to some people. And I don't think half of the people that post realise how it must feel to receive such a mass of negativity, when you're an artiste striving to do something good and the second it hits the outside world (if not before) there's all kinds of criticism from people who don't get it, and who should know better. The anal nit-picking, the mundane over-analysing... it's gone way too far.

From the artiste's POV a new album/single/video is something that you're putting your entire soul into, man. Can you imagine what an enourmous drag factor that must be? To have your 'fans' question your every move, second guess your intentions, take your words out of context and read between the lines and add in a little artistic license of their own? Everything doesn't have to be cynical.

The amount of positivity and high spirits that an artiste needs to take with him to go out and promote something like this, and be confident, and electric, and everything that we expect to see of any artiste promoting a new album/tour/whatever is phenomenal. And here's the point:

We should be the one's fuelling that fire. The one's cheering him on. It should be a feverish, thrilling time, rife with anticipation and the unknown. It should be about positive speculation. It should be about hopes and dreams and fantasies of what might be. We're the one's at the finish line with the champagne and the six foot banner!

I want Meat to succeed, and I want the album to be an amazing success - I mean, of course I do, hands down, I love Meat's music - and I want Meat to be happy with it. And I want everyone to like it. Of course I do. Not everyone WILL, but I WANT them to. And if they don't, hey, no big deal. But as a fan of this man and his music, I WANT it to succeed beyond his wildest dreams. I want it to be brilliant. And so should you.

Isn't that how it should be..?

[daveake]

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by TheDoode

Hey Guys,

We should be the one's fuelling that fire. The one's cheering him on. It should be a feverish, thrilling time, rife with anticipation and the unknown. It should be about positive speculation. It should be about hopes and dreams and fantasies of what might be. We're the one's at the finish line with the champagne and the six foot banner!

I want Meat to succeed, and I want the album to be an amazing success - I mean, of course I do, hands down, I love Meat's music - and I want Meat to be happy with it. And I want everyone to like it. Of course I do. Not everyone WILL, but I WANT them to. And if they don't, hey, no big deal. But as a fan of this man and his music, I WANT it to succeed beyond his wildest dreams. I want it to be brilliant. And so should you.

Isn't that how it should be..?

You're preaching to the choir here Agree with everything you wrote ... It's been expressed before, but that doesn't make it any the less valid. There are some who won't agree with all of it .. and nor does that make it any the less valid to me .. It should be positive, encouraging and celebratory, and for most people here, most of the time it is.

It won't be everywhere, and for some it won't be consistently so here .. but welcome to the internet world of Meat Loaf I'm not surprised when he reacts like a wounded bear at times; he's someone very special, very talented, unique in many ways, but he's also human, with all the sensitivities that's part of the package for most humans. But I'm heartened by the belief that he's encouraged and feels supported here most of the time. And that's the best we can hope for and work for in my experience.

Caryl

[A Slice Of English]

Regrettably, you will always get that section of people who feel the need to nit-pick, voice concern over certain songs, videos or whatever and generally cast a gloomy picture. The trouble is, this fan site makes no mention in the rules of having to be positive about EVERYTHING. If that was the case, the site would suffer as a result. Plus, I wonder whether Meat would want to be surrounded by "Yes-men" day in and day out? I know I wouldn't, otherwise how would you ever grow as a person? I think Meat has shown that he can accept criticism so long as it is constructive, the biggest problem is when people try and second guess him or suggest how he thinks and/or feels about things. That is not what the site is for. This site is for fans of Meat Loaf. You can be a fan and still offer constructive criticism on the new album and the new songs. But I think the mood on MLUKFC is overall, very positive with regards to the new album.

[meat_loaf2008]

-deep breath- Ok...heres my 2 cents:

I believe that we as fans should embrace any work that Meat puts out. And not judge the work before it even comes out. Now, for those of you that have heard the CD and given us amazing reviews, I am happy for you and thank you for the reviews. However, those of you who HAVENT heard the CD and still comment anyways...on 30 second clips need to give the album a chance. If meat really is as pumped about this album as he seems to be, this will show in the CD as a whole, and we as fans should be just as pumped.We should not be degrading him by saying things like "thats what you always say" and the like....GRANTED, I do believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but its like my grandpa always said: You can have an opinion, but you don't always have to voice it.

[daveake]

Originally Posted by A Slice Of English

The trouble is, this fan site makes no mention in the rules of having to be positive about EVERYTHING. If that was the case, the site would suffer as a result.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by A Slice Of English

Plus, I wonder whether Meat would want to be surrounded by "Yes-men" day in and day out? I know I wouldn't, otherwise how would you ever grow as a person? I think Meat has shown that he can accept criticism so long as it is constructive

He certainly said fairly recently here that he accepts constructive criticism.

Dave

[The Flying Mouse]

I think it's all a matter of balance.
If a forum is full of people who just want to quote Meat saying thank you and CHSIB then it's going to all get very bland very quickly.
Something like a Stepford forum (although, with site staff like us, you'd think you were already there ).

It would be boring for us and of no use to Meat whatsoever.

On the other hand I agree that if Meat can expect support and enthusiasm from anyone he should expect both those things from members of his fan forum.
As a fan, i'm prepared to buy Meat's album without hearing it because I trust I will like it.
I've liked the vast majority of his past work and the chances are that I will like this too.
He's got a good track record, and if a horse had that good a record i'd bet on it.

I can't say that this is best since Bat, that would be silly as i've not heard it, but I can't bash the album either for the same reason.
That would be equally silly.
But I believe him when he says that he believes it's his best since Bat.
It's implied that he says that about every album, but the only album I recall hearing him say that about was CHSIB, and that wasn't a bad album.

I am sometimes surprised by things I read on this forum.
Doing something like blatantly accusing Meat of lying and questioning his integrity is IMHO (and no offence to anyone here) not something I would think of a fan as doing (unless they went to the Mark Chapman school for fandom).

If you dislike someone that much, why be a member of their online community?


Not that I think there is a solution to the problem.
In a perfect world all the yes men would go have their own forum, all the hatters would go form their own forum, and leave the normals here for a bit of interesting yet not offensive convo.

That would work if it wasn't for the fact that some people have their own opinion and the irrisistable urge to share it with every corner of the internet

[R.]

Food blathering moved to a new thread.
Keep this one on topic, please.

[CarylB]

Slice wrote:

You can be a fan and still offer constructive criticism on the new album and the new songs

No disagreement to that at all .. although being constructive is important, and perhaps waiting first to give it a good hearing too And as you say when people try and second guess him indeed attack his motivation or character, that's going to provoke trouble and shouldn't be considered reasonable or something he needs to find here imo.


meat_loaf2008 wrote:

We should not be degrading him by saying things like "thats what you always say" and the like....GRANTED, I do believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, but its like my grandpa always said: You can have an opinion, but you don't always have to voice it.

A good maxim, particularly when you care about and support someone. I doubt Meat, who has said he welcomes constructive criticism of his work, would ask for more.

@ TheDoode

Perfectly reasonable thread imo. Reading some of the off-topic comments here, I say again .. welcome to the internet world of Meat Loaf

But thanks for moving them Rainer

And @ Mouse who wrote:

On the other hand I agree that if Meat can expect support and enthusiasm from anyone he should expect both those things from members of his fan forum.
As a fan, i'm prepared to buy Meat's album without hearing it because I trust I will like it.
I've liked the vast majority of his past work and the chances are that I will like this too.
He's got a good track record, and if a horse had that good a record i'd bet on it.

I can't say that this is best since Bat, that would be silly as i've not heard it, but I can't bash the album either for the same reason.
That would be equally silly.
But I believe him when he says that he believes it's his best since Bat.
It's implied that he says that about every album, but the only album I recall hearing him say that about was CHSIB, and that wasn't a bad album.

I am sometimes surprised by things I read on this forum.
Doing something like blatantly accusing Meat of lying and questioning his integrity is IMHO (and no offence to anyone here) not something I would think of a fan as doing (unless they went to the Mark Chapman school for fandom).

If you dislike someone that much, why be a member of their online community?

Agree with all you say. Balance, fairness and consideration is what it should be about imo.

Caryl

[TheDoode]

Hey folks,

Purely for the record, I'm definitly not talking about a 'yes-man' attitude here. If I go see a film that I don't like, I'll say so, and why it didn't work for me. What I won't do is go to the director's house, invite myself in, and whilst eating the food his wife so loving prepared, let loose with a load of insults, negative speculation, how 'I' (underscored) could have done it better (like sure.......), and then follow that up with "and your next film's going to be shit, too". :-p

Just clairifying the original point - sorry if it's kind of heavy, just being as direct and plain as poss!

Doode.

[TheDoode]

Caryl - thanks and appreciate your words!

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by TheDoode

And I don't think half of the people that post realise how it must feel to receive such a mass of negativity, when you're an artiste striving to do something good and the second it hits the outside world (if not before) there's all kinds of criticism from people who don't get it, and who should know better. The anal nit-picking, the mundane over-analysing... it's gone way too far.

Oh, you mean like when said artist takes his own time to appear on a charity telethon, and people come on to not only express their disappointment with his song choice, but to also critique such (live TV) performance to the point of pointing out how he missed one note on his guitar during the song?


And no, I'm not exaggerating.

[carole]

Originally Posted by TheDoode

Hey Guys,

Mind if I vent? I didn't think you'd mind

Okay, on the back of Meat's "Something I read..." post I decided to check out some other forums (I'm a total forum noob, never use them, only a member of this one). I wasn't thrilled with what I found. And I definitly didn't join any of them. And here's what I'm talking about:

I don't think the concept of "fan forum" is clear to some people. And I don't think half of the people that post realise how it must feel to receive such a mass of negativity, when you're an artiste striving to do something good and the second it hits the outside world (if not before) there's all kinds of criticism from people who don't get it, and who should know better. The anal nit-picking, the mundane over-analysing... it's gone way too far.

From the artiste's POV a new album/single/video is something that you're putting your entire soul into, man. Can you imagine what an enourmous drag factor that must be? To have your 'fans' question your every move, second guess your intentions, take your words out of context and read between the lines and add in a little artistic license of their own? Everything doesn't have to be cynical.

The amount of positivity and high spirits that an artiste needs to take with him to go out and promote something like this, and be confident, and electric, and everything that we expect to see of any artiste promoting a new album/tour/whatever is phenomenal. And here's the point:

We should be the one's fuelling that fire. The one's cheering him on. It should be a feverish, thrilling time, rife with anticipation and the unknown. It should be about positive speculation. It should be about hopes and dreams and fantasies of what might be. We're the one's at the finish line with the champagne and the six foot banner!

I want Meat to succeed, and I want the album to be an amazing success - I mean, of course I do, hands down, I love Meat's music - and I want Meat to be happy with it. And I want everyone to like it. Of course I do. Not everyone WILL, but I WANT them to. And if they don't, hey, no big deal. But as a fan of this man and his music, I WANT it to succeed beyond his wildest dreams. I want it to be brilliant. And so should you.

Isn't that how it should be..?

Yes that is how it should be, and I guess in a perfect world it would be. Meat gets enough criticism from the 'outside world', the media and such, and doesn't need it from his fans too. But he does accept constructive criticism and takes it on board. There is a big difference between constructive criticism and attacking him and his integrity and accusing him of lying. I'm relatively new to the on line fan world, having only had a computer for a couple of years, and at first it was a bit startling to read some of the negative, and sometimes hateful things that get written, and not belonging to any other fan site have nothing to compare it to. It goes without saying I want this album to be a huge success for Meat and I believe wholeheartedly it will be. I love Meat's music too and have done so for 30 odd years now.

Carole

[clpmss]

I have heard 30 second clips of the cd. I know of one song, don't remember the name, I know it was bringing tears to my eyes. I didn't like what I heard but I'm going to wait to hear the whole song before I really decide what I think. People have to be negative, they don't know any other way to be. IMO they are jealous cause they can't achieve the success in their lives that Meat Loaf and others have achieved. I don't know how anyone can critize so horribly by listening to 30 second clips. I don't like all of Meat Loaf's songs but I would rather rip my tongue out before blasting the poop out of one dam song on a cd on a public forum. One song is poop so does that mean the whole cd is poop? No. It's just one song out of how many on a cd? I just skip that song. I would love to see these negative people TRY just try to do what Meat Loaf does. I'm only 45 and I know for a fact that I can't keep up with him. Maybe that's why they are so negative, cause they can't do what others do? Can't do it so bash the poop out of it.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Oh, you mean like when said artist takes his own time to appear on a charity telethon, and people come on to not only express their disappointment with his song choice, but to also critique such (live TV) performance to the point of pointing out how he missed one note on his guitar during the song?

And no, I'm not exaggerating.

Sadly I can believe that .. and yes, that'd do it and rate a powerful ten out of ten on the Mealy-Mouthed-Git scale imo! Sometimes what people can do beggars belief

And @ Doode .. you're welcome :) .. and I do believe that we are many who care and offer support and encouragement; those who simply delight in poking and prodding are few; and all can if they choose remember the effort, passion and conviction that Meat puts into everything he does, and perhaps pause a little and think before they offer criticism and advice, however well intentioned

It takes no time at all to type a comment. It takes a huge amount of time, effort, creativity and energy to deliver an album or a show. The least a fan can do imo is spend some time thinking about how they word what they're going to post, and how it might be read and taken by the man who will come here and read what is posted, and to whom they are giving their thoughts and opinions. Seems to me he has earned the right to expect that at the very least

Caryl

[TheDoode]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Oh, you mean like when said artist takes his own time to appear on a charity telethon, and people come on to not only express their disappointment with his song choice, but to also critique such (live TV) performance to the point of pointing out how he missed one note on his guitar during the song?


And no, I'm not exaggerating.

Are you talking about Springsteen AGAIN?? Just an observation! But for what it's worth - I agree!!!

[TheDoode]

Don't you just miss the days when an album would come out, and you'd know very little about it until the first single hit, and the interviews started, and you saw the posters and the billboards, etc? It used to feel like an event. I was thirteen when Bat II came out - man that was an event!

That said, I love what Meat is doing with the listening parties on Hang Cool. Expecially ensuring that the album isn't just given to journalists and then instantly ends up on youtube and the torrent sites. Smart move! In the way this album has been promoted - special tracks released, chapters of the story, sneak previews - well, it has some of that event-like vibe I was talking about earlier.

I don't know about you guys, but I like that idea

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by TheDoode

Are you talking about Springsteen AGAIN??

Did I mention him?

Sorry, can't help it!

But, in all fairness, you're the one who brought up other fanboards. (Or, maybe you meant just other Meat Loaf fanboards, and I misunderstood). I just thought I'd use an example to add to the discussion. And that was nothing compared to what went on last year even before his last album came out, as you pointed out.

One might ask, then, if it's indeed so negative there, why I continue to go there?

Because, there are also some very positive, knowledgeable, and/or funny people who post there. To me, it's worth wading through the crap to get to the good stuff.

[lisa01]

I personaly feel very positive about meat loaf new album and i know its going to be a very successfull album and my congratulations gose to every one who helped meat loaf and rob to make this new album happen thank you

[renegadeangel]

You know, I don't really care what people have to say. You can't please everyone so why bother trying. Just do your best and go from there.
Meat has said he wants our opinion. The good the bad and the ugly. I think coming from an artist thats more than fair. I like what I've heard so far. I can't wait to hear the rest.
The only thing that is truly annoying is the 'yes-people' who fall all over their keyboard to gush over how great every little thing is.
I think it would be more beneficial to everyone to offer their opinion based on more than
Meat did it so it must be great and I have to tell everyone that"
I enjoy much more reading a valid critique of a song by Meat no matter whether its good or bad. Gives me a new angle to view, a new ear to listen.

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by TheDoode

We should be the one's fuelling that fire. The one's cheering him on. It should be a feverish, thrilling time, rife with anticipation and the unknown. It should be about positive speculation. It should be about hopes and dreams and fantasies of what might be. We're the one's at the finish line with the champagne and the six foot banner!

I want Meat to succeed, and I want the album to be an amazing success - I mean, of course I do, hands down, I love Meat's music - and I want Meat to be happy with it. And I want everyone to like it. Of course I do. Not everyone WILL, but I WANT them to. And if they don't, hey, no big deal. But as a fan of this man and his music, I WANT it to succeed beyond his wildest dreams. I want it to be brilliant. And so should you.

Isn't that how it should be..?

I've got the champagne.....(hiccup)! No, all kidding aside. I feel like a sideline cheerleader at times for Meat. We are the rah-rah, go Meat go chant committee .....yet we are down 36-0 in the fourth quarter, 2 minutes to go, ball not in our hands and we are out of timeouts. We'll still cheer no matter what. So yeah, I'd like to apply for the POSITIVITY POLICE opening. I thought about a thread possibility called: Constructive Criticism and its rebuttle thread called: Supportive Words and Kudos. This way if Meat wanted to hear some kind words he can click there.....if he is needing other feedback, well then he can click there. It would weed out some of the bs. There are pluses to having seperate threads, but at the same time open forum about one topic can be beneficial to the closed minded. It was a fleeting thought. But I've enjoyed this thread (thank goodness R. moved the food circus from earlier).

Originally Posted by TheDoode

That said, I love what Meat is doing with the listening parties on Hang Cool. Expecially ensuring that the album isn't just given to journalists and then instantly ends up on youtube and the torrent sites. Smart move! In the way this album has been promoted - special tracks released, chapters of the story, sneak previews - well, it has some of that event-like vibe I was talking about earlier.

I don't know about you guys, but I like that idea

When I summerized the private listening parties a bit ago...I loved the idea, and still do. I'm hoping the US gets a taste of Meat up close and personal like that. Plus I love the guard Meat has put up around this album. Protecting it and letting it have "an event". This feels like an event to me. So I thank Meat for keeping friends close and enemies closer.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Because, there are also some very positive, knowledgeable, and/or funny people who post there. To me, it's worth wading through the crap to get to the good stuff.

Well said Julie.

Suzieq

[CarylB]

I thought about a thread possibility called: Constructive Criticism and its rebuttle thread called: Supportive Words and Kudos. This way if Meat wanted to hear some kind words he can click there.....if he is needing other feedback, well then he can click there.

All it needs imo is for people to stick to the work and not comment on Meat's character, motives, values etc .. and when they review/comment spend a fraction of the time he's invested in delivering it to us into thinking about what they're writing and how it comes across, and keep it balanced rather than quickly hurling a few negative comments onto the page.

I like reading all the views expressed as long as they're about the work and expressed with courtesy, and I see no reason why Meat wouldn't be the same. We shouldn't need rebuttal threads really should we in a fan club If criticism IS constructive it IS supportive and not destructive .. and I'm not intending to be coralled into a thread which will be labelled by some the kiss-ass thread ..

I have no facility for picking up a strange almost inaudible sound on an album, or to analyse or criticise the musical arrangements, so I don't offer that. Meat hasn't produced an album I haven't enjoyed. That's not because I'm just a yes person gushing over my keyboard .. I happen to love his voice, his clarity, his performances, which is why I'm a fan.

I have heard this album and, like the others here who went to the playback, I was blown away by its power. It's very different to his previous albums, and I'm sure there will be those who aren't as blown away as we were. To me it's not operatic and doesn't have the "bombast" traditionally associated with Meat's recordings. I fed that back .. to me that's not a criticism, because I loved the clean real sound. Some will miss that .. I didn't. But that's how I feed back. When I review concerts I acknowledge that he may well have missed a note or a cue here or there, but then describe what I saw, heard and felt that made it a great evening .. because frankly I don't notice the odd fluffed note or cue. Others may, but I really don't. I always have a wonderful night of rock and roll, and that's what I write about. It's not kissing ass .. it's the simple truth. And frankly, when I read reviews of concerts I haven't been to I want to hear all the great things that made it special, what people enjoyed.

If people remember the effort and energy that Meat's put into what he does and adopt the Mrs Do As You Would Be Done By principle, plus refrain from criticising his motives and beliefs, we should all be able to rub along in the same thread

Caryl

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I like reading all the views expressed as long as they're about the work and expressed with courtesy, and I see no reason why Meat wouldn't be the same. We shouldn't need rebuttal threads really should we in a fan club If criticism IS constructive it IS supportive and not destructive .. and I'm not intending to be coralled into a thread which will be labelled by some the kiss-ass thread ..

Yes, that's why I found the thought fleeting...because I actually found more negatives than positives in posting the independent threads. People may fear being labeled as those in the kiss-ass thread and not post their opinions, thanks, or kudos due to that fear. Which sux, but cyber bullying would have the opportunity to reign supreme with the more passive players in the sand box. I read the criticism with an open mind. It seems Meat respects the intelligent thoughts behind it. Likewise I respect the constructive criticism. I also respect the balance.

[Kathy]

Yes that *is* how it should be! Doode, you have come out of the blue like a breath of fresh air. I saw a couple of your posts and wondered how long it would take for you to succumb to peer pressure and start being cool and above it all. Does that make me cynical?

I love how you said:

Originally Posted by TheDoode

We should be the one's fuelling that fire. The one's cheering him on. It should be a feverish, thrilling time, rife with anticipation and the unknown. It should be about positive speculation. It should be about hopes and dreams and fantasies of what might be. We're the one's at the finish line with the champagne and the six foot banner!

And there's no reason why we can't have this attitude and still be honest! "Yes-men" are not honest!!! But being positive doesn't make you a yes-man. Neither does cheering Meat on when he's made a post or tweet you like, or supporting him elsewhere whenever you get the chance, or genuinely anticipating his new album with great excitement and saying so. We're here on this forum because we already love what Meat does; he should be able to depend upon that as a given.

I love your attitude and the perceptive way you write about the amount of positivity an artist needs "to go out and promote something like this, and be confident, and electric..." I love that! So, sign me up for the positivity movement! I'll spring for the champagne!
-Kathy

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by Kathy

And there's no reason why we can't have this attitude and still be honest! "Yes-men" are not honest!!! But being positive doesn't make you a yes-man. Neither does cheering Meat on when he's made a post or tweet you like, or supporting him elsewhere whenever you get the chance, or genuinely anticipating his new album with great excitement and saying so. We're here on this forum because we already love what Meat does; he should be able to depend upon that as a given.

I love your attitude and the perceptive way you write about the amount of positivity an artist needs "to go out and promote something like this, and be confident, and electric..." I love that! So, sign me up for the positivity movement! I'll spring for the champagne!
-Kathy

I love reading your posts Kathy. You are point on (with Doode)! You know what made me so sad....so very sad....VH1, Behind the Music used a line and it hit my heart with a mallet.....paraphrasing: Meat lost it all, his fans had turned on him. They used this line in the original and they used it in the remastered. But, if this is how Meat felt......I can NOT say loud enough that this fan (ME) never, ever, ever turned on him. I just didn't know he felt that way. With internet it's easier to see his feelings and it's way easier to see other's feelings towards Meat. I never would want Meat to feel like we've turned on him. Maybe that's part of my reason for being positively pre-disposed to whatever Meat's involved with.


Suzieq