The Steinman Connections

[ashkent7]

I’ve been listening to Meat’s songs for a long time, and once I was old enough to notice the difference in his work with Jim compared to other work, I then went on to hunt down all of Jim’s other projects.

It is not hard to see the connections in Jim’s songs even without really trying – the fact that “I remember every little thing as if happened only yesterday” appears in the opening lines of Paradise and Love and Death and an American Guitar (Wasted Youth), the Godspeed section from Bad For Good/Graveyard Shift/Nowhere Fast etc, the guitar riff from Good Girls Go To Heaven reused in Seize The Night, the opening of Surfs Up, which appears as the opening of Angels Arise. – but how many times have you noticed something so small you don’t notice it at first.

There are so many connections to find, I almost feel like it’s the musical version of collecting Pokemon that everyone seems so involved in again. The Vaults OF Heaven was used in the Whistle Down the Wind song, but also in the demo song sung by Rory Dodd, which in turn has the melody from For Sarah from Tanz and DOTV, which was recycled from one of Jim’s very early productions.

One that I noticed the other day was a small guitar riff in Frying Pan (it wasn't in Jim's version but is in Meat's and especially noticeable in live versions) that comes in around the bridge behind the line “Follow the sound of my heartbeat now”. It’s very short, but if you isolate it and with a variance of speed, a virtually identical little licks appear in Bat (“When the metal is hot and the engine is hungry”), I’m pretty certain it’s at the start of the instrumental before the last verse of More Than You Deserve…

I actually started referencing the links between Jim’s song’s quite a while ago when I was bored and had nothing but spare time and I kind of feel like going back to it with the arrival of Braver and the Bat Musical.
Has anyone else had a moment listening to a song then suddenly think “hang on, that moment is identical to that one” with something that is quite subtle? Or maybe just one that is blatantly there that you somehow missed for a long time?

[Danny L]

Basically Jim is the greenest (and the greatest!) songwriter in the world. Thisis entirely on purpose.

He si always recycling.

It's all part of his Neverland vision.

[proctorloaf]

Jim writes brilliant melodies. Sometimes he uses them in ways that aren't complete and then he revisits them until he finds the correct place for them to live forever. One of his most beautiful songs is Milady or Fur Sarah in Tanz. It's gorgeous. It's never found an english version home but it lives in Tanz. The melody has been used in various projects for 40 years.

[ashkent7]

Originally Posted by proctorloaf

Jim writes brilliant melodies. Sometimes he uses them in ways that aren't complete and then he revisits them until he finds the correct place for them to live forever. One of his most beautiful songs is Milady or Fur Sarah in Tanz. It's gorgeous. It's never found an english version home but it lives in Tanz. The melody has been used in various projects for 40 years.

It's a shame the Vaults of Heaven (the version that uses that melody) was never done as it is probably one of Jim's great lost songs.

[rockfenris2005]

Ones I can list:

Come in the night (Dream Engine) - Verses are "Turn around bright eyes" musically, and obviously some of the lyrics too.
Who needs the young? (Dream Engine/Neverland) - Music shows up in crypt sequence in "Tanz" but not DOTV (which missed about 30% of the music?)
Hymn to fire (Dream Engine) - The riff is "The storm" and later "Tanz" Overture.
Entr'acte (Dream Engine) - Contains music that later becomes "Stark raving love", "Happy ending" and second half of "Bad for good" (which is "Hear the screams" in this show).
Mother River Song (Dream Engine) - "Ganges River" from Jim's very first score, Brecht's "A Man's A Man". The middle shows up in the instrumental for "Give me the simple life" "More than you deserve".
Hear the screams (Dream Engine) - Music later becomes another section of "Simple life" ("Gimme right now, before I have to take it)", first part of "Edging into darkness" Confidence Man, presumably "Kingdom come" Neverland workshop, second half of "Bad for good" and by extension "Nowhere fast" (not the Meat Loaf version) and "Graveyard shift". "Hear the screams" also has the lines "God speed"
Could she be the one? (More Than You Deserve) - "Tell me now, now who's playing this game?" "Souvenirs"
Come With Me (More Than You Deserve) - Jim must love this one. "Come with me" itself shows up again and again, in songs like "For crying out loud", "Left in the dark", "The future ain't what it used to be", "Seize the night", and to my ears parts of "Tonight is what it means to be young". This whole piece shows up again first in "Neverland" musically and lyrically, and then musically at the castle in "Tanz" (not the complete on Broadway.)
Song of the city of hope (More Than You Deserve) - The second half is "Rainbow" from "Rhinegold". The music also shows up again in Jim's score for "A small circle of friends" and Rory's "Vaults of Heaven" demo. The music for the verses becomes "Lost boys and golden girls" later on.
Go Go Go Guerrillas (More Than You Deserve) - Joker's song from the "Batman" musical.
If Only (More Than You Deserve) - fragments of "Seize the night" (Carpe Noctem! Carpe Noctem!)
Song of the golden egg (More Than You Deserve) - fragment of "Nocturnally yours" Confidence Man and later "God has left the building" instrumental opening dance from DOTV (not in Tanz).
Chinkachain (Rhinegold) - Part of this turns up again in "The Hunt" Neverland.
Master of the Earth (Rhinegold) - Parts of "The Hunt" again (It gets complicated with these earlier shows. There's more I could list.)
New Orleans is comin' to me (Confidence Man) - The music later becomes "The future ain't what it used to be".
Melville's theme (Confidence Man) - Music becomes "And I never really sleep anymore" for "It just won't quit". Not on the CD.
Edging into darkness (Confidence Man) - Contains music from "Bad for good" and "Making love out of nothing at all". I also hear the chorus to "Bat out of Hell" but that's probably just my ears.
Nocturnally yours (Confidence Man) - Film score "A small circle of friends" and I can hear bits of it in "Dark night of the soul" Garbo.
Pain humbles (Confidence Man) - fragments from "The Storm" (music from "The Hunt" as well which shows up in "The Storm".)
Sanctimonious Sambo (Confidence Man) - riff in the stage version, NOT on the CD, reminds me of "I'm gonna love her for both of us" riff
Milady (Confidence Man) - a superb melody, which shows up again and again in "Small circle of friends", "Vaults of Heaven" and "Tanz".
Something of this masquerade may follow (Confidence Man) - Part of the chorus later becomes "Braver than we are" musically. Music from "Braver than we are" also comes from an early play Jim did in the 70s.
Private of privates (Bloodshot wine) - The riff reminds me of "Death is such an odd thing" from Tanz. The second part is the middle of "Hero" ("Up where the mountains meet the heavens above") which was also played on the 1982 Meat Loaf tour. Before that, it was in the instrumental for "All revved up" Neverland workshop.
City night (Neverland) - Music shows up at the castle in "Tanz" but not DOTV.
Gods (Neverland) - originally from "The Good Woman of Setzuan", then we get "Bolero" and later "Eternity" from "Tanz" & DOTV.
Dance in my pants (Neverland) - some version of the Bad for good song.
Stark raving love (Bad for good) - The riff goes into "Holding out for a hero". Music goes back to Dream Engine.
Out of the frying pan (And into the fire) (Bad for good) - Riff shows up in Jim's song "A kiss is a terrible thing to waste" recorded by Everly Brothers and eventually released in 2005.
Surf's up (Bad for good) - Riff shows up again as the instrumental to "The future ain't what it used to be" original Pandora's Box version, also "Angels arise".
Left in the dark (Bad for good) - Music from "Souvenirs" (it's definitely the same music. You're not imagining things.) This song also has fragments of "Come with me" (listen to the very end, and also "And you'll know love forever You'll know love forever more Forever more!" with the orchestra before Jim comes back in.)
More than you deserve (Dead ringer) - Riff goes into "The future".
Dead ringer for love (Dead ringer) - Music from "Delta House Theme"
Total eclipse of the heart (Faster than the speed of night) - This comes back gloriously as the big love song in "Tanz".
Tonight is what it means to be young (Streets of fire) - Music becomes the finale for "Tanz".
Loving you's a dirty job (But somebody's gotta do it) - Intro appeared in earlier form in "A small circle of friends".
Rebel without a clue (Secret dreams and forbidden fire) - The riff always makes me think of "You took the words" but I could be wrong.
Original sin (Original sin) - The music goes into "Tanz".
The opening of the box (Original sin) - This is literally the second half of "The storm" sampled from the original.
More (Sisters of mercy) - Jim writes a whole new song around "I need all the love I can get" for the Catwoman's song in Batman. This version is phenomenal.
Objects in the rear view mirror (Bat 2) - Music becomes "The endless appetite" in Tanz but with a twist.
Good girls go to heaven (Bat 2) - The riff from the Meat Loaf version goes into "Seize the night" Tanz later recorded on Bat3.
In the land of the pig (Batman & Bat3) - The lyrics for the chorus date back to a draft of "Dream Engine".
Cry to heaven (Bat3) - This is the music from "Angels arise" which originally starts off in "Batman", gets rewritten for DOTV, and then this version which I heard was done as a demo for a "Cry Baby" musical.

[Danny L]

Originally Posted by rockfenris2005

Ones I can list:

Come in the night (Dream Engine) - Verses are "Turn around bright eyes" musically, and obviously some of the lyrics too.
Who needs the young? (Dream Engine/Neverland) - Music shows up in crypt sequence in "Tanz" but not DOTV (which missed about 30% of the music?)
Hymn to fire (Dream Engine) - The riff is "The storm" and later "Tanz" Overture.
Entr'acte (Dream Engine) - Contains music that later becomes "Stark raving love", "Happy ending" and second half of "Bad for good" (which is "Hear the screams" in this show).
Mother River Song (Dream Engine) - "Ganges River" from Jim's very first score, Brecht's "A Man's A Man". The middle shows up in the instrumental for "Give me the simple life" "More than you deserve".
Hear the screams (Dream Engine) - Music later becomes another section of "Simple life" ("Gimme right now, before I have to take it)", first part of "Edging into darkness" Confidence Man, presumably "Kingdom come" Neverland workshop, second half of "Bad for good" and by extension "Nowhere fast" (not the Meat Loaf version) and "Graveyard shift". "Hear the screams" also has the lines "God speed"
Could she be the one? (More Than You Deserve) - "Tell me now, now who's playing this game?" "Souvenirs"
Come With Me (More Than You Deserve) - Jim must love this one. "Come with me" itself shows up again and again, in songs like "For crying out loud", "Left in the dark", "The future ain't what it used to be", "Seize the night", and to my ears parts of "Tonight is what it means to be young". This whole piece shows up again first in "Neverland" musically and lyrically, and then musically at the castle in "Tanz" (not the complete on Broadway.)
Song of the city of hope (More Than You Deserve) - The second half is "Rainbow" from "Rhinegold". The music also shows up again in Jim's score for "A small circle of friends" and Rory's "Vaults of Heaven" demo. The music for the verses becomes "Lost boys and golden girls" later on.
Go Go Go Guerrillas (More Than You Deserve) - Joker's song from the "Batman" musical.
If Only (More Than You Deserve) - fragments of "Seize the night" (Carpe Noctem! Carpe Noctem!)
Song of the golden egg (More Than You Deserve) - fragment of "Nocturnally yours" Confidence Man and later "God has left the building" instrumental opening dance from DOTV (not in Tanz).
Chinkachain (Rhinegold) - Part of this turns up again in "The Hunt" Neverland.
Master of the Earth (Rhinegold) - Parts of "The Hunt" again (It gets complicated with these earlier shows. There's more I could list.)
New Orleans is comin' to me (Confidence Man) - The music later becomes "The future ain't what it used to be".
Melville's theme (Confidence Man) - Music becomes "And I never really sleep anymore" for "It just won't quit". Not on the CD.
Edging into darkness (Confidence Man) - Contains music from "Bad for good" and "Making love out of nothing at all". I also hear the chorus to "Bat out of Hell" but that's probably just my ears.
Nocturnally yours (Confidence Man) - Film score "A small circle of friends" and I can hear bits of it in "Dark night of the soul" Garbo.
Pain humbles (Confidence Man) - fragments from "The Storm" (music from "The Hunt" as well which shows up in "The Storm".)
Sanctimonious Sambo (Confidence Man) - riff in the stage version, NOT on the CD, reminds me of "I'm gonna love her for both of us" riff
Milady (Confidence Man) - a superb melody, which shows up again and again in "Small circle of friends", "Vaults of Heaven" and "Tanz".
Something of this masquerade may follow (Confidence Man) - Part of the chorus later becomes "Braver than we are" musically. Music from "Braver than we are" also comes from an early play Jim did in the 70s.
Private of privates (Bloodshot wine) - The riff reminds me of "Death is such an odd thing" from Tanz. The second part is the middle of "Hero" ("Up where the mountains meet the heavens above") which was also played on the 1982 Meat Loaf tour. Before that, it was in the instrumental for "All revved up" Neverland workshop.
City night (Neverland) - Music shows up at the castle in "Tanz" but not DOTV.
Gods (Neverland) - originally from "The Good Woman of Setzuan", then we get "Bolero" and later "Eternity" from "Tanz" & DOTV.
Dance in my pants (Neverland) - some version of the Bad for good song.
Stark raving love (Bad for good) - The riff goes into "Holding out for a hero". Music goes back to Dream Engine.
Out of the frying pan (And into the fire) (Bad for good) - Riff shows up in Jim's song "A kiss is a terrible thing to waste" recorded by Everly Brothers and eventually released in 2005.
Surf's up (Bad for good) - Riff shows up again as the instrumental to "The future ain't what it used to be" original Pandora's Box version, also "Angels arise".
Left in the dark (Bad for good) - Music from "Souvenirs" (it's definitely the same music. You're not imagining things.) This song also has fragments of "Come with me" (listen to the very end, and also "And you'll know love forever You'll know love forever more Forever more!" with the orchestra before Jim comes back in.)
More than you deserve (Dead ringer) - Riff goes into "The future".
Dead ringer for love (Dead ringer) - Music from "Delta House Theme"
Total eclipse of the heart (Faster than the speed of night) - This comes back gloriously as the big love song in "Tanz".
Tonight is what it means to be young (Streets of fire) - Music becomes the finale for "Tanz".
Loving you's a dirty job (But somebody's gotta do it) - Intro appeared in earlier form in "A small circle of friends".
Rebel without a clue (Secret dreams and forbidden fire) - The riff always makes me think of "You took the words" but I could be wrong.
Original sin (Original sin) - The music goes into "Tanz".
The opening of the box (Original sin) - This is literally the second half of "The storm" sampled from the original.
More (Sisters of mercy) - Jim writes a whole new song around "I need all the love I can get" for the Catwoman's song in Batman. This version is phenomenal.
Objects in the rear view mirror (Bat 2) - Music becomes "The endless appetite" in Tanz but with a twist.
Good girls go to heaven (Bat 2) - The riff from the Meat Loaf version goes into "Seize the night" Tanz later recorded on Bat3.
In the land of the pig (Batman & Bat3) - The lyrics for the chorus date back to a draft of "Dream Engine".
Cry to heaven (Bat3) - This is the music from "Angels arise" which originally starts off in "Batman", gets rewritten for DOTV, and then this version which I heard was done as a demo for a "Cry Baby" musical.

Fantastic work! Also little pieces of lyric are quoted here and there - as a fan I like it - it's as if everything Steinman has ever worked on is connected some how, like one big musical tapestry.

I don't know anyone else who's approached their work in the same way.

[ashkent7]

Originally Posted by rockfenris2005

Ones I can list:

Come in the night (Dream Engine) - Verses are "Turn around bright eyes" musically, and obviously some of the lyrics too.
Who needs the young? (Dream Engine/Neverland) - Music shows up in crypt sequence in "Tanz" but not DOTV (which missed about 30% of the music?)
Hymn to fire (Dream Engine) - The riff is "The storm" and later "Tanz" Overture.
Entr'acte (Dream Engine) - Contains music that later becomes "Stark raving love", "Happy ending" and second half of "Bad for good" (which is "Hear the screams" in this show).
Mother River Song (Dream Engine) - "Ganges River" from Jim's very first score, Brecht's "A Man's A Man". The middle shows up in the instrumental for "Give me the simple life" "More than you deserve".
Hear the screams (Dream Engine) - Music later becomes another section of "Simple life" ("Gimme right now, before I have to take it)", first part of "Edging into darkness" Confidence Man, presumably "Kingdom come" Neverland workshop, second half of "Bad for good" and by extension "Nowhere fast" (not the Meat Loaf version) and "Graveyard shift". "Hear the screams" also has the lines "God speed"
Could she be the one? (More Than You Deserve) - "Tell me now, now who's playing this game?" "Souvenirs"
Come With Me (More Than You Deserve) - Jim must love this one. "Come with me" itself shows up again and again, in songs like "For crying out loud", "Left in the dark", "The future ain't what it used to be", "Seize the night", and to my ears parts of "Tonight is what it means to be young". This whole piece shows up again first in "Neverland" musically and lyrically, and then musically at the castle in "Tanz" (not the complete on Broadway.)
Song of the city of hope (More Than You Deserve) - The second half is "Rainbow" from "Rhinegold". The music also shows up again in Jim's score for "A small circle of friends" and Rory's "Vaults of Heaven" demo. The music for the verses becomes "Lost boys and golden girls" later on.
Go Go Go Guerrillas (More Than You Deserve) - Joker's song from the "Batman" musical.
If Only (More Than You Deserve) - fragments of "Seize the night" (Carpe Noctem! Carpe Noctem!)
Song of the golden egg (More Than You Deserve) - fragment of "Nocturnally yours" Confidence Man and later "God has left the building" instrumental opening dance from DOTV (not in Tanz).
Chinkachain (Rhinegold) - Part of this turns up again in "The Hunt" Neverland.
Master of the Earth (Rhinegold) - Parts of "The Hunt" again (It gets complicated with these earlier shows. There's more I could list.)
New Orleans is comin' to me (Confidence Man) - The music later becomes "The future ain't what it used to be".
Melville's theme (Confidence Man) - Music becomes "And I never really sleep anymore" for "It just won't quit". Not on the CD.
Edging into darkness (Confidence Man) - Contains music from "Bad for good" and "Making love out of nothing at all". I also hear the chorus to "Bat out of Hell" but that's probably just my ears.
Nocturnally yours (Confidence Man) - Film score "A small circle of friends" and I can hear bits of it in "Dark night of the soul" Garbo.
Pain humbles (Confidence Man) - fragments from "The Storm" (music from "The Hunt" as well which shows up in "The Storm".)
Sanctimonious Sambo (Confidence Man) - riff in the stage version, NOT on the CD, reminds me of "I'm gonna love her for both of us" riff
Milady (Confidence Man) - a superb melody, which shows up again and again in "Small circle of friends", "Vaults of Heaven" and "Tanz".
Something of this masquerade may follow (Confidence Man) - Part of the chorus later becomes "Braver than we are" musically. Music from "Braver than we are" also comes from an early play Jim did in the 70s.
Private of privates (Bloodshot wine) - The riff reminds me of "Death is such an odd thing" from Tanz. The second part is the middle of "Hero" ("Up where the mountains meet the heavens above") which was also played on the 1982 Meat Loaf tour. Before that, it was in the instrumental for "All revved up" Neverland workshop.
City night (Neverland) - Music shows up at the castle in "Tanz" but not DOTV.
Gods (Neverland) - originally from "The Good Woman of Setzuan", then we get "Bolero" and later "Eternity" from "Tanz" & DOTV.
Dance in my pants (Neverland) - some version of the Bad for good song.
Stark raving love (Bad for good) - The riff goes into "Holding out for a hero". Music goes back to Dream Engine.
Out of the frying pan (And into the fire) (Bad for good) - Riff shows up in Jim's song "A kiss is a terrible thing to waste" recorded by Everly Brothers and eventually released in 2005.
Surf's up (Bad for good) - Riff shows up again as the instrumental to "The future ain't what it used to be" original Pandora's Box version, also "Angels arise".
Left in the dark (Bad for good) - Music from "Souvenirs" (it's definitely the same music. You're not imagining things.) This song also has fragments of "Come with me" (listen to the very end, and also "And you'll know love forever You'll know love forever more Forever more!" with the orchestra before Jim comes back in.)
More than you deserve (Dead ringer) - Riff goes into "The future".
Dead ringer for love (Dead ringer) - Music from "Delta House Theme"
Total eclipse of the heart (Faster than the speed of night) - This comes back gloriously as the big love song in "Tanz".
Tonight is what it means to be young (Streets of fire) - Music becomes the finale for "Tanz".
Loving you's a dirty job (But somebody's gotta do it) - Intro appeared in earlier form in "A small circle of friends".
Rebel without a clue (Secret dreams and forbidden fire) - The riff always makes me think of "You took the words" but I could be wrong.
Original sin (Original sin) - The music goes into "Tanz".
The opening of the box (Original sin) - This is literally the second half of "The storm" sampled from the original.
More (Sisters of mercy) - Jim writes a whole new song around "I need all the love I can get" for the Catwoman's song in Batman. This version is phenomenal.
Objects in the rear view mirror (Bat 2) - Music becomes "The endless appetite" in Tanz but with a twist.
Good girls go to heaven (Bat 2) - The riff from the Meat Loaf version goes into "Seize the night" Tanz later recorded on Bat3.
In the land of the pig (Batman & Bat3) - The lyrics for the chorus date back to a draft of "Dream Engine".
Cry to heaven (Bat3) - This is the music from "Angels arise" which originally starts off in "Batman", gets rewritten for DOTV, and then this version which I heard was done as a demo for a "Cry Baby" musical.

Excellent breakdown...particularly of his really early stuff.

I had a lot of those - the mains ones I didn't are from The Confidence Man...I first hear it when i didn't really have much time and skimmed then never went back to it, but i now feel the need

And I think the Come With Me part in Tonight is What It Means to be Young does sound very similar if you compare "Come with me and bless the night", with "Let the revels begin,let the fire be started". I hadn't noticed that before but as soon as you mentioned it, it was like it was just there plain to see even without listening to the song itself.

And you are right with his really early plays...there are so many parts scattered everywhere, it's - as already said - like a tapesty. But i think it is a bit more, and it is as though in those first plays everything Jim had came gushing out in this Frankenstein tapestry that he then spent the next forty odd years picking apart and putting together in the right places.

[ashkent7]

And there is always this often forgotten piece

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efQlv3wPS4o

[Wario]

Skull of Your Country was also done live in 1988

[rockfenris2005]

Jim is a BRILLIANT example of something I really love with this kind of stuff: CONTINUITY.

Of course you get CONTINUITY with Jim because of, example, riff for "Stark raving love" in "Holding out for a hero". I love that.

I don't know if Jim was consciously intentionally writing it all as "Neverland", but I think it works out that way anyway in the end. They all could be characters in Neverland. And don't forget that there were more adventures. Bat 2 could have been like Wendy going back to Neverland or something haha.

Edit: If I think about it, that's really interesting. Peter always stays the same. And Hook probably always keeps coming back. Like how he was still alive in "Hook" and abducted his kids.

[ashkent7]

Originally Posted by rockfenris2005

Jim is a BRILLIANT example of something I really love with this kind of stuff: CONTINUITY.

Of course you get CONTINUITY with Jim because of, example, riff for "Stark raving love" in "Holding out for a hero". I love that.

I don't know if Jim was consciously intentionally writing it all as "Neverland", but I think it works out that way anyway in the end. They all could be characters in Neverland. And don't forget that there were more adventures. Bat 2 could have been like Wendy going back to Neverland or something haha.

Edit: If I think about it, that's really interesting. Peter always stays the same. And Hook probably always keeps coming back. Like how he was still alive in "Hook" and abducted his kids.

Fully agree...It's like when you watch a musical and get the Overture with snippets of the melodies and such. I am sure that a story could be built around all of Jim's songs (the ones that aren't exclusively linked to a story already anyway - basically any studio album recorded song) and if you take a handful of riffs from things like Good Girls and Frying Pan and you cover a lot of ground.

A couple of times (One of them being the classic albums interviews about Bat i think) it has been said that everything Jim has ever written goes into Neverland, and I'm sure that's been true of everything since - even the stuff written for the likes of Batman. To my knowledge it is something unique, and I also believe a lot harder than many give credit for. Anyone can go away and write something completely different with a different feel and dynamic, but to fit everything within the world you have created, keeping the tone and feel the same, working something familiar into something unheard, takes a very special mind and method to work.