Forum Change discussion

[Mike Piercy]

We have to resolve the vitriolic PMing and forum posting once and for all.

I'd like Fan Club MEMBERS to let us know what they want on this site, whether they want a Members only area and what they would like to see moved in to it.

I'll raise this issue with my colleagues and we'll see how to sort these issues out.

To respectful non-member forum users we want you on the site but we are going to have to do something about those who abuse the privilege.

We have tried to cojole non-members into voluntarily paying towards the site upkeep funded from members contributions by purchasing back numbers of RVM. Only a few have done so. We have offered current issues of RVM only one/two have bought. A few have taken out membership and we thank you sincerely.

We can no longer support the rest financially without change and we'll be discussing how to protect our fan members who fund this site which may result in you having to make a contribution to post here.

This will allow us to monitor postings more speedily and take appropriate action against those who seek to destroy our club and our reputation by vindictive attacks on Meat Loaf whose presence here is greatly appreciated by true fans.

Please either become a member or purchase some RVM's to help us pay for the upkeep and increase of the site monitoring or we will be forced to introduce alternative income strategies.

We will pursue the purveyors of vile and inflammatory messaging rigourously and we need financial support to do it.

Please help.

Mike

[Sapphire Lady]

I would like to see this forum open to mlukfc members only. It is after all the mlukfc website.

Make it a "perk" of being in the fan club and this would encourage more people to become members. And that way everyone would be making a financial contribution to the running of the site.

Also, I think it would help to reduce "problem posts" as only genuine fans would be willing to pay to join the fan club and genuine fans are less likely to be making unfair criticisms. I'm not saying that you can't be a genuine ML fan if you're not a member of the fan club - that's obviously ridiculous. But I think the majority of fans who want to participate in this forum would be happy to join the fan club to enable them to do so, if they're not already members.

This could be achieved by mlukfc members applying to Mike for a password to be able to post here.

[CarylB]

Mike Piercy wrote:

We have to resolve the vitriolic PMing and forum posting once and for all.

That I agree with wholeheartedly. There is no excuse for vitriolic posts either privately or publicly. Currently of course there is no need to receive vitriol in one's PM box repeatedly, as one can block any offender.

I'd like Fan Club MEMBERS to let us know what they want on this site, whether they want a Members only area and what they would like to see moved in to it.

Currently this forum is password protected which gives a degree of control ie you can ban that individual, but they can reregister with another email address. To move the forum to a Members Only area would give more control, in that you could presumably terminate the membership of that individual, and even if they were to be prepared to pay membership fees again, you could I assume identify this and refuse membership (few I think would feel strongly enough to set up false identities, bank accounts etc !!)

However this could prevent some people, who for different reasons could not afford to pay membershiop fees, from being part of the forum anymore. As a fanclub member it would not affect me, but I feel for those who cannot perhaps afford full membership. However much you try to cajole people, some have severe financial constraints. You might be able to provide PM facilities to fanclub members only? But that would not protect Meat if he returns to the forum (if that is your primary concern) because he reads the threads.

You could perhaps make a smaller forum access charge to non-members? Something the younger forum members could afford, and which could be paid for by postal order if required. Again, I doubt those who enjoy baiting Meat would be prepared to keep getting banned and re-registering if they had to pay even a modest amount .. (for even in the case of committed and persistent abusers it would mount up :) This seems to be in line with your comment:

We can no longer support the rest financially without change and we'll be discussing how to protect our fan members who fund this site which may result in you having to make a contribution to post here.

If you decide to implement any system where people who pay membership fees to use the forum, whether fanclub or otherwise, I think you would need to be very clear about what is permitted and what is not. Termination of membership during a year which is paid for would require clear unequivocal standards which the members could readily understand and which were consistently applied with probity. I have been told no culture is defined for the forum. Moving into such a new scenario would require just that imo, backed by clear standards, for eg vile and inflammatory is open to wide interpretation. That is helpful whenever implementing any system of monitoring and banning, and is essential when the system would lead to termination of a financial agreement which in effect annually paid membership is, as opposed to a free forum where you can make fairly arbitrary decisions if you wish.

When you say:

We will pursue the purveyors of vile and inflammatory messaging rigourously and we need financial support to do it.

Is this an agreed fanclub policy? As a member I'd be interested to know a little more about what this entails in terms of actions and costs.

[Mike Piercy]

Pleased to see your with me Caryl.

No, wouldn't expect all to become full MLUKFC Members but we could exercise more control through a forum membership fee only paid by non-members and as you say we would have to define more clearly what standards we expect (like Broadcasting standards ....probably a bad choice there at the moment!).

My intention would be that Full MLUKFC Members get all the benefits for all aspects of the website and related membership activities - we could even extend this with more money coming in and keep fees down - it's members who pay for all this and there has to be some contribution from other users. fees rise every year because we are the people who pay for everything - we just breakeven!

Can't accept that a small fee is beyond the reach of most, a lot of £££££ must be spent on phone bills using this site. We need a contribution.
I do understand those who have financial difficulty but they are using facilities you and I pay for. Not expecting a huge fee my view is an absolute maximum of £5.00 per year.

This will help us significantly and improve control over those who seek to undermine by identifying the irresponsible user more clearly.

The time is now right to act.

Mike

[CarylB]

Mike wrote:

Can't accept that a small fee is beyond the reach of most, a lot of £££££ must be spent on phone bills using this site. We need a contribution. I do understand those who have financial difficulty but they are using facilities you and I pay for. Not expecting a huge fee my view is an absolute maximum of £5.00 per year.

And I wouldn't ask you to, just that full membership fees might be beyond the reach of some, and if you're on a fixed fee internet access, or don't pay for your internet use, you can't dip into that to find money for something else :) But a £5 pa fee seems modest enough for any I would have thought.

[Kathy]

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

We have to resolve the vitriolic PMing and forum posting once and for all.

This will be hard to do, since I think sometimes what is posted is niggling and merely unkind, not necessarily vitriolic - but I am all for anything that can be done to prevent Meat's feelings from being hurt. We owe him that and more.

If you go with a members-only forum, maybe there could be a Student Membership so the youngsters could be a full part of everything.

Thanks for your concern and efforts.
-Kathy[/b]

[Puritan]

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

Please either become a member or purchase some RVM's to help us pay for the upkeep and increase of the site monitoring or we will be forced to introduce alternative income strategies.


Mike

What costs are we talking about then? I am probably being naive but I don't see a lot of costs in £ to running this site. Or are you intending to pay people to be monitors? (you say someone has to pay for the increase of the site monitoring!). I accept there is a lot of time spent by volunteers but I didn't think that was the same as £ notes. This is a genuine question not a "smart ass" remark - though I accept it may be a stupid question!

Why not make all contributors to this forum pay an annual fee of £5? After all not all MLUKFC members have interent access so why should they be funding this site? Such members may in many cases actually be the least able to afford to do so!

Puritan
(A fully paid up member of MLUKFC)

[Mike Piercy]

We all have a surprising amount of paperwork, stationery, and postage costs which we use to give info to non-members as a result of posting on this site. That comes out of Members contributions. this is in the hope people will signh up as full members - call it marketing!

We've tried to use a "something for your money" approach by asking people to buy back numbers of RVM - without significant success - some have kindly agreed to help via that route and they do get something in exchange. It seems however that the majority of non-members won't contribute anything. If the voluntary route doesn't work why should we fund everyone else?

As Caryl says £5.00 is a modest fee and I'd be quite prepared to have a reduced student / young persons rate of say £2.50, i think that's a really good idea and fair too.

Mike

[AndyK]

A fiver is indeed a modest fee, in fact you could describe it as a bargain. It might be worth considering giving forum members who pay the fiver the reduction off their membership of the Fan Club should they decide to join after registering and paying here?

How about making it a voluntary minimum of a fiver, that way there's a chance that those in a slightly better fiscal position can sponsor the site by contributing a little more? I've seen this scheme work on a another forum and it certainly eases the load on the running costs.

[Di]

I think this is a great compromise. I live in the United States, and the conversion of Pounds to Dollars would bring my annual membership to $49.80. I can afford it I believe, and have actually not bothered yet to send it on because I had an issue with some of the mandatory questions asked online when you join. Thought about ordering the back issues to help out instead and there are several I am interested in and will do that soon...

Would be more than happy to contribute a separate amount to the unkeep of the forum, been having a lot of fun here recently answering PM's, posting, and such.

Di

[shadow1000001]

Originally Posted by Di

I think this is a great compromise. I live in the United States, and the conversion of Pounds to Dollars would bring my annual membership to $49.80.

Would be more than happy to contribute a separate amount to the unkeep of the forum, been having a lot of fun here recently answering PM's, posting, and such.

Di

I totally agree. Living in Canada, the conversion for me from pounds to dollars is $64.58. I would have no problem contributing a separate amount for upkeep.

Maria

[CarylB]

As Caryl says £5.00 is a modest fee and I'd be quite prepared to have a reduced student / young persons rate of say £2.50, i think that's a really good idea and fair too.

Having seen the amount of beer Sheffield students seem able to afford I'd say students could manage £5 I think at that level the amount could be the same for all.

And actually I would feel taken aback if my membership fee was hiked by a further £5 to have access to the site. This whole issue seems to me to be about two things .. a contribution to the cost of servicing the website with news etc, and a need to make the forum more secure and give greater control to ban people who abuse it, but mainly Meat . The sum is arbitrary in terms of not being too much for people, but being mainly a deterrent to those who would come here for the express purpose of being rude to Meat and/or his fans.

If the membership fee I currently pay contributes towards the cost of servicing the website with news etc I don't see why it needs to increase because I continue to use the website. Few people do not have any internet access at all these days, even if it's not in their home, and to have two rates of membership fee seems to me to be unnecessarily complicated, and less likely to encourage people to take out full membership.

[BadAttitude]

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

We all have a surprising amount of paperwork, stationery, and postage costs which we use to give info to non-members as a result of posting on this site. That comes out of Members contributions. this is in the hope people will signh up as full members - call it marketing!

We've tried to use a "something for your money" approach by asking people to buy back numbers of RVM - without significant success - some have kindly agreed to help via that route and they do get something in exchange. It seems however that the majority of non-members won't contribute anything. If the voluntary route doesn't work why should we fund everyone else?

As Caryl says £5.00 is a modest fee and I'd be quite prepared to have a reduced student / young persons rate of say £2.50, i think that's a really good idea and fair too.

Mike

Hi, Mike
Well I am not a younger person but I am a college student and my daughter is a college student and right now till be get our degree's we live on scholarshis, grants and loans and work part-time to attend college and to live on so what I am trying to say is money is tight. That in it's self is why I could not attend a Meat Loaf concert when he was here in the U.S because there was no money to attend a concert.

I would not mind paying a student's fee but any thing over that and I woud just not have the money even thought I love Meat I need to pay my bills and to feed my daughter first and foremost.

Just thought I would let you know my feelings and will understand if you go to an all members site and I have to bow out since I could not afford the $49.50 that it would cost for me to join. for here in the U.S.

But most important of all do what you have to, to make this a better place for Meat Loaf.

Love & Happiness
~Autumn~

[CarylB]

We wouldn't want to lose you Autumn, but the suggestion is that to use the website you'd be contributing $9 US max .. less if the dollar strengthens

[BadAttitude]

Originally Posted by CarylB

We wouldn't want to lose you Autumn, but the suggestion is that to use the website you'd be contributing $9 US max .. less if the dollar strengthens

CarylB,

Well hopefully you won't lose me and I will be able to stay, and the cost when and if deceided upon with be a small amount that I can afford, however if it is the price of the UK membership which would be about $49.50 for here in the U.S., then I will not be able to stay on the forum as like I said I just do not have that kind of money at this time. We will just have to wait and see.

Thanks, Caryl like I said hopefully I will be able to stay but if not, I will understand.

Take care my friend.
~Autumn~

[Mike Piercy]

To clarify,

Existing/new MLUKFC members would not pay extra to use the forums, that is part of the full membership "perk" if you like.

Non-members using the forum would be asked to make a small contribution towards upkeep so that:

1. members fees are not wholly funding our site/operations
2. we can monitor unacceptable messaging because of registration method
3. a fee therefore tends to weed out much of the malicious posting (see 2)
4. if you are a student (age no barrier) or young person the fee would reflect that.

This has all come about because during the last 3 to 4 months we have had disturbing and vitriolic messages on the forums and via PMs to Meat and others. We cannot sit back and allow the website or its key persons (Meat and the members) to be abused. We are not going to tolerate it.

We have also spent an inordinate amount of time dealing with queries from non-members who have on occasions pretended to be members in order to get meet and greets. This wastes everyone's time since they obviously had no intention of becoming a member and we spend time checking them. We also answer general queries from non-members and do so in the hope that at some time they will join us.

Our alternative ideas allow continued access to the full site via a small contribution. We would have to establish ground rules which if broken would result in removal of access.

We want this exciting forum to continue but there must be greater exercise of responsibility. It's too easy to abuse from the safety of the computer, I doubt many would say the same things face-to-face.

Mike

[Cabbie212]

Mike

I think that is a very fair idea.

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Mike,

This sounds like a good idea. It seems fair to everyone who is genuine about Meat and the forum.

Hope it come to fruition soon. Lets get rid of the nastiness !!!

[original sin]

OK my £ sterling now
To start off with, isn't this actually now Off Topic?
However a lot of brilliant ideas are coming out here, but I think we need a dedicated thread to be effective and not to get lost.
I would fully support a "pay" forum. Just a small thought what about family or group membership? Although I am a mlukfc member my children are not, yet they are registered here.

I am sitting here thinking about shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
I think back to Party In The Park and all the snide remarks and snipes that were made about Meat at the time (and continued) as I and others posted asking people to think about what they were saying and what Meat had given us over the years, I along with others were called obsessive, sycophants, and sad. It's a crying shame that expectations weren't laid down at that time. We might not be in this postion now.
I would not like see a censored site where people cannot speak their minds however I have always found it irritating when people feel it necessary to add all the negative "Buts". So much talk goes on about "freedom of speach" and "respect", I believe that the balance of freedom of speach should be tempered with how that might make the person feel, in this case Meat, who has been left feeling that whatever he does on the stage is just never good enough for some people in some way, because they excerise their freedom of speach.

Sin - watching and waiting with interest

[CarylB]

From my mind to your keyboard Sin ... and how often have we said this.

And when people have posted negative or cutting remarks aimed at Meat or had a pop at him, it's interesting to see how angrily they react when anything critical is said about their actions.

[Mike Piercy]

Any ideas for the members only part of the site?
What would you like to see in there?

(At the risk of being off topic that is)

Here are some ideas:

* members tour photos and reminiscences
* Post - Tour Talk
* Latest News to members first
* Australia/New Zealand Tour info/reports

what else?

Mike

[original sin]

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

Any ideas for the members only part of the site?
What would you like to see in there?
(At the risk of being off topic that is)
Here are some ideas:
* members tour photos and reminiscences
* Post - Tour Talk
* Latest News to members first
* Australia/New Zealand Tour info/reports
what else?
Mike

well definately an Agony Page - I need the work

BTW the Off Topic remark wasn't a dig - I seriously think there is so much good here it is danger of getting lost, or not seen by all.
Hate to suggest a split but could we get something in site feedback which might be better highlighted to get views from all?

[CarylB]

* Post - Tour Talk
* Australia/New Zealand Tour info/reports

Not sure how these would be different to what we currently have in the forum? I'd be in favour of keeping things as easy to find as possible. Much of this occurs now in the forum and members would have access to this.

* Latest News to members first

I'm assuming from this that you see the forum and some other features behind a password link (different for each member?) on the main site. It seems to me that if you're going to post latest news on the site it's as easy to do it on a public as on a password protected page. To hide important news about Meat behind a password seems to me to penalise followers of Meat who would not necessarily see themselves as "fans" or wish to join a fanclub, nor want to join a discussion forum, but are merely searching on the internet for news. Surely the MLUKFC would wish to publicise news of Meat to the widest audience as soon as possible in his interests? And to keep news until it was "stale " before confiding it to the public at large might seem a bit parochial, let alone involve you in a second update on the public page after the club page.

As a group of people who say we want to support Meat in all his ventures, we surely wouldn't want to say to people "We have news of what Meat's doing .. but we won't tell unless you join our club" I'd have said we want any news about forthcoming tours, album or film releases to be positioned prominently for any visitor to see. To use such information as a means of persuading people to join either the forum or the club would seem to me to run counter to our desire to support Meat in all he does.

Having said this, to get an agreement for a pre-sale ticket day for members of both Meat's officially endorsed fanclubs would be an excellent achievement and should be advertised in public, with the links private. That would be a real perk of membership, although not one for forum members who were not club members, as of course would be that oft mentioned and longed for perk .. reserved front seating for fanclub members .. something which other clubs do have .. although it may be a bit late in the day for that one if Meat does hang up his touring trousers.

[ChrissybabezNI]

I think the pay forum is a good idea and if you dont mind me saying, the sooner it is brought into effect, the better.

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Just a few suggestions.

If there were to be a members only area, what about PM's for Meat just in this section, if he agreed. That way hopefully he would not recieve any PM that caused him distress. (This may not sit well with the members who are dedicated to Meat but for whatever reason are not members)

Please comment

Or have an open forum in a members area, or on the open forum, that members/others could put questions on, for Meat to answer for everyone to see.

Possibly members only contests - if feasible

I know most people are great on this site, but hope you all agree that things need to change, in order to get rid of the unpleasantness


I do agree that the majority of people on the forum are genuine and should have a chance to contribute; but in light of what has been happening lately, a nominal charge could be charged. if they are genuine, they probably would not mind this.