Thread name change discussion

Kev · 30 Nov 2006, 18:57

Woohoo Cold War Russia. Thanks for editing me. Is there anything else you'd like to change?

R. · 30 Nov 2006, 19:04

Would you rather see your thread locked?

Mike Piercy · 30 Nov 2006, 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by icwuke

Woohoo Cold War Russia. Thanks for editing me. Is there anything else you'd like to change?

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.

Would you rather see your thread locked?

Since when did we start threatening people?

Kevin has dealt in facts, he's also well placed to offer opinions being at the "coal face" as far as record sales are concerned and he has done an enormous amount on this site to promote the BOOH III album and the singles (singles I couldn't have bought other than online via him given my mobility problems).

We all have different ways of expressing ourselves and that applies to thread titles. Mine would have been different as I've implied previously, so would yours. It doesn't make him wrong.

A little tolerance of a different style / approach would be welcome - he hasn't been abusive or threatening that I'm aware of.

We are in danger of becoming frightened rabbits.

Mike

**allrevvedup** · 30 Nov 2006, 20:13

Begs the question that i asked before, are we meant to be robots here?

Mike Piercy · 30 Nov 2006, 20:15

Exterminate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

L96 · 30 Nov 2006, 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by allrevvedup

Begs the question that i asked before, are we meant to be robots here?

Yes. Unless your opinion on any given topic is "It's the best thing ever", keep quiet. 8 pages of people agreeing with other in 5 words or less is far more interesting.

CarylB · 30 Nov 2006, 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by allrevvedup

Begs the question that i asked before, are we meant to be robots here?

No. But being sensitive to the feelings of the man whose name is on every page here seems appropriate, and is not acting as a robot, but rather with respect and deference to his feelings. The thread title was imo extremely negative, suggesting that this wonderful new album is washed up and on its way out (even if that was not Kevin's intention, and I agree he has worked hard to promote the album and has brought positive sales figures).

I think R is right and the title reflects more accurately a discussion with the potential to be positive. Plus he runs the website and is entitled to make changes if he chooses.

Caryl

Mike Piercy · 30 Nov 2006, 21:34

I don't think anyone who has posted in this thread has wanted anything other than a successful album for Meat.

At the risk of repetition, honest expression of where many UK fans at least feel there is a problem serves to highlight the issue which in their opinion needs rectifying.

This has been a positive thread to those seeking to promote the album not a negative one. It's a good album we just want more people to know it's out there.

As Caryl says R. is the webmaster, but just because he is doesn't always make him or anyone else right all the time.

If R. asked you to stand on your head on the carriageway of the M1 at Sheffield would you do it ? ... now I'm really afraid of the response that will elicit lol.

Mike

Sue K · 30 Nov 2006, 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarylB

No. But being sensitive to the feelings of the man whose name is on every page here seems appropriate, and is not acting as a robot, but rather with respect and deference to his feelings. The thread title was imo extremely negative, suggesting that this wonderful new album is washed up and on its way out (even if that was not Kevin's intention, and I agree he has worked hard to promote the album and has brought positive sales figures).

I think R is right and the title reflects more accurately a discussion with the potential to be positive. Plus he runs the website and is entitled to make changes if he chooses.

Caryl

you know i agree with what you say re: respect Caryl...

as for the original title of the thread... that one was a real negative Meat-eye catcher wasn't it?.. this new one just says it as it is... with no editorializing ... and imo Kev's smartarsed response to R's changing it leads me to believe he was content with the negative aspect of the his original title ...

t...

Deb · 30 Nov 2006, 22:08

Wow I have a ton of things to say on the latter part of this thread, but I guess it would be wise to not say them.

But there is a few things I feel I need to say. Sorry if this offends you icwuke, but you are trying to paint yourself in a very saintly way here. I have no idea what the ins and outs are of your deal with your work. But i'm sure you did alright out of the cds. As in commision or something or at the very least you will now be in the firms good books. Plus not sounding ungreatful or anything but them cds actually cost me more than if I had gone into the shop and bought them. they also didn't arrive till the 20th which meant I had to buy them twice so i could get them signed at the cd signing.

Also please don't forget you also sold dvdrs on ebay of stuff you had downloaded off the fans here and made a huge profit of at least a thousand pound. So saying how much you're doing for everyone here doesn't really sit to well with me, especially when a fair bit of that stuff was mine and stuff that I have shared freely (and also at a cost to myeslf on many occasions)

Just another thing I'd like to add. I really do feel for R and Diane. They really can't win here. Meat tells them he wont visit the site and will not give them things if they dont censor people and on the other hand they get fans calling them how heavy handed they are (and thats putting it mildly)

I'm not a fan of locked threads, or censcoring, infact it annoys the hell out of me, but I do see why they feel they have to. They do this for the sheer love of it and all they get from most angles is critisism.

Finally I agree the title of this thread wasnt good. But I don't really see anything wrong with the thread. It's just as some have said a difference of opinions on things. Life would be very boring without differences and like Mike (I think) said, we all want success for Bat III.

Sorry to go on, but just lately reading stuff over and over and seeing so many agendas all over the place has really got to me. I'm even wondering what the point of all this is.

Deb

R. · 30 Nov 2006, 22:42

Fine. Here we go again ... nice example btw. why I don't want any comments on moderator decisions in public.

A threat? Why should I do that? For your information, i was merely trying to point out that the thread in question was a lock candidate because the combination of the negative thread title, the jerk, dried shit and some other comments is rather explosive mixture. So, rather than posting a simple ibtl (in-before-the-lock) message, I decide to leave the thread untouched and do a slight edit of the title. Right, Stalin strikes again.

Please note: This post should be at the start of this thread, but I can't manage that without messing with the database. To make this perfectly clear, this thread is a split of the former "Bat 3 done with it already?" thread. Although icwuke appears as the thread starter, it was named and started by me.

Now, flame away.

CarylB · 30 Nov 2006, 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

As Caryl says R. is the webmaster, but just because he is doesn't always make him or anyone else right all the time.

If R. asked you to stand on your head on the carriageway of the M1 at Sheffield would you do it ? ... now I'm really afraid of the response that will elicit lol.

Mike

As you know I live in Sheffield I shall assume that question is addressed at least in part to me.

It's a facile question imo and has nothing to do with the point I made. As webmaster R would have no right to ask me to do that.

However as webmaster and presumably the chief moderator, he has every right to make decisions about the site, and as a guest I am expected to abide by them. Actually it's one of the rules as far as I'm aware .. no arguing with moderators' decisions in the forum .. so some of these recent posts are out of order and in direct opposition to the TOS here.

I happen to think he was right. If you don't then I think you should have taken it up with him privately, rather than make comments here in the forum.

I was about to post this when the thread was locked. As this has been left here I'm posting it anyway. But agree with what R has said here, although I see no reason why he should be flamed, any more than anyone else here. There's nothing Stalinesque imo about his decsion to change the thread title, but something suspect about those who proclaim the thread is positive and supportive but want the title to remain so negative.

Caryl

djfierce · 30 Nov 2006, 23:37

i seem to have joined a playgroup

A title change is nothing,get over it
The title sucked and was very premature.
The thread was good and the info was good but it was the title which has now been solved.
Meat has not posted on any other threads containing posts cmmenting on bat 3 failing so why has he here if not the title?
If this site was stalin-like then posts would have been deleted but it was just a poxy title, jeez (who said about toys?)
This has been a positive thread overall with a negative title, plain and simple.

p.s the 'we know you've worked hard and thanks' 'we are not getting at you' 'please dont get upset Kev' comments are just as annoying as the 'well said Meat' comments.
If the album flops then it does,Meat will probably get over it alot quicker than some on here and will scrutinise it less than others on here.

Kev · 30 Nov 2006, 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deb

Wow I have a ton of things to say on the latter part of this thread, but I guess it would be wise to not say them.

But there is a few things I feel I need to say. Sorry if this offends you icwuke, but you are trying to paint yourself in a very saintly way here. I have no idea what the ins and outs are of your deal with your work. But i'm sure you did alright out of the cds. As in commision or something or at the very least you will now be in the firms good books. Plus not sounding ungreatful or anything but them cds actually cost me more than if I had gone into the shop and bought them. they also didn't arrive till the 20th which meant I had to buy them twice so i could get them signed at the cd signing.

Also please don't forget you also sold dvdrs on ebay of stuff you had downloaded off the fans here and made a huge profit of at least a thousand pound. So saying how much you're doing for everyone here doesn't really sit to well with me, especially when a fair bit of that stuff was mine and stuff that I have shared freely (and also at a cost to myeslf on many occasions)

Just another thing I'd like to add. I really do feel for R and Diane. They really can't win here. Meat tells them he wont visit the site and will not give them things if they dont censor people and on the other hand they get fans calling them how heavy handed they are (and thats putting it mildly)

I'm not a fan of locked threads, or censcoring, infact it annoys the hell out of me, but I do see why they feel they have to. They do this for the sheer love of it and all they get from most angles is critisism.

Finally I agree the title of this thread wasnt good. But I don't really see anything wrong with the thread. It's just as some have said a difference of opinions on things. Life would be very boring without differences and like Mike (I think) said, we all want success for Bat III.

Sorry to go on, but just lately reading stuff over and over and seeing so many agendas all over the place has really got to me. I'm even wondering what the point of all this is.

Deb

Thats quite a tiring post.

I'm not quite sure how I'm trying to make myself out as anything, I just simply pointed out for Mr. Loaf to come on here an question if someone is a fan for not kissing his arse and everything around Bat 3 is quite silly. Also that it doesn't matter what you buy, what you don't, which shows you go to, you're not really more of a fan than anyone else. You shouldn't have to kiss the guys arse to not get moaned at.

You're right, I got a free Bat 3 LP for all my work! I don't want a 'bonus' or anything like that. The website isn't even my department. I'm the manager of one of the company stores. I was already in the good books, I've introduced a few new things since starting there, this just helped prove I'm right! If your item was late, then it was nothing at all to do with me. You'd also be hard pressed to find the new single deal cheaper elsewhere. Even HMV with free P&P costs more!

These CDs/DVDs... I've heard a fair bit about them off other people. I remember seeing Carly posting something about them and how people shouldn't buy them. I think your figures are off, it was more like £12,000

I think thats enough for that!

The mods have a job to do, and of course Mr Loaf needs to be kept happy. We need him to come here and give us bits of inside information and gossip.

I thought the title was very fitting, and both the title and I have been proved right, Bat 3 will be lucky if it is still in the top 40 come Sunday, which is was I was getting at in the first place. But anyway...

djfierce · 30 Nov 2006, 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by icwuke

Thats quite a tiring post.

I'm not quite sure how I'm trying to make myself out as anything, I just simply pointed out for Mr. Loaf to come on here an question if someone is a fan for not kissing his arse and everything around Bat 3 is quite silly. Also that it doesn't matter what you buy, what you don't, which shows you go to, you're not really more of a fan than anyone else. You shouldn't have to kiss the guys arse to not get moaned at.

You don't have to make a point of not kissing his arse either. Some of us manage to do neither very well thank you .
I dont think he was saying who is a fan and who isnt just that the thread was created too early(which many people stated long before he posted). Yes you are in the music business but so is he, you have sales figures to go on, he has sales figures and the knowledge of what he's doing about it.

Deb · 30 Nov 2006, 23:50

You may think it's tiring. I dont.

Don't insult my intellegence yet again by making out you know nothing about the ebay stuff.

Apart from this thread you've dropped other comments in a few others in a similar way. One that stands out was a comment along the lines of... I deserve a m&g for all my hard work

You may think it's all about keeping Mr Loaf happy so we get inside info and gossip. But i'm sure that isn't what the mods or many of us feel. I'm sure the mods here do it out of respect for a man they admire and a man that they give up their spare time for tirelessly do this site. And for what. To get comments like your Stalin one back at them.

LucyK! · 01 Dec 2006, 00:04

Deb summed it up perfectly for me - I feel increasingly sorry for R, Diane, AndyK etc who have to deal with this place, as Anji said, it's a playground.

On a public forum of over 2000 members you cannot expect everyone to get along and agree with everything the other says, the world would be a boring place if we did, but the attitude of some people towards those who disagree with them stinks. And I include Meat's posts in that too.

We are extremely fortunate that as a fanclub, the guy in question posts here and willingly shares opinions and information, and I for one am extremely grateful that I'm able to be part of a forum where I can receive direct information from someone I admire and respect so much...but that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he says, and just because he does mean a lot to me I certainly wouldn't dive down the throat of anyone who dares to disagree and "go against" him.

As for "Stalin strikes again" well that's yet another prime example of the childish attitudes on what I thought was an adult-majoriy forum.

I think some people need to take a seriously take a reality check and put some things in perspective before they kick off.

geordieloaf · 01 Dec 2006, 00:10

Ok so Meat was unhappy with the title. It's because of him were all here and if he dosen't like something then fine i will always respect his feeling's.
I have to say i posted on the thread and having looked back there wasn't anything on there that was disrespectful of meat or the album.
The title was harsh it has been changed so what i don't see why it has upset so many people.
I think everyone is entitled to state there opinion as long as it dosen't offend anyone, on this occasion it offended Meat.
At the end of the day Meat popping in and making the odd post makes this site great and wouldn't be the same without that.

Pudding · 01 Dec 2006, 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by geordieloaf

Ok so Meat was unhappy with the title. It's because of him were all here and if he dosen't like something then fine i will always respect his feeling's.

I don't think its so much to do with Meat Loaf not liking something, but more to do with people believeing Meat doesn't like something so they can be liked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarylB

No. But being sensitive to the feelings of the man whose name is on every page here seems appropriate

Aww thanks Caryl, but my name isn't on every page

Pud

**RadioMaster** · 01 Dec 2006, 00:42

Meat Loaf is not God!
He is a great artist, definitely, but nothing more!

Why are we all acting like we´re in 18th century france and he´s Louis XIV?

One of the most important things on such forums IS the arguing and discussiong to develop new opinions and points of view, and that, without childish behaviour, from whoever it comes, members, mods, meat, etc.

Pudding · 01 Dec 2006, 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadioMaster

Meat Loaf is not God!

Whoa! whoa! you heathen, how dare you say such a thing

Pud

Sue K · 01 Dec 2006, 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pudding

Whoa! whoa! you heathen, how dare you say such a thing

Pud

glad to see you've found the right path there Pud !!!

t...

Mick Loaf · 01 Dec 2006, 01:16

I found this site while looking for help after a Meat Loaf gig and I've
had nothing but help from many people here, (just 2 days ago I had
2 members offering help after one of my posts). The people are friendly,
and helpful, and generous, and humourous. Yes, some people don't
get on at times but that can make for some interesting (and fun) threads
but the overall feeling I get from mlukfc is very positive.

That's the main reason I stayed.

One of the others was that Meat visits and posts here. I love that he's
able to be so close and in touch with his fans and I think that, if Meat
finds something OTT (which I thought the title in question was) the mods
SHOULD use their best judgement.
R did this and, as he said, he didn't lock the thread because the content
was an excellent ongoing discussion and debate about BAT III.
So let's continue the quality discussions and give the mods. little to do
except the chance to be moderate.

mszee · 01 Dec 2006, 01:18

I thought Stalin was dead???

CarylB · 01 Dec 2006, 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deb

You may think it's tiring. I dont.

Don't insult my intellegence yet again by making out you know nothing about the ebay stuff.

Apart from this thread you've dropped other comments in a few others in a similar way. One that stands out was a comment along the lines of... I deserve a m&g for all my hard work

You may think it's all about keeping Mr Loaf happy so we get inside info and gossip. But i'm sure that isn't what the mods or many of us feel. I'm sure the mods here do it out of respect for a man they admire and a man that they give up their spare time for tirelessly do this site. And for what. To get comments like your Stalin one back at them.

Agree with all you say, particularly your second para of which we too have experience!

Caryl

30 Nov 2006, 18:57	#1
Kev Just Kev Join Date: 01.06.2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,856	Thread name change discussion Woohoo Cold War Russia. Thanks for editing me. Is there anything else you'd like to change?

30 Nov 2006, 21:34	#8
Mike Piercy cat out of hell Join Date: 20.10.2003 Location: With the black cat where the rubber meets the road Posts: 618	I don't think anyone who has posted in this thread has wanted anything other than a successful album for Meat. At the risk of repetition, honest expression of where many UK fans at least feel there is a problem serves to highlight the issue which in their opinion needs rectifying. This has been a positive thread to those seeking to promote the album not a negative one. It's a good album we just want more people to know it's out there. As Caryl says R. is the webmaster, but just because he is doesn't always make him or anyone else right all the time. If R. asked you to stand on your head on the carriageway of the M1 at Sheffield would you do it ? ... now I'm really afraid of the response that will elicit lol. Mike Last edited by Mike Piercy; 30 Nov 2006 at 21:44.

30 Nov 2006, 19:04	#2
R. You dig. Join Date: 02.04.2002 Location: On the fothermucker Posts: 7,179	Would you rather see your thread locked?

30 Nov 2006, 20:13	#4
allrevvedup "Most things that i worry about, never happen anyway" Join Date: 29.11.2003 Location: Liverpool Posts: 5,351	Begs the question that i asked before, are we meant to be robots here?

30 Nov 2006, 20:15	#5
Mike Piercy cat out of hell Join Date: 20.10.2003 Location: With the black cat where the rubber meets the road Posts: 618	Exterminate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

30 Nov 2006, 22:08	#10
Deb Mega Loafer Join Date: 26.04.2003 Location: Did I say that?... Posts: 4,162	Wow I have a ton of things to say on the latter part of this thread, but I guess it would be wise to not say them. But there is a few things I feel I need to say. Sorry if this offends you icwuke, but you are trying to paint yourself in a very saintly way here. I have no idea what the ins and outs are of your deal with your work. But i'm sure you did alright out of the cds. As in commision or something or at the very least you will now be in the firms good books. Plus not sounding ungreatful or anything but them cds actually cost me more than if I had gone into the shop and bought them. they also didn't arrive till the 20th which meant I had to buy them twice so i could get them signed at the cd signing. Also please don't forget you also sold dvdrs on ebay of stuff you had downloaded off the fans here and made a huge profit of at least a thousand pound. So saying how much you're doing for everyone here doesn't really sit to well with me, especially when a fair bit of that stuff was mine and stuff that I have shared freely (and also at a cost to myeslf on many occasions) Just another thing I'd like to add. I really do feel for R and Diane. They really can't win here. Meat tells them he wont visit the site and will not give them things if they dont censor people and on the other hand they get fans calling them how heavy handed they are (and thats putting it mildly) I'm not a fan of locked threads, or censcoring, infact it annoys the hell out of me, but I do see why they feel they have to. They do this for the sheer love of it and all they get from most angles is critisism. Finally I agree the title of this thread wasnt good. But I don't really see anything wrong with the thread. It's just as some have said a difference of opinions on things. Life would be very boring without differences and like Mike (I think) said, we all want success for Bat III. Sorry to go on, but just lately reading stuff over and over and seeing so many agendas all over the place has really got to me. I'm even wondering what the point of all this is. Deb

30 Nov 2006, 22:42	#11
R. You dig. Join Date: 02.04.2002 Location: On the fothermucker Posts: 7,179	Fine. Here we go again ... nice example btw. why I don't want any comments on moderator decisions in public. A threat? Why should I do that? For your information, i was merely trying to point out that the thread in question was a lock candidate because the combination of the negative thread title, the jerk, dried shit and some other comments is rather explosive mixture. So, rather than posting a simple ibtl (in-before-the-lock) message, I decide to leave the thread untouched and do a slight edit of the title. Right, Stalin strikes again. Please note: This post should be at the start of this thread, but I can't manage that without messing with the database. To make this perfectly clear, this thread is a split of the former "Bat 3 done with it already?" thread. Although icwuke appears as the thread starter, it was named and started by me. Now, flame away.

30 Nov 2006, 23:37	#13
djfierce Mega Loafer Join Date: 15.06.2005 Location: Posts: 3,596	i seem to have joined a playgroup A title change is nothing,get over it The title sucked and was very premature. The thread was good and the info was good but it was the title which has now been solved. Meat has not posted on any other threads containing posts cmmenting on bat 3 failing so why has he here if not the title? If this site was stalin-like then posts would have been deleted but it was just a poxy title, jeez (who said about toys?) This has been a positive thread overall with a negative title, plain and simple. p.s the 'we know you've worked hard and thanks' 'we are not getting at you' 'please dont get upset Kev' comments are just as annoying as the 'well said Meat' comments. If the album flops then it does,Meat will probably get over it alot quicker than some on here and will scrutinise it less than others on here.

30 Nov 2006, 23:50	#16
Deb Mega Loafer Join Date: 26.04.2003 Location: Did I say that?... Posts: 4,162	You may think it's tiring. I dont. Don't insult my intellegence yet again by making out you know nothing about the ebay stuff. Apart from this thread you've dropped other comments in a few others in a similar way. One that stands out was a comment along the lines of... I deserve a m&g for all my hard work You may think it's all about keeping Mr Loaf happy so we get inside info and gossip. But i'm sure that isn't what the mods or many of us feel. I'm sure the mods here do it out of respect for a man they admire and a man that they give up their spare time for tirelessly do this site. And for what. To get comments like your Stalin one back at them.

01 Dec 2006, 00:04	#17
LucyK! The Monster Is Luce Join Date: 14.04.2002 Location: Posts: 7,547	Deb summed it up perfectly for me - I feel increasingly sorry for R, Diane, AndyK etc who have to deal with this place, as Anji said, it's a playground. On a public forum of over 2000 members you cannot expect everyone to get along and agree with everything the other says, the world would be a boring place if we did, but the attitude of some people towards those who disagree with them stinks. And I include Meat's posts in that too. We are extremely fortunate that as a fanclub, the guy in question posts here and willingly shares opinions and information, and I for one am extremely grateful that I'm able to be part of a forum where I can receive direct information from someone I admire and respect so much...but that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he says, and just because he does mean a lot to me I certainly wouldn't dive down the throat of anyone who dares to disagree and "go against" him. As for "Stalin strikes again" well that's yet another prime example of the childish attitudes on what I thought was an adult-majoriy forum. I think some people need to take a seriously take a reality check and put some things in perspective before they kick off.

01 Dec 2006, 00:10	#18
geordieloaf Can't You See My Faded Geordie Jeans Bursting Apart Join Date: 25.10.2006 Location: Newcastle Posts: 1,360	Ok so Meat was unhappy with the title. It's because of him were all here and if he dosen't like something then fine i will always respect his feeling's. I have to say i posted on the thread and having looked back there wasn't anything on there that was disrespectful of meat or the album. The title was harsh it has been changed so what i don't see why it has upset so many people. I think everyone is entitled to state there opinion as long as it dosen't offend anyone, on this occasion it offended Meat. At the end of the day Meat popping in and making the odd post makes this site great and wouldn't be the same without that.

01 Dec 2006, 00:42	#20
RadioMaster The German Join Date: 11.03.2006 Location: some kind of hunting lodge for rich weirdos... Posts: 15,778	Meat Loaf is not God! He is a great artist, definitely, but nothing more! Why are we all acting like we´re in 18th century france and he´s Louis XIV? One of the most important things on such forums IS the arguing and discussiong to develop new opinions and points of view, and that, without childish behaviour, from whoever it comes, members, mods, meat, etc.

01 Dec 2006, 01:16	#23
Mick Loaf Thread Killer Join Date: 10.11.2005 Location: Livingston Posts: 1,140	I found this site while looking for help after a Meat Loaf gig and I've had nothing but help from many people here, (just 2 days ago I had 2 members offering help after one of my posts). The people are friendly, and helpful, and generous, and humourous. Yes, some people don't get on at times but that can make for some interesting (and fun) threads but the overall feeling I get from mlukfc is very positive. That's the main reason I stayed. One of the others was that Meat visits and posts here. I love that he's able to be so close and in touch with his fans and I think that, if Meat finds something OTT (which I thought the title in question was) the mods SHOULD use their best judgement. R did this and, as he said, he didn't lock the thread because the content was an excellent ongoing discussion and debate about BAT III. So let's continue the quality discussions and give the mods. little to do except the chance to be moderate.

01 Dec 2006, 01:18	#24
mszee Mega Loafer Join Date: 29.03.2006 Location: And you think you're down under??? Posts: 26,252	I thought Stalin was dead???