Debate

[greg]

Should all calm down and have a cup of tea

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by R.

Anything else that I feel is off topic to this thread, for example the current state of your ignore list or any other remark of that quality.

Not really off topic. I mentioned it because I realized that it's a useful option that (hopefully) keeps me from getting into silly fights with certain people. There are some forum members (not many ) who repeatedly say things that bother me, and which sometimes tempt me to add fuel to the fire and make me react in a way that I later regret. That's why I actually understand why Meat Loaf often feels offended and gets angry - because I know how easily words can make you angry, regardless of whether the originator of those words intended that or if it was some innocent statement that was just taken the wrong way. What I don't understand is his overuse of cuss words and his tendency to blow things out of proportion and accuse his fans of not liking him.

[Ma.Ra]

Originally Posted by R.

Fact is, I'm asking all the time. And some people simply don't get the message. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you can test us or me how long it takes until explosion.

Any more even borderline trolling in this thread and it's GONE. And that might include a ban for the troll as well. This includes:

• Meat went over the top. He apologised on Facebook, a platform with a way bigger reach than this one. It was mentioned and acknowledged in this thread and you can now either accept this apology or not. Either way, if you're waiting for another apology here, then you're shit out of luck imho. Accept that Facebook apology or not, but move on. Any more posts whining about an apology, see above.
• Coming back after years of absence for a snide remark is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Any more of that will result in permanent absence of the absentee.
• Leave the 97% alone. It has been scrutinised thouroughly. Read the thread.
• Anything else that I feel is off topic to this thread, for example the current state of your ignore list or any other remark of that quality. The forum allows to you to edit your post within 60 minutes. Use the edit function. Btw., that was a hint.

Regarding the middle ground mentioned earlier. I'm looking for that for more than ten (10) years. There is none. Common sense? Missing as well.

I'll give you a hint: Read my recent posts, understand them. Try to answer my question (to Adje) for yourself. And then read and understand Paul Crooks's recent posts. This might give you an idea where Meat and Paul are coming from and how to find that infamous middle ground.

And where exactly? As you know, using facebook as a forum an insult for any structured conversation...
To be 100% honest, I don't care about apologies on facebook when I even don't find them. He insulted most of the fans here, so he should apologies here.

To participate in this hateful election of the US president (and this hate is driven by the Republican Party and Fox News for the last 4 years and the differmation of the term "facts") is Meat's own fault. It is sad to see, that a singer bringing together all kind of people, such as Meat, endorses any of the canditates. I guess 99% of the artists just endorse a canditate because they agree on the surface with the canditate. In this election it is already bad to endorse one even if you don't support them 100%! And then, you as an artist, don't expect any kind of shitstorm?

I am not that much hurt from his 97% statement, but more how blindly he copies the Fox News statements about "facts". The same goes if you just listen to MSNBC. I feel so sorry for you all in the US that satire comedy shows like thedailyshow.com show me more facts than Fox News ever can or how Fox News bends facts, discredits opponents from the other or own party (for example Ron Paul).

This is why I don't want to know anything about the political views of my artists.

[melon]

Ok, for one thing, I noticed in someone's post that they said Meat got angry because people were attacking his choice of endorsing Romney. (sorry, can't remember who, I'm on my phone so not going back, but might have been Paul Richardson)

We've been over this before (like many other things around here) that he was not angry because of people disagreeing with his choice (which is ok for people to do, and was being done, imo & to memory, respectfully) he even came on line and said that was not the reason, it was the voice thread that made him angry, and I can understand why. Imo, that thread was not majorly respectful.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by melon

We've been over this before (like many other things around here) that he was not angry because of people disagreeing with his choice (which is ok for people to do, and was being done, imo & to memory, respectfully) he even came on line and said that was not the reason, it was the voice thread that made him angry, and I can understand why. Imo, that thread was not majorly respectful.

As far as I can understand it was the endorsement thraed that had the quoted words that R. pointed out in them (about the endorsement performance which many disliked etc). The voice thread was a more general thread about people's preferred Meat voice era.
In what way was the latter majorly disrespectful?

[Sarge]

R., this is your forum, so you can do with it whatever you want. You make the rules. Anyway, the fact you or one of the mods deleted my post in which I said this (among other things) amazes me:

Do you know that his post [on Facebook] referred to anything he said on MLUKFC? [...] What I see at the moment is someone who tries to conciliatory, progressive and self-critical on Facebook. That's great, there aren't many people who would do something like that, kudos to him. [...] Anyway, it would be great if he clarified what exactly his current attitude to the fan club is. It would be fantastic and a nice touch if he had a message for us that is equally positive and uniting as the one he posted on Facebook.

I also said that he doesn't have to do that unless he wants to. If it's wrong to express one's hope that the stupid, tiresome, repetitive fighting stops and things go back to "normal", then I'm wrong, I guess. I have the feeling that this will be handled like similar events before, thus things like this will happen again and again and again... This used to be a place for fans to meet, exchange ideas and have fun. It has turned into Meat's punching ball.

I give up. This is gonna be my last post - which will probably be deleted, too. I hope it won't but I guess my hope is in vain.

Maybe Meat (and some others) will regard this as a "success" - another "enemy" gone.

Well, if I was an "enemy", I would have left three years ago and never come back. I wouldn't have wasted time with participating in this discussion. I just wouldn't care about Meat Loaf and this forum. I would have gone away that day in 2009 when Meat called us "saboteurs" in a video on YouTube and started an exhausting war that lasted several days. Since then I've seen him call his own fans names on that many occasions that I've given up on counting them. Some ugly things happened behind the scenes, too. I've been patient and tolerant and always tried to be forgiving anyway - because Meat has also shown that he has a huge heart.

He invited forum members to a promo event at which they could listen to Hang Cool Teddy Bear. He recently posted an awesome, very cordial message regarding two long-time fans' wedding. How many artists would ever do that for their fans? Not many, I guess. But the next time I saw him say something on this forum, he was spitting venom in a way that even put some of his most loyal followers off. How can someone who is that kind be that nasty the next moment?

I don't think that Meat Loaf is a bad person, but I can't take his erratic behavior and rudeness anymore. Instead of adding something unique and informative to this place, his presence now kills interesting discussions and disrupts the community. I don't want to spend my rare spare time with the same daft arguments over and over again and I'm tired of seeing him come to this place not to communicate with us but to control what we say, insult us and tell us how much he dislikes us. As I said a couple of posts back, I don't have an issue with him getting upset but I have an issue with the way in which he gets upset. I don't like many things he said, yet I would never call him "jerk", "evil", tell him to "~~~~ himself" or "go to hell".

So this is time for me to say goodbye once and for all. I returned twice, there won't be third time. I'd like to thank the members of this forum (incl. admins and mods) for the interesting stuff I read on this board and for the fun it had to offer before every other thread descended to mud-wrestling.

Thank you, Meat. You provided brilliant entertainment, I made some great friends. I'll keep fond memories of the concerts I went to, especially Leipzig 1996 and Hamburg 2008. Will I buy another CD or go to another show - no. I'm grateful for the good times, I'll try to forget about the rather disappointing, saddening experiences of the last few years.

Farewell MLUKFC, farewell Meat. I wish you all the best.

[Mr. Happy]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

In what way was the latter majorly disrespectful?

Could someone (who actually read the thread ) please clarify this? It'd help me, at least, understand where everyone is coming from. Because I really don't think that thread, which Meat says was the main provocation for insulting so many people, warranted such a response. Why was it so horrific? All I've read so far is that "it was bad and you shouldn't have said anything!"

Obviously that's an exaggeration, but that's what the criticisms of that thread have really amounted to so far I (and clearly lots of others) don't think it deserves that judgement, but lots more disagree with that. Why was it so disrespectful? No one was bashing anything or anyone, it had a massive disclaimer at the top, and...I don't get it. I really don't. Explain it to me

It saddens me that something that, in my opinion, was as respectful and interesting as that conversation caused Meat to say what he did, which has led to upsetting and driving so many people away. Posts like Sarge's above me shouldn't be happening. I want to believe that it's justified, and that that thread really was the problem, because then we can look at not repeating that sort of stuff and improve everything...but I just don't see it

[lorenzoduke]

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

It saddens me that something that, in my opinion, was as respectful and interesting as that conversation has led to upsetting and driving so many people away.

You know as well as I do that it's Meat's actions and words (or his 'experiment' as he apparently sees it) that have driven people away rather than the content of that thread. The idea of insulting people and calling them names to weed out the unmutuals is, in a word, revolting.

If Meat wants to limit his fanbase to the ones who are willing to listen to their fellow site members being degraded by him and who will then still stick around to kiss his ass anyway, count me out.

Meat ought to thank his lucky stars that this story hasn't been picked up outside of this website.

Meat voluntarily voiced his political opinions, made an endorsement and consequently his fans began discussing those opinions.

We buy Meat's albums and pay to see him in concert. Therefore we have observations on his singing and how it has varied over the years.

Meat's posts in response speak for themselves. Apparently it's fine and dandy for him to tell you to argue with your family until they vote for Romney, but if you have something to say in response to that, he can't hack it without resorting to a bunch of childish shouting and swearing. Stand up for your beliefs and if someone expresses an opposing view or questions on that, swear at them until they leave. Classy, Meat. Thanks for showing me what a backbone's for.

I can see the headline now:

'Veteran rock star slams fans, calls them evil, tells them to go to hell, tells them to go ~~~~ themselves, then says it was all a 'test'.

That's about the size of it, isn't it? I highly doubt many of his wider circle of fans would be impressed by that.

The more I think about this whole thing, the more disgusted I become.

[Mr. Happy]

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke

You know as well as I do that it's Meat's actions and words (or his 'experiment' as he apparently sees it) that have driven people away rather than the content of that thread.

I do indeed, my post wasn't worded quite right. I fixed it

[lorenzoduke]

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

I do indeed, my post wasn't worded quite right. I fixed it

No worries, didn't mean it as a criticism

[Devil's Son]

i liked sarge's post because it is exactly what's on my mind and how i feel.
@R.: ... We ask that this should be done in a respectful manner which should also be afforded to each and every forum member.
i guess we all know where this quote is from. this is how EVERYONE including meat loaf should behave. can he share his thoughts with us? - yes, of course. can he have a different opinion (political and anything else)? - yes, of course. can we debate about it? - yes, of course. can someone/he come to this place an insulting people without any consequences? - no!
if this is a reason to banish me, you'll go ahead.

@meat loaf: i guess it is time to change some things but i can't stand the way you are, now. too blunt? sorry.

to quote sarge: " Thank you, Meat. You provided brilliant entertainment, I made some great friends. I'll keep fond memories of the concerts I went to... Will I buy another CD or go to another show - no. I'm grateful for the good times, I'll try to forget about the rather disappointing, saddening experiences of the last few years.

Farewell MLUKFC, farewell Meat. I wish you all the best"

@my friends: we'll keep in touch

[melon]

Bye!

(too blunt?)

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner

[MarkS]

Originally Posted by melon

Bye!

(too blunt?)

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Forum Runner

Nah, quite appropriate me thinks, just hope all these soap opera, long song goodbyes actually stick this time unlike the 3 day turnaround on the last one

Byesies

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[CarylB]

I'm not sure why people have to keep posting their same view over and over .. Some have said they understand what pushed Meat to lose his temper, however regrettable that was; some find it unforgivable. We know who feels one way and who the other. I don't understand why it needs repeating ..

Rainer's posts on this thread are worth reading imo for insight into what led up to the explosion, as are his very clear instructions on what is not acceptable on the thread.

I'm just wondering how far and for how long some intend to push Rainer's patience

[JennaG]

I've always thought that if people are going to leave then they should just go and not make such a big song and a dance about it but of course that is only my opinion.

Since you're after a response though I'll just say bye then.

[lorenzoduke]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I'm not sure why people have to keep posting their same view over and over .. Some have said they understand what pushed Meat to lose his temper, however regrettable that was; some find it unforgivable. We know who feels one way and who the other. I don't understand why it needs repeating ..

Because some people find elements of the subject at hand worth further thought, and because some people asked questions that deserved a response. Personally I don't think that those kind of posts are the ones in this thread that are most offensive or worthy of criticism.

Don't worry, the way things are going it will be a lot quieter here soon enough.

[TheDoode]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I'm not sure why people have to keep posting their same view over and over ..

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing...

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke

Personally I don't think that those kind of posts are the ones in this thread that are most offensive or worthy of criticism.

Nor do I. However, I really don't think much is served by continuously speculating. Only Meat could perhaps say with accuracy what culminated in him losing his temper. I have a lot of respect for your intellect Michael, and have to believe you can see that the thread he referred to was perhaps more the tip of an iceberg. As I said, Rainer's posts are worthy of consideration by those who haven't considered this.

As Lucy said a good while ago .. he messed up, but who of us hasn't? Personally I think it's time to either accept that and move on, forgiving or not depending on your hilltop; or to make a decision as to whether you can still be a fan or not, and go with that.

Meanwhile, having responded to your perfectly acceptable post, I shall ignore attempts from any others to point-score, flame and provoke. They are obvious however cleverly the coats they wear are stitched

[robgomm]

[Edit]
Offensive content removed.
[/Edit]

[lorenzoduke]

Originally Posted by CarylB

As Lucy said a good while ago .. he messed up, but who of us hasn't?

Personally, at least as far as I'm aware, I've never willfully offended a large group of people - and if I'd caused the level of upset, sadness and hard feeling that Meat has, I'd damn well apologise.

To deliberately set out to upset and insult people could be put down to temper and a lack of self restraint. To leave those people to be upset and to fail to apologise shows genuine cruelty, a lack of compassion and likely leaves those people feeling that was your intent all along.

Agreed with the rest of your post though.

[Nici]

Robgomm: what you just did is really dis respectful (talking about respect on this forum)

[Evil Ernie]

Lol, I love drama on internet forums.

People make it sound like coming to a message board is actually worth a shit.

At best it's a mindless distraction. Get over yourself.

[CarylB]

@ Lorenzoduke Yes, the scale is clearly different, I agree, because we're in different positions. I guess it comes down finally to how forgiving each of us is, but I agree with Rainer .. with all that's been said, and the time that has passed, I honestly think what you seek is unlikely to happen. I also think that the longer angry feelings on the part of people here continue to be expressed (however justified their anger and hurt might be) the less likely it will happen in response soon. Given time, I would hope to see Meat return, perhaps even say something in response .. but while this rages on? I really doubt it. We can make it easier or more hard ..

Caryl

[lorenzoduke]

Originally Posted by Evil Ernie

Lol, I love drama on internet forums.

People make it sound like coming to a message board is actually worth a shit.

At best it's a mindless distraction. Get over yourself.

If conversation, exchange of ideas and opinions has no value to you, then yes, that is truly mindless.

Originally Posted by CarylB

@ Lorenzoduke Yes, the scale is clearly different, I agree, because we're in different positions. I guess it comes down finally to how forgiving each of us is, but I agree with Rainer .. with all that's been said, and the time that has passed, I honestly think what you seek is unlikely to happen. I also think that the longer angry feelings on the part of people here continue to be expressed (however justified their anger and hurt might be) the less likely it will happen in response soon. Given time, I would hope to see Meat return, perhaps even say something in response .. but while this rages on? I really doubt it. We can make it easier or more hard ..

Caryl

If Meat had wanted an apology to be well-taken and to be easy for himself, he would have offered one soon after his initial comments.

If he chooses to apologise I'd like to think it will be because he realises he was out of line and has caused a lot of upset and offense.

I don't think it's the responsibility of the people he offended to make things easier for him. He is, after all, the one who is seemingly content to greatly upset people, tell them to go to hell, tell them to go ~~~~ themselves, and then leave.

Yes, I'd find it hard to walk back into that room too - and I don't see why it shouldn't be either. Apologising always takes character and humility. I don't think anyone is trying to deliberately make it harder, however. In fact, I'd guess that most people have given up on the idea of any kind of apology being made and I'm inclined to feel the same. Those who have been hurt, he has left to be hurt. That's what disappoints me, personally.

[renegadeangel]

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

It wasn't actually 97%, that was an exaggeration - a devious yet genius ploy to find out who was a real fan and who isn't. A scheme...better, a master plan, if you will. If you're offended, you're just a part of the problem!

Remember?

Your kidding right?