Debate

[melon]

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke

Support that's given unconditionally gives people a free-pass on any kind of behaviour and no reason to reconsider ones actions.

Not necessarily. You can still convey that you are upset by something, while supporting someone. Usually though, that is done in the background, not everyone sees it.

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[chairboys]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Unless Meat himself tells us why he hasn't been here, we have no idea why he hasn't visited the forum or posted an apology here.

Doctor: "Meat, I need you to rest and do absolutely nothing for a week following your op. Got it?"

Meat: " Oh Doctor. Thank you very very much. Thank you."

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by LisaT

Well, this whole thing has left me feeling confused! I first became a fan of Meat when I was 17 years old (27 years ago). He has been a big part of my life ever since. I have always loved the man, as well as the music. My Facebook page is more about Meat than it is about anything else. I get a lot of stick from friends and family, who accuse me of being 'obsessed' with the man (which, I hasten to add, I am not!) If anyone ever has a bad word to say about him, I am right back at them in his defense. I am always singing his praises, telling people what a great guy he is. I have bought every CD and DVD. I have been to at least one show on every tour and I have queued for hours at a CD signing.

One thing that I have never done is have a M&G, because I have never been able to justify spending that kind of money for the privilege. Since Meat has informed us that next year will be the last UK tour, I was hoping to finally have my M&G, as it will be the last chance I get (although I still can't really afford it!).

Now I don't know what to do because, like so many others here, I am feeling somewhat disillusioned. After some of the things that Meat has said on here, I find myself questioning if the man who I have adored for the last 27 years is the person who I thought he was.

Of course I understand that he is human, just like everyone else. We are all guilty of losing our temper at times and saying things in the heat of the moment, which we later regret. But it's the fact that Meat has not come back here and apologised that I just cannot understand.

I also appreciate that this has probably been brewing for quite some time. I read most of the posts on here and I see a handful of people who (to me) seem intent on stirring things up and who's posts always seem to highlight the negative. I understand why Meat gets hurt by this. But, these people are in the minority. The majority of the people here are in Meat's corner. His last comments pretty much tarred us all with the same brush and, to me, that was unfair and uncalled for.

I will probably catch stick for this, but really do not care. Years ago pre-internet, I had communication via letters (snail mail) with someone who worked for Meat. Their name appears in the credits of one of his videos. When they lost their job they wrote me a pretty long letter telling me what they termed as the truth. I chalked it up to someone who had lost their job and was upset, although they were very calm and matter-of-fact about it. Telling me this pre-internet was not going to hurt Meat in any way. I say all this to get back to the topic everything said in that letter has a lot more credence based off of many of Meat's posts.

[Caff]

I visit here periodically but post rarely! I always have been and remain a huge Meat fan but, as with so many of you, was disappointed to read what Meat wrote here! I believe there is time to cool down before posting something in anger but that's just me and that's what I do.. too many harsh words are written in the heat of the moment! However for me it's time to forgive and forget and realise that in the scheme of things this is really nothing big! I haven't read every single post because I haven't had time so this may be a simplistic view of what's gone on here but it's my view... not to inflame... not to justify... just to say what's done is done... it's REALLY REALLY REALLY time to move on... or for me at least!

[anotherday]

Originally Posted by Caff

I visit here periodically but post rarely! I always have been and remain a huge Meat fan but, as with so many of you, was disappointed to read what Meat wrote here! I believe there is time to cool down before posting something in anger but that's just me and that's what I do.. too many harsh words are written in the heat of the moment! However for me it's time to forgive and forget and realise that in the scheme of things this is really nothing big! I haven't read every single post because I haven't had time so this may be a simplistic view of what's gone on here but it's my view... not to inflame... not to justify... just to say what's done is done... it's REALLY REALLY REALLY time to move on... or for me at least!

Great post.

[Kathy]

I agree with you, Mel. Unconditional support is just that: support. It doesn't mean you agree with everything they do, and neither does it mean they expect you to! Otherwise how would any of us get along with the people in our lives whom we love, since we are all individuals with our own beliefs and personalities? "Free-pass" - that's just not true; it's assuming the person you support does not think for themselves, but instead waits to see your reaction and bases their future actions on that! I don't think that happens very often, and certainly not here with Meat, LOL! He's his own man :)

Originally Posted by melon

Not necessarily. You can still convey that you are upset by something, while supporting someone. Usually though, that is done in the background, not everyone sees it.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Kathy

I agree with you, Mel. Unconditional support is just that: support. It doesn't mean you agree with everything they do, and neither does it mean they expect you to! Otherwise how would any of us get along with the people in our lives whom we love, since we are all individuals with our own beliefs and personalities? "Free-pass" - that's just not true; it's assuming the person you support does not think for themselves, but instead waits to see your reaction and bases their future actions on that! I don't think that happens very often, and certainly not here with Meat, LOL! He's his own man :)

Yes For me it means it's not conditional on the person you support having to do everything you might hope, want or expect, or meeting standards you set. Nor as you say, does it mean there's an expectation that the other person's actions will be geared to it. And as Mel said, conveying you are upset by something is generally done in the background, not publicly.

Caryl

[Sue K]

I live in Philadelphia PA USA land that I love... Today our football hometeam, the Eagles... lost to Dallas Cowboys... and Meat Loaf is on FB ... "hmmm" ing about it... I take this as a snigger and a slap ... and nearly all I have let in life is my football team... AND football... to enjoy and our team's not doing well... and I need a snigger ??? ... ummm... NO !!! ....

Carry on with whatever y'all are still bashing him about... gawd ...

[melon]

Originally Posted by Kathy

I agree with you, Mel. Unconditional support is just that: support. It doesn't mean you agree with everything they do, and neither does it mean they expect you to! Otherwise how would any of us get along with the people in our lives whom we love, since we are all individuals with our own beliefs and personalities? "Free-pass" - that's just not true; it's assuming the person you support does not think for themselves, but instead waits to see your reaction and bases their future actions on that! I don't think that happens very often, and certainly not here with Meat, LOL! He's his own man :)

Personally I think its these people that we do support unconditionally that often feel he worst about their actions when they do the wrong thing.

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[lorenzoduke]

Originally Posted by Kathy

I agree with you, Mel. Unconditional support is just that: support. It doesn't mean you agree with everything they do, and neither does it mean they expect you to! Otherwise how would any of us get along with the people in our lives whom we love, since we are all individuals with our own beliefs and personalities? "Free-pass" - that's just not true; it's assuming the person you support does not think for themselves, but instead waits to see your reaction and bases their future actions on that! I don't think that happens very often, and certainly not here with Meat, LOL! He's his own man :)

So, to take some completely separate examples, you don't think that the partners, friends and family of an alcoholic/drug addict giving unconditional support would make that person less likely to feel the need to change if they didn't face any consequences for their behaviour?

You don't think that in the cases of abusive relationships, if a partner tolerates their abuse and continues to be supportive, it will continue?

And to bring us back to Earth, you don't think if you continue to offer unconditional support to someone who talks to you/your fellow board members like they're a piece of crap on his shoe, that he'll likely do it again?


'"Free-pass" - that's just not true; it's assuming the person you support does not think for themselves, but instead waits to see your reaction and bases their future actions on that!'

So you think that someone who tells a group of people to go to hell and go ~~~~ themselves doesn't care about what reaction he gets?

[lorenzoduke]

If you remember Meat even basically said he was waiting to see what reaction he would get, so that theory falls down a bit flat.

Unconditional support sounds a lot like blind faith to me. 'Treat me like crap again and again and I'll still smile and tell you how wonderful you are'.

No thanks, that's not for me.

[melon]

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke

If you remember Meat even basically said he was waiting to see what reaction he would get, so that theory falls down a bit flat.

Unconditional support sounds a lot like blind faith to me. 'Treat me like crap again and again and I'll still smile and tell you how wonderful you are'.

No thanks, that's not for me.

I'll tell you now, I am certainly not blind. That's not for you? That's fine. Whatever. Please, do continue with the circles.

It's like apples and oranges those examples....

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[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by lorenzoduke

If you remember Meat even basically said he was waiting to see what reaction he would get, so that theory falls down a bit flat.

Unconditional support sounds a lot like blind faith to me. 'Treat me like crap again and again and I'll still smile and tell you how wonderful you are'.

No thanks, that's not for me.

I think my feelings on Meat are now what they pretty much should be. As a consumer who buys a product because he likes it. Sad to boil it down to this, but it is what it is. However since he has directly told us not to buy his stuff now, I don't even know if that still applies.

[Adje]

My final thoughts on this topic.

More than ever, on this board, we've been able to continue a heated argument/discussion with eachother and Meat Loaf. And boy did we. But did it bring us something new?

For starters we have seen what the majority of this place always knew. There are people who will defend Meat Loaf unconditionately, we have people who will argue Meat loaf unconditionately, we have people that are in the middle. So there nothing much changed. Although I've seen some people move a bit more to the middle and some people who moved a little away from the middle. At least that's been a small change.

Then we have Meat Loaf himself. We all know that Meat can get angry/upset. It isn't the first time he did so. It's a contrast to the Meat Loaf we know from M&G, concerts and TV. That is a caring, suporting man with a big Heart. And to me both representations show the real Meat Loaf.

People who know me personally know that I'm carring and loving but like so many others I can get pretty mad or pissed off. It's a human thing. So denying Meat has two sides also is b*llshit. He has and we've seen it.

Which brings us to this topic. Meat's last outburst. Although I don't mind an outburst by any of us (Meat included) I thought this was exceptional. In the very first post Meat exploded like never before and said things that shocked a huge deal of people over here. Me included.

The subject of this topic consists two things. The endorsement and the endless discussion on Meat's vocal quality. And although a big part of the discussion mentioned politics it seemed to me Meat's outburst was for a larger part on the voice thing. A topic that (imo) wasn't rude but maybe a bit too confronting (especially for Meat Loaf at the time).

Being a fan of someone who makes a living out of singing I don't think it's that odd we discuss such matters. Question is, are we too negative on Meat Loaf's performances? Some of you -who still read my posts- will say YES! Absolutely! and others will disagree. I had a small discussion with R. in this thread and he tried to explain Meat's post by saying we've been too negative for too long (7 years, R. said). From my stand of view I disagree, as I told R.

I think this place has a huge diverse fanbase and I've seen a load of people who are only positive about anything Meat Loaf does. Including his voice. On the other hand I see people who disagre and find that Meat some times performe a lot better than other times. Or think Meat performance was worse than they are used to. And they also have their voices heard.

R. used key words to show how negative some of the people here have been. Then again I can make a same statement with all the loving remarks. Personally I think it's very balanced. So there is a next question.

As this is a fanboard, aren't we obligied to the artist to outshine the positive and keep the negative to a maximum low?

A fair question that will also get different answers and views. But one of which Meat's opinion is very clear. He stated it dozens of times that he doesn't feel the love here that a fanboard should give. Personally I dismissed this by saying that Meat focusses on the negative posts and hardly answers the positive ones. But isn't that the easy way out? Shouldn't this, of any place, be a safe haven for Meat? and is it?

Well I can answer that last question easily. No this isn't a safe haven. There are too many people who care for their honest opinion instead of a suportive opinion. Me included. That doesn't mean that I am right. But it also doesn't mean that I am wrong either, For me it means the boundries are too gray.

If R. wants this to be Meat's safe haven he can change the house rules. It's R.'s place and we are guests but at the moment the house rules allow a fair discussion which can lead to critical remarks towards the artist. Within the rules of MLUKFC the people who have their voices heard in both positive and critical ways, are being allowed to do so. And Meat Loaf knows he can expect two views. Again I'm not saying what is the best solution but according to current house rules this is what to be expected if a fan base is so diverse.

BTW I understand how difficult this must be for R. I don't think he wants to have an addoration board and I guess he just hopes that the fans who come here are more suportive to Meat -the singer, actor and person- as they are on some occasions. R. situation is tough because either way he will lose the charactirzation of this forum. To be honest I think it's impossible to achieve a safe haven if you allow free speech. And the fans here are very vocal so I doubt this board will ease down on Meat Loaf the way some of the people here hope for. It's the bitter reality.

All this said, do I understand Meat Loaf's outbursts? YES. Although, as I stated somewhere in this thopic before, I would come here with a different view and thought as Meat Loaf does. But still I understand his emotions very well. Will it change? Unless R. changes the rules, NO. And we all know in our Hearts it won't.

That brings me close to my conclusion of this very long post: Meat's latest outburst and the apologies.

I think that Meat's words to his fans here are way out of line. I understand anger but this was written in an act of rage. That is how I see it. And Meat managed to hurt some of his loyal fans with those words. Meat crossed a border to a fair amount of people. And we've seen that in some replies by people, including mods, who were absolutely shocked by the hatred in those words.

But I said that these words were likely to be written in an act of rage. And people, any people lose sense of reality during a moment like that. I was more bothered by the excuse Meat Loaf offered first. It was all an act to filter out the real fans from the phoneys. I never bought that story. And many here also didn't.

Of course Meat hasn't been back but wrote a great excuse message on his FB page. It seems to me that this was a well meant excuse and he truely feels bad about the harsh things he said. I believe that excuse and I accept that excuse. And I even think Meat apologized for what he said on here.

Unfortunately Meat never posted his apologie here. I really think it would have meant a lot for some people who were shocked. It's guessing why Meat hasn't done so and I hope he will for at least the M&G and 97% remark. However with the long and honest excuse on FB I can live. So for me the matter is over.

Which results in my view on this topic. People know me to be the first to act in an argument and say my beliefs. I don't back down and I'm not the person to be easily intimidated by others. I stand by what I say.

Well in this topic, even I think all is said. Although I still see good argument, my feeling is the topic is dragging now and we come up with subjects to keep it going. My personal view is that we can leave it as it is. Matters will never be resolved in the way all parties hope and basically some of us here are just waiting if Meat Loaf is going to say something more about it. Deep in ourselves we all know that won't happen. Even if Meat is thinking about making an apologie here, he will do so in a new topic. So for me the debate topic is done. And for once I won't hold it again anyone if this gets locked. Which, coming from me, really says a lot.

In the end I have seen heated, well argumented and less reasonable posts in here. And thanks to the moderators on this board we've seen it for a long time now. I respect that a lot.

So I just want to thank the people who moderated this hot flaming topic. Especially FlyingMouse who, in my opinion, did an incredible job on this thread. People had the oportunity to have their say and the topic (maybe dragging in the end) never got a real chance to derail.

Yest the subject was sensitive and confronting, but it felt honest. And FlyingMouse and co, thank you for giving us all a chance to participate in that. I appreciate the oportunity to speak my mind a lot.

To R. I really hope you find a middle way to make this the board you invisioned. It won't be easy (if not impossible) to do so. But I thank you for giving Meat and us, the other guests a house where we can come together.

I will continue this board outside this topic. We have a new CD a new concert tour and a US release of the current DVD coming out. Meat is having surgery. So there is a lot to talk about folks

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by Adje

My final thoughts on this topic. (...)

Brilliant post

[CarylB]

I think that's a very fair post Adje. To me this stood out:

it seemed to me Meat's outburst was for a larger part on the voice thing. A topic that (imo) wasn't rude but maybe a bit too confronting (especially for Meat Loaf at the time).

To me the disproportional reaction was because of the weight of many things Meat had on his shoulders at the time, from the fallout following his endorsement to the worry about what impact the storm would have on his ability to deliver the last shows of the tour, and the disappointment if they had to be cancelled. I suspect the prospect of the surgery he has to face must have been like a spectre behind his shoulders for some time too. Most of this not down to us, but I think friends understand that. I do.

You said also that we all know that Meat can get angry/upset, and that when he does it's in stark contrast to the man we know from M&G, concerts and TV. Yes, he is a caring, kind, and usually gracious man with a big heart. You said both representations are of the real man. I agree; I have just found the latter has outweighed the former by a huge margin for many, many years. That's why although I don't condone what he posted, I understood something of the cause, didn't take it personally, forgave, and would agree it's time to put it behind us.

Caryl

[melon]

For once, I may have found something to agree with you on Adje...

I'm quite happy for a lock on this too, and leave it at that.

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[Wario]

I think deep down meat knows 1987 - 1993 voice was just sooo good, he may feel comfortable being compared to that and thats what drove him

the guys only human

[lorenzoduke]

Originally Posted by melon

It's like apples and oranges those examples....

I was making a point, as I'm certain you are well aware, that unconditional support isn't always in a person's best interest. That sometimes losing someone's support is a way of realising that the way they have treated someone is unacceptable and has gone too far.

I wasn't comparing what Meat Loaf did to the other things. That was also made clear in my post.

Originally Posted by Wario

the guys only human

His willingness to wear his heart on his sleeve is a big part of what many love/loved about him, I believe. I also believe that had an apology being made, those who have left or had their feelings hurt would have accepted it and this forum wouldn't have lost some great members.

[razorball2002]

Yes human. But can't he stay HUMBLE? I mean, come on!! Not ONE SINGLE negative comment about his voice on the VOICE thread! Just people comparing his voice CHANGES during his career. Go to expectingrain, the Bob Dylan site.OK not a "fan club", but a site dedicated to fans on the internet. Dylan had how many voices during his career? People talk about that. People prefer 60s voice, other 90s voice, some hate 2000s voice, some think it's more like tom waits and prefer it and so on..... It's a conversation topic, a debate about something beautiful, something essential at least to me: music. If ML doesn't like us talking about his voice, if this is such a critical topic for him , ok be it fine, but why come here and insult his fans? Are artists with a capital A supposed to do that? THAT is a question, and I hope it gets people thinking about it. Why did he send me a PM of insults when I said that I thought his voice was lower based from a youtube. OK you can disagree with me, sayin'you can't base your argument from a youtube, the board tape sounds fine and so on. But why attack with insults (jerk, fxxxx off and so on) when the topics are not made to insult the man? Saying that to me, I spent half of my life listening to that guy on a weekly basis, even had a ML Museum at my home when i was a teenager!!
Even on a fan forum I HOPE we can still make some objective, sometimes critical comments, or are we in a Teletubies bad trip here?

Also then why go to interviews and tell the world that people insult other people for free on the internet, and then go on and do the same? I'm not sure MLs attitude combines well with humility. Sad for a 65 year old guy.

[olblueeyes]

Adje, an excellent post.

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[melon]

Where's my smiley? Can a mod please add this? I think its apt and I'm on my phone



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[Monstro]

Smiley mod lol

[melon]

Originally Posted by Monstro

Smiley mod lol

I can't see, did you add the facepalm smiley? That's the one I was after

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[Fire Ball]

razorball, Sorry , " But he can't stay HUMBLE" is not opinion , you are now making up Facts. Because I get angry has nothing to do if I am humble or not.
Everyone who just came off the road with me will tell you so. Every one I come across will tell you so . I can't believe I have to defend this statement , If you were around me for one day and watched what I do and how I deal with everyone I come into contact with you would have never made that statement. I came back to give everyone on this site an apology only to have this thrown in my face. Oh well , it only proves my point..
there are people that come to this site just to be ugly. You are talking out the side of your face . What you have written is a blatant lie. You obviously have know idea who I am or how I think.
------------------------------------YOU NEED TO KEEP READING--------------
Now, I don't know what to say now , except for all here that truly support me and have supported me through the Years I am truly sorry for my outburst. I was having a really bad weekend and I came here because I felt I was coming to a safe place. I was sure that was a safe place . The thread on my Voice pushed me over the edge, Knowing how hard I've worked over the last 5 years , on Pitch , With John on timing, John will come in somedays , Paul on others and Justin as well and listen to the last show we did, to help me make corrections. But a song Like Living on the Outside , the verses have no Time. I lost my Voice in 1980 and again in the end of 1994 not like in "80 ... it, I guess is a sensitive issue for me ( you think) and to see a thread and for everyone to be writing maybe it wasn't negative but that is how it felt at that moment and I couldn't believe a whole thread had been dedicated to the subject. I have a temper but it really doesn't appear that often. (Gary did take my paints) . It did that day and I am sorry , please except my apology. If you find you can't I understand , when I get that angry I go straight for the jugular it is a very ugly side of me that I don't like at all . In the last 45 years I have worked very hard for that side never to appear. I am human and not perfect ,say that twice, To all I am truly SORRY !! On side note I am always HUMBLE !! I KNOW VERY WELL WHY I AM HERE !!
ALWAYS,
MEAT

Originally Posted by razorball2002

Yes human. But can't he stay HUMBLE? I mean, come on!! Not ONE SINGLE negative comment about his voice on the VOICE thread! Just people comparing his voice CHANGES during his career. Go to expectingrain, the Bob Dylan site.OK not a "fan club", but a site dedicated to fans on the internet. Dylan had how many voices during his career? People talk about that. People prefer 60s voice, other 90s voice, some hate 2000s voice, some think it's more like tom waits and prefer it and so on..... It's a conversation topic, a debate about something beautiful, something essential at least to me: music. If ML doesn't like us talking about his voice, if this is such a critical topic for him , ok be it fine, but why come here and insult his fans? Are artists with a capital A supposed to do that? THAT is a question, and I hope it gets people thinking about it. Why did he send me a PM of insults when I said that I thought his voice was lower based from a youtube. OK you can disagree with me, sayin'you can't base your argument from a youtube, the board tape sounds fine and so on. But why attack with insults (jerk, fxxxx off and so on) when the topics are not made to insult the man? Saying that to me, I spent half of my life listening to that guy on a weekly basis, even had a ML Museum at my home when i was a teenager!!
Even on a fan forum I HOPE we can still make some objective, sometimes critical comments, or are we in a Teletubies bad trip here?

Also then why go to interviews and tell the world that people insult other people for free on the internet, and then go on and do the same? I'm not sure MLs attitude combines well with humility. Sad for a 65 year old guy.