The true acid test

[Mike Piercy]

I feel an argument coming on..............

What does the vote say Winston?

Mike

[Winston]

Don't patronise me Mike. I know exactly what the vote says. I asked you a question and you replied 'You feel an arguement coming on'
This thread is not going anywhere near an arguement...
Are you saying you WANT people just to vote and say nothing?? Is that what your saying Mike?

[Deb]

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

...........and all I keep trying to say is that because freedom of speech is so freely used on this forum it has not always been exercised with responsibility.

I recognise I'm from a different era, I don't/can't/won't/shouldn't need to accept the appalling type of comments sometimes made on here. I'm not getting at you Deb but I've got an opinion as well and clearly it's not as liberal as yours, I'm not a moderator so I'll feel free to put my point of view as a fan like the rest do.

Sin's initial posting posed two questions to vote on, at the moment there is an overwhelming view for one of them, that is what the topic is about. it should stay on topic.

Mike

I'm not agreeing that its ok to slag Meat off either, far from It, all i'm trying to say is there is a middle ground. it doesnt have to be one or the other. So in my mind that is staying on topic. or is it really down to tthe fact that we are gonna have to go one way or the other? and by the sounds of it I can see which it will be, Just my 2 cents here, but for the record I dont agree with either.

Also you may not be a mod, but you are privvy to mod dealings, that in itself would surely mean you have to excersice some more restraint than the rest of us.

Deb

[Mike Piercy]

Privy, I'm not!, oh see what you mean..........I have no influence whatsoever on rules, whether you believe that or not it's true, I have extra access to conduct admin. stuff nothing else. Like you I can call for action but it's not my decision honest. In that way I have no more privilege than you do. I used to think I was decisive but now I'm not so sure.

IMO as soon as you say "say what you want" there are those who take a mile rather than a yard. I have favourite concerts and songs as we all do and songs (one actually) I don't like but I hope I express comments on such things in an inoffensive non-threatening way not attacking Meat that's all I'd ask.

Mike

[original sin]

Originally Posted by Winston

FYI Mike...It was Sin who originally brought up old quotes on her post.

I gave examples to highlight my point and explaination, I did not attribute these directly to anyone - You decided to bring direct quotes into this thread.

One one the reasons I pointed out that votes could be made anonymously was to keep this straight and clear.

[Winston]

you brought up the quotes sin....just becuase they weren't properly quoted...they were still quotes from people's posts.

[original sin]

If you cannot see the reasons behind my giving examples in setting up this poll them I'm sorry - I hope that others can understand the intention and purpose of giving examples yes of posts but without finger pointing etc.

Now further to this and aside to the poll I have created to gain opinions, we are sidetracked into Meat's posts, now my opinion is that Meat's style changed with what he was presented with here, which is why I want to find out exactly what we want to see in these forums.

I for one can see how and why Meat's style changed I believe the cause lies here in the forums.

I do not want to see this poll locked or moved because of debate and sugest that if you are one of those who feel that Meat should be banned or warned for his posts you either set up your own thread or use the one already exsisting.

Part of my intention in setting up this poll and finding out want everyone thought was to help me decide how my future here lies

[R.]

Deja vu. Same procedure as every week. I am so sick of it.
Can you folks not get over something and simply move on?

Why do you think that it always has to be black or white?
There are nuances of grey too. You may want to give this a thought.

[Mike Piercy]

15 love

mike

[Winston]

15 love to who mike????.............you and all the other people who are going around with your eyes closed

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Can we please get back on the original topic Sin set up?

[evil nickname]

Originally Posted by original sin

I want to find out exactly what we want to see in these forums.

Okay, then here is what I'd like to see.

First off, I did not vote, for I feel that neither option does apply to what I'd like to see: healthy discussion and/or debate on subjects in any way related to Meat Loaf.
Please note the word "healthy". I think that healthy discussion should allow anyone to post their views, and that such views should be respected by everyone, wether you agree with it or not.
Insulting people (regardless who does it, or where the cause may or may not lie), abusive language (in any sort, from anyone) does not fall in the healthy category in my book.

And one last thing:

Originally Posted by Original Sin

if you are one of those who feel that Meat should be banned or warned for his posts you either set up your own thread or use the one already exsisting.

Isn't that very relevant to your poll?

Are we happy that anyone can express an “opinion” regardless of the adjectives used, without thought or consideration, for Meat and his other fans?

If we should be thoughtful and considerate to Meat and his other fans, should that not also work the other way around? I think it should.

[edit: hitted submit when I aimed for the preview button]

[original sin]

evil nickname thank you for that -

Will just clarify a few of my thoughts as you have raised valid points

Isn't that very relevant to your poll?

I didn't think so - to me that's a seperate debate if and when - I have felt that everything so far has been a game of consequences, cause and effect. If discussion were on the level you have outlined then I don't think that situation would occur - it never did before. I am trying to look to the future.

If we should be thoughtful and considerate to Meat and his other fans, should that not also work the other way around? I think it should.

I would have to agree on this and this is why I think we need to get past this cause and effect stage and actually do something constructive to move on.

[Winston]

Originally Posted by evil nickname

If we should be thoughtful and considerate to Meat and his other fans, should that not also work the other way around? I think it should.

So your agreeing with this Sin?

[evil nickname]

Originally Posted by original sin

I would have to agree on this and this is why I think we need to get past this cause and effect stage and actually do something constructive to move on.

Yes, but to get past the whole cause and effect phase, this issue should be adressed, and I think that has not yet been done.
I can see why you feel that Meat's reaction was provoked / an effect or however you like to call it - but that does not take away that it [Meat's reaction] was against the forum policies. I know very well that those are not up for discussion, but it leaves us with the very akward situation that one member is allowed to insult people, while all others are not.

Finally, I think that discussions like this (when held in a healthy fashion) are very constructive, because they adress some of the issues that are hiding like skeletons in the closet, waiting to storm out.

W.

[R.]

I'd like to see this added in your thoughts:

Post with respect and consideration to others opinions and points of view, and if you see a post that you feel is inflammtory, dis-respectful, insulting and/or out of order, then please refrain from responding publicly as this may only fuel the fires that have raged recently, and allow the moderators a chance to do their job, by all means let one of the relevant people know by PM. Moderators can't be here 24 hours a day, but we check in as often as we can (real world permitting) and recent experiences have proven that one off action by the site staff can stop the flare ups happening.

How about adding a 3rd option to the poll summing up the latest posts?
Carry on, good to see the thread is heading somewhere now ...

[Deb]

Very good idea R.

And I whole heartedly agree that there needs to be another option and not 2 extremes. if people are going to take notice of this poll then it has to cater for all. Cause I for one havent voted in it, because it doesnt cover how i feel. I'd hate to think anyone based a desision on this poll when not everyones going to vote in it.

Deb

[AndyK]

Got to add my two pence in here and agree with R 100%

Let the moderators do their job please (after all it's why we've got these fetching green jackets!), regardless of what you read, and what your own opinion is, take a step back and use some personal judgement, "cause and effect" can be stopped if you exercise some self control and personal restraint.

We'll act and keep the middle ground fair and even and balanced.

AndyK

[heat]

I agree that the first option seems to be a sensible way to move foreward, if we can.

However, I really feel that we have to look at the crux of this problem - such as why this was allowed to get this far in the first place - once we have delt with that then we might be able to proceed.

To me, this seems really really simple. This is a MEAT LOAF FAN CLUB, yet people have been allowed to come on here to post derogatory and hurtful remarks about the man we are all supposedly here to enjoy.

When i first came to these forums, i was astounded to think that Meat actually took the time to come on here himself and post. It seemed obvious that this was a place he enjoyed being. Obviously that's not the case any more. And why's that?? It's because some so - called fans seem to take great delight in posting nasty and hurtful things about him. And if that isn't bad enough, the staff sit back and allow it to happen. And even worse still - some Mods actively participate in it.

Yes, i think Meat has every right to be pissed - i know i bloody well am - especially when told that i hafta keep smiling sweetly whilst swollowing this shit. It's all well and good the Mods saying 'let us do our jobs' - if they would have done them in the first place then we wouldn't be having this discussion now....

[original sin]

Originally Posted by AndyK

Got to add my two pence in here and agree with R 100%
Let the moderators do their job please (after all it's why we've got these fetching green jackets!), regardless of what you read, and what your own opinion is, take a step back and use some personal judgement, "cause and effect" can be stopped if you exercise some self control and personal restraint.
We'll act and keep the middle ground fair and even and balanced.
AndyK

So exactly what is going to change then? What exactly are we going to do then? Are we going to establish what is acceptable here on a Fan Club Forum?
Because unless we do it will be an ever deceasing circle.
I have expressed my concern at the manner of posts both in PM’s and on the board and been told that it is a valid opinion and therefore acceptable.
Yes lets get passed the cause and effect lets move into a future. But what and how?
I’m not sure that changing the voting options will achieve much more – maybe we need to agree on some poll questions and put these to members.
All I know for now is I feel we have lost so much and it has been squandered.
To resolve this something needs to change because unless it does it will remain the same.
I think we need to look at what and who we are first and foremost as individuals and as a group.
Like it or not these forums do bear Meat Loaf’s name I think it is way past time that we need to consider what we have been given and what we want to give

[AndyK]

I'm not saying that "we" (the moderating team) haven't made mistakes in the past, we're only human at the end of the day (except Mousie who's a rodent).

What I'm saying is that if people hadn't responded so vehemently in the first place to the original threads and had raised their concerns with the relelvant Moderators, then maybe just maybe things wouldn't have gone this far. Likewise if the moderators had acted sooner things wouldn't have gone this far.

We can't change the past and having a blame culture does no one any good at all. The suggestion is one to move forward with.

IMO the forum rules and guidelines are pretty clear on all these topics. The suggestion is one for all to consider as a way forward

Think about it, please?

Andy

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

My views on Meat are well known and I'm not prepared to be attacked for them.

Same here Mike, but it seems like not only should I be prepared to be attacked everytime I post my thoughts about Meat Loaf, but I have come to expect it and the people who attack me are applauded for abusing me.

It is nice that some people get off on being mean and vicious individuals. In the end does it really get you anywhere in life to be mean?

*sigh*

I love you all and wish there could be a good community of Meat Loaf fans on the Internet, but am slowly realizing this is just never going to be a reality due to the fact some are stuck in little cliques.

We all need a great deal of self-examination and should hang our heads in shame (myself included) for driving stakes of divide in the overall fandom. I know I tend to stay away from certain places in the community, more because it breaks my heart the way I am treated there than anything else. I have to wonder what Meat Loaf's honest thoughts about the cruelty fans have heaped on other fans. My heart weaps for the state of the Meat Loaf fandom my friends.

Say a prayer....

[Dave]

Originally Posted by R.

Deja vu. Same procedure as every week. I am so sick of it.
Can you folks not get over something and simply move on?

Why do you think that it always has to be black or white?
There are nuances of grey too. You may want to give this a thought.

Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself R.

David

[shadow1000001]

Well said David, thank you.


Maria

[heat]

Originally Posted by David M. Driskell

I have to wonder what Meat Loaf's honest thoughts about the cruelty fans have heaped on other fans.

To be honest, i'm more concered about his thoughts on the cruelty that's been heaped on HIM.

That is basically one of the fundamental problems on these forums. That Meat has been personally attacked and it has been allowed to happen, and to my mind, that's just not on. This is, after all, a MEAT LOAF FAN CLUB forum, and when it is obsereved that a person is allowed to post vicious and hurtfrul remarks about Meat, and get away with it, then something has to be wrong, doesn't it?