Post your thoughts

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Sure I get that but would she ever have been travelling to North Carolina in the first place.

Maybe or maybe not, but does that matter? Can a person not feel one way or another about a law unless it affects them personally?

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Why is the culture not allowed to be different in North Carolina?

This isn't about the culture, it's about the law. North Carolina isn't a sovereign nation.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Andrew, you state that you "can't stand" religion, which is your right; the Mississippi law allows businesses to deny services based on religious grounds. As such, opposition of the law seems in line with your own views (IMO).

Just because I don't like religion doesn't mean to say I would want to see all
Christian owners of B&Bs in Mississippi be forced to burn their bibles and forced to have transgenders run naked through their toilets as punishment. There was a guy in the 1930s who started a quick movement against a religion over here in Europe and blamed its believers for everything wrong in society. That didn't end so well for everyone.

The truth of the matter is transgenderism, religion, laws about toilets and laws in general and their interpretation are immensely complicated. Whether the NC law was written up with real malicious intent I do not know. I think again media tries to paint a skewed picture of that. One will say it is good and the other will say it is the worst thing in the history of the USA. Promoting nuclear family is not wrong either, in fact evolution shows that it helped mankind tremendously. So there are a lot of things covered in the bill, the reaction to it, the supporters and the protests that won't simply change through the abolition of the bill itself I reckon. I can sympathise with the against camp if one is a member of the LGBT community this law perhaps marginalises him/her in specific ways. I can also sympathise with some of the law support camp who say they wouldn't want a man go into the women's toilets when your 10 year old daughter is in there just because he feels like he a woman that day. I know this is an extreme scenario but I have no idea what toilet rape statistics are etc. I'm just saying there is something there that the bill seems to cover so makes sense to me, also the example of a Christian B&B owner perhaps having to put up with (what they would perceive as) abuse just because the law allows a potential transgender festival to take over the hotel for a while doesn't seem 100% right either. You get my drift I hope...

The media (and some on the left) treat this as like the broadcast of the X Factor auditions. It tries to force us to make a quick judgement whether something is absolutely right or absolutely wrong. So on the X Factor they will show all the atrocious singing auditions and the ones who can sing like angels and leave out around 90-95% of the normal, average, decent stuff.
Society is nothing like the X Factor auditions with binary qualities in my opinion. It's an organic, ever changing thing. Having said that the best thing for the USA would be to not introduce any further laws on top of the constitution and bill of rights at all. Who needs a flipping law for carrying an ice cream cone in your back pocket? I guess this would put a lot of people out of a job and that is sad too... Jeez... Changing a contract mid way through a job isn't fair either. As long as the original laws do not discriminate and are not open to abuse the less there are laws the better probably.

The issues (including transgenderism) are complex. Doing people out of their weekend concert travel plans and any associated costs isn't going to fix it. Sure you may conclude it's better than nothing but I'm convinced I would never buy a ticket again for a Bruce show if it happened to the one I was going to (fingers crossed it doesn't). Sickness is very different than a silent protest for a concert cancellation reason.

If Bruce, Bryan, Stevie etc all want to start boycotting their shows for reasons to get a movement going I personally would rather see them do so for the more extreme areas where LGBT people are treated badly.
The NC law (which I agree with you is completely unenforceable) is like a teddy bear with a nasty smell whereas anti LGBT laws in areas such as Saudi Arabia are like self detonating barbed wired monsters. Any change in these areas would probably be better than small token, principled changes over here in the west.

Anyway these are my opinions and everyone else can disagree. But starting to talk about this and being made out for a racist or a bigot (as I was done immediately on another forum) is absolutely mental... Again I think people judge too quickly.

Mostly though I think 90-95% of society mean others no harm and that includes transgenders, those who practice a religion, Bruce & the band, their fans and non fans and even those who were involved in probably setting up this law. Just because the latter see things differently or are possibly afraid or do not know etc doesn't mean they deserve a whole tirade of hate / abuse just like Bruce doesn't (the hateful messages on his FB are absolutely insane, one even wished for the rape of Bruce's wife!). NC even losing out on jobs (PayPal) seems a bit wrong to me but we will see if they overturn the bill I guess because of this pressure.


The first thing I reckon that will come out of this is an optional LGBT law related cancellation insurance charge TicketMaster will probably try to add to ticket sales soon....!

[Julie in the rv mirror]

When I first heard about the "Bathroom Law" on television, my immediate thought was WTF???, followed very quickly by, "Good luck to them trying to enforce that one." And then, I'll admit, I didn't give it much thought, because I didn't know the full implications of the bill. As a result of Bruce cancelling this show, I've read more about it in the last few days than I ever would have otherwise, so I guess the boycott accomplished its purpose in that regard. The more I think about it, it makes me angry. There's still a lot of hatred and bigotry in this country, it's just not out in the open. I agree with Steven- I think it's time to shed some light on it, and hopefully by doing so, try to stop it before it spreads.

(Some further reading: http://wunc.org/post/sifting-through...ill-2#stream/0)

Originally Posted by AndrewG

I can also sympathise with some of the law support camp who say they wouldn't want a man go into the women's toilets when your 10 year old daughter is in there just because he feels like he a woman that day. I know this is an extreme scenario but I have no idea what toilet rape statistics are etc. I'm just saying there is something there that the bill seems to cover so makes sense to me

Right, and there's the rub; they snuck the other civil rights issues in attached to a piece of legislation that makes sense to many people, apparently, a tactic which is not uncommon in legislation. Lawmakers contend it's a matter of "safety", which if you look at it from a logical standpoint is rather ridiculous (not to mention, as a woman, I find somewhat condescending). I have no idea what toilet rape statistics are either, but I'd surmise they are rather low. A sex offender, unfortunately, is going to find ways to commit their crime regardless of what restrictions are placed upon them. Truthfully, I'd be more worried about males who would prey on young boys in the men's room. Just because someone is transgender, that doesn't make them a sex offender.

I would think that most young girls (and likely many adults) would not know a trans woman if they saw one (not to mention ladies' bathrooms have private stalls, so no one is watching the person next to them), but I could see a girl feeling uncomfortable seeing a person in the restroom with the outside appearance of a man. Under the current law, Caitlyn Jenner would not be allowed in the ladies' room, but this person would be:



Now, does that make sense?

As far as changing a birth certificate, that's not as simple as it sounds. In North Carolina, in order to have their birth certificate changed, a transgender person would have to have a doctor certify that they have completed gender reassignment surgery, which not all transgender people do, for various reasons.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

I'm convinced I would never buy a ticket again for a Bruce show if it happened to the one I was going to (fingers crossed it doesn't)

Well, that's certainly your prerogative to feel that way- you wouldn't be alone. And, for your sake, I hope it doesn't happen to you. As it happens, I have a ticket to see Bruce in Michigan this Thursday, and I'm not worried he's going to cancel. If he did by some chance, I'd be very disappointed (I wouldn't be out money- to the contrary, I'd have more in my pocket), though I'd get over it.

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Just because the latter see things differently or are possibly afraid or do not know etc doesn't mean they deserve a whole tirade of hate / abuse just like Bruce doesn't (the hateful messages on his FB are absolutely insane, one even wished for the rape of Bruce's wife!).

Seriously?! That's disgusting. That's why I avoid reading a lot of crap that's out there on the net- the fan boards are bad enough! As I said, lots of hate...

[tonyloaf]

Heading to Brazil !

[AndrewG]

Awesome guitarists I can think of: Hendrix, May, Clapton, Knopfler and then there was Prince. But there is a big difference with Prince. He could also sing well (!) and had one of the largest male vocal ranges of any populair artist ever.
Vocal Range Link

[tonyloaf]

Leaving Portugal heading to Dubai for a week of exams

[Skeleton]

Me and my spouse went to see Dance of the Vampires yesterday. It was amazing. Helsingin kaupungin teatteri's (Helsinki city theather) productions was excellent.

I'm still amazed how good the translation was and the intensity the cast and crew delivered.

[Sebastian.]

Springsteen sign request planning.

[duke knooby]

Carl seems to be having a good time in London

[tonyloaf]

Hello Australia

[duke knooby]

Was there any April fools mischief on the site this year?

[Monstro]

Originally Posted by duke knooby

Was there any April fools mischief on the site this year?

Everyone who visited got a £50 Amazon voucher, looks like you missed out m8

[R.]

Originally Posted by Monstro

Everyone who visited got a £50 Amazon voucher, looks like you missed out m8

That's just cold.

[Sebastian.]

Today I learned that I'm scarily good with a shotgun

[chairboys]

Yummy. A full plate of sausage, bacon, mush, beans, fried egg and tomato.
Just a shame it wasn't much bigger than a saucer.

[tonyloaf]

Just saw MJ in San Fran

[tonyloaf]

Middle East chicken is really not that good

[Sebastian.]

Originally Posted by tonyloaf

Middle East chicken is really not that good

Neither is the "pork".

[tonyloaf]

pork? did someone say pork??

[Sebastian.]

Originally Posted by tonyloaf

pork? did someone say pork??

I hear San Francisco does good pork!

[chairboys]

You Reds!

[Sebastian.]

Boys will be boys, and girls have those eyes, that'll cut you to ribbons sometimes, and all you can do is wait by the moon, and bleed if it's what she says.

[tonyloaf]

On route to Vietnam ! Time to rock this place

[duke knooby]

I'm not sure which is worse, that White Christmas is on the tv in June, or that I've started watching it.

[anotherday]

Originally Posted by duke knooby

I'm not sure which is worse, that White Christmas is on the tv in June, or that I've started watching it.

great movie