The new female singers

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Adje

And believe me (and I should know...) there are quite a few people here who say they never watch a bootleg but downloaded them anyway. So even they see the benefit of it

You know this? Well I'm one who does not fit your statement.

Ultimately it's Meat's choice as a performer, and like it or not, bootlegs are illegal.

[stretch37]

I am 25 years old, and grew up in the "digital" age of music, movies, games, and content. Let me give you a little tidbit. I generally download an artists stuff FIRST, to see if I like it. If I do, I go buy their stuff, and then proceed to buy it for years. THE ILLEGAL THING HELPED FUND THE ARTIST . I would not have seen 6 of Meat's shows, bought every album since CHSIB, etc if I had not downloaded some discography off of LimeWire. Thank you file sharing for helping me discover and support my favorite artist! And just for kicks, I'd like to discuss Free to Play computer games. Developers have realized that users don't want to pay a monthly fee for a game first and then figure out of they like it. So after the first month free that comes with most Massively Multiplayer Online Games (MMO's for anyone unfamiliar with the abbreviation), most players would tend to stop playing because they did not want to shell out a monthly fee. Player base dropped drastically. Developers have gotten smart, and changed with the times. Free To Play games, such as Rift, offer the player ability to try the entire game, and in fact play for free as long as they'd like! If the user likes the game, they will feel enticed to spend money on parts of the game. (Rift is not Pay To Win...like so many F2P games are). Here is a good example of the artists (in this case game artists, designers and programmers) rolling with it. And its making them Billions.

Honestly...So many artists have bootlegs. So many of them have lots of their music torrented. What it says about the artist is that people love them, and want to consume their stuff. The more popular a band, the more bootlegs and illegal downloads will happen. Its a similar case for movies and tv shows, or live dvds. What really frustrates me is that many bands and artists feel angry or threatened by it. The ones who realize what the people want are thrilled that people love their stuff, and they monetize the situation.

-Linkin Park release soundboards after every concert, which are available for purchase off of their website
-Bon Jovi release live streams that viewers can tune into for part of the show, or purchase a pass to watch the entire stream
-Bon Jovi releases soundboards for sale, or live DVD's of the show if somone didn't catch the live stream.
-The Rolling Stones recently released a live DVD of one of their recent shows for sale online. It went up quickly after the show happened.
-There are a plethora of other methods used to monetize a fan's need for more, rather than complaining about it.

torrents, rapidshare downloads, etc are and have been happening for years, and are steadily increasing. The clever ones realize this, and act proactively. Rather than me having to find a bootleg of a Bon Jovi concert, I can download their latest concert online for a nominal fee or watch the live stream. Rather than having to attend a stones concert and pay $4000 to get there and get decent seats and accomodation, I can download the dvd soon after the show for a nominal fee. Rather than....Oh, you get my drift :P

I see no harm in bootlegs, and I am so grateful for the true fans who have spent, I am almost certain, hundreds of hours of their time sifting through downloaded youtubes and fan video and compiling it...Literally scraping together something memorable from bits and pieces around the web, and making it as beautiful as possible, because NOTHING better exists. If it does, it was released 3 years ago, 1 year ago, or happened 1 year ago and was released now. The current generation of fans wants more stuff more often, and the bands who are riding with the tide (even the one's where their average age is 69) are responding to this and making money rather than losing it.

I have no ending for this so I take a small bow.... (George Carlin reference for anybody interested)

[Wario]

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

Can I please ask a question without you getting upset , Why would you want to watch a bad quality bootleg .. I'm sorry I don't understand this ,
Meat

Hunger for new live material

The stuff on my youtube is kind of a testimate to that. People are fasinated with your past and the stuff they can't see

Though I only upload stuff pre 2006 so the current stuff i just think is curiosity for people who can't make shows.

[JennaG]

The subject of bootleg recordings has been discussed numerous times and everytime it is discussed, only one thing is clear and that is that some people love them and others don't. Those that do will carry on looking for those recordings and advocating for them and those that don't like them will continue to respond against them.

Whichever way you feel, you're not going to change the opinions of the other side by goinng over the same points. That's the way life works.

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by JennaG

The subject of bootleg recordings has been discussed numerous times and everytime it is discussed, only one thing is clear and that is that some people love them and others don't. Those that do will carry on looking for those recordings and advocating for them and those that don't like them will continue to respond against them.

Whichever way you feel, you're not going to change the opinions of the other side by goinng over the same points. That's the way life works.

I think, being on a forum full of thoughtful people discussion things, we may be able to further the discussion actually :) But I agree, not by rehashing the same old one-liners. However, at least from what has been written on this thread so far, I see it as a fresh discussion with some new insight. Even Meat has changed up the way he does things...Releasing new studio albums at a faster pace. I think the discussion is definitely exciting, and worth continuing...I like to think of myself as constantly learning and developing my opinions, and despite what I have written, I am not 100% supportive of online downloads...Eg. there is definitely room to discuss pros/cons, etc :P There are some negative things about it, but overall, based on my experience so far with the subject, I tend to see it as something that can be quite positive for anyone in the entertainment industry.....As long as a proactive approach is taken

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by JennaG

Whichever way you feel, you're not going to change the opinions of the other side by goinng over the same points. That's the way life works.

Yes ... and the artist has the final say .. which is fair imo

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Yes ... and the artist has the final say .. which is fair imo

Well the artist definitely has the final say Its his business. I honestly hope Meat is not upset at our discussing the subject, for whatever he chooses to do is neither right nor wrong. Its what worked best at the time, given the circumstances And I am happy with, and support all of those decisions wholeheartedly. What I have, at the same time, is hope and excitement for future...For what's next! One avenue of excitement is what I've mentioned, but If Meat's not down with that, then that is perfectly ok. Bootlegs will likely continue to surface and fans will eat them up, much like you would a new Harry Potter novel if one should surface. So in the end, its all positive vibes I very much doubt that anyone who spends the time to search the net for the elusive Meat Loaf bootleg will judge it the same way they judge a concert :P 99.9% of those who do find the bootleg are just relieved and thrilled to have found it!! I always take into account the quality of the bootleg, and usually blast it in my sound dampening headphones so I can hear Meat's voice better and have it be more awesome (at the expense of my ear drums..)

[Adje]

Originally Posted by Tina

Yes, I saw that too. And she posted it also on her facebookpage at the beginning of August. So there were quite a few people that knew Patti wouldn't come to the UK. Actually quite strange then, that us hardcore fans didn't know till the day Patti wrote it on her facebook two weeks later. Now I'm almost thinking some of us might have known earlier?

When the new girl puts it on facebook and twitter in public, it must have gone like a fire somewhere...

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

That is impossible , I never met the girls till the 12th of Aug . I took a picture with Lyzza after the show in New market and she ask if she could post it I said yes. So a picture with me and either one one of those girls in the beginning of Aug . Is a load of BS. Bottom line .
Meat
Stop with BS please ... That never happened . Come on people !!! They also never met the band until the 14th of Aug.

Maybe you missunderstood Tina?
She only said it that it was messaged on twitter much earlier so I had a look. Lyssa did post on August 3 that she was playing with you in the UK. Tina never mentioned a picture. She only said that the news was out at the beginning of august, August 3 to be exact. You also responded to that account on August 3.

[mickp]

As far as I see it, the NLE is a key part of the Meat Loaf experience and always has been, but I've seen lots of different faces over the years and recognise people move on for lots of reasons. I could go on saying bring back Paul Jacobs and Steve Buslowe etc as they are particular personal favourites from my earlier concert memories, but recognise things have to move on. Some replacements have been better than others but in general the quality is always pretty good. There may have been an eye on the upcoming Vegas shows for the two singers replacing Patti, Lyssa has an established background there, but I think they both look great and from what I have seen (dodgy bootlegs) they did a fine job at Newmarket. I like Wario's Goffs 2.0 analogy if only because i see it as a different direction. As far as the dodgy videos of Newmarket, I thought Meat did a great show on those occasions and thats how I've always viewed it - a show not a note perfect recital of the album. I even liked the 81/82 shows - it was rock and roll after all. As far as 'bootlegs' - iphone concert clips are a fact of life now, artist just have to get use to it The things that interest me are the stuff from earlier years where Meat released little live video. 1978 rockpalast was a start. I'd like to see a remaster and complete 82 wembley show and the 85 bad attitude one then some sort of compilation DVD (like Ramones live 74-96) raiding Meat's vault of pro shot concerts - the 1988 lost boys tour being top of my list. That would keep the bootleggers quiet.

[CarylB]

Agree with all you say Mick .. save one thing. Meat doesn't "have" to get used to anything .. as we have seen I think towards the end of the LaB tour he left bootlegs he felt were of good quality? And he's the only person with the final right to make that decision, and take what action he wants.

[mickp]

You're right he doesn't have to and agree he currently has the right to take what action he wants. I respect his view on that. But my own view is that over time copyright laws will have to change to reflect circumstances they were never drafted in contemplation of. Fundamentally I believe that commercial loss should be protected against (eg unauthorised ripping) but reputational loss (a clip someone doesn't like) is a far more difficult area

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Agree with all you say Mick .. save one thing. Meat doesn't "have" to get used to anything .. as we have seen I think towards the end of the LaB tour he left bootlegs he felt were of good quality? And he's the only person with the final right to make that decision, and take what action he wants.

I don't think Mick was suggesting that that Meat "has to get used to it" in the literal sense - as if to demand something from Meat, etc....However, In the broader sense of things, no matter which business leader/owner is concerned, young or old....Fact is, ignoring a large, substantial change in your chosen industry is foolish. I know several programming languages. C# and Java to name a couple. Both of which are viable languages that I can use to make $$ right now. As with the music industry, technology is ever changing. If a new language came on scene in the next 5 years and became a game changer in the industry, one of two things could happen. a) I decide to focus on what I'm good at, completely shying away from the new thing, and risk losing the ability to take on contracts for a large portion of the market. b) The inevitable flipside...adapt to change, play with the new language. If it's good, and it makes $$, expand and learn and play some more.

If I decided to completely avoid a new type of language, framework, game engine, coding style, business model, etc, and someone eventually told me that I'll have to adapt some day....Sure, there's the possibility that I would be initially offended...Someone told me my way of doing things was essentially wrong :P But that person would be correct IF and ONLY IF I was determined to run a business that stays successfully relevant with the times we live in. If I'm on the brink of retirement, hey, maybe I don't care. But in the end, of course, it is up to the person running the business to decide what works best.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by mickp

You're right he doesn't have to and agree he currently has the right to take what action he wants. I respect his view on that. But my own view is that over time copyright laws will have to change to reflect circumstances they were never drafted in contemplation of. Fundamentally I believe that commercial loss should be protected against (eg unauthorised ripping) but reputational loss (a clip someone doesn't like) is a far more difficult area

Copyright laws may well change over time, but as you say, reputational loss is more difficult to manage. (I'm also forced to wonder whether Bob Jovi et al are hounded and harassed on-line by a deranged tag-team ). Strictly speaking it would also need a change perhaps in the law governing what is permissable in public places too.

Meat asked why anyone would want to watch a poor quality bootleg. I admire a man who takes a pride in the effort he puts into giving the best he can, and can understand why poor quality would be anathema to him.

Stretch, Mick said "artists have to get used to it", I said Meat didn't, he agreed. We worked it out by ourselves I don't find your example close enough to the essence of this, ie Meat exercising his right to remove poor quality bootlegs to which the posters cannot in law claim copyright. That he chooses to remove those which he thinks don't fairly represent his performance doesn't to me seem foolish ... any more than yours would be if you chose not to adopt a new language you felt was not fit for purpose (You work in an industry that failed to warn the systems they designed that when we reached the year 2000 it was not the end of life as we know it, so they shouldn't shut down )

And .. I was very impressed by the two new vocalists, and believe they will prove to be a great asset to the Vegas show Splitting the vocals as they did at the racecourse gigs will make the show interesting in that kind of show I think.

[mickp]

@Stretch37 - that is indeed where I was coming from. Years ago, they used to ban cameras and tape recorders from concerts but these days most people freely enter a concert with a means of recording HD video and stereo audio (ie a phone). Life changes.

From an entirely personal point of view, I ignore the s**t quality phone videos so I'm not even sure why an artist would even bother paying someone to police them On the other hand, decent quality clips of recent concerts, tend to increase / reawaken my interest in an artist therefore making me more likely to purchase product

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Copyright laws may well change over time, but as you say, reputational loss is more difficult to manage. (I'm also forced to wonder whether Bob Jovi et al are hounded and harassed on-line by a deranged tag-team ).

Yeah, I very much doubt they are....What has happened with that tag team on various online video venues is disturbing, akin to cyberbullying IMO. I know there are a TON of linkin park haters out there...Eg "why isn't every album like Hybrid Theory" (their first album) and Chester can't scream/sing anymore, etc...However, the main fan base is equally as adamant about drowning out the haters as we are

As far as managing reputational loss...And yes this is likely a rehash from somewhere on the forum, I think bands who nip bootlegs in the bud by releasing their own material for a nominal fee is a good approach to managing this. It feeds better quality videos into the system, and therefore those tend to be the ones people judge the artist by the most. It also would allow an artist, such as Meat, to have greater control over the video of him that gets distributed around the net Something which, IMO, would be greatly relieving for him.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by stretch37

I think bands who nip bootlegs in the bud by releasing their own material for a nominal fee is a good approach to managing this. It feeds better quality videos into the system, and therefore those tend to be the ones people judge the artist by the most. It also would allow an artist, such as Meat, to have greater control over the video of him that gets distributed around the net Something which, IMO, would be greatly relieving for him.

All he needs is 34 hours in the day

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by CarylB

All he needs is 34 hours in the day

Yeah that would be the tough part in releasing more regular stuff. And if there is no way to do it without him being more over-worked than he already is, then God-almighty, let him not touch it with a ten foot pole.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by JennaG

The subject of bootleg recordings has been discussed numerous times and everytime it is discussed, only one thing is clear and that is that some people love them and others don't. Those that do will carry on looking for those recordings and advocating for them and those that don't like them will continue to respond against them.

Whichever way you feel, you're not going to change the opinions of the other side by goinng over the same points. That's the way life works.

But in this case, Meat asked the question (and I believe he genuinely would like to know) why people would want to listen to them.

As Adje said, there are various reasons, and I think he mentioned most, if not all of them.

Some fans are completists, and just want to collect as many recordings as they can. Myself, I usually only seek out recordings of shows either that I have been to (as a souvenir), or which are remarkable in some way. I mostly collect Springsteen bootlegs, and the fact that his shows are all different is a big factor in that. I mostly collect audio recordings, of which the quality of some can be really pretty exceptional. I listen to them for enjoyment.

I don't typically bother with crappy cell phone videos, but in the case of some rare song or exceptional performance, I'm happy just to be able to see/ hear it. I think most fans are the same, and it's usually only big fans who are going to go through the trouble of recording/uploading/seeking out/downloading boots. There's little to no money to made from them anymore- it's fans sharing with fans for the most part. It's a labor of love, too, considering the work that goes into some of them.

As a matter of principle, I pay for any official releases, and with very few exceptions (e.g. old vinyl), don't pay for bootlegs.

[Tina.K.]

Originally Posted by Adje

Maybe you missunderstood Tina?
She only said it that it was messaged on twitter much earlier so I had a look. Lyssa did post on August 3 that she was playing with you in the UK. Tina never mentioned a picture. She only said that the news was out at the beginning of august, August 3 to be exact. You also responded to that account on August 3.

I already cleared that up Adje. It was on post #30 if you haven't seen it.

Misunderstanding is human

[tonyloaf]

Wow you people write long messages

[Smithie]

Originally Posted by mickp

There may have been an eye on the upcoming Vegas shows for the two singers replacing Patti, Lyssa has an established background there,

Patti has performed in Vegas too in the "We Will Rock You" musical and in Cher's show so she has an established background there too.


When did this thread get so off topic about bootlegs?

Anyway, luck to the new girls.

[Adje]

Originally Posted by Smithie

When did this thread get so off topic about bootlegs?

After Meat posted a question about it

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

Can I please ask a question without you getting upset , Why would you want to watch a bad quality bootleg .. I'm sorry I don't understand this ,
Meat

[loaferman61]

Anybody know the dates of Patti's first and last shows? She had the longest tenure by far even taking into account her first uh, er, "hiatus". I'm trying to figure out how many years she put in.

[Wario]

Her first show was one of these two:
July 1993 (Live B-Side Rehearsal Concert)
22-Aug-93 - Moncton, Canada (Live Concert)

Her Last Show Was:
25-May-13 - Manchester Arena, Manchester, UK

Pretty much exactly 20 years.

[Adje]

Originally Posted by Wario

Pretty much exactly 20 years.

With the exception of 2006-07