24 Minute interview on PBS

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by robgomm

There are a small group of people who do not seem to like Meat Loaf the person, and because of this they end up posting negative things an awful lot of the time that then cause arguments and bad feeling on the board.

This is what i've been trying to say as well....Everyone deserves the right to this community, and nobody should be forced to leave...But there are a group of people on here who seem to disagree with Meat most of the time, or dislike him or his opinions, and that is NOT what a fan club should consist of. Having said that, there are many people who are a great fan of Meat the person and the artist.

Just the very fact that were having this debate shows that this is not a fan club of an artist - we are debating whether its ok to NOT like this person or NOT agree with this person's opinions. Then it begs the question, WHY is this called a fan club of said person?

I don't want anyone to leave. This community is for everyone. But I think i've come to the same conclusion as Meat: Perhaps this community has the wrong artist's name in its title?

Originally Posted by robgomm

I really appreciate you saying we should all try to get along. I'm with you 100% on that. I just can't see it happening while some people are here.

Despite what some critics might say, I also fully agree with this statement. And have all along. If we could all find a way to get along, if somebody had the answer to that question, I would be a happier person knowing we did it.

[Sue K]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Most of the posts on this forum are positive (as you'd expect on a fan forum).
There have been pleas not to leave the forum, posts of love and devotion, some have posted supporting your stance (with giving reasons why) and I think they are the most supportive posts of all.

But to reply to a whole forum that you are not liked because somebody holds an opinion different to your own concerning a freaking prayer on a wall is (and I say this with all the love in the world, even though the "dislikes" are going to go through the roof) as silly and one minded as the people who made such a fuss about taking down a prayer they didn't happen to agree with.

Meat, I love you a lot, but look at the support you have on the forum, and for God's sake stop thinking that just because someone disagrees with a public stance you take means they hate you.

...

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by cowboy

everytime I say anything it's wrong !! Please change to

Well this has already proven to be true on this particular thread...

Its true that Meat usually responds to something negative on here, but its common for a person to respond to things that upset them. I'd say its human nature. Meat only has Meat to stand up for himself on here. When there are an unknown number of people who "dislike him", it immediately puts him on the defensive when there is a negative comment, because he knows he is "disliked" by some. And before I get jumped on, I don't mean disliked in the sense that you disagree with Meat's opinion, I mean people who literally do not like Meat and you can tell by the way they word their posts (IE "I'm not really a fan of the artist"). I've seen that posted on here somewhere. And its ok elsewhere, but its NOT ok for a fan club of said artist.

And I am not one for renaming this place either, I would be very upset if the branding changed because it would ~~~~ the identity of this place over. I don't have all the answers, i don't think any one of us does....But We have not made any progress as of today because we see people telling Meat he's wrong for saying what he did, and we have people being told they "hate" meat when they feel they have a right to their opinion.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Evil Ernie

I will point out that 'In God We Trust' was put on the notes in the 50s as a reaction to the cold war.

And it remains on them

I will also point out that the UK puts great men like Charles Darwin on their money. I'm surprised to have so many people on a UK forum NOT defending secular values.

I have consistently advocated the inclusion of secular values in my comments here.

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

I feel (although I might be wrong) the problem Meat has with so much effort going into the removal of the prayer is not a religious issue, but one that there is a portion of society that really goes out of their way to upset other people.

The prayer was on the wall for 50 years.
Had it hurt anyone in 50 years?
Was it due to hurt anyone in the next 50 years?

So what was the big problem?

It might have brought comfort to some people, so it did a little good in the world, but who the hell was it going to harm?
If there were a lot more things that could do some good but no harm, we'd be living in a better world.

If there was something in the prayer that insighted racial or religeous hatred toward others, I can see the point in wanting it taking down. But a message of reasurrance?

Why couldn't the prayer be ignored by the people who didn't believe in it?

Why is another persons views (in this case, religious beliefs) be such an affront to people with different views? (perhaps they are all forum users )

That's the message I got from Meat frustration, but again, maybe i'm wrong

That's how I saw it too. My approach would be to add to rather than remove. Just 3 words introducing it were Christian, yet the message was to me wholly laudable

Caryl

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by stretch37

its common for a person to respond to things that upset them. I'd say its human nature.

You mean like the people who disagree with what Meat said on the matter?
They read Meat's remarks, they were upset, and have responded.

And for the record, i'm more inclined to Meat's feelings on this issue, but i'm willing to listen to what they have to say.
Isn't how all this started? The lack of mutual respect shown by these people in taking down a banner that had nothing to with them?

Originally Posted by stretch37

Meat only has Meat to stand up for himself on here.

I beg your pardon, but that's BS
If anyone has a large body of support on this forum, it's Meat.
The repeatedly posted fantasy that Meat is all alone on this forum facing down a vast army of nay sayers and bullies who are the majority of the forum users is both ludicrous and deluded.

To continue to insist on the paranoid fantasy that most of the people on this forum are here to bully, berate, and belittle Meat is as untrue insulting and offensive, to both this forum and the fans who use it, as Meats remarks themselves.

Originally Posted by stretch37

When there are an unknown number of people who "dislike him", it immediately puts him on the defensive when there is a negative comment, because he knows he is "disliked" by some.

If he's looking for a 100% approval rate on all his views and opinions, even within his own fan base, he's got a long long wait, because you can't please all of the people all of the time.
But on the whole there is a lot of love for Meat here, and it's been said more than once that sometimes it's only Meat who doesn't recognize that.
If I had Meat's approval rate i'd run for Prime Minister and play Wembley 5 nights a week.

Originally Posted by stretch37

And before I get jumped on, I don't mean disliked in the sense that you disagree with Meat's opinion, I mean people who literally do not like Meat and you can tell by the way they word their posts (IE "I'm not really a fan of the artist"). I've seen that posted on here somewhere. And its ok elsewhere, but its NOT ok for a fan club of said artist.

Have you got a link to that, cause I would really like to see that for my own eyes.
Anybody who visits a forum of an artist they are not a fan of, and keeps visiting and posting, must be a bit of an odd ball

Originally Posted by stretch37

And I am not one for renaming this place either, I would be very upset if the branding changed because it would ~~~~ the identity of this place over.

Don't worry, there are no plans to rename this place.

Originally Posted by stretch37

I don't have all the answers, i don't think any one of us does....But We have not made any progress as of today because we see people telling Meat he's wrong for saying what he did,

Agreed.
They should say "I disagree" rather than "you're wrong".
With opinion there is no such thing as a fact.

There are laws, but as with so much with the legal system, just because something is correct doesn't also mean it's right.

Originally Posted by stretch37

and we have people being told they "hate" meat when they feel they have a right to their opinion.

People have said they hate Meat on this forum?
Links please.

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Evil Ernie

I will point out that 'In God We Trust' was put on the notes in the 50s as a reaction to the cold war.

And yet the bomb never fell.

Coincidence?

Sorry, was just a chain I couldn't resist pulling

[Sarge]

And it starts all over again...

Originally Posted by stretch37

When there are an unknown number of people who "dislike him", it immediately puts him on the defensive when there is a negative comment, because he knows he is "disliked" by some.

How can the number be "unknown"? If you claim that there are people who allegedly dislike Meat Loaf, that statement must be based on things that have been said on this forum somehow, so it should be pretty easy to come up with a number. All I see are shallow references to a group of people that is allegedly hostile towards Meat Loaf. That rather appears like scapegoating to me than addressing an actual problem. In fact these allegations devalue the large number of positive posts and are unfair to the people who submitted those posts. I agree with Adje. He pays way too much attention to negativity and wrongfully considers disagreement or criticism as an attack on him as a person.

Meat Loaf is 60+ years old. He has worked in one of the toughest businesses in the world for several decades. He expresses his opinion in public. He openly disagrees with certain things himself. He really should have a thicker skin and shouldn't have an issue with people discussing his statements and disagreeing with him sometimes. Just because I buy someone's records I don't have to share their beliefs. If that was the case, I'd be pretty confused by now as the artists I like have very different ideas and points of view.

If you want to be liked do you think it's a good idea to accuse your fans (customers) of not liking you again and again? Even the most faithful fan will eventually get tired of that.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

I beg your pardon ...
If anyone has a large body of support on this forum, it's Meat.

Agreed. Meat's the best source to explain what he means, what his thinking is, his reasons and his argument. But to suggest he has no-one to stand up for him but himself on here is simply incorrect. He has huge support here. It's just he tends to feel compelled to respond to criticism, or being told he's wrong, which is I agree how most of us react. I thought he argued his case well, then let previous experiences grab his feelings. And I do understand that too

Caryl

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by CarylB

But to suggest he has no-one to stand up for him but himself on here is simply incorrect.
Caryl

I worded that badly.

By his own actions he seems to feel that he needs to be on the defensive when he comes here. That leads me to believe that he feels he is the only one who can truly defend his position.

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

The repeatedly posted fantasy that Meat is all alone on this forum facing down a vast army of nay sayers and bullies who are the majority of the forum users is both ludicrous and deluded.

Well its a good thing I don't think that. And I don't think i've ever heard someone on here say it quite like that. There are a few bullies on here that ruin a lot of good conversation where the majority of the people are not bullies.

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by CarylB

It's just he tends to feel compelled to respond to criticism, or being told he's wrong, which is I agree how most of us react. I thought he argued his case well, then let previous experiences grab his feelings. And I do understand that too

Caryl

It's a human trait, but he seems unable to seperate disagreement on an issue with disrespect and dislike, and then "taring everyone with the same brush".

So from our point of view we have a forum full of supportive and enthusiatic fans, of whome a couple may disagree with him at one time or other.

From Meat's it's a bunch of whinning ~~~~~~~s who don't like him.

And posts like Stretch's, agreeing with and supporting the notion that Meat is bullied and disliked, are not helping Meat see things from our side of the reality wall.
How that's supposed to make Meat feel better and more welcome, I have no idea

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by stretch37

I worded that badly.

By his own actions he seems to feel that he needs to be on the defensive when he comes here. That leads me to believe that he feels he is the only one who can truly defend his position.

He really doesn't need to feel that way.

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

It's a human trait, but he seems unable to seperate disagreement on an issue with disrespect and dislike, and then "taring everyone with the same brush".

So from our point of view we have a forum full of supportive and enthusiatic fans, of whome a couple may disagree with him at one time or other.

From Meat's it's a bunch of whinning ~~~~~~~s who don't like him.

And posts like Stretch's, agreeing with and supporting the notion that Meat is bullied and disliked, are not helping Meat see things from our side of the reality wall.
How that's supposed to make Meat feel better and more welcome, I have no idea

I'm sure Meat doesn't view everyone as the same here nor should he. He just gets emotional and lashes out which is understandable given all he's been through and put up with. Certainly Paul has come out and said there are a lot of good people here and I'm sure Meat knows this also. He just wears his heart on his sleeve.

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by Sarge

He pays way too much attention to negativity and wrongfully considers disagreement or criticism as an attack on him as a person.

Originally Posted by Sarge

He really should have a thicker skin and shouldn't have an issue with people discussing his statements and disagreeing with him sometimes.

Originally Posted by Sarge

Just because I buy someone's records I don't have to share their beliefs. If that was the case, I'd be pretty confused by now as the artists I like have very different ideas and points of view.

Originally Posted by Sarge

If you want to be liked do you think it's a good idea to accuse your fans (customers) of not liking you again and again? Even the most faithful fan will eventually get tired of that.

I don't think Meat thinks he deserves to be told what he should and should not do on these forums. I think that after 40+ years in the music industry, he'd like to have a very different conversation with his fans.

The world should implies you did something wrong. And Meat is very sensitive to that accusation since he is his hardest critic.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Sarge

And it starts all over again...

And unnecessarily in my view. Meat let past experience trigger his feelings. I can accept that, assure him he is not disliked but valued tremendously by many of us, and in his heart he knows that I think.

I do understand HOW he sees criticism as an attack, even though that is I think generally not the intent. It's always better imo to dodge bullets than try and catch them in your teeth and spit them back, but the latter is a common human frailty

So assure him he IS valued by many, because that's plain to see on this forum, rather than start up the argument again that there are those who dislike him, implying somehow they're out to get him etc. In my view, on reflection, he'll acknowledge that he has huge support here, huge affection, and a lot of respect for his work and for him as a man.

He doesn't have "a thick skin". He wears his heart on his sleeve. He feels things. That's part of what makes him who and what he is. To me it's part of what makes him and his performances so special. I just accept that. He's very human I think he knows though that he is very loved as well.

And I agree, that to hold a different view doesn't need to stop you liking someone. Nor I guess do you have to like a performer as a person to enjoy his performance, although to me it enhances the experience hugely

Caryl

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by stretch37

I worded that badly.

By his own actions he seems to feel that he needs to be on the defensive when he comes here. That leads me to believe that he feels he is the only one who can truly defend his position.

When he comes to the forum and says "nobody likes me", and you say "no they don't, see just how much you are disliked", it's not going to make him feel the love .

Originally Posted by stretch37

Well its a good thing I don't think that. And I don't think i've ever heard someone on here say it quite like that. There are a few bullies on here that ruin a lot of good conversation where the majority of the people are not bullies.

It's not often the minority bully the majority, so............

Originally Posted by stretch37

....i get bullied...so does my idol...

bullying must be rife on the forum.

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by robgomm

I'm sure Meat doesn't view everyone as the same here nor should he. He just gets emotional and lashes out which is understandable given all he's been through and put up with. Certainly Paul has come out and said there are a lot of good people here and I'm sure Meat knows this also. He just wears his heart on his sleeve.

When Meat says that the members of mlukfc hate him, that we are a hate club rather than a fan club, that insults and upsets me.
Both as a member and a mod.

[Evil Ernie]

Originally Posted by robgomm

I'm sure Meat doesn't view everyone as the same here nor should he. He just gets emotional and lashes out which is understandable given all he's been through and put up with. Certainly Paul has come out and said there are a lot of good people here and I'm sure Meat knows this also. He just wears his heart on his sleeve.

It's of my opinion that because of his vast life experience he should have more tact than getting mad on the internet. It's just not worth it.

[Evil Ernie]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

It's not often the minority bully the majority, so............

That can actually relate to the banner issue itself.

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Evil Ernie

It's of my opinion that because of his vast life experience he should have more tact than getting mad on the internet. It's just not worth it.

We all need more tact at times when we disagree.

I just think he needs to not take disagreememnt of opinion so damn personally.

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

It's a human trait, but he seems unable to seperate disagreement on an issue with disrespect and dislike, and then "taring everyone with the same brush".

Ok. This I agree with. And it sucks when you feel you've had that happen to you when you were being a supportive fan.

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

So from our point of view we have a forum full of supportive and enthusiatic fans, of whome a couple may disagree with him at one time or other.

I don't think that is everyone's point of view, but it seems to be the mods.

Rainer puts his sweat and blood into this site, and he's a great man. The mods are quite fair and also do a great job.

This forum is full of supportive and enthusiastic fans who may disagree or agree with Meat at times.

This forum also has a handful of fans who fruitlessly and without thought say things that upset Meat Loaf or other fans seemingly to just get a rise out of them. These people upset the numerous good fans and commonly dominate discussions and spread negative energy

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

From Meat's it's a bunch of whinning ~~~~~~~s who don't like him.

Has meat ever said that about all of us? I'd like to hear him say that, I don't think that is his opinion. I think that he sees a few comments that are upsetting and is surprised that they even exist on his fan club.

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

And posts like Stretch's, agreeing with and supporting the notion that Meat is bullied and disliked, are not helping Meat see things from our side of the reality wall.
How that's supposed to make Meat feel better and more welcome, I have no idea

I never once agreed and supported the notion that Meat is bullied and disliked by all his fans on here. EVER. What I said is that there are a few bullies that ruin it for everyone, and having a free open forum seems to encourage people to say things to Meat that they would not say to him over at a pub over a pint! Please Don't make my posts out to be the downfall of this discussion.

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

And posts like Stretch's, agreeing with and supporting the notion that Meat is bullied and disliked, are not helping Meat see things from our side of the reality wall.
How that's supposed to make Meat feel better and more welcome, I have no idea

I think Meat is capable of seeing your side of things as well as his own.

Even (surprise!) I am capable of seeing that side. In the "how to fix things" thread it really became apparent that the mods feel that Meat is just being a complainer seeing things in tunnel vision, when really this is a great place full of great people and he IGNORES that fact blatantly to focus on a few negatives (such as taking personal offense to someone who disagrees with him)

There is also the point I am conveying, which is NOT to say it is ok for Meat to tell us we are all bullies. That, Flying Mouse, is not ~~~~ing ok. That would be Meat bullying his fanbase, saying we are all horrible, disrespectful fans spreading negative energy when we all know that we are NOT THAT!

This is where the confusion arises. I do not support the notion that you can label everyone here with an all encompassing label of people who dislike Meat Loaf. That is rude, crude, and indeed focuses way to ~~~~ing much on negativity.

So, with that out of the way, my point, and the point of many others on here still stands: Most of us are supportive, enthusiastic fans, yet there are some comments said here that would not be said to him over a pint, or at a meet and greet, and that most people wouldn't have the balls to say to their favorite artist in person, but feel they have the right to say it while hiding behind a computer.

This is a complex situation that is probably not gonna be fixed any time soon. But Don't tell me that I can't see the different sides to the argument. Just because I'm arguing on Meat's points does NOT mean I do not understand the full extent of the situation.

Matt

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Evil Ernie

That can actually relate to the banner issue itself.

If the banner was used to bash people over the head (physically or metophorically) i'd say you had a point.

As it was, it was on a wall, and doing no harm to anyone.
Not physically, not spiritually.
It wasn't mounted on a flag pole and burried in somebodys belly, it wasn't quoted in hate speeches against "the non believer" or other races or religions (for some reason I have the image of Malachi from Children Of The Corn in my head shouting "OUTLANDER" ).


It was removed because somebody could not abide something on a wall of a public building that they didn't agree with.

Was it's message so terrible such effort had to be expended to make sure it was taken down?
Was it so really offensive and untollerable?

As I posted above in reply to Meat, you can't please all the people all of the time, and if every plaque, statue, building and arch requires a 100% approval rate to be built, we're in for a hell of a wait before any of the above are put up again.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

And posts ... agreeing with and supporting the notion that Meat is bullied and disliked, are not helping Meat see things from our side of the reality wall.

I agree. To be perfectly honest some years ago I think Meat was singled out quite a bit to be poked and prodded, but after the last great debate I think that has changed. I think the moderating team work well to keep that change in place. I also understand Meat probably remembers previous times, and that may not be easy to get past at times. I accept that. And I believe he really knows he is very loved and supported here, and suggestions of bullying are just inflammatory and not in my view supported.

Caryl

[evil nickname]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

If the banner was used to bash people over the head (physically or metophorically) i'd say you had a point.

As it was, it was on a wall, and doing no harm to anyone.
Not physically, not spiritually.
It wasn't mounted on a flag pole and burried in somebodys belly, it wasn't quoted in hate speeches against "the non believer" or other races or religions (for some reason I have the image of Malachi from Children Of The Corn in my head shouting "OUTLANDER" ).


It was removed because somebody could not abide something on a wall of a public building that they didn't agree with.

Was it's message so terrible such effort had to be expended to make sure it was taken down?
Was it so really offensive and untollerable?

You know what. I've had enough of this, and I give up. I keep discussing this issue because it's something I care about, but I guess I have to agree with Meat when he said that "all people want to do is assume and not really read ,study, and understand."

To quote the court's decision:

Since the lawsuit was filed, Plaintiff [Jessica Ahlquist] has had several occasions to speak in public about her views and experiences. At her deposition, Plaintiff described herself as an activist working toward the removal of religious references from government. She also testified that, when she first saw the Prayer Mural, it made her feel "excluded, ostracized and devalued."

Interviewed on a local radio show, Plaintiff confessed that she didn't like the Catholic Church, which she described as hypocritical. When asked about the Prayer, she said that the Prayer was not offensive and that its message was a positive one. She continued, "Yeah, I'm not offended by it, but you can't — can't violate the Constitution." When asked about this statement during her deposition, Plaintiff explained that she was trying to demonstrate a detached, "grown-up" attitude about the dispute, particularly in light of the very personal harassment that she had experienced after publicly expressing her views.

I'm done with the prayer banner discussion, and the sideshow discussion that we've all seen before. Have at it.

[Evil Ernie]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

If the banner was used to bash people over the head (physically or metophorically) i'd say you had a point.

As it was, it was on a wall, and doing no harm to anyone.
Not physically, not spiritually.
It wasn't mounted on a flag pole and burried in somebodys belly, it wasn't quoted in hate speeches against "the non believer" or other races or religions (for some reason I have the image of Malachi from Children Of The Corn in my head shouting "OUTLANDER" ).


It was removed because somebody could not abide something on a wall of a public building that they didn't agree with.

Was it's message so terrible such effort had to be expended to make sure it was taken down?
Was it so really offensive and untollerable?

As I posted above in reply to Meat, you can't please all the people all of the time, and if every plaque, statue, building and arch requires a 100% approval rate to be built, we're in for a hell of a wait before any of the above are put up again.

It's not about the banner itself, it's about the larger issue at hand.

Getting that banner taken down is a small victory against the Christian Right in the United States. It's not just Jessica that disagreed with it, it was many people. She was just the face of it. She was one of the only people BRAVE enough to say something. Most people in the US who feel the same way don't have the guts to say anything due to possible loss of employment, family and friends. There's a reason why you have to have organizations such as 'Recovering From Religion.' http://recoveringfromreligion.org/

To be clear I don't hate anyone who is religious, but I hate when it's shoved your face and especially when it's endorsed by a SECULAR government.

There are many other larger battles at play in the US:

- In God We Trust On The Money
- Mention Of God In The Pledge Of Allegiance
- Use of religious imagery in Government Buildings
- Hate Groups like 'American Family Association'
- Teaching of Creationism in Science Classrooms
- Accepting Religious exclsuion when it comes to elections

It relates to the banner issue itself because Christians call stuff like speaking out against religion, The Reason Rally and other things as 'persecution' and 'bullying'.

It is not. It's just not getting their way for once.

Some people would say "What's the big deal?". And I would agree. Why can't you just be a secular country? One that doesn't seek to exclude anyone?