How to fix things ...

[stretch37]

I agree that it would suck to try to reign in people's opinions or make everything politically correct or "positive".

Having said that. We have a choice to make. We risk losing Meat, or we make a change. I think he's finally fed up enough to choose to leave, but is patient (and forgiving) enough to wait and see if Paul can help motivate a more positive mood around here.

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by stretch37

I agree that it would suck to try to reign in people's opinions or make everything politically correct or "positive".

Having said that. We have a choice to make. We risk losing Meat, or we make a change. I think he's finally fed up enough to choose to leave, but is patient (and forgiving) enough to wait and see if Paul can help motivate a more positive mood around here.

Again, it's not just about Meat, it's about everyone. I actually think this thread is finished with now.

Having read through all of the posts it is clear that moving forward virtually everyone agrees that the thing to do is post with more care and tact and respect, and not to post things the you think will stir up bad feeling and arguments with everyone. Posting something such as 'quantity over quality?' is undoubtedly a post designed to stir up trouble and cause arguments in my opinion.

Perhaps the mods could lock this thread and make a new thread called in conclusion or something as virtually everyone agrees on the way forward? Perhaps it could just be a statement that they come up with among themselves so that we know where we stand and how to move on?

[CarylB]

I'm not offended by your post Andrew, even though I don't agree with all of it. I think it rather sad if tact, considering others' feelings, posting (as Paul has suggested) as if you are actually talking to the person face to face with a simple level of friendly respect is a eutopian ideal. Just as I know of fan forums which do operate with respect and are positive, and have stood the test of time.

Nor do I agree with those who seem to have suggested that negativity is rife on this forum. Most fans are positive, but something carelessly posted without thought will stand out. Mouse commented on the recent comments that upset Meat. Perhaps it wasn't so much the "honest opinion", but the fact that the person holding it wouldn't let it go when others either disagreed, or said it didn't worry them, so it became a bigger issue and more noticeable. The quantity over quality comment that irked Paul, would have irked anyone who puts their heart and soul into their work in my view. Comments that suggest those who are positive, and who don't post criticism (perhaps because like me they don't feel qualified to criticise for eg the way something is recorded, the small sounds that may be left there or not .. or perhaps because, again like me, they have never been to a show that didn't have more to celebrate than to complain about) are obsessed, demented, ass-kissing etc (let's be fair, we've all seen these assertions posted) aren't helpful. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are bullying .. they're simply discourteous and annoying.

Paul pointed out that it's not so much what is said, it's the way it's said. And this is surely something anyone can and everyone could exercise a little more care over. I certainly wouldn't advocate that all criticism should be forbidden or removed. But it should in my view be possible for people in an educated and humane society to post about what disappoints them, or what they don't like in a way that takes account of the feelings of the person or persons being criticised. If some don't like Meat's new musical style for eg .. I think they're missing out, but that's their view. I'll probably say that I love HCTB and HIAH and say why I do, but won't suggest they're deficient for not liking them. I simply expect the same courtesy in return.

And when that fails there's the report button and a team of moderators who will get to it as soon as they can, and we have seen them do this often. (Twitter and Facebook have far more to be worried about imo.)

Caryl

[The Flying Mouse]

The only thing I would slightly disagree with is..............

Originally Posted by CarylB

Perhaps it wasn't so much the "honest opinion", but the fact that the person holding it wouldn't let it go when others either disagreed, or said it didn't worry them, so it became a bigger issue and more noticeable.

I don't believe that someone should let their opinion go just because people reply that they disagree.
In fact, if you tell someone that their opinion is wrong then it's natural for the person to stand up for their opinion all the more.

If somebody makes a post stating an opinon you don't believe in, it's sometimes better not to respond and let the unchallenged opinion stand and then slide into obscurity.

IMHO it's when people tell the poster they are wrong (prompting to the poster defending themselves) that causes things to blow out of proportion and become a problem.

As I said earlier, ignoring people is a much under rated skill at times.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by stretch37

We have a choice to make.

"We" don't have to do anything, especially not something defined by you. Stop speaking for everybody and stop trying to force what you think is "right" and what you want to do on everybody else! What makes you believe that you have the right to dictate others what to say and what to do? This thread has shown that there aren't that many members who concur with you but apparently you are not willing to accept that and obsessively try to get your way anyway.

I agree with what was said by The Flying Mouse, Monstro, Julie, Adje and Paul Richardson.

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Perhaps it wasn't so much the "honest opinion", but the fact that the person holding it wouldn't let it go when others either disagreed, or said it didn't worry them, so it became a bigger issue and more noticeable.

Caryl

Actually Caryl I don't believe I did harp on about it or not let it go. I posted about it and someone asked me a question. I answered the question as one politely answers when asked, and that was when Meat came in. After that it was defending myself from everyone going off the deep end. So I may be wrong as I haven't read the thread in ages if it still exists but I believe I only posted twice before it turned into something ridiculous. I don't think you could call that not letting something go. In fact i'd go further and say I would have just posted once if someone hadn't asked me a question. So I respectfully say I believe you are wrong, although I am happy to be proved wrong myself.

[stretch37]

Let me make things abundantly clear.

I KNOW HOW I FEEL AND I SAY MY OPINION.

WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT ONES. I DONT CARE IF YOURS IS DIFFERENT THAN MINE, THATS WHAT MAKES LIFE AWESOME.

I AM NOT TRYING TO IMPOSE ANYTHING, I AM JUST HAVING AN OPINION.

I AM TRYING TO HELP MEAT WANT TO BE HERE AND NOT BE UPSET. THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO MY INTENTIONS THAN THAT.


THANK YOU.

BYE.

[The Flying Mouse]

Posts leading to off topic argument deleted/edited.

Got a problem, report it.

[AndrewG]

This thread seems to start highlighting how NOT to fix things.

[Dave]

RESPECT denotes a positive feeling of esteem or deference for a person or other entity (such as a nation or a religion), and also specific actions and conduct representative of that esteem.

DIVERSITY means understanding that each individual is unique, and recognizing our individual differences.

I can only speak for myself when I say this and furthermore will throw blame for this squarely at myself when I make this statement…oftentimes it is forgotten that Meat Loaf is both a polarizing and all-encompassing artists bringing together a vast array of various demographics into his fandom. I have been to Meat Loaf concerts where I have seen both Hell’s Angels types and people in full-on Frank N. Furter drag talking in the same group. We are never going to see eye-to-eye and there will never be a consensus as to the essay question “what Meat Loaf means to me” among his fandom.

There are some who believe Mr. Loaf to be a serious artiste to be upheld in a lofty position of grandeur and there are some who believe that Meat is an amazing good-old boy rocker who has some pretty good tunes. There are some who believe Meat Loaf should work exclusively with Jim Steinman and only create Bat Out Of Hell over and over again and there are some who wish he would pick up a banjo and hit up the Grand Old Opry.

No one particular segment of the fandom is “better” than the other. No individual is a “true” fan who can declare others not. Anyone considering calling anyone “insane” for their opinions regarding Meat Loaf might as well be the pot talking to the kettle.

The board does not need to change. The moderation is just fine. The way to “fix” the problem here is for everyone (myself included) to learn to RESPECT the DIVERSITY that is the Meat Loaf fandom and learn to come together to rock with the man. In the words of the wonderful Meat Loaf fan Snooze and TMB, “attack the words, not the person” and if you feel the need to throw sand on another person’s keyboard, be ready to dust yours off in return. Be passionate, stand firm, but don’t loose your cool or RESPECT for the DIVERSITY of your fellow board members – that’s the way to really make a change here.

[Monstro]

That post should end this thread

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

I suppose now might be a good time to tell you that I'm a lawyer?
















(Just kidding, I'm not. Nor do I play one on television. )

That's a shame - you should claim to be a lawyer if only for dramatic effect...

[allrevvedup]

Originally Posted by Dave

I can only speak for myself when I say this and furthermore will throw blame for this squarely at myself when I make this statement…oftentimes it is forgotten that Meat Loaf is both a polarizing and all-encompassing artists bringing together a vast array of various demographics into his fandom. I have been to Meat Loaf concerts where I have seen both Hell’s Angels types and people in full-on Frank N. Furter drag talking in the same group. We are never going to see eye-to-eye and there will never be a consensus as to the essay question “what Meat Loaf means to me” among his fandom.

There are some who believe Mr. Loaf to be a serious artiste to be upheld in a lofty position of grandeur and there are some who believe that Meat is an amazing good-old boy rocker who has some pretty good tunes. There are some who believe Meat Loaf should work exclusively with Jim Steinman and only create Bat Out Of Hell over and over again and there are some who wish he would pick up a banjo and hit up the Grand Old Opry.

No one particular segment of the fandom is “better” than the other. No individual is a “true” fan who can declare others not. Anyone considering calling anyone “insane” for their opinions regarding Meat Loaf might as well be the pot talking to the kettle.

The board does not need to change. The moderation is just fine. The way to “fix” the problem here is for everyone (myself included) to learn to RESPECT the DIVERSITY that is the Meat Loaf fandom and learn to come together to rock with the man. In the words of the wonderful Meat Loaf fan Snooze and TMB, “attack the words, not the person” and if you feel the need to throw sand on another person’s keyboard, be ready to dust yours off in return. Be passionate, stand firm, but don’t loose your cool or RESPECT for the DIVERSITY of your fellow board members – that’s the way to really make a change here.

Originally Posted by Monstro

That post should end this thread

I agree with all of that...

[Evil One]

Originally Posted by allrevvedup

I agree with all of that...

A shame it hasn't even lasted a week.

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by Evil One

A shame it hasn't even lasted a week.

Well, as you know, some people just can't help themselves

[chairboys]

I've just called Kofi Annan. He's on his way over.

[Sue K]

Originally Posted by chairboys

I've just called Kofi Annan. He's on his way over.

Please... he's got his OWN problems... and those of the OUT THERE world !!! ...

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by chairboys

I've just called Kofi Annan. He's on his way over.

Lmao

[R.]

So I guess it’s time for an „official“ statement now that this thread had some time to rest. Here's what we have committed to:

• No new rules.
  We already have enough rules and guidelines on this site. My impression is that nobody reads them anyway or tends to forget their content very very quickly. So, here’s a little reminder of what we think is the cornerstone of a community like this. RESPECT. Respect others and their opinion. Treat everyone like you expect to be treated here. Please note that if you came here to get insulted, this is not the place for you. And bear in in mind, written conversation is very different to a conversation face-to-face. This is even more significant considering that not everyone around is a native english speaker. So, pretty please, before you hit the submit button, think twice wether you worded your post appropriately, or not.
  
• Self moderation.
  I, amongst others on this thread and in my pm inbox, think moderation is fine on this site. Right now, I see no need for additional moderators or admins. We might be late on some occasion, due to timezone constraints, but basically we get our job done. Still, there are posts that clearly needed more consideration by the moderation team. And this is where the famous „Report Post“ button gets another mention. I cannot mention this function enough. It is your tool to force us to look at a certain post (again) with the point of view you have sent as reason for your report. Recent situations show that we responded pretty fast. So, to repeat myself: USE. THE. BLOODY. REPORT. POST. BUTTON.
  Additionally, the report function has been enhanced so that posts will get removed from public view once a certain number of reports has been reached. Hopefully, we can then assess the problem without having a thread going ballistic in the background. Please note that we are clearly aware that this can be abused. Abuse will have immediate repercussions ranging from exclusion from this function to a permanent ban.
  
• Stricter Moderation
  We have, admittedly, not been quite as on the ball as we should have been and let the odd post go that is a little near the knuckle. But now we will take a stronger line against this kind of posting and we will respond to every reported post as soon as we can.
  
• Remember that announcement we put up roughly 2 years ago? We will remove that and install it in a more prominent location (Oh look, it already is!). We know it’s obnoxious, but it’s a very convenient way for us to remind you why we're all here.

Let's see how this works out.