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Old 26 Jun 2012, 04:11   #126
lyn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonAngel View Post
I personally find it sad that you consider others asking for courtesy and respect weak. Those two character traits are to be admired and valued in my opinion.
It is not about a one-sided rule. it is about making a rule that is fair to most - the fans and Meat included. Again it is about respect and courtesy, which you find to be "weak"
What is wonderful about this thread is the mods listened to what many have said about how to improve the forum and came up with a proactive solution.
Yes being proactive here is better than being negative Some should learn from that at times
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 04:19   #127
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Uh, there is nothing in my post you quoted that is in the dictionary unless you mean the individual words. Look at how angry you get. This is about more than youtube videos, it is about principle and people making arbitrary rules that are one-sided. This whole "courtesy" and "respect" straw man is weak. What was so wonderful about starting this thread? Is that under "w" for wonderful or "s" for starting in your Funk and Wagnals? If you don't get that there has been a sense of repression around here for some time look up "oblivious". Actually it should be a "no-brainer" that sometimes you are not going to like what people say and handling it like a mature adult so everybody else doesn't have to tip-toe on eggshells. When people admit that they have not posted what they truly felt to avoid being hassled that is just not right.
Lmao, how angry I get!!! Laughable really! I'm not angry! Frustrated.....yes.....but angry no. You are obviously angry though

If you think courtesy and respect are weak then you are sorely mistaken. They are only a couple of the human traits that Meat, and many other fans here follow and believe in. We owe it to Meat, and others here to do that. No-brainer that one Otherwise members here are going to leave as stated earlier in the thread.
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 05:47   #128
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I said it was a weak straw man, at least quote me straight please. I plan to take a break from posting anyway. This whole sheeple mentality from people who can't see the larger picture or understand what standing on principle is about are never going to do anything but follow. Asking people to Think outside the box is impossible when they can't even see they are in one.
It doesn't feel too good when someone takes your words and misquotes them does it? How does it make you feel
I can see the larger picture and that is exactly what I am discussing. I am also standing up for MY principles. Some of those principals are courtesy, respect, compassion and thoughtfulness. I am not following along with anyone here. I am stating my own opinions - what I believe in. Just because I don't believe what you believe does not mean I am a follower.
I think what upsets you is that the so many people support Mouse, the mods and the idea that they came up with. YOu therefore have to attempt to put those that agree with them and disagree with you down. I find it insulting to be called a follower simply because I don't think the same as you do.
Thinking outside the box has very little to do with what this discussion is all about. If you want to bring that into it, in fact I think Mouse was actually thinking outside the box with the orginal post. He didn't allow the status quo to continue. Instead of letting the usual negative, endless & pointless - in my opinion - debate go on about Meat's voice based on very short, poor quality YouTube video clips, he was proactive and came up with what was thought was a workable solution to that very isssue.
I can't say thank-you enough or give the mods enough praise for their actions.
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 05:50   #129
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I decided to delete my previous post. Instead of wasting more precious time with reacting to certain statements, I'm just saying this:

I hope that one fine day the members of MLUKFC will remember what this forum is actually supposed to be about and transform the war zone it has become back to the place it used to be. I'm not very confident that it's gonna happen, though.
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 06:09   #130
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I said it once, ill say it again..... KEEP CALM, CARRY ON. RISE UP, CARRY ON.

this is getting ridiculous.
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 07:47   #131
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I read the first half of the first page, then stopped caring because it was dissolving into the standard "what makes a real fan?" argument. So if I'm derailing the argument, I'm sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDoode View Post
I'm sorry, I just can't buy into this camera phone idea. I love Meat and that's why I'm here, but you CAN judge a performance based on most youtube clips, and that goes for most artists. If it's a bassy, distorted clip with little there on the upper end of the spectrum, and you can hardly hear the vocals, then no. But with 90% of clips, yes, you can hear enough to make your own mind up. Check out recent stuff by Sammy Hagar, Edguy, Iron Maiden, Van Halen, etc. There's so much camera-phone material of gigs over the past few months and some of these bands sound great, and some don't. On other nights, they might sound a bit better. Some sound worse. The point is, you CAN hear it, and you CAN tell the difference between the performance (basically), and the medium it was captured on.
THIS is exactly true. Saying that you can't judge a performance from a YouTube video is complete crap. A dodgy camera can't mask the fact that a singer may or may not be singing out of tune. It's an all or nothing thing, not "well, it sounds bad...but maybe it's the video!" No, it's not the video. It's the performance, and if you think otherwise than you're far more optimistic than you have the right to be. Will the sound be distorted? Probably. What WON'T happen is that it won't seem as if the singer is singing out of tune if they're not. This is really common sense.

Just as an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFR-JEe7qyE

The quality of this audio is absolute crap. It's a dodgy audience recording from 1987. And yet you can still hear that Meat sounds ~~~~ing brilliant, and so does the band. You can very easily make a judgement from this...and the only reason you people are up in arms about the other videos which were posted recently (which were of a similar quality) is because the person dared to make a post that wasn't overly positive. Can't you see how ridiculous that is? Having some sort of convoluted rule that bans YouTube from here is just stupid, because it's not the videos that are the problem. It's the people.

Accept that some people may not be 100% positive. As long as they're respectful, they have every right to mention to it.

ALSO, one more example. Go to the Everything is Permitted rating thread in the TTBH forum (it's on the front page of it), and read the top two comments, particularly the second one. That's the perfect template for how you should react to a negative post.

Last edited by Mr. Happy; 26 Jun 2012 at 08:07. Reason: Changed the link for one that was a little more appropriate
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 08:20   #132
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Originally Posted by Mr. Happy View Post
I read the first half of the first page, then stopped caring because it was dissolving into the standard "what makes a real fan?" argument. So if I'm derailing the argument, I'm sorry.



THIS is exactly true. Saying that you can't judge a performance from a YouTube video is complete crap. A dodgy camera can't mask the fact that a singer may or may not be singing out of tune. negative post.
Since you haven't bothered to take the time to actually read what the discussion is all about your opinion to me is almost worthless. In other words you are offering up a comment on a discussion when you don't even know what it is all about. I think it also being condesending and disrespectful others who have taken the time and effort to put their thought into words. IF you can be bothered to comment, I think you should at least be bothered to understand what you are actually commenting on so you can offer something real,productive and knowledgable to the discussion. IF you had in fact been bothered to read, you would know that the discussion was not about who is or isn't a real fan. It is about posting thoughtfully and respectfully and not making a negative judgement & comment based on a distorted poor quality YoTube clip that doesn't accurately reflect the real performance.
THere is one part of what you posted that I do want to respond to. YouTube videos taken with cell phone cameras that have very poor sound and very poor picture quality are not anywhere near a true representation of the actual quality of the true performance. Most of them are in fact crap. The sound is very distorted with the background noise, etc. You can't truly judge the vocals with all that distortion. The picture is also distorted depending on far back you are in the crowd and the resolution on the device you are using.
My example, if though isn't about MEat is this: At Motley Crue last summer I took a video with my digital camera of Tommy Lee's drum coaster solo; His drum set is like a mini-roller coaster that goes around, for those that are not aware. The sound and picture were very poor. I wouldn't want people judging his musical ability or the impact of that amazing special effect by my video. If you look up any of the official promo videos of it, you can see how truly awesome this event is. I readily admit, that the quality of my video is crap. That doesn't mean the effect itself was crap. I wouldn't post my own video here because I wouldn't want to disrespect Tommy Lee's ability like. that.
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 08:52   #133
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Originally Posted by BostonAngel View Post
Since you haven't bothered to take the time to actually read what the discussion is all about your opinion to me is almost worthless. In other words you are offering up a comment on a discussion when you don't even know what it is all about. I think it also being condesending and disrespectful others who have taken the time and effort to put their thought into words. IF you can be bothered to comment, I think you should at least be bothered to understand what you are actually commenting on so you can offer something real,productive and knowledgable to the discussion. IF you had in fact been bothered to read, you would know that the discussion was not about who is or isn't a real fan. It is about posting thoughtfully and respectfully and not making a negative judgement & comment based on a distorted poor quality YoTube clip that doesn't accurately reflect the real performance.
I read a quarter-ish of it, then skimmed over the rest. I took enough away from it to conclude that it's the same crap which has been going on forever, and I have better things to do with my time than read it all again. TheDoode's post stood out to me above the rest, and I saw that no one had answered it (shocker!) and figured I'd give it the respect it deserved. Considering that the whole discussion stemmed from this issue, and the rest has sort of been done before, I didn't think the comment was that out of place. You can call that dismissive if you want (and it probably is). I don't really care. Some people need to grow up.

@ the bolded part, did you notice the fact that I took the time to hunt down a YouTube link appropriate for the discussion? Or to find a post on these forums that demonstrated my fact? I don't post in this sort of discussions without some degree of effort, thank you very much. You can't brush off what I say just because it wasn't to your liking (and before you disagree, that's exactly what you did). Brushing off my entire post with something as condescending and disrespectful as "negative post" is ignoring my points in favour of shoving your fingers in your ears and screaming at the top of your lungs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonAngel View Post
THere is one part of what you posted that I do want to respond to. YouTube videos taken with cell phone cameras that have very poor sound and very poor picture quality are not anywhere near a true representation of the actual quality of the true performance. Most of them are in fact crap. The sound is very distorted with the background noise, etc. You can't truly judge the vocals with all that distortion. The picture is also distorted depending on far back you are in the crowd and the resolution on the device you are using.

My example, if though isn't about MEat is this: At Motley Crue last summer I took a video with my digital camera of Tommy Lee's drum coaster solo; His drum set is like a mini-roller coaster that goes around, for those that are not aware. The sound and picture were very poor. I wouldn't want people judging his musical ability or the impact of that amazing special effect by my video. If you look up any of the official promo videos of it, you can see how truly awesome this event is. I readily admit, that the quality of my video is crap. That doesn't mean the effect itself was crap. I wouldn't post my own video here because I wouldn't want to disrespect Tommy Lee's ability like. that.
I never said it was a true representation of the overall performance, and that's because you're 100% right. It doesn't show the entire quality of the performance. However, it doesn't make a brilliant performance into a terrible performance. If someone's voice sounds out of key in a video, it is out of key. That's not the video lying to you, and no matter how much distorted the video is, the person singing out of key. Yes, you may not be able to hear stuff properly, but it's not changing what was actually recorded. If that wasn't the case, the video I linked would most likely show Meat singing out of key, because it's a pretty dodgy recording. But, shockingly enough, it doesn't. Saying otherwise is to ignore what is being played for you in favour of following some fantasy you prefer.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Meat was singing out of key in those videos that were linked (I don't think it was all that bad, actually). But to dismiss someone's negative opinion on the grounds of "well it's a bad recording!" is pretty much the definition of a strawman argument. I have no problem with what Meat showed us. I have a problem with people trying to censor opinions they don't like based on something like this.

My apologies for disrupting the main discussion. Ignore this and go back to that, if you want. This issue has been annoying me for a while, and this seemed like the right thread for it.

Last edited by Mr. Happy; 26 Jun 2012 at 09:27.
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 08:54   #134
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Originally Posted by BostonAngel View Post
It is about posting thoughtfully and respectfully
The post that started this discussion isn't. It's about keeping opinions about YouTube videos "off the forum" unless they are positive. Mr. Happy stuck to the original subject that was discussed before the thread derailed. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonAngel View Post
your opinion to me is almost worthless.
The perfect example of a "thoughtful and respectful" comment.

This thread is beginning to become funny in a strange way. It seems to develop a life of its own. I guess my pessimism regarding the future of this forum was justified. I'll have a drink and listen to the song Mr. Happy posted the link to.

Don't forget to hit the "dislike" button.
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 08:59   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
This thread is beginning to become funny in a strange way. It seems to develop a life of its own. I guess my pessimism regarding the future of this forum was justified. I'll have a drink and listen to the song Mr. Happy posted the link to.

Don't forget to hit the "dislike" button.
The one I linked probably isn't quite as bad as the one in the other thread, but it's the best I could do on short notice :3

EDIT: Better example than the one I posted before. It's not Meat Loaf...but he's singing in key, isn't he?

I thought audio quality butchered that sort of thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-8apJ7yfcU

Last edited by Mr. Happy; 26 Jun 2012 at 09:07. Reason: I felt the need to be a sarcastic prick
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 09:39   #136
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Originally Posted by Mr. Happy View Post

..........I never said it was a true representation of the overall performance, and that's because you're 100% right. It doesn't show the entire quality of the performance. However, it doesn't make a brilliant performance into a terrible performance. If someone's voice sounds out of key in a video, it is out of key......
You are right it doesn't make a brilliant performance into a terrible one. Extremely poor quality of the audio portion of a video does make a good vocal sound like crap. Background noise, distortions, etc can make it sound off key when it isn't. Anyone who has been to a show of any artist and watched a brilliant, flawless sounding performance live, then seen videos posted on line of that show knows this to be true. The video itself can in fact sound off-key, even if the actual performance wasn't. I have heard it countless times on clips. I think it would be offensive & disrespectful to any musician to post such poor quality video as an example, which is why I won't go hunting for them to post. That is why the mods were asking that people not post negative comments and judge Meat's vocals based on poor quality, distorted and untrue sounding video clips. Don't make a judgement, especially a negative one until you have the whole true picture. I believe it to be a fair and reasonable request. I think that it does come down, at least in part, to having respect for Meat as an artist; An artist that you claim to be a fan of. if you aren't a fan, then why be part of this forum? That question isn't directed at anyone personally. Just a question for all to think about.
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 10:38   #137
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Since you haven't bothered to take the time to actually read what the discussion is all about your opinion to me is almost worthless. In other words you are offering up a comment on a discussion when you don't even know what it is all about. I think it also being condesending and disrespectful others who have taken the time and effort to put their thought into words. If you can be bothered to comment, I think you should at least be bothered to understand what you are actually commenting on so you can offer something real, productive and knowledgable to the discussion.
This is getting way out of hand ... I thought Mr Happy's post was thoughtful and considered, and certainly didn't deserve this outburst ... 'worthless', 'condescending', 'disrespectful' ... what happened to the respect and courtesy that some are promoting on this forum ... or is that respect and courtesy only afforded to certain 'approved' views and to hell with anyone else's ?

Last edited by Paul Richardson; 26 Jun 2012 at 11:23. Reason: Spelling
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 10:54   #138
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I can see where Mouse was coming from in his original point and to a degree, I agree with him.

I personally don't mind people posting YouTube videos from shows OR posting their opinions on them, providing they take into account that some videos aren't going to be muchn of a true representation of what a show really sounded like and to judge Meat's performance based on those would be unfair to him.

I've only been a member of this forum for two years but I've seen plenty of discussions go in the same direction and I think this one is another one that will just go round and round in circles until a stop is put to it.

Last edited by JennaG; 26 Jun 2012 at 11:40.
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 11:00   #139
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This thread is reminding me of a wedding when one guest throws a bread roll and all hell breaks loose..
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 11:04   #140
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This is getting way out of hand ... I thought Mr Happy's post was thoughtful and considered, and certainly didn't deserve this outburst ... 'worthless', 'condescending', 'disrespectful' ... what happened to the respect and curtesy that some are promoting on this forum ... or is that respect and curtesy only afforded to certain 'approved' views and to hell with anyone else's ?
I think it was disrespectful and discourteous of him to admit he hadn't read everything and therefore was not fully knowledgeable of the matter yet still offer up an opinion. People took the time to express their opinions. In order to form his own opinion, Mr, Happy owed those people the couresy & respect of reading them and becoming informed on the matter before posting.
Without reading everything, any opinion formed is based on lack of information, lack of knowledge, misinformation, and misinterpetation of the limited knowledge that has been obtained. To me, yes, an opinion not based on all knowledge available on a subject is worthless. It would be like me offering up an opinion on the last elections in Serbia.
Which goes back to the original idea of this topic. it is unfair and disrespectful to make a judgement, especially a negative one or voice an opinion based on inaccurate, distorted information. A certain amount of respect is initially given freely. Become dispectful, which in my opinion, Mr Happy and other have been, and the respect has to be earned back. To me calling people names, talking down to them, presenting your own opinion as fact, and not taking the time to read what others have said in order to be fully informed is being discourteous and disrespectful. Just my opinion
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 11:35   #141
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I think it was disrespectful and discourteous of him to admit he hadn't read everything and therefore was not fully knowledgeable of the matter yet still offer up an opinion. People took the time to express their opinions. In order to form his own opinion, Mr, Happy owed those people the couresy & respect of reading them and becoming informed on the matter before posting.
To be fair I think he was just exasperated by people arguing the same point backwards and forwards.

You don't need to read the whole of this (extremely) long thread to understand that this is the same (very) well rehearsed argument that we've had time and time again.

Basically there are two opinions, those who believe Meat Loaf can do no wrong and those that believe Meat Loaf has a career of highs and lows, with the former wanting to censor the latter in case Meat Loaf reads anything even remotely critical and becomes upset ...
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 11:47   #142
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Don't forget to hit the "dislike" button.
Brilliant. This made me spill my drink!
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 12:05   #143
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This thread is hilarious to me too
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 12:10   #144
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To be fair I think he was just exasperated by people arguing the same point backwards and forwards.

You don't need to read the whole of this (extremely) long thread to understand that this is the same (very) well rehearsed argument that we've had time and time again.

Basically there are two opinions, those who believe Meat Loaf can do no wrong and those that believe Meat Loaf has a career of highs and lows, with the former wanting to censor the latter in case Meat Loaf reads anything even remotely critical and becomes upset ...
If you haven't read everything then again your opinion is based on misinformation and misinterpretation of the matter at hand. In order to form thoughtful useful opinion you do need to be fully information. Again it would like me giving an opinion on the elections in Serbia.
I know he can do wrong, he is a human being and no person is without flaws. I am not of the opinion that no matter what he does he should be criticized, picked apart, and judged as less than a success for it, which is the other side of it. I am also not for the nit-picking of, well on this song, on the third note he was way off key and on this note on this song his timing was a little off from the rest of the band. to me that is being hyper-critical and just looking for the negatives. No one is perfect, and flawless. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
I am all for reading a negative opinion if the person forming and posting that opinion is well informed. If you have been to a live show and feel that his performance overall was off-key, his voice was weak, etc..I am willing to hear it. I will take the good with the bad. If that judgement of his performance is based on a short, poor quality, distorted video clip taken with a cell phone camera, then i am not interesting in reading that opinion, since it isn't based on real knowledge; it is based on a distorted ill-informed view. I believe in having respect for and being considerate of the man that you claim to be a fan of.
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 12:16   #145
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I wonder what Meat will make of all this when (or if) he reads it? I can't see it making him want to come back here again! Just saying.
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 12:33   #146
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Quote:
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If you have been to a live show and feel that his performance overall was off-key, his voice was weak, etc..I am willing to hear it. I will take the good with the bad. If that judgement of his performance is based on a short, poor quality, distorted video clip taken with a cell phone camera, then i am not interesting in reading that opinion, since it isn't based on real knowledge; it is based on a distorted ill-informed view.
But if you compare a bootleg with crap audio from 1987, with a bootleg with crap audio from 2012, its difficult to say that the vocals are better in 2012.

That's not an ill-informed view, its comparing like with like, and as has been said before, the band and Patti invariably sound good inspite of the quality of the recording.

Why on earth we can't simply state what we like or dislike without all this grief is beyond me.

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I believe in having respect for and being considerate of the man that you claim to be a fan of.
I don't claim to be a fan - I am a fan - at what point was I disrespectful or inconsiderate of Meat Loaf ?
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 12:37   #147
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Why on earth we can't simply state what we like or dislike without all this grief is beyond me.
Because it's no longer about music. It's about damned politics.

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Old 26 Jun 2012, 12:39   #148
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If you haven't read everything then again your opinion is based on misinformation and misinterpretation of the matter at hand. In order to form thoughtful useful opinion you do need to be fully information. Again it would like me giving an opinion on the elections in Serbia.
I know he can do wrong, he is a human being and no person is without flaws. I am not of the opinion that no matter what he does he should be critized, picked apart, and judged as less than a success for it, which is the other side of it. I am also not for the nit-picking of, well on this song, on the third note he was way off key and on this note on this song his timing was a little off from the rest of the band. to me that is being hyper-critical and just looking for the negatives. No one is perfect, and flawless. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
I am all for reading a negative opinion if the person forming and posting that opinion is well informed. If you have been to a live show and feel that his performance overall was off-key, his voice was weak, etc..I am willing to hear it. I will take the good with the bad. If that judgement of his performance is based on a short, poor quality, distorted video clip taken with a cell phone camera, then i am not interesting in reading that opinion, since it isn't based on real knowledge; it is based on a distorted ill-informed view. . I believe in having respect for and being considerate of the man that you claim to be a fan of.
If all you are presented with is a clip, and you want to discuss that clip, then you have to take THAT CLIP for what it is. If someone posts a clip for discussion, then it makes sense to discuss what's there, rather than what isn't. I don't think that people are looking to pull a performance to pieces and analyze every little part of every note, they're just commenting on whether, on the whole, it was 'on' or not. And for the majority of clips on youtube, you CAN tell whether or not a performance is vocally 'on'. This applies to all bands, not just Meat Loaf.

As for the other issue: I think that some users are feeling oppressed because it's almost like they're being 'banned' by others from giving their own opinions on a performance or a clip, even if those opinions are respectful (which they should all be, and for the most part, are). It feels sometimes like it's almost a case of 'agree with this or get ten thousand posts telling you you're wrong, calling you ridiculous, and hitting the dislike button on your posts fifty times'. Regardless of how you phrase it, it could be seen as almost passive-aggressive. I get that this is a fan page, upsetting other people is the last thing I want to do - like most of the others here, but what kind of a discussion forum would it be if people were prohibited from giving their own opinions?

As for not reading the entire thread... I have, and it's the same argument from the first few pages, going on and on again.
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 13:01   #149
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By the way who won the election in Serbia?
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Old 26 Jun 2012, 13:03   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird14 View Post
I can see where Mouse was coming from in his original point and to a degree, I agree with him.

I personally don't mind people posting YouTube videos from shows OR posting their opinions on them, providing they take into account that some videos aren't going to be much of a true representation of what a show really sounded like and to judge Meat's performance based on those would be unfair to him.
I think that's a fair middle ground. Some people may well be able to listen to a poor quality bootleg and not make ill-founded judgements, but we have seen many occasions when this has not been the case. I wouldn't argue that on some bad recordings you may be able to identify that a note is on or off key, but I still believe to judge the strength of a voice may be a very different matter.

Paul Richardson wrote:
Quote:
Basically there are two opinions, those who believe Meat Loaf can do no wrong and those that believe Meat Loaf has a career of highs and lows, with the former wanting to censor the latter in case Meat Loaf reads anything even remotely critical and becomes upset ...
I don't believe to polarise people like this helps, nor is it really accurate. I'm one of the people who has over the years frequently been accused of believing Meat Loaf can do no wrong .. you may think this. Yet repeatedly I will post that yes, Meat will fluff the odd note here and there, is occasionally off pitch, may miss a cue, may struggle at times. Mouse, who suggested and argued his case, will be critical of performances, and has not suggested at any time that he thinks people should not criticise, providing it is done with some respect for Meat's feelings .. which has been the position of Rainer and his team continually, because the performer in question is entitled to that. Phrases like "even remotely critical" just do not help imo.

People often say that they should be able to offer constructive criticism to "help" Meat. fair enough. However if you know someone is sensitive to criticism (and I'd say most people are .. you only need to look at how quickly people here get can get angry when their views are dismissed or countered) it seems pointless to say "He should have a thicker skin". He doesn't .. and if your criticism is to be helpful to anyone, they need to hear it without reacting defensively, so wise critique and advice will be couched in such a way as to make it easier for them to hear ie bearing in mind their feelings.

Monstro suggested that one way forward might be to not post bootlegs in the show review threads. That seems to me a good compromise. Meat is likely to read those threads. He has not given permission for people to privately record at his shows (most tickets actually prohibit it), and if he does not like this being done he, as the artist, is perfectly entitled to have that view. If it will irritate, upset or anger him to see a poor bootleg being used as a basis to deliver a negative judgement on his performance, why should we, as people who profess to be his fans, want to do this on a forum dedicated to him, on those threads we can be pretty sure he will read .. let alone see our right to do it as some principle we need to fight for?

Meat himself says frequently, he doesn't consider himself a singer first and foremost. He knows his voice isn't perfection every night from start to close. He puts on a SHOW .. a performance from an actor who sings, and every thought, effort and scrap of energy goes into giving people who go to those shows an entertainment. I do understand that the many who cannot get to shows want to see extracts from them. Julie said that she saw merit in the suggestion that sometimes those at a live show, being caught up in the excitement and pleasure of being there may not be totally objective. I wouldn't disagree, but surely this is what Meat's shows are about .. not a list of songs to be delivered one after the other, but an evening's entertainment, a spectacle he has conceived, planned and delivered to ensure several thousand people that night experience two hours of excitement and pleasure.

To me it's not surprising if he gets upset to read that someone who was not there to experience everything he's put together to deliver that night of excitement, finding his performance wanting based solely on vocals which they have only heard on a bootleg tape which may be distorted. His performance is more than his vocals, the night is more than his vocals. So given his over-riding objective is to give a great show to his fans, why would we not want to consider his feelings, and deliver any comments carefully and in such a way as to not make him feel bad? That's what I don't understand. Consideration for his, or indeed anyone's feelings, does not compromise my rights or principles at all.

I've seen the phrase "keep Meat happy" a few times, as if this is a bad thing. He works so damn hard to make us happy when we buy an album or a ticket to a show, why would we see that as something bad .. or let's flip it round .. why would we not want to try and avoid making him unhappy or distressed? I do not see a request for thoughtfulness as censorship, nor is it something I see as something unique to be afforded Meat alone. Thoughtfulness in how we address others is surely something for everyone. Meat deserves this respect, and we know he will read these review threads, so we know what we say will be read by him.

And just to confirm .. I do not worship him as a God .. do not think he is perfect and can do no wrong. I think he is a warm, passionate, sensitive, talented human being who works his ass off to do his best and give his fans a wonderful night of entertainment that will take them to a better place for a couple of hours. That earns him some thought and care from me.

Caryl
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