Verbal abuse

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Edit

When we love someone, it is also ok to be honest/ critical even when not everybody may agree with our preception

This is one of the most true statements I have read thus far in this matter. I know that sometimes I come off as hyper-critical of Meat Loaf about certain things. But, I believe in telling the truth - not sugar coating the issues.

For example, when I saw Meat Loaf perform in Cleveland, Ohio, this summer, I saw an amazing show. When I saw Meat Loaf perform in Detroit (just one week later), I was somewhat disappointed with the show, as compared to Cleveland. In my humble but honest opinion, Meat Loaf was having a very bad night that night. Quite honestly, I was very concerned that evening, as were the other people who I knew (who know Meat Loaf shows very well). Meat Loaf was not on top of his form that night. I am not saying it was a bad show by any means, but you could tell Meat Loaf was not feeling 100% when he hit the stage. He dropped his mic at least two times I can remember, was having problems keeping a grip on the scarf, and was having to utilize humor to cover up these things.

Having said this, does this make me any less of a fan? I woulc certainly say a resounding "NO!"

I know there are many on this board who I have chatted with on the various messengers (BTW, I LOVE CHATTING!!!) who have expressed they feel the same way about Meat Loaf shows they have been to, but are inhibited from posting true feelings here due to the way people are attacked for making honest assessments of Meat Loaf, rather than just going along with the whole concept that Meat Loaf is perfect in every way.

It further sickens me the way that when confronted with this issue, that people attempt to differ, but they can't. There are some on this board that are just stuck in a Type 2 mind set - that it is all about Meat Loaf. There are some that even feel the need to point out that Meat Loaf would agree with their points of view as well (at every turn).

I just cannot state enough that I fully disagree with the way people such as myself (Type 1 Meat Loaf fan) are, at times, attacked and terrorized by Type 2 Meat Loaf fans. Yet, the Type 2 Meat Loaf fans are always considered to be "victims" in this matter and Type 1 Meat Loaf fans are considered "bad people" because they are not blindly worshiping at the alter of Loafdom.

Double standard on the board??? Oh yeah - it cuts both ways missy, and you can take that one to the bank!!!

ROCK ON DOUBLE STANDARDS!!!

[Dave]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I've not taken anything you've said as anti-Meat in any way, because you've said nothing anti-Meat. I've never publicly hanged anyone. If you think my posts are patronising and/or "holier than thou" we shall, as you suggest, have to agree to disagree :)

AMEN SISTER!!

I would like to be added to the list of people who would wholeheartedly agree to diagree on this point! Where do I sign up???

I fully believe I have gotten this type of treatment from you on many occasions. Do you not think that referring to someone as a child and repeatedly calling them "boy" is not demeaning and patronising?

You constantly like to remind people how intelligent you are. You are always using goofy latin terms that no one understands to make points (that are for the most part lost due to no one knowing what you are saying). You are constantly using obscure references that would require research to discover (if I cared enough to look).

Maybe if you would stop trying to rise above everyone, and just join the crowd you might have a better time on the board. Seeing, as you state, your intelligence is higher than most, maybe the reason people resort to name-calling with you is because that is all we are capable of doing in our meger exsistence?

There is one thing to try to expand someone's horizons and to belittle someone.

Also, maybe you should take less time to continually re-inforce your opinions (i.e., your Rhette Butler line), a simple IMHO works just fine and makes people feel a lot less stupid for disagreeing wiht you. I feel statements like these are added for the sole intent to re-inforce a superiority issue somewhere. I know that is why I add them to posts here and there. Statements like these are made for an intended impact, not just as part of normal speech. Sorry, but many of us are indeed fully put off by your constant use of them.

ROCK ON AGREE TO DISAGREE!!!!

[ROSIE]

Double standards is that a new rock group?


Rosie


only, only 2 shifts left

[CarylB]

David, you posted twice, and some of what you said in your first post appeared to go wider than a reply to Edit.

I have never "terrorised" anybody in this forum, although I have disagreed with people, and even suggested that Meat might get fed up visiting a board where he was constantly being sniped at .. as indeed proved the case.

As to your assertion that "some that even feel the need to point out that Meat Loaf would agree with their points of view as well (at every turn).", I do not know to whom you refer .. if it is me, it is a gross exaggeration., and I don't believe I have seen anyone do this.

As to this thread, I started it because I did not think anyone deserved to have the repeated name calling by a few people that I spoke of in my opening post. As far as "patronising" or "holier than thou" .. I'd just say I would find to be called "missy" a good example of the former, but as Sin and others have repeatedly said, that's about style and interpretation.

But most people would take offence at being called a "demented old bag" or being accused of "wilfully deceiving Meat Loaf fans". There's little room for interpretation there, and that was why I started the thread. I am unaware of any previous discussions in which what you describe as Meat Loaf Type 2 fans "are always considered to be victims'". Adding different examples of people's style of reply, or attacking them, does not take away from the central issue that most people seem to be agreed upon .. name calling is rude and should not be acceptable.

ADDITION:
I drafted my reply and posted it without refreshing the page as I was about to leave to go to last night's superb Meat Loaf concert, so didn't see the last five paras added in your edit David.

I've always tried to express myself clearly, and you have most certainly made your feelings clear, even if some of your assertions are completely false (I have never, let alone "repeatedly", called you "boy" for eg, nor ever stated on this board that my "intelligence is higher than most") and others wild exaggerations. I write using the English I was taught. I have no idea what makes a Latin term "goofy"; those I have on odd occasions used (and not "constantly") are pretty common in the UK, and this is the UK forum; one was the motto of our Royal family, seemed appropriate and would not be unfamiliar to many British people.

My Rhet Butler line was added because so often when I wrote something positive about Meat, one or two people would come in accusing me of being a sycophant .. Yes, it was intended to have an impact .. why write if that is not the case? .. but I used it pre-emptively and not to "re-inforce a superiority issue somewhere". You say that is why you add them to posts here and there. We are all now clear about your motivation and intentions, but yours are not mine.

No further comment on the rest.

[Winston]

AMEN DAVID WE HAVE A BELIEVER

[Dave]

Originally Posted by CarylB

name calling is rude and should not be acceptable.

The same as patronising other people in the Meat Loaf community.

ROCK ON FIRE BALL!!!

[MEAT LOAF TRIBUTE]

Well said david! Havent always agreed with you, but on the points you have raised it appears we are singing from the same hymn sheet. Not going to repeat myself but i have expressed a simaler line of thought on the meat loafs not god thread.

[Edit]

Is this still a discussion or is it just about slagging people off?

I think it is starting to get a little bit too personal

[Em]

Caryl wrote:

As Sin said, we're not dealing with teenagers here .. we're talking about the behaviour of adults.

I think the kids in the community are starting to squabble again Edit

(expect I'm being patronizing but this does seem to be degenerating into a familiar theme)

[original sin]

Originally Posted by Edit

Is this still a discussion or is it just about slagging people off?

I think it is starting to get a little bit too personal

me thinks you maybe right

and quite frankly
1/ I can't be bothered to go around in circles
2/ I beleiev what I have said before, which is that we will see diferent things in different post, and we will not necessarily have the feelings as each other about the content

and to save my self going over old gound i'll do this...

I will never be able to agree that it acceptable to use derogatory terms in public forums, and I personally find that when this happens any valid point or position is immediately lost.

In our cyber community we are relying solely on the written word and a lot can be potentially lost by not seeing the grin on someone’s face or the twinkle in their eye that goes with their words.

Which is why I have said that the interpretation of words can be a personal thing based on different factors. We will all see the different “attitudes” mentioned in previous posts, and if we discussed these there would be a difference of opinion, because that it what it is , an opinion. Yet when we have darn right rudeness or offensive name calling I think we should all stand united in agreeing that it is unacceptable.

I think Flying mouse summed things up well a few pages back

[shadow1000001]

Originally Posted by Em

Caryl wrote:

I think the kids in the community are starting to squabble again Edit

(expect I'm being patronizing but this does seem to be degenerating into a familiar theme)

I think that you are right, on all points


Maria

[Em]

Think my previous post was condescending and patronising so sorry.
I've read lots of posts from both David and Caryl and I have a lot of respect for both of them. Just hate it when they get into attack and defence mode... and other people take sides.....

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Em

Think my previous post was condescending and patronising so sorry.
I've read lots of posts from both David and Caryl and I have a lot of respect for both of them. Just hate it when they get into attack and defence mode... and other people take sides.....

I hate when this happens to, but I will not sit back and allow anyone to be bullied in any way. I will once again (because some people are thick-headed and will not listen) state that name calling is a horrible thing, but I also firmly believe that others have bullied and tortured others with belittlement and condecending statements. A sin is a sin - there is no degree - black or white. I really feel that not only myself, but many others have been treated with less respect than deserved on this board, and other Meat Loaf forums and e-mail lists. I further think it is shallow and lowly of someone to make snipes at other Meat Loaf fans on private lists they know the person is not subscribed to. I believe that all Meat Loaf fans are extremely special and all deserve all the respect and dignity in the universe. I will not fade quietly in the night on this matter. I want you all to know I love each and everyone of you with every fiber of my being. I love every member of this board and wish only the best for you. I might disagree wth you, or think that actions you take may not be the most ethical, I still respect and hold a special place in my heart for all Meat Loaf fans. I even have love for people who I believe have wronged me. I pray for all of you every day. My fellow Meat Loaf fans mean more to me than any of you will ever know!

ROCK ON LOVE ALL!!!

[original sin]

Em, I didn't think you were patronising - frustrated yes and I’d agree.

Personally I don’t take sides, I will state what I feel on the merits of any given situation.

I have said time and time again that Flying Mouse summed things up well when he said:-

It also strikes me that there are those who seem to disagree/agree with certain people on matter of principle.I think this is wrong.I am personally happy to agree with a person on one thing and disagree with them two minutes later on another topic with absouloutly no hard feelings.There is a world of difference between agreeing with a person,and what the person is saying.

That to me is the crux of things. Anyone if they choose, can interpret what they want how they want to.

Caryl, brought a legitimate question to these boards as to what should be called reasonable “behaviour” on these boards, not anywhere else on the net, here, mlukfc.com, which is a special place for many people.

This has evolved into a discussion on people’s writing style and how this is interpreted by others.
But I will say again, the key word here is interpretation.

I find it highly amusing that all the attributes that are targeted at Caryl on this occasion I have felt time and again on reading some posts by David’s and others. However, even when I have read a post that I feel to be condescending, patronising or demeaning, and I go on to read something else written by the same person, this does not effect how I view that post.

We have all been agreement in the past, when David’s posts were copied from these forums to another, that this was not acceptable. Other boards and other lists are not mlukfc.

As for respect, that is earned by our deeds and actions is not an automatic favour dispensed on a whim, nor for position, rank, or wealth.

Fortunately I do not believe we are 2 distinct types of people on these forums, we are a multitude of nations, types, and personalities. What a fantastic mix! Yet, just a bond of music does not and will not mean that we see "life" in the same light, we will not have the same likes and dislikes in other matters.
Life is not an easy or straight road and I believe that basically civility costs nothing. If you read something and it is not abusive or rude, yet you take offence, question why.

Whilst I reserve the right to make comment statement and express my views on these forums, I hope to do so with out causing offence and that is never my intention . Should anyone feel this way I would appreciate if they contacted me directly, and privately, to enable me to rectify matters.
As this seems to be the feelings of so many I would suggest they do likewise.

Also regarding this thread, I am not going to get in the cycle of wanting the last word on thread, and will post no more.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by original sin

As for respect, that is earned by our deeds and actions is not an automatic favour dispensed on a whim, nor for position, rank, or wealth.

I am sorry you do not feel everyone deserves respect. I do. I believe we all deserve respect, no matter what!

ROCK ON RESPECT ALL!!!

[heat]

Hafta say, i agree with Sin that nobody deserves respect as an automatic right, respect is something that has to be earned.

I believe in having a common curtesey for everyone, that is only polite and politeness costs nothing.

I was brought up to be polite and curteous to people and to expect the same back. In today's society i think politeness and common curtesy have fallen by the wayside in favour of people saying 'well this is my opinion and i have a right for it to be heard' reguardless of how it impacts on others.

As for everyone deserving respect no matter what - i really can't take with that. Respect should merited on actions and words rather than something to be taken for granted.

[Vickip]

Originally Posted by heat

Hafta say, i agree with Sin that nobody deserves respect as an automatic right, respect is something that has to be earned.

I believe in having a common curtesey for everyone, that is only polite and politeness costs nothing.

I was brought up to be polite and curteous to people and to expect the same back. In today's society i think politeness and common curtesy have fallen by the wayside in favour of people saying 'well this is my opinion and i have a right for it to be heard' reguardless of how it impacts on others.

As for everyone deserving respect no matter what - i really can't take with that. Respect should merited on actions and words rather than something to be taken for granted.

Absolutely right Heat .. I couldn't agree more !
Vicki

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Vickip

Absolutely right Heat .. I couldn't agree more !

*sigh*

It is a shame you two feel like that. I always thought that Meat Loaf fans were the most loving, caring group of individuals who walked the face of the earth. I guess I am wrong. Sounds to me like I am seeing two Meat Loaf fans who could be considered to be less than loving to all they come in contact with. I am sorry you have a lack of respect in your heart for people, and pray that maybe one day you will find it in your heart to treat everyone with equal respect and show everyone just as much love as you can muster. Now, when I feel that someone is in the wrong, I will do everything I can to make it right - even if I have to make someone feel as if I have stepped on his or her toes.

LOVE ALL ~ RESPECT ALL

ROCK ON SAD DAY!!!

[Vickip]

Originally Posted by David M. Driskell

*sigh*

It is a shame you two feel like that. I always thought that Meat Loaf fans were the most loving, caring group of individuals who walked the face of the earth. I guess I am wrong. Sounds to me like I am seeing two Meat Loaf fans who could be considered to be less than loving to all they come in contact with. I am sorry you have a lack of respect in your heart for people, and pray that maybe one day you will find it in your heart to treat everyone with equal respect and show everyone just as much love as you can muster. Now, when I feel that someone is in the wrong, I will do everything I can to make it right - even if I have to make someone feel as if I have stepped on his or her toes.

LOVE ALL ~ RESPECT ALL

ROCK ON SAD DAY!!!

David, I try to live by the Golden Rule ... "do unto others as would have them do unto you". I try to give everyone the respect they deserve .. and can honestly say I've been treated the same way in return.

However, Caryl is a very dear friend of mine, and I know that certain individuals on this forum, such as yourself, have hurt her deeply with their verbal abuse and lack of respect for her feelings. Let's just say that if you hurt my friends you hurt me too ...... and any respect I may have had for you is gone.

Vicki

[ChrissybabezNI]

and any respect I may have had for you is gone.

This sums up how I feel on the matter pretty well. I think respect is there, and by actions of people it can be strengthened, weakened or lost entirely :) (BTW I'm not referring to anyone on here or anyone the quote I used referred to just summing up my point of view) [/quote]

[Guppie]

About deserving or earning respect... never thought about that. Come to think about that... I've never felt disrespected or abused on mlukfc. Nor any other group....

And I always have an opinion. No one on mlukfc has ever treated me disrespectfully. I do feel respected here by everyone, regardless my opinions or personallity or whatever.

But I hate people getting hurt and that's what I saw a few times on this forum. And I just don't like that, to say the least. Regardless of the person it is happening to. And - sorry to say this - it better NOT happen to me because I'd be mad as hell and respond in pissed-modus

But about earning... I reply and watch a few topics here. And I feel respected. I DO... and yet I am one of the members that always speak their piece.....

[shadow1000001]

I have to say that I agree with Guppie on this one. I always seem to have an opinion as well and I have never felt disrespected or abused for it.
I don't totally agree with Sin and Heat on the point of respect though. Personally, I feel that everyone deserves respect in one measure or another. For me, it's the way people treat each other which lessons or increases the amount of respect that they get, but the respect is always there at the beginning. I guess that it goes back to "do unto others".

Maria ~ Just my opinion

[ChrissybabezNI]

Hear Hear

[CarylB]

The thing is Guppie, I have always expressed my views clearly and courteously, only taking issue with people who snipe at Meat. I was pissed when I was accused of deceiving people, and when a card intended for my mailing list only was published on the web and all in this forum invited to see and disapprove of it. I was attacked for defending myself. I have been subjected to a campaign of name-calling by a small group here, which I have borne with patience and humour, but when it became too much and I raised the issue, I find my self now being accused of being patronising, holier than thou, asserting that I am more intelligent than the rest of you, bullying and terrorising people, and told I might want to consider taking a holiday from the forum.

The fact that I have never terrorised anybody here, that I have never claimed to have superior intelligence, have not said many of the things I have been accused of saying, seems neither here nor there. When I point out I have not said something this is ignored, and another tack is taken. Others may speak plainly, may say the same as I do. This is accepted without demur. That people seem ready to say that name-calling is unreasonable behaviour has imo been marred by some mounting a counter attack claiming that I bully and terrorise people. Not to put too fine a point on it that's balls.

As to respect, I approach people with an open mind. To disagree with someone is not to disrespect them, and I would never say "With the greatest respect .." and then go on to say the person was talking nonsense. But people can lose my respect. They do this when they hurl abuse; they do this when they make public attacks on me; they do this when they make false accusations about me to colleagues/friends; they do this when they make wild assertions, and when I point out these are not so ignore what I have said, and throw in another set for good measure.

The one thing which is clear is that for some people here I will be ever at fault. So be it. Let them huff and puff, exaggerate and stray from the truth. I'm done with them. I shall not rise to the bait, but will continue to post and discuss things with the many people here who are able to conduct conversation without sniping or waging some bizarre vendetta, and who have my respect.

[Sue K]

Originally Posted by David M. Driskell

I am sorry you do not feel everyone deserves respect. I do. I believe we all deserve respect, no matter what!

ROCK ON RESPECT ALL!!!

David, you mean to tell me then, that you respect people that would refer to another human being as:

demented old bag
sycophantic
unhealthy
sad
having withdrawal symptoms
on my third bottle of gin
witchfinder general
sergeant burton
the thought police
not having a life
raving "psycophantically"
an obsessed lunatic
should be certified
bull shitting
Caryl b (b is for bollocks)
someone who would hound radio stations "like she does" to get a CD of Meat's farts played
using Meat Loaf shower gel and toothpaste
kissing Meat's arse

???

That's okay in your book? Is that what you are telling me? You say no matter what? I'm just trying to get this straight in my mind.

You respect people that would use these hurtful phrases against another human being?

Well, I don't. I don't respect them and I certainly can't LOVE them.

And I can't find the book or rule or law that says I HAVE to. And I'm telling you right now, I WON'T be put down for feeling that way.

I'll try my best to get along. That's all I can possibly do. That's the control I will have over myself. The rest is ruled by netiquette.

IMO, if netiquette was out the window tomorrow all the held in check politeness that has been going on on this thread would be out the window. And if everyone would be HONEST with themselves, they'd agree.

The TENSION is so thick in here, you could cut it with a feather.