How to fix things ...

[Sebastian.]

Originally Posted by Monstro

Ok, been thinking about my post here for a few days and mentally re-written it so many times it's a joke so I'm just gonna say what this site means to me and how it's changed my life .(that is not an overstatement).

I first joined as a lurker, used it for info only but gradually got drawn into posting and never looked back. I can see what Neil means when he said how he felt about Paul's criticism of the site because I'll defend this place to the hilt, it's given me so much more than a place to gather Meat info. I can recite a virtually endless list of names of people I've met off here and can honestly say that I've made very close friends here (even though I've met Smoggies and Mackems). I've looked back over my pics of meet ups and events over the last few years and god they've made me smile, remember rock for three days in May? SamCat's 40th birthday at the Ibis after a concert? The karaoke night to replace a cancelled Meat gig? Dozens of us at Bath and getting absolutely bloody soaked? The Montana mob at the RAH? Meat's charity football at St James' Park? And the list goes on, I really believe that you'll get out of this place exactly what you put into it.

Changed my life? hell yes. I met my partner here in the days that the chatroom was popular, as a result of us getting together check out this thread for who was known as the forum baby http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthr...hlight=arrival (Jasmine got gifts from all over the world, no joke, we got parcels and envelopes from nigh on every continent) and if I ever pull my finger out and sort it I'll be heading for the third site wedding, yes the third, this place really has changed peoples lives. For me it seems that the growth of facebook has somewhat killed the community side of this site which is sad, seems like we've forgotten that we're all here for the same reason and despite our differences are more than capable of interacting in an acceptable manner.

And now the bit that'll cause uproar, I joined for the info but got drawn into the community, I truly appreciate the fact that Meat and now Paul post here (brilliant Production thread by Paul) but I would be hurt more if my friends didn't post here anymore as over the years I've seen a few leave and not come back, took me a while to appreciate that this site was set up as a site run by the fans for the fans and whilst it's one hell of a bonus Meat posting here I really don't think it's the be all and end all and by saying that it is is detracting from what this site has to offer and the quality of the forum members here.

Best post in here. I can't even remember joining here, but apparently I did! It was months before I finally posted, and I wasn't even aware Meat posted on here!

I've read some brilliant things on here, and found out stuff about Meat I would never have known.
I'm gone from being a nervous poster to being in the middle of one of those meet-ups. I remember sitting at Manchester Airport for my London flight bricking myself for some reason. But meeting everyone at the Pub and laughing non-stop for 5 hours, was just brilliant. Of course meeting Meat was amazing but it would have been nothing if I had gone on my own. I hope we have another one for the tour this year!

I love that Meat posts here as well (when he's not yelling at us!). I love that Paul's come on as well. I hope we won't lose hem and I'm sure we won't. I hope Meat see's this thread and sees just how much we love and respect him. This forum gives us a connection to the band that other fans don't get. But as Michael said I care a lot about some of the members as well as Meat.

I'm probably one of the more positive members when it comes to Meat's work, saying that I can appreciate the other opinions some may have. Though when it comes to some Members slagging Meat off, and being unfair it's upsetting, good work to the Mods who got onto that quickly tonight. Didn't even need to report said post.

Meat's music got me through some very hard times. I became a huge fan of his after his 2010 in Manchester concert. It was the first time I heard Rock 'n' Roll dreams. From that point on I was convinced that his music was for me. He and the band ble wme away. After a couple of months of building my colllection, I found Wario on YouTube, then his site then he MLUKFC. It's a brilliant community and as I mentioned putting names to faces makes it even more personal to me. I like Michael will jump to deffend his community, for every "negative comment" there is about 100 positive.

I hope Meat does come on here soon. I hope Paul sticks around as well, and maybe if we're really lucky the rest of the band may come on! With Meat's upcoming tour I want to hear his and the band thoughts on the show like with the HCTB tour. It's a brilliant thing to have and I'm sure we won't lose it.


So I'll gues I'll sum up by saying. Meat, Paul, and the band: We love you no matter what! We love your work, I'm sure we all have multiple copies of your work! I have four copies of HIAH, 1 digital and 3 hard and I'm debating whether to get a US one! Not to mention the other albums, In terms of the music I play on my iPod, it's 99.5% you guys. All the time. I'll be sure to be at a minimum of 3 concerts WHEN you come back to the UK. Hopefully I'll get to meet you all as well! I'm sure there will be a group of MLUK'ers front and center at at least one of the concerts (I'll do a banner! )

Agaiin this is a brilliant community. I'm sure I could never leave it! The Oxford St. Meet up will be something I'll never forget and I hope many more memories of the sort are out there on the future!

[allrevvedup]

This'll be the last thing I do before going to sleep while listening to the guide tracks for my new album(yeah, yeah, I know the obvious joke is my music makes people unconcious!)

Anyway I've read through this thread and to more specific read through Monstro's post and some nerves were hit.

I've been here for basically 9 years and I can safely say that it really took me three years to start properly posting here (It's all Zina's fault!)

I remember the chat room, getting to know people that i'm close, and in some cases incredibly close, to today. I also remember the fact that it took me 4 years to finally meet up with you mad lot only to pick a show that was cancelled !

When it comes to posting, i hope that i'm considered to be reasonably level headed. I believe R, Andy and the rest of the mods think so or I wouldn't have been asked to moderate in the first place.

With that moderation comes the really tough task, staying somewhere in the middle. I understand how frustrating it is when you read some posts you disagree because believe me us mods are no different.

We all have differing opinions and we all have ways of expressing them. I'll get just as frustrated at someone who borders on, or actually reaches, the level of insulting posts as well as posts that are so sugar coated that it'd stop a diabetic in their tracks.

So from those that want to make themselves known by bucking the trend and going out of their way to say an average performance was the worst thing to have ever been produced to those that take that same average performance was the best thing since sliced bread, it can be hard to digest.

I don't want there to be 'camps' as such, I'd rather have respect for opinion because, as much of a shock as it might be, performances, albums, singles, dvds etc are not always going to be at the highest level. That doesn't mean that it has to be anyone's fault, it's just life. You try and make the next day better than this one.

I suppose what i'm searching for is some common ground. Sometimes you say something is brilliant and sometimes it's crap. Mouse has said that some people post not thinking that members of the NLE or Meat himself will read it, but the way i'd look at it is that what you post will be seen by people be it fans or the artist themselves. So be true to yourself in your posts, but be respectful as there is nothing worse than being stomped on. I include artists and fans in that last statement.

I've seen other forums where worthy opinions were attacked because they weren't 100% in praise of the artist and it felt like vultures were circling. I don't want to have to moderate in a place like that.

When you read a post and are considering a reply, mentally take a step back, re-read it and see if you still feel the same way.

i bid you all a goodnight...

[suzieq]

I think this thread was how to fix things....but right now I don't see many suggestions "HOW" to do that. I've read about what this site means to other people and yada, yada, but I don't know if anyone has come up with a solid solution of how to fix and turn around the site.

1st thing is that moderation needs to acknowledge that there is a problem to begin with.
2nd thing is to post an update somewhere of what is being done to correct the problems they are working on.
3rd thing is that moderation should open their minds a little bit and see that this place can be more fruitful if we keep the band members and MEAT happy!

Some of the mods here are part of the fibres of the site, so if anyone should know how MEAT is going to react to something, WHY don't you moderate the posts that are going to piss him off? Some mods can probably speak candidly with him and flat out ask him? What would you like to see changed? How can we do a better job for YOU for a site that bears YOUR name so we don't lose you as a member?

When Meat is happy and he's on forum, it is sure delight. He is informative, fun, and answers questions. He may respond to some positive posts. His posts that he can answer....like clearing up the Bat III era....has been just as informative as Paul's Production thread. He was open and honest and answered a lot about that time period we wouldn't otherwise know. When Meat is happy to come to forum then has to read through hurtful things, he passionately defends himself. I believe rightly so. I think NO less of him for doing so and in which manner he does it. However, over the last, what 3 years, I think MEAT has changed. He was given a lot of static by fans because he used to use explicit language in his posts upon his defense. HE doesn't do that anymore. He's said it in a respectful way...and guess what, HE'S still getting static.

So no you cannot please all members all the time. But I think you can please band members and Meat pretty easy. Why not edit the posts that can be more Meat/band member friendly? Why not delete posts that leave room for reading between the lines (which we aren't supposed to do)? Maybe doing this enough, the offenders will either lose interest in flaming OR adapt to the existing rules of posting with respect?

RE: Meat posting vs. friends. Meat has been there for me when my friends couldn't be. When I'm mentally alone going through stuff. I'd much rather hear from the man who speaks to me in song, than to keyboard babysit one of my internet friends. Perhaps some of the mod team are too attached to their friends to moderate according to what some members want. Some members want Meat to stop by and post when he can. Some members want band members to feel comfortable here and post when time permits for them. It's very interesting when they do. We get first hand knowledge instead of speculation and inaccuracies.

I can't blame Meat for wanting to leave here for good. I do hope an understanding can be met so he doesn't leave. However, it starts from the top and trickles down. So, I'll leave you to it and fix it.

[Vickip]

Originally Posted by suzieq

I think this thread was how to fix things....but right now I don't see many suggestions "HOW" to do that. I've read about what this site means to other people and yada, yada, but I don't know if anyone has come up with a solid solution of how to fix and turn around the site.

1st thing is that moderation needs to acknowledge that there is a problem to begin with.
2nd thing is to post an update somewhere of what is being done to correct the problems they are working on.
3rd thing is that moderation should open their minds a little bit and see that this place can be more fruitful if we keep the band members and MEAT happy!

Some of the mods here are part of the fibres of the site, so if anyone should know how MEAT is going to react to something, WHY don't you moderate the posts that are going to piss him off? Some mods can probably speak candidly with him and flat out ask him? What would you like to see changed? How can we do a better job for YOU for a site that bears YOUR name so we don't lose you as a member?

When Meat is happy and he's on forum, it is sure delight. He is informative, fun, and answers questions. He may respond to some positive posts. His posts that he can answer....like clearing up the Bat III era....has been just as informative as Paul's Production thread. He was open and honest and answered a lot about that time period we wouldn't otherwise know. When Meat is happy to come to forum then has to read through hurtful things, he passionately defends himself. I believe rightly so. I think NO less of him for doing so and in which manner he does it. However, over the last, what 3 years, I think MEAT has changed. He was given a lot of static by fans because he used to use explicit language in his posts upon his defense. HE doesn't do that anymore. He's said it in a respectful way...and guess what, HE'S still getting static.

So no you cannot please all members all the time. But I think you can please band members and Meat pretty easy. Why not edit the posts that can be more Meat/band member friendly? Why not delete posts that leave room for reading between the lines (which we aren't supposed to do)? Maybe doing this enough, the offenders will either lose interest in flaming OR adapt to the existing rules of posting with respect?

RE: Meat posting vs. friends. Meat has been there for me when my friends couldn't be. When I'm mentally alone going through stuff. I'd much rather hear from the man who speaks to me in song, than to keyboard babysit one of my internet friends. Perhaps some of the mod team are too attached to their friends to moderate according to what some members want. Some members want Meat to stop by and post when he can. Some members want band members to feel comfortable here and post when time permits for them. It's very interesting when they do. We get first hand knowledge instead of speculation and inaccuracies.

I can't blame Meat for wanting to leave here for good. I do hope an understanding can be met so he doesn't leave. However, it starts from the top and trickles down. So, I'll leave you to it and fix it.

Very well said Suzie.

[Monstro]

Originally Posted by suzieq

I think this thread was how to fix things....but right now I don't see many suggestions "HOW" to do that. I've read about what this site means to other people and yada, yada, but I don't know if anyone has come up with a solid solution of how to fix and turn around the site.

If you read through the posts you'll see that the majority appreciate this site and whilst there may be "issues" they can be overcome with a little bit of understanding towards others thoughts and opinions without disregarding them as yada yada.

And in my opinion this site doesn't need "turning around", it needs the members to show more respect and understanding to EVERYONE'S feelings/thoughts/opinions/posts before they post their own.

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by Monstro

And in my opinion this site doesn't need "turning around"

So, this is one mod who doesn't see that anything is wrong here.

Back to square one then.

It won't get fixed this way.

PS Yada, yada clarification.....did not mean I didn't read....what it does mean, is that there is way too much to rehash what's been said previous. I want to move forward and make the site better. It may never be better....this may be the best we get and without Meat around.

[stretch37]

I don't want to take away from the wonderful experiences everyone has had on here as a group. Indeed, I envy all of you who have actually spent time together at shows or had some real-life experiences together :)

This is a place full of wonderful fans, and colorful personalities. I love it.

However, that does not solve our problem.

What are we, as a group, willing to change in order to keep Meat feeling comfortable here?

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by stretch37

However, that does not solve our problem.

What are we, as a group, willing to change in order to keep Meat feeling comfortable here?

That's exactly what I'm trying to pitch a few posts up.

[Monstro]

Originally Posted by Monstro

If you read through the posts you'll see that the majority appreciate this site and whilst there may be "issues" they can be overcome with a little bit of understanding towards others thoughts and opinions without disregarding them as yada yada.

And in my opinion this site doesn't need "turning around", it needs the members to show more respect and understanding to EVERYONE'S feelings/thoughts/opinions/posts before they post their own.

Originally Posted by suzieq

So, this is one mod who doesn't see that anything is wrong here.

Back to square one then.

It won't get fixed this way.

PS Yada, yada clarification.....did not mean I didn't read....what it does mean, is that there is way too much to rehash what's been said previous. I want to move forward and make the site better. It may never be better....this may be the best we get and without Meat around.

Please read my post again, at no point did I say there was nothing wrong, I did say that there may be issues here and did in fact suggest a way that these could be overcome even though you think we're back to square one.

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by Monstro

And in my opinion this site doesn't need "turning around",

Meat's not going to change and neither are the members personalities. It's a moderation problem to meld the two together. So the site DOES need to be turned around. Otherwise you guys and gals are babysitters with no control.

[suzieq]

Originally Posted by Monstro

, it needs the members to show more respect and understanding to EVERYONE'S feelings/thoughts/opinions/posts before they post their own.

Hypothetical: suppose this NEVER happens (which hasn't in the years of my membership). What will moderation DO?

[suzieq]

Did we lose site of the problem?

Isn't the problem that Meat is upset and he won't come back?

Isn't the issue to be fixed that we want him to come back?

It isn't about in fighting among members. It's about Meat coming back here isn't it????

[Monstro]

Originally Posted by stretch37

I don't want to take away from the wonderful experiences everyone has had on here as a group. Indeed, I envy all of you who have actually spent time together at shows or had some real-life experiences together :)

That's the beauty of this community, we've all got stories to tell of our wonderful experiences

Originally Posted by stretch37

This is a place full of wonderful fans, and colorful personalities. I love it.

So if you love it what's the problem?

Originally Posted by stretch37

However, that does not solve our problem.

You know, I'm probably gonna get shot at for this but it's yours and some others problem, not everyone's.

[QUOTE=stretch37;568363What are we, as a group, willing to change in order to keep Meat feeling comfortable here?[/QUOTE]

There are issues, I agree that some of the posts on the site can be seen as being somewhat rude and argumentative (those that escape the mods) but most do express the posters feelings in an entirely appropriate and positive way.

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by Monstro

So if you love it what's the problem?

....i get bullied...so does my idol...


As far as the other part goes, I'm not shooting you down. I am one of the most vocal so of course its going to look like theres only a few of us who have the problem.

*but i can assure you that is not the case. there are at least a dozen including Meat and Paul*

..perhaps a poll would help....ffs

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by Monstro

... seems like we've forgotten that we're all here for the same reason and despite our differences are more than capable of interacting in an acceptable manner.

And now the bit that'll cause uproar ... whilst it's one hell of a bonus Meat posting here I really don't think it's the be all and end all and by saying that it is is detracting from what this site has to offer and the quality of the forum members here.

Great post.

Having just reread the Leno thread (where I think all this started ... ) it appears to me (at least) that Meat's reaction is disproportionate to what was said ...

The timing issue, leaving aside whether he was actually in or out of time, is hardly important - its not the be all and end all of the performance - and we all know Meat sings everything in his own 'time' anyway.

The fact the issue was raised, and the 'offence' was 'caused', by someone who, on the evidence of posts here and on YouTube, couldn't be more positive towards Meat Loaf, I think shows how over sensitive Meat can be ...

So if we are saying that in order to keep Meat here, similar views and opinions need to be edited or deleted by the Mods (as is suggested above), then I suspect all we will end up with are 'approved' views and opinions, and the site will cease to be a forum in the true sense of the word ...

Surely the purpose of moderation (and I'm sure the Mods will correct me here if I'm wrong) is not to moderate the 'opinions' of posts, but to moderate the 'tone' of posts. A case of not what you say, but how you say it ?

While its sad that Meat may not post here again, (but it wouldn't be the first time that he has said this, only to reconsider), this is surely a site primarily for the fans (of all opinions, or 'camps' if we have to use a less than helpful term ... ) and not necessarily for the artist.

I don't think this site needs fixing at all ... and if it does need fixing then the 'solution' - (censorship ?) - may be worse than the 'problem'.

[kkzag]

I've read this entire thread. I will think before I post. I will read my post, think again...before I send.

I don't post often, usually I post my experiences at tour time of shows I have attended. I say "experiences" because I am not very good at writing a review...but loved sharing one of many experiences from a particular show. For Example when Meat saved my A** from getting kicked out of AMT for DANCING!!. That led to discussions and opinions of Standing/Sitting at a show, and I respected everyone's opinion, despite whether or not I agreed with it.

Now as far as being bullied, I have not experienced that yet but may after my suggestion of how to fix things....

Meat NEEDS an Official Fan Page....like we had on .net
I am by no means putting THIS fan page down...nor suggesting it has to be a "US" site, but I miss the .net paid membership (less trolls) member advantages and up to date tour info. We've lost THAT. Perhaps MLUK could be "it". I honestly believe Meat Loaf fans all have the common bond of truly "relating" to his music & dedication as if we know him personally...and I know some do.

I suppose my suggestion for improvement ultimately is to turn THIS into a paid membership Official fan site... OR having threads and posting ability on the existing Meatloaf.net....

Again, no offense to THIS site whatsoever...just voicing my opinion of what I would like to see in a fan club!!

Looking forward to this summer's JERSEY show's, and hopefully sharing my experiences again too! :)

Kar

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by stretch37

...i get bullied...

Do you have examples ? However you do seem to be quoted in a lot of responses from Mods of late. As you say you are being quite vocal, so perhaps its to be expected (quoted not bullied...), especially as you appear to have strong views about how the site is ran ... ?

[melon]

Originally Posted by kkzag

I've read this entire thread. I will think before I post. I will read my post, think again...before I send.

And this is something that I can make sure I do.

Folkes, you can sit here and point fingers at everyone else, or everything else. You can talk about it until you're black and blue. But in the end, it boils down to one thing, actually person. You. You are in control of your thoughts. You are in control of your actions. You can do your bit. I've learnt this very thing in the last year or so myself, and I haven't done it the easy way.

If you all want to "fix" MLUKFC, look at yourselves and what you say/do first, then worry about everyone else. Don't play the blame game.

[JennaG]

Originally Posted by melon

And this is something that I can make sure I do.

Folkes, you can sit here and point fingers at everyone else, or everything else. You can talk about it until you're black and blue. But in the end, it boils down to one thing, actually person. You. You are in control of your thoughts. You are in control of your actions. You can do your bit. I've learnt this very thing in the last year or so myself, and I haven't done it the easy way.

If you all want to "fix" MLUKFC, look at yourselves and what you say/do first, then worry about everyone else. Don't play the blame game.

Very well said.

If we as individuals take time to think about what we say, think about how other people will interpret what we have written and if there is anything that will cause offence, think again about how we have written it and how we can make it come across so that it is less likely to do so. If you've not thought carefully about how people will interpret your post before you hit 'submit' then you can't play the poor me card when people respond negatively to it.

[Evil One]

The selfishness on display in some of these posts is staggering.

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by suzieq

Did we lose site of the problem?

Isn't the problem that Meat is upset and he won't come back?

Isn't the issue to be fixed that we want him to come back?

It isn't about in fighting among members. It's about Meat coming back here isn't it????

No this isn't the problem Suzie, this isn't just about Meat. It's about everybody. Members upset each other more than they have upset Meat. It's not just about Meat coming back here. As Caryl and others have said Meat coming here is a bonus, not the be all and end all.

Monstro and others have it absolutely right. The way to move forward and fix things (and keep the bonus of Meat and the band coming here hopefully) is to think about what you say with more care. I myself would like to commend the mods here. They may not always get everything 100% perfect but then who does in life? But they are doing a damn good job lately and they were VERY quick to remove the insulting bad posts yesterday which could have upset a lot of people.

When people don't post with care then it causes bad feeling and people start arguing and it snowballs out of control. I love loads of people on here but I don't agree with their views all the time. But I don't care because it's okay to have different views. The world would be a VERY boring place if we all thought the same about something.

The mods HAVE recognised there is a problem, and their solution for fixing things is the right one.

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by stretch37

What are we, as a group, willing to change in order to keep Meat feeling comfortable here?

I think this is wrong Stretch, with respect it should be what are we willing to change in order to keep all members feeling comfortable?

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by Monstro

If you read through the posts you'll see that the majority appreciate this site and whilst there may be "issues" they can be overcome with a little bit of understanding towards others thoughts and opinions without disregarding them as yada yada.

And in my opinion this site doesn't need "turning around", it needs the members to show more respect and understanding to EVERYONE'S feelings/thoughts/opinions/posts before they post their own.

[CarylB]

On the production thread Paul posted in a reply to a question about FOH sound mix:

"This is VERY shaky ground. It's incredibly easy for a guy like me to annoy any FOH engineer and I'm positive that I annoy...
I do the best I can ... "

Paul thinks about everything George is having to deal with, and considers George's feelings and perspective before he acts or speaks. That's all it takes, whether it's George, Meat, or any other member here. As Mel says, it's down to everyone and the language they choose to use. And as Michael said, the site doesn't need "turning around", it needs the members to show respect to and understanding of others' feelings. Most of the time that happens. When it doesn't there's a problem. If Meat's feelings aren't considered he walks away, and many of us are saddened by that, because we do see him posting here as something special and to be nurtured.

Meat is passionate in and about his work; it's what attracts most of us to it and to him, and what makes many of us passionate about it and him. Just like 40 lawyers at the bottom of the sea, thinking about how your post may be interpreted before you hit submit is a good start.

Caryl

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by CarylB

On the production thread Paul posted in a reply to a question about FOH sound mix:

"This is VERY shaky ground. It's incredibly easy for a guy like me to annoy any FOH engineer and I'm positive that I annoy...
I do the best I can ... "

Paul thinks about everything George is having to deal with, and considers George's feelings and perspective before he acts or speaks. That's all it takes, whether it's George, Meat, or any other member here. As Mel says, it's down to everyone and the language they choose to use. And as Michael said, the site doesn't need "turning around", it needs the members to show respect to and understanding of others' feelings. Most of the time that happens. When it doesn't there's a problem. If Meat's feelings aren't considered he walks away, and many of us are saddened by that, because we do see him posting here as something special and to be nurtured.

Meat is passionate in and about his work; it's what attracts most of us to it and to him, and what makes many of us passionate about it and him. Just like 40 lawyers at the bottom of the sea, thinking about how your post may be interpreted before you hit submit is a good start.

Caryl