How to fix things ...

[R.]

As suggested by Paul here.

[JennaG]

I enjoy taking part in discussions on this forum and feel that we have had some great discussions and I feel that the recent thread created by Paul has changed the vibes within this community. I no longer get the feeling that we are at the stage where we were a couple of weeks ago where there was a definate air of argumentativeness amongst members.

I think what is causing the problem is opinions. We're not all going to have the same opinion and it would be a pretty boring world if we did but I feel that some people are percieving their opinions to be superior or perhaps that their opinion is the truth and those that don't agree are negative/blinded by love/insane and these are all things that have been thrown into discussions in recent months. I think that yes, people are entitled to have their opinion but when expressing it they ought to consider other people, their feelings and the fact that there are going to be some that won't share the same opinion. It doesn't mean that the opinion is less of a valid one.

We are all here because we enjoy the work that Meat (with the aid of the songwriters and his awesome band) has created, whether it's the classic stuff or the newer stuff, we still share that common interest.

Meat recorded a song called 'All of Me' which basically summed up who he is and I feel that the song was him asking for acceptance for all that he is. We know he's an emotional man, his performances wouldn't have the same passion if he wasn't. Whether we like his emotional side or not, it's him. He is in a unique position in that it's him we are talking about and if I were to get the amount of negatives that he has had to deal with at times, I'd be pretty upset too. He may be the performer and the celebrity but he's a human being and sometimes I think it would be beneficial to try and see things from his point of view.

I look forward to taking part in some interesting discussions as time goes on.

[stretch37]

A few weeks ago, several of us got really upset and went somewhere else because of this (well, most of us stayed here, but temporarily posted elsewhere). I actually had my account cancelled, and about a week or two later, really began to miss the diversity this place has to offer.

But before I had my account cancelled, I had been rallying for a different set of rules for this fan club because Meat takes part in our discussions.

Those of us who stood up for Meat's feelings of upsetness were told we were in the wrong and "shushed"....As well, those who felt Meat was in the wrong for being upset were "shushed". Generally by threads being closed. This has been the solution for years and has not worked. I agree its definitely time for something new.

The "new" thing has to be that, as part of the fan club rules, all comments must be respectful of Meat Loaf, and anyone who is not respectful is the one that should be individually "shushed", and, if they do not comply, should be banned.

"Respecting Meat & The NLE" should be regarded as:

• Talking as if your in the same room as Meat Or A Band Member
• Personal Opinion such as "i do not like this" is fine
• Personal opinion such as "this performance is crap" is strictly forbidden
• Critique of Meat Loaf as a person strictly forbidden (and unwelcome)
• Mods take those lovely "hidden nuggets" of criticism as actual criticism, rather than letting them slip under the rug

There is an undercurrent of negativity that resides here. And that undercurrent is caused by the constant clash between two groups of people:

The "True Fans"
-Fans who go out of their way to treat Meat respectfully and act like a "fan" would towards an artist he/she adores.
-Generally are agreeable to Meat's ideas and form their thoughts towards him respectfully even if the thought is in disagreeance
-Feel bullied by "Honest Fans"

The "Honest Fans"
-Fans who feel that freedom of speech is the utmost important feature of these forums.
-Will speak their mind and word things how they feel in the moment without worry about how it will effect Meat.
-Tend to upset Meat at times, but also encourage some good conversation and laughter at other times
-Feel bullied by the "True Fans"

Generally most people on here fit into those two categories, whether they have always been a part of one or the other is irrelevant. I tend to side towards respecting Meat as I feel honored to be able to speak with him as a young boy who grew up on an island in Canada! What a dream come true. But I also respect those who speak their mind. Sometimes honesty is extremely refreshing.

But in the end, we have now collectively upset Meat. Blame cannot be placed in any one place. And as a group, it is our responsibility to right the wrong we have done. Perhaps an apology card is in order Caryl ? But first, we need to decide how we can assure that this will NEVER happen again.

First step in my mind is that this forum have a new set of rules. This fan forum is *not* just any fan forum. It is one in which the artists visit and regularly participate, and it has shown over the years that rules that rules that would normally apply to just *any* fan club do not suffice here.

Thoughts ?

[DJLeen]

I find that a good idea.

[Vickip]

Skybird14 and stretch37 have both raised some very valid points.

I was one of the ones who left for a little bit because I couldn't deal with the negativity ... and as a result, I no longer
feel comfortable getting involved in the discussions. Nor will I post ANY video clips (such as Leno) or news links ... I'll leave those to
someone else from now on I will say, however, that I'm thoroughly enjoying Paul's discussion about the CD production and thank him
for his continuing support and love that he clearly has for Meat

For me it all boils down to two things :
(1). Respect : Respect for the feelings of anyone who posts on here, especially Meat.
(2). The Golden rule : Do unto others as you would have them do unto you .... and perhaps more importantly, think before you post.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by stretch37

Perhaps an apology card is in order Caryl ?

Not sure why this is addressed to me?

We've been here before. My view is this. I agree with Matt that having the artist visit here is pretty exceptional, and Paul's presence has certainly produced a more positive vibe.

Jenna wrote:

Meat recorded a song called 'All of Me' which basically summed up who he is and I feel that the song was him asking for acceptance for all that he is. We know he's an emotional man, his performances wouldn't have the same passion if he wasn't. Whether we like his emotional side or not, it's him. He is in a unique position in that it's him we are talking about and if I were to get the amount of negatives that he has had to deal with at times, I'd be pretty upset too. He may be the performer and the celebrity but he's a human being and sometimes I think it would be beneficial to try and see things from his point of view.

That sums it up for me. Meat doesn't expect everyone to like everything, and he is open to feedback on his work (and I use the word feedback intentionally, because in my experience once people start talking about giving "constructive criticism" what follows is frequently criticism with little constructive about it, not just here, but everywhere). But feedback needs to be given with an appreciation for the feelings of the person, or they simply can't hear it. And that's important, as is NOT criticising (constructively or otherwise) Meat's character, motivation, integrity and values. They're his and are not his work. And it would be good for people to remember how important his work is to him, how much effort and energy he puts into it, and bear in mind how he will feel when that is criticised.

Yes, opinions are fine .. and so is disagreeing with them. I hate the term "true fan" personally as I have no idea what that means and suspect everyone has a different perspective. But given I suspect I fall into Matt's definition above, I think it's perfectly fair for me to say I disagree with a criticism posted here as long as I don't dismiss it rudely, but simply post my different view .. and as long as I'm not dismissed as being besotted or blinded for not agreeing, I'm perfectly happy to post that view and move on. But tell me that's "typical" of me, or imply my judgement or rationality is flawed by my blindness or insanity and I won't. I don't feel "bullied" .. no-one here puts the food on my table .. but tell me I'm blinded by love or my beliefs/views are wrong and I'll respond. My views may be different, but no less valid. They're just mine.

And I think it's not unreasonable to expect than a fan site, by definition, will have many people posting who DO admire and love the performer and his work. Above all, everyone who posts here should have and show respect for Meat, for his endeavours, his honesty, the quality of the years of work he has given us, even when he produces a piece of work that appeals less to some of us. And respect and care for his feelings. His work is so much a part of him, springs from his inner creativity. He cares about it, he is passionate about it, he is honest about it. He seeks to find and deliver the truth. That means it matters to him. A lot.

You may not like something. This does not mean it has no value, nor that it is crap. It may have no value to you, but it has value to him, and to others .. like me

This should be a no-brainer. It's about exercising thought, care and compassion, not more rules imo.

Caryl

[PanicLord]

Originally Posted by Vickip

For me it all boils down to two things :
(1). Respect : Respect for the feelings of anyone who posts on here, especially Meat.
(2). The Golden rule : Do unto others as you would have them do unto you .... and perhaps more importantly, think before you post.

Perfect - amen to this!

[stretch37]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Not sure why this is addressed to me?

LOL, well it definitely was NOT addressed to you because you owe anyone an apology, I just mean't that because you make up Meat's birthday cards, I made a joke that you could make a card for Meat we can all sign this time too.....Just a joke though by no means do I expect you to be the one to do this. You are by far one of the most fair and respectful fans on here, if not, THE most.

Cheers
Matt

[CarylB]

Gotcha I was thinking of the cards the ref holds up

[robgomm]

I don't think things are truly terrible here. I would say the vast vast majority of members here are positive virtually all of the time. Unfortunately, and i've said this many times I think it's the same people that bring topics and this site down time and time again. If they left, this place would be a heck of a lot better. But unfortunately there is this thing called freedom of speech.

I think the real question has to be how far does freedom of speech stretch on a fan club site? In other words what level should be allowed. I think disrespectful, abusive comments should be kicked. When people use bad language towards the artist that's an immediate ban imo.

A month back I stuck my foot in it. You all know i'm one of Meats best supporters, but I also do reserve the right to make a critical comment. I made a wrong musical observation for which I have subsequently said sorry. What i would have liked to have happened is someone to correct me, me to apologise (as I did), and us all to move on. Instead what happened was a fiasco which was caused in my opinion not by my comment, but by a build up of feeling caused by the same few people over a long period of time. This would NEVER have happened if these people had been kicked. That's all i've got to say for now.

I'm saying freedom of speech, but respect for the artist as they know everything and we know nothing. And perhaps criticisms should be written as questions instead of people professing to know absolutely.

[CarylB]

I don't think freedom of speech is unfortunate .. but abuse of the concept is imo. Where it has been enshrined in constitutions it hasn't been done with the intention of allowing anyone to say whatever they wanted to or about anyone, whenever or wherever they choose; it was granted for more worthy reasons, and isn't an absolute anyway. I see no reason in decent society why it should be held above human compassion or respect for others, nor used as an excuse for failing to demonstrate these.

It's not dishonest to consider the effect of one's words on the person they refer to, and think about that when publishing one's view of their work .. just reasonable in any decent society

Caryl

[Mr. Happy]

Originally Posted by robgomm

A month back I stuck my foot in it. You all know i'm one of Meats best supporters, but I also do reserve the right to make a critical comment. I made a wrong musical observation for which I have subsequently said sorry. What i would have liked to have happened is someone to correct me, me to apologise (as I did), and us all to move on. Instead what happened was a fiasco which was caused in my opinion not by my comment, but by a build up of feeling caused by the same few people over a long period of time. This would NEVER have happened if these people had been kicked. That's all i've got to say for now.

I'm saying freedom of speech, but respect for the artist as they know everything and we know nothing. And perhaps criticisms should be written as questions instead of people professing to know absolutely.

Is that in reference to the Leno performance? See, the thing is, you were actually 100% correct (something like that isn't a matter of opinion, it either happened or it didn't), but people still felt the need to rip into you for whatever reason. Considering the amount of effort you put into supporting everything that Meat Loaf does, that attack was entirely unjustified, and I went a little after reading through all of that. It's not like you're the sort of person who waits for any opportunity to rip into Meat.

Generally, I don't think MLUKC deserves the bad reputation it receives. It IS positive for the most part. I don't think I've ever seen anyone outright attack Meat Loaf or anything he does, and if they have it's been deleted before I've had a chance to see it (which is good, because it shows that it isn't tolerated). Meat Loaf himself questioned whether this was worthy of being called a "fan club", and I don't think that's fair, because the people here are generally very positive and supportive. Sure, some people aren't always satisfied, but they don't exactly make an effort to start a feud with Meat over it.

BUT there are people who aren't happy with that, and feel the need to make sure everything is 100% positive, all the time. And that's when the whole bandwagon thing starts, and that's exactly what happened with the Leno thing. Rob said one thing - Meat disagreed (why, I don't know), and suddenly everyone was ripping into Rob. BUT...Rob was right. But because it wasn't 100% positive, people felt the need to question what was essentially a fact. Which blows my mind A more recent example was where someone made a comment which (as far as I can tell), wasn't meant to be taken literally (quantity vs quality), and was in turn attacked. It wasn't an expectation or insult, it was just an idle musing. Considering that, I again don't think was entirely justified.

To take that one step further. You know what that reminded me of? George Orwell, in 1984, where people are led to believe that 2 + 2 = 5.

Long story short. People to respect other people's posts (so long as they're not pointless criticism), and not mindlessly follow others (or attack it themselves) because the initial opinion wasn't blind praise. People are going to say "but that's not true!" but it is. It's not always a blatant statement that the person is wrong, but the inference is there, which causes hostilities. That's really all it comes down to. Freedom of speech is something that we're entitled too (so long as it doesn't cross any lines), but there are ocassions where this isn't evident. So long as people are respecting the fact that:

a) Meat is potentially going to read what you say
b) Despite a), you still have the right to voice your opinion (as long as you're polite )

then that's really all that's needed to fix the problems

Just my potentially worthless 2c on the matter :)

[samurai7]

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

Is that in reference to the Leno performance? See, the thing is, you were actually 100% correct (something like that isn't a matter of opinion, it either happened or it didn't), but people still felt the need to rip into you for whatever reason. Considering the amount of effort you put into supporting everything that Meat Loaf does, that attack was entirely unjustified, and I went a little after reading through all of that. It's not like you're the sort of person who waits for any opportunity to rip into Meat.

Generally, I don't think MLUKC deserves the bad reputation it receives. It IS positive for the most part. I don't think I've ever seen anyone outright attack Meat Loaf or anything he does, and if they have it's been deleted before I've had a chance to see it (which is good, because it shows that it isn't tolerated). Meat Loaf himself questioned whether this was worthy of being called a "fan club", and I don't think that's fair, because the people here are generally very positive and supportive. Sure, some people aren't always satisfied, but they don't exactly make an effort to start a feud with Meat over it.

BUT there are people who aren't happy with that, and feel the need to make sure everything is 100% positive, all the time. And that's when the whole bandwagon thing starts, and that's exactly what happened with the Leno thing. Rob said one thing - Meat disagreed (why, I don't know), and suddenly everyone was ripping into Rob. BUT...Rob was right. But because it wasn't 100% positive, people felt the need to question what was essentially a fact. Which blows my mind A more recent example was where someone made a comment which (as far as I can tell), wasn't meant to be taken literally (quantity vs quality), and was in turn attacked. It wasn't an expectation or insult, it was just an idle musing. Considering that, I again don't think was entirely justified.

To take that one step further. You know what that reminded me of? George Orwell, in 1984, where people are led to believe that 2 + 2 = 5.

Long story short. People to respect other people's posts (so long as they're not pointless criticism), and not mindlessly follow others (or attack it themselves) because the initial opinion wasn't blind praise. People are going to say "but that's not true!" but it is. It's not always a blatant statement that the person is wrong, but the inference is there, which causes hostilities. That's really all it comes down to. Freedom of speech is something that we're entitled too (so long as it doesn't cross any lines), but there are ocassions where this isn't evident. So long as people are respecting the fact that:

a) Meat is potentially going to read what you say
b) Despite a), you still have the right to voice your opinion (as long as you're polite )

then that's really all that's needed to fix the problems

Just my potentially worthless 2c on the matter :)

Very good post.

[Sue K]

I liked Paul's post... nice...xo

[allrevvedup]

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

Is that in reference to the Leno performance? See, the thing is, you were actually 100% correct (something like that isn't a matter of opinion, it either happened or it didn't), but people still felt the need to rip into you for whatever reason. Considering the amount of effort you put into supporting everything that Meat Loaf does, that attack was entirely unjustified, and I went a little after reading through all of that. It's not like you're the sort of person who waits for any opportunity to rip into Meat.

Generally, I don't think MLUKC deserves the bad reputation it receives. It IS positive for the most part. I don't think I've ever seen anyone outright attack Meat Loaf or anything he does, and if they have it's been deleted before I've had a chance to see it (which is good, because it shows that it isn't tolerated). Meat Loaf himself questioned whether this was worthy of being called a "fan club", and I don't think that's fair, because the people here are generally very positive and supportive. Sure, some people aren't always satisfied, but they don't exactly make an effort to start a feud with Meat over it.

BUT there are people who aren't happy with that, and feel the need to make sure everything is 100% positive, all the time. And that's when the whole bandwagon thing starts, and that's exactly what happened with the Leno thing. Rob said one thing - Meat disagreed (why, I don't know), and suddenly everyone was ripping into Rob. BUT...Rob was right. But because it wasn't 100% positive, people felt the need to question what was essentially a fact. Which blows my mind A more recent example was where someone made a comment which (as far as I can tell), wasn't meant to be taken literally (quantity vs quality), and was in turn attacked. It wasn't an expectation or insult, it was just an idle musing. Considering that, I again don't think was entirely justified.

To take that one step further. You know what that reminded me of? George Orwell, in 1984, where people are led to believe that 2 + 2 = 5.

Long story short. People to respect other people's posts (so long as they're not pointless criticism), and not mindlessly follow others (or attack it themselves) because the initial opinion wasn't blind praise. People are going to say "but that's not true!" but it is. It's not always a blatant statement that the person is wrong, but the inference is there, which causes hostilities. That's really all it comes down to. Freedom of speech is something that we're entitled too (so long as it doesn't cross any lines), but there are ocassions where this isn't evident. So long as people are respecting the fact that:

a) Meat is potentially going to read what you say
b) Despite a), you still have the right to voice your opinion (as long as you're polite )

then that's really all that's needed to fix the problems

Just my potentially worthless 2c on the matter :)

Originally Posted by samurai7

Very good post.

I agree, it is a very good post..disagree with an opinion by all means but at least respect the right for that person to have it. If stretch believes that this site is divided into two camps then it's fair to say that there are those from both camps that don't always respect that right.

[melon]

Originally Posted by Sue K

I liked Paul's post... nice...xo

[Adje]

Very good post.

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

Is that in reference to the Leno performance? See, the thing is, you were actually 100% correct (something like that isn't a matter of opinion, it either happened or it didn't), but people still felt the need to rip into you for whatever reason. Considering the amount of effort you put into supporting everything that Meat Loaf does, that attack was entirely unjustified, and I went a little after reading through all of that. It's not like you're the sort of person who waits for any opportunity to rip into Meat.

Generally, I don't think MLUKC deserves the bad reputation it receives. It IS positive for the most part. I don't think I've ever seen anyone outright attack Meat Loaf or anything he does, and if they have it's been deleted before I've had a chance to see it (which is good, because it shows that it isn't tolerated). Meat Loaf himself questioned whether this was worthy of being called a "fan club", and I don't think that's fair, because the people here are generally very positive and supportive. Sure, some people aren't always satisfied, but they don't exactly make an effort to start a feud with Meat over it.

BUT there are people who aren't happy with that, and feel the need to make sure everything is 100% positive, all the time. And that's when the whole bandwagon thing starts, and that's exactly what happened with the Leno thing. Rob said one thing - Meat disagreed (why, I don't know), and suddenly everyone was ripping into Rob. BUT...Rob was right. But because it wasn't 100% positive, people felt the need to question what was essentially a fact. Which blows my mind A more recent example was where someone made a comment which (as far as I can tell), wasn't meant to be taken literally (quantity vs quality), and was in turn attacked. It wasn't an expectation or insult, it was just an idle musing. Considering that, I again don't think was entirely justified.

To take that one step further. You know what that reminded me of? George Orwell, in 1984, where people are led to believe that 2 + 2 = 5.

Long story short. People to respect other people's posts (so long as they're not pointless criticism), and not mindlessly follow others (or attack it themselves) because the initial opinion wasn't blind praise. People are going to say "but that's not true!" but it is. It's not always a blatant statement that the person is wrong, but the inference is there, which causes hostilities. That's really all it comes down to. Freedom of speech is something that we're entitled too (so long as it doesn't cross any lines), but there are ocassions where this isn't evident. So long as people are respecting the fact that:

a) Meat is potentially going to read what you say
b) Despite a), you still have the right to voice your opinion (as long as you're polite )

then that's really all that's needed to fix the problems

Just my potentially worthless 2c on the matter :)

[Sarge]

Again I 100% agree with Mr. Happy. I was about to add some thoughts but refrained from it. I neither have time for nor interest in it anymore.

Within just four years I witnessed and experienced too many things on this forum to disenchant (to put it politely) one permanently.

Anyway, I'd like to thank R. and the mods for all the work they have put in this place. It still is the best place to discuss Meat Loaf related topics. The issues I'm having with it aren't your fault.

And R., don't listen to people who announced that they opened their own (allegedly better) forum just a few days ago but have already returned to complain about this forum and try to force their rules on it again. You've been doing a great job and created a nice meeting place for Meat Loaf fans. Thank you.

[stretch37]

*removed as requested*

[stretch37]

*removed as requested*

[R.]

Listen folks, I started this thread because Paul asked for it. As of now, I have no intention to close or censor this thread in any way. I'm asking you nicely to keep this thread on topic. If you find something that offends you, either report that post or continue your off topic discussion with private messages. You might even learn something from that private conversation. Thank you.

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Skybird14

I no longer get the feeling that we are at the stage where we were a couple of weeks ago where there was a definate air of argumentativeness amongst members.

There have been many many disagreements on this forum over the years, it's nothing new or recent.
It ebbs and flows with whatever is going on in Meat's career at the time.

Originally Posted by Skybird14

We're not all going to have the same opinion and it would be a pretty boring world if we did as time goes on.

That it would be a boring world is one of the phrases i've heard over and over through the years. The problem is that nobody seems to want a boring world, and a world where people disagree leads to threads like these (we've had a fair few in our time).

Originally Posted by Skybird14

but I feel that some people are percieving their opinions to be superior or perhaps that their opinion is the truth and those that don't agree are negative/blinded by love/insane and these are all things that have been thrown into discussions in recent months. I think that yes, people are entitled to have their opinion but when expressing it they ought to consider other people, their feelings and the fact that there are going to be some that won't share the same opinion. It doesn't mean that the opinion is less of a valid one.

Exactly
Opinions are, by their very nature, are held by people who believe they are right.
Has anybody ever met anybody who believes their opinion is wrong?
The problem is that a lot of people can be too rigid in their opinion, that they can't except how much pleasure somebody gets from a performance, or how somebody can see a flaw in something perfect.

Too often it's about proving other people wrong and shouting them down rather than posting what they believe.

THAT is a problem.

Originally Posted by Skybird14

He is in a unique position in that it's him we are talking about

A very important point, and one I want to come back to when i'm trying to put my own thoughts down.

Originally Posted by stretch37

A few weeks ago, several of us got really upset and went somewhere else because of this (well, most of us stayed here, but temporarily posted elsewhere).

Let's be honest here.
A few people left here because someone posted (in all respect and honesty) something Meat took offence too. Meat over reacted at the time (IMHO) and left the forum.

Originally Posted by stretch37

I actually had my account cancelled, and about a week or two later, really began to miss the diversity this place has to offer.

And to clarify this point for the record, so there is no misunderstanding, it was you who requested your account be deleted.

As for diversity, I thought that was the problem you had with this forum.

Originally Posted by stretch37

Those of us who stood up for Meat's feelings of upsetness were told we were in the wrong and "shushed"....As well, those who felt Meat was in the wrong for being upset were "shushed". Generally by threads being closed. This has been the solution for years and has not worked. I agree its definitely time for something new.

Threads were locked because people were getting too hot under the collar by "defending Meat" (who, as you can see for yourself) is not a person who needs much protection.

Case in point, the discussion that opened up about the youtube vid.
How the hell "evil trimphing", the KKK, and 9/11 all come up in a discussion about a singers career is beyond me.

Threads are locked because they have nothing new to offer but a continuing round of arguments that will settle nothing and encourage bad feeling on the forum.

As for something new, I thought that's what you are doing with your forum.
We're something old, and it seems that people still want to hang out here.

Originally Posted by stretch37

The "new" thing has to be that, as part of the fan club rules, all comments must be respectful of Meat Loaf, and anyone who is not respectful is the one that should be individually "shushed", and, if they do not comply, should be banned.

We have a rule here concerning mutual respect, and that applies to Meat as much as anyone else.
If we feel that somebody has made a comment made out of a mean spirit rather than an honest critical remark, 9/10 times they are deleted, and often we will contact the poster. If the remark is offensive enough an infraction is issued.
None of this is mentioned on the forum. Just because you don't see things happen, doesn't mean that all is quiet behind the scenes.

Originally Posted by stretch37

"Respecting Meat & The NLE" should be regarded as:
Talking as if your in the same room as Meat Or A Band Member

Agreed.

Originally Posted by stretch37

Personal Opinion such as "i do not like this" is fine

Agreed, but not everybody is always happy to let somebody say that and let it go.

Originally Posted by stretch37

Personal opinion such as "this performance is crap" is strictly forbidden

See the rule concerning posting criticism in a respectful manner.

Originally Posted by stretch37

"Critique of Meat Loaf as a person strictly forbidden (and unwelcome)

But what consitutes being critical of Meat as a person?
Meat over reacts sometimes when he doesn't like things that are said.

Is that a fact or am I being unjustly critical?

Originally Posted by stretch37

Mods take those lovely "hidden nuggets" of criticism as actual criticism, rather than letting them slip under the rug?

As i've already said, we make every effort to delete any messages that we perceve to be posted with a hurtful intent rather than an honest one.

To do any better we are going to have to ask people to donate crystal balls

Originally Posted by stretch37

There is an undercurrent of negativity that resides here.

Is that you missed about us?

Originally Posted by stretch37

The "True Fans"
-Fans who go out of their way to treat Meat respectfully and act like a "fan" would towards an artist he/she adores.
-Generally are agreeable to Meat's ideas and form their thoughts towards him respectfully even if the thought is in disagreeance
-Feel bullied by "Honest Fans"

I know that the term "True Fan" offends a lot of people because it implies that you are not a fan of Meat if you are not 100% positive about him.

Hell, I find it offensive myself and I believe I fit (if I must be put into a box) into that category.
Apart from being bullied that is.

Originally Posted by stretch37

The "Honest Fans"
-Fans who feel that freedom of speech is the utmost important feature of these forums.
-Will speak their mind and word things how they feel in the moment without worry about how it will effect Meat.
-Tend to upset Meat at times, but also encourage some good conversation and laughter at other times
-Feel bullied by the "True Fans"

Without freedom of speech (posted in a respectful way) there is not much point of a forum.
And, as well documented in the past, it would be "boring".

Perhaps some of the things that are posted in a way it is perceived "not to care about Meats feelings" are actually posted with no thought that Meat will read the post? Therefore huting Meats feelings is not the posters intention?


I have no doubt whatsoever that both these "groups" feel dominated and bullied by each other.

Originally Posted by stretch37

Generally most people on here fit into those two categories, whether they have always been a part of one or the other is irrelevant.

But sometimes interesting.

I've seen a couple of people who would fit into the "True Fan" box be turned to the dark side of the "Honest Fan" because of the pressure put on people not to say anything slightly negative. People get sick of being told what to think.

I've never seen a "Honest Fan" join the ranks of the "True Fans".

Originally Posted by stretch37

But I also respect those who speak their mind. Sometimes honesty is extremely refreshing.

Somebody posted an honest comment and you left the forum

Originally Posted by stretch37

But in the end, we have now collectively upset Meat.

I still maintain that Meat has a kneejerk reaction when he thinks that someone is having a go at him, and when he calms down it's soon forgotton.
No different than a hell of a lot of other people on the planet.

Originally Posted by stretch37

Blame cannot be placed in any one place.

Although i've seen it happen on a grand scale.
Even after the last thread was locked there were snide remarks about "we know why Meat has left the forum".

And for the record, Meat has been back and posted since the last round of the usual.

Originally Posted by stretch37

And as a group, it is our responsibility to right the wrong we have done.

Sorry, but it's impossible for me to read this sentance and not imagine the suggestion of a human sacrifice following close behind.

Meat is over it.

Originally Posted by stretch37

But first, we need to decide how we can assure that this will NEVER happen again.

I disagree.
We need to decide how to deal with it better next time, because it's going to happen again as long as Meat reads this forum and people are speaking their minds.

Originally Posted by stretch37

First step in my mind is that this forum have a new set of rules. This fan forum is *not* just any fan forum. It is one in which the artists visit and regularly participate, and it has shown over the years that rules that rules that would normally apply to just *any* fan club do not suffice here.

Thoughts ?

You have a forum where you can make up as many rules and regulations as you want.

We've spend the last 10 years or so doing the whole trial and error thing and this is where we are.

It's not perfect, but we must be doing something right because people keep coming back, including Meat.

My main thought on that is why did Meat come and find us?
I cannot believe that he looked up his own fans so he could come and tell us what to think.
He might not always like what he reads, but what he gets here are honest (as much as we able to ensure their genuine nature) opinions and feedback.


Right, that's me done until i've at the very least had a cup of tea

[stretch37]

I don't actually have a forum anywhere.....Nor do I want to have one.

Nor do I want to cause any upset. I wasn't pointing fingers at any individual here such as yourself Flying Mouse, nor was I directing comments about negativity at you. Actually, nothing I said was aimed at you.....

I like this place, and the people here, its a great place....run by great people with big hearts.

Having said that, there are issues and those are my ideas. They are just IDEAS, and maybe there is a better way that no one has come up with. I agree this place is doing something right, and more than just something, they are doing MOST things right, like 99%.

Sorry if I upset you Mouse, I wasn't directing anything at you. There is a problem, Meat's upset, I was looking for answers....not trying to point fingers at any individuals but rather at the problem itself.

Your reaction to me is a similar reaction to ones you often give Meat. Its like your treating me like a complaining SOB. well thats why Meat left....and that's one of the things I hate about things that get said to me. I was trying to help those who get attacked and upset, and now your just picking me apart for doing so........and the same cycle has started already...

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by robgomm

I don't think things are truly terrible here. I would say the vast vast majority of members here are positive virtually all of the time. Unfortunately, and i've said this many times I think it's the same people that bring topics and this site down time and time again. If they left, this place would be a heck of a lot better. But unfortunately there is this thing called freedom of speech.

For the most part, things are not too bad here at all, but once in a while things flare up and get out of all perspective.

You yourself know this after unwittingly upsetting Meat and then having your parenting skills openly questioned by another member on the forum

Originally Posted by robgomm

I think the real question has to be how far does freedom of speech stretch on a fan club site? In other words what level should be allowed. I think disrespectful, abusive comments should be kicked. When people use bad language towards the artist that's an immediate ban imo.

It's pretty much the way things are run already (although I don't think we are take the ban button very lightly).

Originally Posted by robgomm

I made a wrong musical observation for which I have subsequently said sorry.

As far as i'm concerned, nobody should have to apologise for an honest and respectfult stated opinion.

Originally Posted by robgomm

Instead what happened was a fiasco which was caused in my opinion not by my comment, but by a build up of feeling caused by the same few people over a long period of time.

I agree 100%

Originally Posted by robgomm

I'm saying freedom of speech, but respect for the artist as they know everything and we know nothing. And perhaps criticisms should be written as questions instead of people professing to know absolutely.

Problem is, when it comes to opinion there is no right or wrong, only person prespective.

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

Nothing I can argue with