A serious question about Meat, notes, singing and ears!

[Evil One]

I'm well aware that as Meat has got older his voice has changed, and I'm also aware that as we age our hearing also changes. For the last 10 years or so Meat's live singing style has included him hitting a note that goes straight through me and is unpleasant. I've noticed it quite a bit on the MSO DVD, and a fair bit on the 3 Bats DVD too.

Does anyone else experience this and know what I'm talking about, or am I spouting out of my arse as usual?

Before anyone pounces on me, I'm not intending this to be another Evil versus Loaf thread.

[nikox1]

Originally Posted by Holy One

I'm well aware that as Meat has got older his voice has changed, and I'm also aware that as we age our hearing also changes. For the last 10 years or so Meat's live singing style has included him hitting a note that goes straight through me and is unpleasant. I've noticed it quite a bit on the MSO DVD, and a fair bit on the 3 Bats DVD too.

Does anyone else experience this and know what I'm talking about, or am I spouting out of my arse as usual?

Before anyone pounces on me, I'm not intending this to be another Evil versus Loaf thread.

Meat has hes very own unique style of singing to say the least. i cant say ive noticed it? the show i was at on saturday blew me away, such power he has still. going back to the Bat 3 tour i dont remember being too dissapointed with hes vocals either? but if you feel or heard this note!! well fair enough

[Evil One]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about the vocals. Just one particular note that disagrees with my hearing. I've never noticed it in person, nor on HCTB so maybe it comes from the process of recording Meat's live vocals or maybe it's just me.

The bit that immediately comes to mind is Paradise on the MSO DVD, just after the Adam Sandler impression when Meat does the 'It was long ago and far away...' bit in a higher pitch.

[AndyK]

I always thought it was the eyesight that got ruined over time

I'd guess it's just the specific frequency of that one note and your ears.

[Evil One]

Originally Posted by AndyK

I always thought it was the eyesight that got ruined over time

I can barely read that!

Originally Posted by AndyK

I'd guess it's just the specific frequency of that one note and your ears.

It's quite possible. One of the disadvantages to being a nightclub manager for many years.

[Paul Richardson]

This is probably not going to be popular .... but here goes ...

I don't know how Meat does it. There are certain verses and lines within songs which he delivers with so much effort and power he sounds incredible, and yet when he sings 'normally' he appears (in my opinion) to struggle at times.

At times you think he's lost it and at others you think he's singing as well as he's ever done. The quality of the HCTB / Bat 3 vocals are probably down to editing a number of takes together, and I once read that Dead Ringer's vocals were recorded line by line and spliced together.

There's probably no doubt that his voice has been damaged over the years or has just grown older (certainly it sounds very different in each decade) and I think he now compensates in a kind of mannered style.

[MeatGrl1]

Or mabe the cyst had something to do with it !!

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by MeatGrl1

Or mabe the cyst had something to do with it !!

Here's what everyone's favourite online encyclopedia has to say about vocal cysts:

"Vocal fold cysts are collections of fluid in sac-like formations on the vocal folds."

"Cysts can deteriorate the quality of human speech production, causing diplophonia, a condition where the vocal cords produce multiple tones at the same time, or dysphonia, an impaired quality of voice typically involving hoarseness or a breathy sound."

"Cysts occur when a glandular duct becomes blocked and is unable to secrete. This can occur after an upper respiratory infection combined with vocal overuse."

"A ruptured cyst may result in a scar."

"Initial treatment of the cysts involves vocal training and speech therapy along with medical interventions to decrease irritation of the cyst. In many cases, these will alleviate problems from the cyst. In some cases, the cyst grows larger necessitating surgery to remove the cyst. Vocal professionals may also require surgery as the minimal steps do not improve the voice quality enough to allow continued performance with the voice."

[Wario]

I agree with 3 Bats man, but MSO is perfect. The audience recording that does exist of the first half of the show, though does have a very weird sounding moment during the intro to revved up and thats why we only get the one riff instead of the riff repeated. But thats nt the official source.

3 Bats from TMIL on I can see what you are saying.

For me also, I hate during the live rehersal B-Sides the constant whistling of the damn mics. And Everything Louder pains my ears to listen to.

But the thing I find most unbearable to listen to at times is modern Girl on LIVE IN 1987. The production value of that glorious version makes me cringe every time I listen to it. That song in particular was produced the worst and the shittiest. But Meat's singing makes it semi-bearable.

That being said, Meat is the best singer in the world.

[AndyK]

Originally Posted by Holy One

I can barely read that!


It's quite possible. One of the disadvantages to being a nightclub manager for many years.

If you want anything in a bigger font, just let me know

I know for sure that a number of decades of attending live concerts must have affected my hearing. There are times at many shows where certains volumes or frequencies just don't sound right to me, and I don't cope with distortion well at all. Having said that Meat's shows this year have had an exceptional live mix, perfectly clear and loud enough but not too loud that it distorts.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Paul Richardson

At times you think he's lost it and at others you think he's singing as well as he's ever done. The quality of the HCTB / Bat 3 vocals are probably down to editing a number of takes together, and I once read that Dead Ringer's vocals were recorded line by line and spliced together.

We had endless debates on here before about how the vocals were achieved on HCTB but to me after hearing absolutely stunning vocals live on tour just a few weeks ago I can only conclude to get vocals THAT good you actually have to be able to sing THAT well and that's what Meat still does, no question. To me Meat has never sounded better in the studio. Hence I think it is crazy Steinman even considering doing other things is an absolute waste of his and my time in my opinion. This music (Bat and all the other songs etc) can simply not be performed any better or in any other format than with Meat at the helm imo (it's no coincidence the NLE still sounds amazing even when band members get replaced). Any Bat musical in my opinion seems like a tacky rip off which I am surprised the original creator is even involved in, but that's another story.

[LP]

There is a slightly unpleasant phrase in our business (recording and mixing music):

"Sh1t goes in, sh1t comes out"

I.E there is only so much one can achieve in post production, the delivery has to be there in the first place. HCTB rocked in the studio, it rocks on CD, and it most certainly rocked live.

If I were to base my 'fandom' purely on HCTB and the NEC gig alone I'd be converted... it just so happens than Meat has a massive back-catalogue of amazing studio and live work that rivals anyone else out there. He's a one of a kind.

Luke

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Any Bat musical in my opinion seems like a tacky rip off which I am surprised the original creator is even involved in, but that's another story.

Probably because the Bat / Neverland musical is his life's work and ambition ?

I agree though that Steinman should write and produce again with Meat or at the very least allow Meat to record some the songs he's 'saving'.

[Evil One]

Originally Posted by LP

it just so happens than Meat has a massive back-catalogue of amazing studio and live work that rivals anyone else out there.

Studio work

Tours

Officially released recordings of tours

But thats a whole other kettle of elephants.

[LP]

Originally Posted by Holy One

Studio work

Tours

Officially released recordings of tours

But thats a whole other kettle of elephants.

I guess the stuff on the shelves would be a bad indication if that were all you heard, yes, it's a shame that the bootlegs are better.

Meat, give those live multi-tracks to me!! Lets do one for the fans and non-believers alike.

[Evil One]

Originally Posted by LP

I guess the stuff on the shelves would be a bad indication if that were all you heard.

Indeed. Going off on a tangent, the only great quality live stuff officially out there is:

Live Around The World
Live With The MSO DVD
HCTB Bonus disc of the Casa De Carne Tour
A handful of B-sides which are now out of print

All the rest is either poorly produced, a recording of a poor show or is only available on outdated technology. It's hardly a good advert for a man who's live shows are so much better than his studio work.

[24K]

Can't say i have noticed, but thats not to say that you are hearing something that your ears dislike.
I must say i am getting deafer and have ringing in my ears, my Dr has little sympathy, he knows i go to a load of Meat shows LOL...could give it up, or NOT ! My eyes are thankfully fine !

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Paul Richardson

I don't know how Meat does it. There are certain verses and lines within songs which he delivers with so much effort and power he sounds incredible, and yet when he sings 'normally' he appears (in my opinion) to struggle at times.

It is his technique. I am the same way. I can sing a powerhouse song like Bat out of Hell, Purple Rain, or The Show Must Go On like nobody's business. However, give me a basis four bar rock song - I suck. I can totally relate to what Meat has said about being an actor who sings. I am the same way.

[Pudding]

Originally Posted by Holy One

For the last 10 years or so Meat's live singing style has included him hitting a note that goes straight through me and is unpleasant.

He seems to me to labour a bit on certain notes, almost to the point that he's on a different tempo to the rest of the band

[A Slice Of English]

I find that Meat's voice these days has a raw-er edge to it, perhaps a little more throaty and less "pure" than his younger days. A couple of my friends don't like this but I have to say that I actually do like it, which is perhaps why I like the vocal performances on HCTB so much. A touch of gravel or as I prefer it:

"...granite on my breath..."

:)

[youngJB]

Originally Posted by A Slice Of English

I find that Meat's voice these days has a raw-er edge to it, perhaps a little more throaty and less "pure" than his younger days. A couple of my friends don't like this but I have to say that I actually do like it, which is perhaps why I like the vocal performances on HCTB so much. A touch of gravel or as I prefer it:

"...granite on my breath..."

:)

Exactamundo. The "rough voice" has become my favorite. Tracks like "Land of the Pig" and "Break It" are perfect because of it.

[CarylB]

Meat has just completed 10 shows over here, and almost everyone who has been to one or more of them has repeatedly praised his fine vocals. It's been a triumph, and he's aced song after song, night after night. His voice varied depending on the song and the level of passion and characterisation he puts into each. Worked perfect at every show I attended. He's nailed BOOH time after time, delivered stunning renditions of the new material as well as the classics, and 2 Out of 3 has been wonderful, every time.

Caryl

[Paul Richardson]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Meat has just completed 10 shows over here, and almost everyone who has been to one or more of them has repeatedly praised his fine vocals. It's been a triumph, and he's aced song after song, night after night. His voice varied depending on the song and the level of passion and characterisation he puts into each. Worked perfect at every show I attended. He's nailed BOOH time after time, delivered stunning renditions of the new material as well as the classics, and 2 Out of 3 has been wonderful, every time.

Caryl

The Newcastle show I went to was really good, but are you seriously saying that Meat is perfect all the time ?

He does struggle at times and did in the middle section at Newcastle. I don't think this is a problem and it didn't spoil my night, hell, he's in his sixties singing some demanding songs in a two hour plus show, but we shouldn't pretend everything is always perfect.

Just my opinion.

[renegadeangel]

Originally Posted by AndrewG

We had endless debates on here before about how the vocals were achieved on HCTB but to me after hearing absolutely stunning vocals live on tour just a few weeks ago I can only conclude to get vocals THAT good you actually have to be able to sing THAT well and that's what Meat still does, no question. To me Meat has never sounded better in the studio. Hence I think it is crazy Steinman even considering doing other things is an absolute waste of his and my time in my opinion. This music (Bat and all the other songs etc) can simply not be performed any better or in any other format than with Meat at the helm imo (it's no coincidence the NLE still sounds amazing even when band members get replaced). Any Bat musical in my opinion seems like a tacky rip off which I am surprised the original creator is even involved in, but that's another story.

Meat still has the vocals to do the job. My opinion is that there is more to why Jim and Meat aren't working together than we know. It probably has more to do with the business end of things then anything else. Unfortunately.

[Evil One]

Originally Posted by renegadeangel

It probably has more to do with the business end of things then anything else. Unfortunately.

Or it could boil down to the simple facts that Meat is stubborn, Jim is lazy and David Sonenberg is a huge, slimy ~~~~.