The Bruce/ Meat Discussion

[Sarge]

I'm glad you didn't suggest a Diane Warren song.

When we talk about "Meat's songs" which songs exactly do we talk about? Not everything is as challenging as the Steinman stuff.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Regarding the claim that Meat Loaf's songs are "harder to sing": I'll agree with that on the day he does a credible rendition of Jungleland....

When we talk about "Meat's songs" which songs exactly do we talk about? Not everything is as challenging as the Steinman stuff.

Very true. Again, 20 years ago, this discussion might have been different, but right now, I don't think Meat could do the wails at the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiBRVqx5IzI

Originally Posted by nikox1

Same could be said = let Bruce do bat!!

People have suggested that last tour when Bruce was doing all the covers. To me that would go against nature somehow (some things are just sacred, ), but I bet he could do a better job than Meat could with "Jungleland", at this point. My opinion.

For the sake of discussion, I'll give an example of a song that isn't Bruce's, either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZq5hy2RsvM

[AndyK]

Bruce and the ESB could do a mean All Revved Up and I'd love to hear Meat tackle Point Blank. But I doubt I'd her either.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by AndyK

Bruce and the ESB could do a mean All Revved Up and I'd love to hear Meat tackle Point Blank. But I doubt I'd her either.

"Point Blank" is one of those songs that for me, doesn't stand out on the record, but can be stunning in a live performance. (I do love the lyrics- the "Bang, bang, baby you're dead" ending is chilling)) Unfortunately, though, people don't want to be quiet and listen. I like this version where he threw in the "It was all, there, then it was all gone" line:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LuDqdptSbE

The same goes for "Drive All Night"- I used to think it was just OK until I heard it in St. Louis- it was mesmerizing. Unfortunately, the video cut off before the stunning "Don't cry now/ "dream on, dream on" refrain that ended the song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk79Bgl_7Ms


On another note, did you notice the drumbeat in "Save My Love" is the same as in "Took the Words"? I know it's the "Be My Baby" Spector-ish sound, but still.

[nikox1]

Ok I get all the differences , different songs etc etc,, could he sing this and could he sing that? But my ears, which are working fine. Tell me that meat is a more powerful singer with more range!!!

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

For the sake of discussion, I'll give an example of a song that isn't Bruce's, either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZq5hy2RsvM

Amazing! I love Billy but I think he has just performed that song too often (or maybe I just listened to it too often). Him singing it just doesn't sound as exciting to me as it did a couple of years back but singing it together with Bruce revived it.

Originally Posted by nikox1

But my ears, which are working fine. Tell me that meat is a more powerful singer with more range!!!

My ears are working fine, too , but I prefer Bruce these days, not only because of his vocals and way of performing.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Amazing! I love Billy but I think he has just performed that song too often (or maybe I just listened to it too often). Him singing it just doesn't sound as exciting to me as it did a couple of years back but singing it together with Bruce revived it.

Yeah, I love that performance from both of them. Too bad Billy didn't do as good of a job with "Born to Run":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qF8...feature=relmfu

Originally Posted by nikox1

Ok I get all the differences , different songs etc etc,, could he sing this and could he sing that? But my ears, which are working fine. Tell me that meat is a more powerful singer with more range!!!

Well, my ears (and my eyes) which are also both working fine, tell me that Bruce is a better guitar (and piano, organ, harmonica, bass, banjo etc.) player than Meat.

We can debate voices forever, but Bruce didn't get to where he is because of his singing voice. His major asset is that he happens to be a fantastic songwriter, who has written literally hundreds of songs. I think that's one of the main reasons he's so well-respected. Not to mention that he's an amazing live performer. Meat isn't really a songwriter, nor is he a musician, in the true sense of the word; that's a point that's been pretty much overlooked until now. Lots of other musicians cite Bruce as an influence, but, as one of the posts that inspired this whole thread stated, not many people (if any?) cite Meat as an influence.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Too bad Billy didn't do as good of a job with "Born to Run":

Yes, he seemed to struggle with it and have difficulties with keeping with the pace. But the fact that a professional like Billy encounters problems with it actually disproves the assumption that Bruce's songs are easy to sing. You need a lot of energy and passion to do Born To Run justice. I'd like to see Bruce do that song with Melissa Etheridge. Her performance of it was outstanding.

[MarkS]

Personally, to my ears, Bruce has always sounded like he doesn't open his mouth enough when he sings. Everything has always sounded like a muffled scruff. Short of Born to Run, there isn't really another Bruce song that I am a fan of. Based on what I just said, I have to say that I feel Meat t be the better/more powerful singer.

[Sarge]

It seems as if the discussion is about to go round in circles. I better go and listen to Wrecking Ball.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

Personally, to my ears, Bruce has always sounded like he doesn't open his mouth enough when he sings. Everything has always sounded like a muffled scruff. Short of Born to Run, there isn't really another Bruce song that I am a fan of. Based on what I just said, I have to say that I feel Meat t be the better/more powerful singer.

I'll concede that he doesn't always enunciate clearly (though I can understand him, lol) In some cases, though, as on "Darkness on the Edge of Town", this was done deliberately in the way the album was mixed (according to Chuck Plotkin, who did the mix). The vocals were purposely low, to draw the listener in to pay closer attention.

Bruce used a similar device on songs such as "Highway 29" from "The Ghost of Tom Joad". He's practically whispering- it causes you to pay close attention to the story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8uxbYC5uU

He can enunciate pretty clearly when he wants to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Kt6siKbzE

Darn- I should have put that one in my first post!

Like Sarge said, though, I see this thread going round in circles. Regardless of whether you like it or not, the fact remains that Bruce has a very strong, powerful voice, it's just not an "operatic" voice like Meat's.

[nikox1]

Bruce surely has a fansite yes? And just to clear up why I brought up the voice thing again= a person said Bruce had as much power in he's voice as meat. It's not a bad thing, it's just meat is basically an opera singer? Trust me he has more power

[MarkS]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Like Sarge said, though, I see this thread going round in circles. Regardless of whether you like it or not, the fact remains that Bruce has a very strong, powerful voice, it's just not an "operatic" voice like Meat's.

I have no issue saying that i am a much bigger Meat fan than i am of Bruce. Personally i have never understood the comparisons as i don't find them all that similar. But, to each their own, if we all liked the same thing then this world would be rather boring

So go enjoy a listen to Wrecking Ball. I'll be over here listening to HIAHB

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by nikox1

Bruce surely has a fansite yes?

Yep, several. And people talk about other artists there all the time. It seemed like some people here (including yourself) wanted to discuss this, so I started the thread.

Originally Posted by nikox1

And just to clear up why I brought up the voice thing again= a person said Bruce had as much power in he's voice as meat. It's not a bad thing, it's just meat is basically an opera singer? Trust me he has more power

OK, if you say so. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

I have no issue saying that i am a much bigger Meat fan than i am of Bruce. Personally i have never understood the comparisons as i don't find them all that similar. But, to each their own, if we all liked the same thing then this world would be rather boring

So go enjoy a listen to Wrecking Ball. I'll be over here listening to HIAHB

Well first off, that was Sarge who said she was going to listen to "Wrecking Ball", not me. But anyway, you are correct- to each their own. And I also think they are different artists, so a direct comparison isn't really valid.

However, on several occasions, people have asked why Bruce is considered "the second coming" and "a saint" (or what have you), and they feel that Meat doesn't get enough respect. So, I pose the question of why people think that is, and no one gives any opinions. I think that's a more interesting discussion, personally.

[MarkS]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

However, on several occasions, people have asked why Bruce is considered "the second coming" and "a saint" (or what have you), and they feel that Meat doesn't get enough respect. So, I pose the question of why people think that is, and no one gives any opinions. I think that's a more interesting discussion, personally.

In the states, Bruce is a total media darling. In fact they all seem to bend over backwards to kiss his ass.

Meat has always been a dark horse in the US media and seems to have to fight for whatever scraps he can get, like Huckabee, which you don't watch unless you are a hardcore conservative Christian.

I will concede that Bruce's songs tend to be more radio friendly. A 3.5 minute semi catchy diddy is easier to get over the air than an 8 minute epic journey. But Meats newer and more radio friendly stuff doesn't seem to get any air play. Bruce could record himself crapping in a bucket and stations would clammer to play it.

Why is Bruce treated like a saint, i have no idea, but i can say that i do not feel that he deserves said treatment.

[nikox1]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Yep, several. And people talk about other artists there all the time. It seemed like some people here (including yourself) wanted to discuss this, so I started the thread.



OK, if you say so. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

im not trying to disagree with you at all!! im just responding to state a fact!! this is not an opinion. if you like bruces voice, how he dances, how he smiles etc etc,, thats great. i think he a great talent. seen him live etc etc,,. i just responded to the comment - he has as much power as meat in hes voice. he does not, i agree when you agreed meat has more range. but its not opinion in my view? meats voice is more powerful!!, thats not taking away from bruce in anyway. as i said you may like bruces voice better? thats your choice, cool. but if someone says to me britneys voice is as strong as beyonces? well the fact is its not!! i could maybe like [ for some strange reason ] britneys voice better? thats my view, but i would not say its as good or more powerful.

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by nikox1

Bruce surely has a fansite yes? .....

I have been asking myself that same question. I am assuming that Bruce does have his own fan site? Last time I checked this was supposed to be a fan site for Meat Loaf. Hard to tell sometimes, since lately Bruce Springsteen seems to get mentioned more that Meat.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

In the states, Bruce is a total media darling. In fact they all seem to bend over backwards to kiss his ass.

I have yet to see one concrete example of this- an interview, article- anything. I'm curious as to where you live, as to where you are seeing this. I think there is a lot of perception out there that just isn't true.

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

Meat has always been a dark horse in the US media and seems to have to fight for whatever scraps he can get, like Huckabee, which you don't watch unless you are a hardcore conservative Christian.

Meat just did the Jay Leno show- I'd hardly call that "scraps".

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

I will concede that Bruce's songs tend to be more radio friendly. A 3.5 minute semi catchy diddy is easier to get over the air than an 8 minute epic journey. But Meats newer and more radio friendly stuff doesn't seem to get any air play. Bruce could record himself crapping in a bucket and stations would clammer to play it.

Again, wrong, at least where I live. I have yet to hear any of the new songs on the radio. The classic rock station may play "Born to Run" or "Glory Days" once in awhile, but that's about it. There's some conjecture that he gets so little airplay because Clear Channel, which owns a large number of US radio stations, doesn't agree with Bruce's politics. He hasn't gotten widespread radio play since the '80's.

Originally Posted by nikox1

im not trying to disagree with you at all!! im just responding to state a fact!! this is not an opinion. if you like bruces voice, how he dances, how he smiles etc etc,, thats great. i think he a great talent. seen him live etc etc,,. i just responded to the comment - he has as much power as meat in hes voice. he does not, i agree when you agreed meat has more range. but its not opinion in my view? meats voice is more powerful!!, thats not taking away from bruce in anyway. as i said you may like bruces voice better? thats your choice, cool. but if someone says to me britneys voice is as strong as beyonces? well the fact is its not!! i could maybe like [ for some strange reason ] britneys voice better? thats my view, but i would not say its as good or more powerful.

nikox, dude, I'm not trying to fight with you, believe me. But, you could say the moon is made of green cheese and state that it's a fact, that doesn't mean I have to think you're right. And in this case, I don't think you're right. I'm talking purely the lung power behind the voice. I've even seen (but unfortunately can't find the quote) Bono quoted as saying that he can't believe how LOUD Bruce can sing. You can't do that with a weak voice. THAT is a fact. To say that Bruce ALSO has a powerful voice doesn't mean that Meat doesn't.

As to Bruce's dancing, have you SEEN that rehearsal tape for the "Dancing in the Dark" video? I love the guy, but he dances like a white boy.

Britney versus Beyonce? Well, I'd say I think Beyonce is a better singer than Britney, although Tina Turner wiped the floor with Beyonce (both singing and dancing) a few years ago on some awards show (Grammys, I think). So did Jennifer Hudson in "Dreamgirls"; sorry, but Beyonce doesn't impress me all that much. She is pretty to look at, though.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

I have been asking myself that same question. I am assuming that Bruce does have his own fan site? Last time I checked this was supposed to be a fan site for Meat Loaf. Hard to tell sometimes, since lately Bruce Springsteen seems to get mentioned more that Meat.

This thread is also in the "Other Rock and Roll Heroes" section of the forum, so if you dislike the posts so much, you can simply choose not to read it.

[MarkS]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

This thread is also in the "Other Rock and Roll Heroes" section of the forum, so if you dislike the posts so much, you can simply choose not to read it.

But what we do have to read is when Saint Bruce gets crow bared into practically every thread on the forum in one way or another. This thread in itself started as a hijack of the production thread

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

This thread is also in the "Other Rock and Roll Heroes" section of the forum, so if you dislike the posts so much, you can simply choose not to read it.

It's not just in this thread. it has been done in other threads as well. It is a pattern. It is bad enough to have the comparision at all. IF it is done in a respectful manner that I can tolerate. I would even call myself a Springsteen fan. IT has gone on for so long to is becoming disrespectful to the artist that this fan site is supposed to be for. It is even worse that there are people on a Meat Loaf site that are saying how much better Springsteen is. If you are no longer a fan of Meat Loaf then simply leave HIS fan site and leave it to those that are still fans. I am expressing MY opinion. YOu don't have to like it either and you don't have to agree with me. I know I am not the only one that feels this way. Most of the other people that feel the same way have been too disillusioned and disgusted by this site becoming a quasi Springsteen site to even bother posting about it. I was simply bothered by it enough to express MY opinion which I know is shared by others. I wonder what would happen if I went on a Springsteen site and started saying how much better Meat Loaf was than Bruce? First of all, hopefully, his legion of fans would jump on me pretty quickly. That I would expect. Second of all, I hope that the moderators of the site would shut down the disucssion pretty quickly. Yes, I am going THERE. There are very few fans on here truly defending Meat in this discussion. WHY? Cause the majority of them are too disgusted and fed by the whole thing to speak out. They know they will only be put down for defending the very person this site is supposed to be for. Again, this is just MY opinion. I felt that this thread was the most appropriate place to express it. You don't have to agree. You can certainly DISLIKE it. You can attack it all you want. As a member of this forum, I should have the same right to express my thoughts as everyone else.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

It's not just in this thread. it has been done in other threads as well. It is a pattern. It is bad enough to have the comparision at all. IF it is done in a respectful manner that I can tolerate.

I might point out that the first person to bring Springsteen up in the most recent thread was Paul Crook. As far as respectful, I don't think I've seen anyone being disrespectful. It seems to me that even my little back-and-forth with nikox1 has been good-natured; if he feels otherwise, then I apologize.

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

It is even worse that there are people on a Meat Loaf site that are saying how much better Springsteen is.

Again, where are people saying that?

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

I wonder what would happen if I went on a Springsteen site and started saying how much better Meat Loaf was than Bruce? First of all, hopefully, his legion of fans would jump on me pretty quickly. That I would expect. Second of all, I hope that the moderators of the site would shut down the disucssion pretty quickly. Yes, I am going THERE.

Mods? What mods? OK, we have one, and even that was a recent development. And it takes a LOT before threads are shut down, and it's NEVER about people discussing their opinions about other artists. In fact, the "other artists" section of the site is the only place where people don't fight. Please, do check out the Springsteen fanboards. You might be shocked by what is "tolerated" over there.

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

There are very few fans on here truly defending Meat in this discussion. WHY? Cause the majority of them are too disgusted and fed by the whole thing to speak out. They know they will only be put down for defending the very person this site is supposed to be for.

Again, who is putting anyone down here? I have not heard any complaints from the mods, although, I suspect now I will.

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

Again, this is just MY opinion. I felt that this thread was the most appropriate place to express it. You don't have to agree. You can certainly DISLIKE it. You can attack it all you want. As a member of this forum, I should have the same right to express my thoughts as everyone else.

Where have I "attacked" anything or anyone? Frankly, "disliking" a post is meaningless to me. I simply don't read what I'm not interested in.

[nikox1]

Well a fact is a fact!! It does not matter what your own opinion is to be fair? I am a 15 times chess champion = just an example haha!! I don't play chess. At the end of the day it does not matter what you think? The FACT remains I am a 15 times champion? I can clearly hear and have witnessed that meat pound for pound is a better vocalist. He has more range and power. The is an opera singer near enough? So there is no argument?

[allrevvedup]

I understand that people having an opinion but I really do dislike the whole which singer/band is better.

How do we judge this? because in all honesty if you want to go by album sales then some pretty rubbish pop acts could be considered to be better than some classic artists that have been around for years.

I think the E Street Band members that played on Bat 1 will always mean there is a connection to Bruce Springsteen, add to the fact that Jim Steinman obviously took a lot from Bruce's work when creating Bat, Bad For Good and some of Dead Ringer and you have the obvious crossover.

I don't see why it's so terrible to contemplate talking about another artist on a Meat Loaf forum and to be honest I also do not see how it hurts Meat Loaf. I'm sure the likes of Gaslight Anthem would be happy enough to have fans of another artist come across and listen to them because of similar styles?

Musicians constantly have different influences and while i'm not going to say I'm a huge Springsteen fan; I can safely say that I can appreciate what he does and know what I like of his work.

Ever since the days of the supposed 'war' between the Beatles and The Rolling Stones, some people perceive that there has to be a rivalry between musicians when 99 times out of 100 it doesn't exist at all.