The Bruce/ Meat Discussion

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

But what we do have to read is when Saint Bruce gets crow bared into practically every thread on the forum in one way or another. This thread in itself started as a hijack of the production thread

I agree with you 100%. Thank you for making that point much more clearly than I did.

[robgomm]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Meat isn't really a songwriter

Actually if you read his interviews you will see him confessing that does do a LOT of the writing of his songs, he just doesn't take credit for it.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by nikox1

Well a fact is a fact!! It does not matter what your own opinion is to be fair? I am a 15 times chess champion = just an example haha!! I don't play chess. At the end of the day it does not matter what you think? The FACT remains I am a 15 times champion? I can clearly hear and have witnessed that meat pound for pound is a better vocalist. He has more range and power. The is an opera singer near enough? So there is no argument?

I'm not arguing. Something like winning a chess championship is measurable objectively; stating someone is a better vocalist is not- it's subjective. As I was trying to point out, there are many different means by which to judge a performance. You are, in fact, presenting your opinion as FACT. Whatever- it's cool.

Originally Posted by allrevvedup

How do we judge this? because in all honesty if you want to go by album sales then some pretty rubbish pop acts could be considered to be better than some classic artists that have been around for years....

Exactly, which is why I don't care much about album sales.

Originally Posted by allrevvedup

I don't see why it's so terrible to contemplate talking about another artist on a Meat Loaf forum and to be honest I also do not see how it hurts Meat Loaf.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Burkehaolic

But what we do have to read is when Saint Bruce gets crow bared into practically every thread on the forum in one way or another. This thread in itself started as a hijack of the production thread.

Right- I'm the one who started it so as to not "pollute" that thread any further. I read plenty of threads on the forum where he's not mentioned at all, so this is an exaggeration.

And as far as "crow barring" Bruce into places, why does Meat seem to mention Springsteen in pretty much every interview he does these days?

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by robgomm

Actually if you read his interviews you will see him confessing that does do a LOT of the writing of his songs, he just doesn't take credit for it.

What Meat says that he does is more akin to arranging, IMO. Writing a song means to come up with the original melody and/ or lyrics, such that it's an original composition. If he's doing that and not taking credit, then he's cheating himself.

[duke knooby]

whatever happened to tolerance?

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

I'm not arguing......

For somone who isn't arguing, you seem to respond to almost every post that doesn't agree with you and point out the flaws in other peoples thoughts and opinions. That to me is being argumentative.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

And as far as "crow barring" Bruce into places, why does Meat seem to mention Springsteen in pretty much every interview he does these days?

That is a completely FALSE statement. Meat mentioned Bruce in ONE inverview lately. That is definitely not every interview. "Perhaps Meat is following in the footsteps of some of his fans. Since several of his fans here seem to be so obsessed with Bruce..." In case you don't get it, that comment is meant to be sarcastic. And unlike you, I truly am not going to get into an argument. Not of all my posts have been directed at you. I was expressing my general thoughts and opinions as to how I feel Bruce Springsteen has taken over this forum. To show that I am truly not going to argue, I am done responding to you

[MarkS]

Originally Posted by duke knooby

whatever happened to tolerance?

Problem is, tolerance is a two way street

[MarkS]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

That is a completely FALSE statement. Meat mentioned Bruce in ONE inverview lately. That is definitely not every interview. "Perhaps Meat is following in the footsteps of some of his fans. Since several of his fans here seem to be so obsessed with Bruce..." In case you don't get it, that comment is meant to be sarcastic. And unlike you, I truly am not going to get into an argument. Not of all my posts have been directed at you. I was expressing my general thoughts and opinions as to how I feel Bruce Springsteen has taken over this forum. To show that I am truly not going to argue, I am done responding to you

Perhaps she was exaggerating in much the same vein as she accused me of doing

[duke knooby]

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

Problem is, tolerance is a two way street

why so?

completely off topic of course, but i'm interested

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by allrevvedup

Ever since the days of the supposed 'war' between the Beatles and The Rolling Stones, some people perceive that there has to be a rivalry between musicians when 99 times out of 100 it doesn't exist at all.

Five days of bands, hundreds of venues from morning till night, and no one really hardly agrees on anything in pop anymore. There is no key note, I don't think. There is no unified theory of everything. You can ask Einstein. But you can pick any band, say KISS, and you can go, "Early Theatre Rock proponents, expressing the true raging hormones of youth" or "They suck!"

You can go, Phish, "Inheritors of the Grateful Dead's mantle, brilliant center of the true Alternative community," or "They suck." You go, "Bruce Springsteen, natural–born poetic genius off the streets of Monmouth County, hardest – hardest working – hardest working New Jerseyian in show business, voice of the common man, future of Rock and Roll!", or "He sucks. Get the ~~~~ out of here!"

You could pick any band, and create your own equation. It's fun. There was even a recent book that focused on the Beatles and decided, you got it, they sucked.... -Bruce Springsteen, SXSW Music Festival Keynote Address

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/ne...#ixzz1uyxDHaJY

[MarkS]

Originally Posted by duke knooby

why so?

completely off topic of course, but i'm interested

Going off topic has never stopped us before lol

This is my thoughts on tolerance:

a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.

With that said, I have no issues with any other groups of fans or the person(s) that they represent. The Brucie Brigade are free to be the uber fans that they are, but I want that same respect and opportunity to be presented to me when I am uber Meaty fan mode.

I come here to learn about Meat and his goings on, and to have discussions about his career and plans, what I don't want is to have the vast majority of these conversations derailed by a pointless Bruce/Meat comparison. I would not go over to a Springsteen forum and bring up Meat in every thread that I went on, I would simply discuss Springsteen, and when I wanted to talk about Meat, I would come back here.

I am tolerant of all fans, races, creeds, colors, religions, and sexual orientations. All I want is that same respect and attitude in return. Some people are not capable of the tolerance level that I possess.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

For somone who isn't arguing, you seem to respond to almost every post that doesn't agree with you and point out the flaws in other peoples thoughts and opinions. That to me is being argumentative.

No, I could just keep hitting the "dislike" button. How is saying "We agree to disagree" being argumentative? I'm not pointing out flaws- a discussion involves different points of view. Again, I thought nikox and I were having a bit of fun.

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

That is a completely FALSE statement. Meat mentioned Bruce in ONE inverview lately. That is definitely not every interview.

OK, perhaps every interview is an exaggeration, but it's definitely more than one.

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

Going off topic has never stopped us before lol

This is my thoughts on tolerance:

a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.

With that said, I have no issues with any other groups of fans or the person(s) that they represent. The Brucie Brigade are free to be the uber fans that they are, but I want that same respect and opportunity to be presented to me when I am uber Meaty fan mode.

I come here to learn about Meat and his goings on, and to have discussions about his career and plans, what I don't want is to have the vast majority of these conversations derailed by a pointless Bruce/Meat comparison. I would not go over to a Springsteen forum and bring up Meat in every thread that I went on, I would simply discuss Springsteen, and when I wanted to talk about Meat, I would come back here.

I am tolerant of all fans, races, creeds, colors, religions, and sexual orientations. All I want is that same respect and attitude in return. Some people are not capable of the tolerance level that I possess.

Bravo well said. This site is about Meat Loaf - to support him and get info on HIS career. We have this thread comparing Bruce to Meat in which some people are coming out in favor of Bruce on a Meat Loaf fan site. Again if you are that much of a Bruce fan and not really for Meat, take it to the Springsteen fan site and leave the Meat fan site to the Meat fans. We also have a thread discussing Bruce's Wrecking Ball album. Then we have a thread regarding Bruce's upcoming concert tour. And this discussion actually started it in the Paul Crook's thread about Production. Even Paul's thread was initially hijacked to discuss Bruce. There is also another thread that I can't think of at the moment which is about Bruce. So we discussing Bruce's music, Bruce's album and Bruce's concert tour here. WHY? I can't answer why the endless discussions of Bruce. This site is supposed to be a MEAT LOAF FAN SITE after all.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

With that said, I have no issues with any other groups of fans or the person(s) that they represent. The Brucie Brigade are free to be the uber fans that they are, but I want that same respect and opportunity to be presented to me when I am uber Meaty fan mode.

I think that's a fair point. I don't recall seeing anyone's post about admiring Springsteen's performances, or great vocals, or stage presence being dismissed as worshipping him, or being unable to exercise any objectivity.

It really doesn't bother me who is discussed, nor how positive the discussions are on any artist in Other Rock'n'Roll Heroes. I'm not particularly a fan of Springsteen, and wouldn't dismiss any posts that extol his work or are full of praise for a performance. I agree that comparisons are a bit pointless .. Meat makes no claims to be an original songwriter, nor a talented musician. Nor does he need to be either of these things. He knows how to select and alter a song to make it brilliant, has a team of the most talented rock musicians in the business working with him, and can plan, design and execute a live show that is second to none.

He is simply a great performer in his own right, can still deliver amazing vocals and put together a spectacular show, and is one of a kind. In the Meat Loaf sections of this forum I expect to see posts which also express those sentiments, and which are not dismissed as biased, naive or hero worshipping. He is the Rock'n'Roll Hero whose name heads every page here, so fulsome praise of his work, if that IS hero-worshipping, is not misplaced .. he IS the hero of this site and forum

Caryl

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

With that said, I have no issues with any other groups of fans or the person(s) that they represent. The Brucie Brigade are free to be the uber fans that they are, but I want that same respect and opportunity to be presented to me when I am uber Meaty fan mode.

How are you not being afforded that?

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

I come here to learn about Meat and his goings on, and to have discussions about his career and plans, what I don't want is to have the vast majority of these conversations derailed by a pointless Bruce/Meat comparison.

It's far from the vast majority.

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

I would not go over to a Springsteen forum and bring up Meat in every thread that I went on, I would simply discuss Springsteen, and when I wanted to talk about Meat, I would come back here.

For the most part, I try to keep my discussions about Bruce, or anybody else, to this part of the forum. I might talk about him here because there are other people on this board who are also fans of his whom I like to talk to that may not belong to the other boards I am on. I can't help it if somebody else brings him up elsewhere on the board.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

We also have a thread discussing Bruce's Wrecking Ball album. Then we have a thread regarding Bruce's upcoming concert tour. And this discussion actually started it in the Paul Crook's thread about Production. Even Paul's thread was initially hijacked to discuss Bruce. There is also another thread that I can't think of at the moment which is about Bruce. So we discussing Bruce's music, Bruce's album and Bruce's concert tour here. WHY? I can't answer why the endless discussions of Bruce. This site is supposed to be a MEAT LOAF FAN SITE after all.

Those threads were started in the off topic section of the board. It's my understanding that it's allowed to post such things there. And, I repeat, it was Paul who first brought him up in that other thread.

Originally Posted by CarylB

I think that's a fair point. I don't recall seeing anyone's post about admiring Springsteen's performances, or great vocals, or stage presence being dismissed as worshipping him, or being unable to exercise any objectivity.

Nor have I, or most people (to be fair, there have been a couple) here dismissed anyone as worshipping anybody.

Originally Posted by CarylB

I agree that comparisons are a bit pointless .. Meat makes no claims to be an original songwriter, nor a talented musician. Nor does he need to be either of these things.

And I said as much, initially. I started a thread again, in THIS section of the board, to talk about a show I saw with other fans of Bruce's who happen to be here. This was posted in that thread:

Originally Posted by Michael Marxen

As much as I am looking forward to see the boss in Cologne May 27 - don`t get why he is rated as the second coming whereas Meat or Jim always had to fight for reputation.

I could interpret that as being provocative. Nowhere in my thread did I mention Meat at all (Seeing as how it was a section of the forum titled "Other Rock and Roll Heroes", I thought that was fine). I initially put it off, but then I thought- fine, you want to talk about it, talk about it. I have no problem with an actual discussion, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But, just because I don't agree doesn't make me argumentative.

[MarkS]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

How are you not being afforded that?

Easy, when myself, and many other people on this forum express our admiration and respect for me we are regarded as worshipers who praise at the foot of Meat's altar. Our opinions are not respected for the simple fact that we like the vast majority of what Meat does. That or some people just don't have enough to bitch about in their daily lives. Meanwhile, certain Bruce worshipers can practically have an orgasm speaking about Saint Springsteen. So there is definitely a double standard that exist here when it pertains to Saint Springsteen.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

It's far from the vast majority.

Highly disagree, Springsteen gets jammed into discussions left and right around here, not saying that you specifically are doing it, but it does happen quite a bit around here. Also, the mods seems to be quicker on the draw to come to the defense of Saint Springsteen and shut down questionable discussions faster than they have for Meat related issues.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

In the states, Bruce is a total media darling. In fact they all seem to bend over backwards to kiss his ass.

Meat has always been a dark horse in the US media and seems to have to fight for whatever scraps he can get, like Huckabee, which you don't watch unless you are a hardcore conservative Christian.

So Bruce is a "media darling". SO WHAT? Do I sense envy and jealousy here? Meat Loaf has repeatedly stated in interviews that he's not in the business for the fame, so neither he nor his fans should have an issue with Bruce getting media attention and gracing magazine covers. Is it Bruce's "fault" that Meat Loaf allegedly does not get enough attention?

It is also not true that Meat rarely appears on TV. I have countless hours of footage of him appearing on TV shows, that many that I'll never manage to watch them all. My collection of Bruce stuff is a joke compared to that. Quantity is not the problem, but choice has been in recent years, in my opinion.

Meat is ambitious, passionate and hard-working but he obviously lacks intuition and skill when it comes to dealing with the media at times - see certain recent events. You also have to keep in mind that Bruce has been with the same record company and the same management for decades. Now look at Meat's career, with all its up and downs, changing partners, the things that lead to the fact the he is more popular in the UK, Germany and the Netherlands than in other countries... It's probably easier to establish yourself in the business and do networking under comparatively stable circumstances and with sufficient, consistent support.

To come back to the "media darling" thing: Being a "media darling" also puts the burden of high expectations on your shoulders and it can be a double-edged sword. Sometimes you might be better off not being one.

Bruce's advantage is that - despite his fame - he still appears to be "a working class hero" (to quote a John Lennon song), a modest likeable guy, someone you can have a beer with - something that appeals to many people and that they can easily identify with. Meat Loaf is rather associated with his stage persona. I can well picture Bruce sitting on his couch in a checkered shirt but when it comes to Meat in a tux and a frilly shirt or the "Elton John" jackets he sports these days - NO WAY! Moreover; Meat has never been regarded as an artist who conveys a particular message or concept. That's not meant to be criticism, he's just a totally different kind of performer. It does not mean that Bruce is "better", it's maybe just easier to relate to a singer/songwriter than to a performer like Meat. Singer/songwriters are more likely to become someone's heroes because people tend not only to admire their performance but also their intellect. There are many people who regard Springsteen as someone who represents their hopes and dreams to a great extent. When he played in front of approximately 200.000 people in East Berlin, it wasn't about just music - it was about freedom.

Anyhow, Bruce being everybody's darling is a myth. There are a lot of people who believe that he's "overrated" (not only die-hard Meat Loaf fans on this forum) and his fans can be very demanding and censorious at times. Considering Meat's way to deal with criticism, he wouldn't endure a minute on a Springsteen fan board. We are extraordinarily kind and considerate compared to that.

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

But what we do have to read is when Saint Bruce gets crow bared into practically every thread on the forum in one way or another. This thread in itself started as a hijack of the production thread

In most cases "Saint Bruce" is brought up by people who feel the need to elaborate on why Meat is better than Bruce* or to complain about Bruce allegedly getting more attention and recognition than Meat. They could as well refer to Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber or the Pope instead but for some crazy reason they preferably pick Bruce.

* The "Production" thread was "hi-jacked" by that - until then any Springsteen references were restricted to my question whether the Springsteen sound on a particular Meat Loaf song was a coincidence or not. As you can see by Paul's response, it was a valid, production-related question - not intended to compare the two artists or to turn the thread into a Springsteen discussion but to understand Meat Loaf's work.

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

This thread is also in the "Other Rock and Roll Heroes" section of the forum, so if you dislike the posts so much, you can simply choose not to read it.

Cut BostonAngel some slack, she's probably just exhausted from clicking the "dislike" button all the time. I wonder if she also feels annoyed by Meat mentioning Springsteen in interviews...

[Sarge]

Damn, about 20 new posts were submitted to this thread while I was typing mine... I better get a drink before I read all that...

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by Burkeaholic

Highly disagree, Springsteen gets jammed into discussions left and right around here, not saying that you specifically are doing it, but it does happen quite a bit around here. Also, the mods seems to be quicker on the draw to come to the defense of Saint Springsteen and shut down questionable discussions faster than they have for Meat related issues.

I agree. And just to prove the point: All the following threads have been started in the past 6 months specifically to discuss Springsteen. With the expection of one all have actually been started in the past 2 months.

The Bruce/ Meat Discussion ( 1 2 3)
Sarge (10 May 2012)

Europe! Are You Ready to Be Transformed?!
Julie in the rv mirror (04 May 2012)

What the heck happened to me? Feels like I've Been Hit by a Wrecking Ball!
Julie in the rv mirror (19 Apr 2012)

Wrecking Ball ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
A Slice Of English (02 Mar 2012)

Bruuuuuuuuuuuceeee!!!! ( 1 2)
Julie in the rv mirror (20 Nov 2011)

And we can't forget this thread: Sticky: PRODUCTION ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
Metal Loaf (31 Mar 2012)
where a passing reference by Paul Crook to Bruce Springsteen developed into a full blown debate about who is the better artist, with several so called Meat fans saying that Bruce is by far the better artist.

Go start that many threads praising Meat on a Springsteen fan site and I guarantee you would be stopped from posting pretty quicky. And rightfully so.

I won't even start on the the countless other threads on this forum where the name is constantly being brought up. Just do a search on the forum for Bruce and you will see the countless threads that come up

Say something against Meat Loaf on his own fan site and that is just expressing an opinion and all opinions are supposed to be welcome, even if you are bashing the artist that the site is dedicated to. Say anything against the artist known as THE BOSS and you are being too critical. Once again, last time I checked the name of the site was the Meat Loaf Fan Club. He should be the one considered THE BOSS of this site.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Sarge

I better get a drink before I read all that

Perhaps a headache pill would have been better.

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Cut BostonAngel some slack, she's probably just exhausted from clicking the "dislike" button all the time. I wonder if she also feels annoyed by Meat mentioning Springsteen in interviews...

Meat mentioned Springsteen in only ONE interview lately. A fact that I have already pointed out earlier. I was using the dislike button to express my disatisfaction with what I was reading. That is exactly what it was there for. I didn't want to get into a war of words. I finally got to a point where I could no longer continue to simply sit back and read what was being said without responding in a more direct manner.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

And just to prove the point: All the following threads have been started in the past 6 months specifically to discuss Springsteen. With the expection of one all have actually been started in the past 2 months.

The Bruce/ Meat Discussion ( 1 2 3)
Sarge (10 May 2012)

In case you haven't noticed: I didn't "start" this thread. The post was split from another thread and in fact intented to express my discontent with the repeated Bruce/Meat comparisons in Meat Loaf related threads because I don't think that you can compare the two. The other threads you mentioned were started in the NON-Meat Loaf area of this website. Believe it or not, there are a couple of members who like Meat Loaf AND Springsteen. (Shocking!)

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

Meat mentioned Springsteen in only ONE interview lately.

You either missed some of his recent interviews (and statements on this forum) or you just don't read / listen to Meat Loaf's words carefully.

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by Sarge

You either missed some of his recent interviews (and statements on this forum) or you just don't read / listen to Meat Loaf's words carefully.

I didn't mention anything about what he said on this forum. How long has it been since he posted here anyway? I know it has been months. Something he posted months ago, I don't call recent. I know of one interview RECENTLY where he mentioned Springsteen. I don't think I have missed any of his recent interviews. The key word here is RECENTLY and what your definition is of that term. Hours, days, weeks, months, years?