How to fix things ...

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by stretch37

I wasn't pointing fingers at any individual here such as yourself Flying Mouse, nor was I directing comments about negativity at you. Actually, nothing I said was aimed at you........

Originally Posted by stretch37

Having said that, Sorry if I upset you Mouse, I wasn't directing anything at you. There is a problem, Meat's upset, I was looking for answers....not trying to point fingers at any individuals but rather at the problem itself

Originally Posted by stretch37

Your reaction to me is a similar reaction to ones you often give Meat. Its like your treating me like a complaining SOB. well thats why Meat left....and that's one of the things I hate about things that get said to me. I was trying to help those who get attacked and upset, and now your just picking me apart for doing so........and the same cycle has started already...

Two out of three ain't bad


Whenever have I treated Meat like a complaining SOB?
I may have said (and I trully believe) that Meat is human and over reacts like a lot of other people on the planet. Now and then he'll explode over something that was never meant to cause offense, and when he's cooled down and realized he's over reacted he's done the right thing and apologised.

In fact, the post i'm refering to where I pointed this out, bluntly posted as it was, received a couple of complaints and it was edited.
That doesn't change the fact it was still proved to be acurate, and Meat has returned to the forum with no hard feelings.

[The Flying Mouse]

And now (rather than just replying to people) some of my own thoughts........

My own feeling is that Meat's presence on the forum can sometimes be a double edged sword (the good outweighing the bad considerably, before anyone jumps on that comment).

There was an old naval rule (not sure wether it's still in force) that the captain was not allowed to dine in the wardroom with the other ships officers unless he was invited.
The reason for this is that the wardroom was a place of relaxation, and the captains presence could have a profound impact on the informal setting of the place.

That's what we have with Meat.

Once upon a time we were a forum of members who came here and shared their thoughts concerning all things Meat Loaf.
It was a very relaxed, friendly, and positive place. Certainly a place free of high running feelings and argument.

Then Meat came and sought us out.
We were pleased, amazed, and honoured that our musical hero came to visit us and talk to us.
Most of us still feel the same.

But his presence here comes at a price (a small one, I hasten to add, compared to the pleasure).
With Meat on the forums emotions run higher. Some are determined to have their say, others are determined to defend Meat against these people.
It leads to fighting.
A lot of fighting.

Meat himself is a passionate man, and when he is upset he reacts, sometimes over reacts, at what he sees as an attack upon himself.

Because for Meat, what is said here is very personal about him in a way few of us can begin to understand.

For instance, how would a baker feel if every loaf of bread he bakes is examined in detail and discussed?

But, as i've said before, I cannot believe that Meat came to see us to tell us what we can and can't think.
I believe that a lot of the people who are attracted to his type of music are not wired up that way.


I am personally disapointed that Paul has looked at the forum and has found us wanting.
I agree that Meat and his band shold have a place to come to where they are given the benefit of the doubt, and even a little lean way now and again.

But I would say to Paul, Meat, and the rest of the band, what you read on these forums is the honest feelings of a portion of the fanbase. It might not always be worded in the best way possible, but for the most nothing is posted with any intention to insult or hurt.

Never make the mistake that beause somebody says something critical you are not respected.

[AndyK]

Originally Posted by R.

Listen folks, I started this thread because Paul asked for it. As of now, I have no intention to close or censor this thread in any way. I'm asking you nicely to keep this thread on topic. If you find something that offends you, either report that post or continue your off topic discussion with private messages. You might even learn something from that private conversation. Thank you.

Just to add to Rainer's request above. Please try to remain open to others points of view and feelings in this thread when both reading and posting in it, and try not to take or post anything too personally. The only way to resolve things is to listen to others opinions and be able to discuss them fairly and honestly.

[duke knooby]

a little humility can go along way

[stretch37]

i think we have to make a choice......Either have Meat here with us and treat him and his band the way they request, or risk them not wanting to come here.

its been years of trial and error, and by no fault of his own Meat continues to be upset by his fan club....

[roomster]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

And now (rather than just replying to people) some of my own thoughts........

(removed most of the quote because of it's length)

Wise words and thoughts Mouse

[Metal Loaf]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

And now (rather than just replying to people) some of my own thoughts........

I am personally disapointed that Paul has looked at the forum and has found us wanting.

But I would say to Paul, Meat, and the rest of the band, what you read on these forums is the honest feelings of a portion of the fanbase. It might not always be worded in the best way possible, but for the most nothing is posted with any intention to insult or hurt.

Never make the mistake that beause somebody says something critical you are not respected.

Hi All,

This is a powerful thread... Some great things happening here. XOXO!!!

Hey FLYING MOUSE... Waaaassssssuuuuppppp????

There's no need to talk to me about a PORTION of the fan base... I mentioned them in my very first post last week. I mentioned that I was thankful that there are some really beautiful people here and I meant it. I know a few of them personally, some great people hang here. MODS included.

Ok, you're personally disappointed with how I view this site... It sucks right? It sucks having someone be disappointed with something you put your blood, sweat and tears into... The BAKER'S BUNS analogy is perfect.

ALLREVVEDUP said:

A more recent example was where someone made a comment which (as far as I can tell), wasn't meant to be taken literally (quantity vs quality), and was in turn attacked. It wasn't an expectation or insult, it was just an idle musing. Considering that, I again don't think was entirely justified.

Sorry, IMO the more recent example is a direct insult.

Maybe I need for a person to finish their idle musing with "that's a joke". Well, unless you're ANDY... He posted a response yesterday, so dry, that I actually laughed out loud.

I don't understand how someone can make a comment which (AS FAR AS I CAN TELL) is a direct attack on my work ethic but I don't have the right to stand up for myself.

I don't understand why anyone would question my reaction.

How should I have responded?

Lastly, I'd like to thank "R." for starting this thread!


P

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Again I 100% agree with Mr. Happy. I was about to add some thoughts but refrained from it. [...]

Anyway, I'd like to thank R. and the mods for all the work they have put in this place. It still is the best place to discuss Meat Loaf related topics. The issues I'm having with it aren't your fault. [...]

You've been doing a great job and created a nice meeting place for Meat Loaf fans. Thank you.

+1

I also agree with Mr. Happy, and I would like to add my thanks as well. I think many things are being done "right" here.

I'd also like to say that I don't feel that Robb did anything wrong, nor does he need to apologize, nor do "we", collectively. I don't know why it bothers me, but it does, that some people seem to feel that they have no right to have an opinion or criticism because they "don't know anything about music, therefore, I was wrong". I'm sorry, but I don't need to be a chef to know that the food is too salty.

I like Mouse's analogy about the ship's captain; as I've said before (and I won't say any more on the matter after this), there is an atmosphere on this board that doesn't exist on other forums (of other artists) of which I am a member. Obviously, I'm still here, so there must be something I like about it (and there are some great people here).

I think the reason we are all here is because we enjoy Meat's work to some extent, but I think what people need to respect (in all directions) is that there are varying levels of "fandom" (for want of a better word- commitment, maybe?), and some people are more emotionally invested in it than others, and that is perfectly fine. Just because some may be less passionate does not make them "haters".

Originally Posted by stretch37

i think we have to make a choice......Either have Meat here with us and treat him and his band the way they request, or risk them not wanting to come here.

its been years of trial and error, and by no fault of his own Meat continues to be upset by his fan club....

I really want to comment on this, and I hope I can express my feelings in the manner which they are intended. So, I guess I am going to just use general terms.

If one wishes to be treated with respect, one treats others with respect. Fear (of retribution) and respect are not the same thing. An attitude of "play my way, or I take my ball and leave" is not, IMO, respectful.

We cannot control how others treat us, or what they say to us. We can, however, control how we respond. I agree with Mouse that IMO, Meat does overreact on occasion, and that "fault" does not lie with us.

[Mr. Happy]

Originally Posted by Metal Loaf

A more recent example was where someone made a comment which (as far as I can tell), wasn't meant to be taken literally (quantity vs quality), and was in turn attacked. It wasn't an expectation or insult, it was just an idle musing. Considering that, I again don't think was entirely justified.

Sorry, IMO the more recent example is a direct insult.

Maybe I need for a person to finish their idle musing with "that's a joke". Well, unless you're ANDY... He posted a response yesterday, so dry, that I actually laughed out loud.

I don't understand how someone can make a comment which (AS FAR AS I CAN TELL) is a direct attack on my work ethic but I don't have the right to stand up for myself.

I don't understand why anyone would question my reaction.

How should I have responded?

Lastly, I'd like to thank "R." for starting this thread!


P

Actually, I said that, not Allrevvedup

I never said you don't have the right to stand up for yourself, and that wasn't even necessarily directed specifically at you. I didn't see that comment as challenging your work ethic, as you put it. I more saw it as one of those circumstances where the intent of the message gets lost because it's difficult to convey properly through a text format. It wasn't meant to be a scathing insult, more...an idle musing We're all fans here (even if some of us go about it in different ways to others), and I don't think anyone here would insult your work ethic just because of it. Which is why it threw me a little when it was torn to shreds the way it was.

I don't know, maybe I'm trying too hard to see the good in people and I'm ignoring the facts because of it. That was just my interpretation of it, and apparently I can't even go back to review that anymore My apologies if I've caused more drama with that line than I should have

[allrevvedup]

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

Actually, I said that, not Allrevvedup

I had to go back through my previous posts to see if I'd actually used the phrase Idle musings...i knew that didn't sound like something i'd say

[Mr. Happy]

Originally Posted by allrevvedup

I had to go back through my previous posts to see if I'd actually used the phrase Idle musings...i knew that didn't sound like something i'd say

To be honest, it's not something I'd normally say either, I just didn't know how else to put it

[Mr. Happy]

Anyway, all I'm saying that everyone is so quick to jump down everyone else's throat. Can't we all just chill out and respect each other?

Is it so hard to see,
That we're all the same machine,
Don't we all live and die,
Under the same Blue Sky?

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Metal Loaf

There's no need to talk to me about a PORTION of the fan base... I mentioned them in my very first post last week. I mentioned that I was thankful that there are some really beautiful people here and I meant it. I know a few of them personally, some great people hang here. MODS included.

I think you have made that clear more than once Paul

Ok, you're personally disappointed with how I view this site... It sucks right? It sucks having someone be disappointed with something you put your blood, sweat and tears into... The BAKER'S BUNS analogy is perfect.

Exactly .. just as the apple pie video during the making of HCTB was perfect too You, like Meat, put so much effort and creativity into the work, to me it deserves respect, and some sensitivity when commenting on it.

Sorry, IMO the more recent example is a direct insult. ..... I don't understand how someone can make a comment which (AS FAR AS I CAN TELL) is a direct attack on my work ethic but I don't have the right to stand up for myself.

I don't understand why anyone would question my reaction.

How should I have responded?

You responded perfectly in my view, and with skill and restraint

I'm left with two thoughts. I find it bizarre that anyone should think it strange that fans of a performer would want a fan site to be wholly positive. And if "criticism" is indeed "constructive", surely the whole point about "constructive criticism" is that it is NOT negative, but positive .. so if people were actually giving their comments, "criticism", opinions etc on Meat's work constructively, (which would include avoiding brief throw-away lines which are likely to sound insulting to those they are aimed at, if one thought before one posted) then the site would be 100% positive anyway.

I can't remember now exactly what I've read to leave me with this impression, but I sensed a questioning of Matt's (I think) suggestion that criticism of Meat on a personal level should be avoided. My view is that Meat's work is up for comment; his work is why we all come here. But criticising his character, his motives, his values, his beliefs enters a whole new field .. one where there is not unlimited freedom of speech without legal constraints, and one which is best not undertaken on a public fan forum. Criticise anyone's core values and they are likely to feel insulted. There's a private message facility if one wants to question these.

Caryl

[AndyK]

Originally Posted by Metal Loaf

Well, unless you're ANDY... He posted a response yesterday, so dry, that I actually laughed out loud.

Humour is just one of the services I provide

Seriously though, I think we all have to remember that Meat's music is incredibly passionate, just like the man himself. That passion is what attracts us to the music and the fans of the music and the man are also all incredibly passionate. Like it or not we're all different but we're also all very similar, just with different viewpoints.

The written word is so much different to the spoken word and much more care has to be taken with it, as you lose the context, the inflection and the facial expression with a chunk of text.

Write your post, stop, think, read it again, think a bit more, edit as appropriate and then press submit. It shouldn't be difficult, yet somehow it is ...

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by AndyK

Seriously though, I think we all have to remember that Meat's music is incredibly passionate, just like the man himself. That passion is what attracts us to the music and the fans of the music and the man are also all incredibly passionate.

Absolutely .. and that passion in Meat isn't assumed, it's genuine and comes from inside, so it's hardly surprising he's sensitive about comments. Paul's passionate about what he does; dismiss the work of passionate people and they feel it.

The written word is so much different to the spoken word and much more care has to be taken with it, as you lose the context, the inflection and the facial expression with a chunk of text.

Written feedback is the most difficult of all forms of feedback. You get no sense of how the person is reading and hearing it, so putting yourself in their shoes as far as you can, and thinking about how they may feel is so important.

Write your post, stop, think, read it again, think a bit more, edit as appropriate and then press submit. It shouldn't be difficult, yet somehow it is ...

Takes time and thought

Caryl

[renegadeangel]

Originally Posted by R.

Listen folks, I started this thread because Paul asked for it. As of now, I have no intention to close or censor this thread in any way. I'm asking you nicely to keep this thread on topic. If you find something that offends you, either report that post or continue your off topic discussion with private messages. You might even learn something from that private conversation. Thank you.

That hits it on the head. Everyone here is here to offer an opinion. Once personal opinions are targeted for not being perhaps appropriate, or not in blunt terms not following the herd mentality, all you have is Chinese authoritism. Is that what is really being suggested here? I hope not.

[Vickip]

Originally Posted by AndyK

Write your post, stop, think, read it again, think a bit more, edit as appropriate and then press submit. It shouldn't be difficult, yet somehow it is ...

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Metal Loaf

Hey FLYING MOUSE... Waaaassssssuuuuppppp????

There's no need to talk to me about a PORTION of the fan base... I mentioned them in my very first post last week.

Sup dude

When I said a portion of the fan base, I actually meant the members here as a portion of the wider fan base (people who are not online or just don't visit here), rather than a portion of the members here
We've got a good size membership I like to think, but we still only represent a small percentage of the concert going and album buying public.

Originally Posted by Metal Loaf

I mentioned that I was thankful that there are some really beautiful people here and I meant it. I know a few of them personally, some great people hang here. MODS included.

The cheque's in the post

Originally Posted by Metal Loaf

Ok, you're personally disappointed with how I view this site... It sucks right? It sucks having someone be disappointed with something you put your blood, sweat and tears into...

Oh yeah, make no mistake about it, it is disappointing when you do the best job you can and don't seem to be achieving what you want or people think you are failing (that's what this thread is about, right? ).
All you can do is take heart, keep doing your best, and accept you cannot please all the people all the time


The way I would describe the position of mlukfc is almost like a frontier town where very different trains of thought collide.
There are some places on the net that are positive/sugar coated/sycophantic (delete according to your particular beliefs) and they are what they are and I have no problem with that.

I can't actually say there are places i'm aware of that are more pro to being critical toward Meat, so i'm getting a bit stuck here , but the people of those places (if they exist, and they don't) and the people of the "nice" places all jump on their horses, ride into town, and here is where it all gets fought out.

So we've got a forum of outlaws, the staff are the law, and then Meat rides in to town, and who the hell is he classed as in our cast of characters?
God?
I've not seen all his films, but i'm pretty damn sure John Wayne never had to deal with shit like that

Sufficed to say, it's not an easy position to be in.

Originally Posted by Metal Loaf

The BAKER'S BUNS analogy is perfect.

Thanks, I like that one myself, and it's really how I see the situation.
For some reason it seems that entertainers are not supposed to have feelings like other people when it comes to their work.

Everything discussed on this forum is very personal to Meat, and to an extent also very personal to you wherever your work is discussed.

I don't believe anyone on this forum has/will ever be in the position you and Meat are in, and so won't be able to fully understand.

It's not a critique of a vocal when Meat reads it, it's a critique of HIS vocal. It's not a critique of guitar work or production, it's a critique of YOUR guitar work or production.

That's got to be an interesting (and not always nice) position to be in.

Out of interest, have you ever had such close contact with the fans at any other time during your career?

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

Just because some may be less passionate does not make them "haters".

I'd add two words to this...............

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

We cannot control how others treat us, or what they say to us. We can, however, control how we respond. I agree with Mouse that IMO, Meat does overreact on occasion, and that "fault" does not always lie 100%with us.

Meat has been known to blow his top on the forum, but sometimes it's been because something has been harsh or unfair. Other times Meat has taken offence to something someone has said in all honesty with no intention to offend and has over reacted.

Fault can't be put just on the fans or just on Meat.
It's a little 50/50 at times, especially when (again) you consider Meats perspective to what's being said.

Originally Posted by AndyK

Humour is just one of the services I provide

Since when?

[Wario]

i think the best way to keep everyone positive is bake chicken parm and dance to meat's loaf's hit song "masculine" :)

seriously, lets get the MLUKFC back to the point when Fire Ball would interact with us on a weekly basis.

Party is still going on!

[melon]

i think the best way to keep everyone positive is bake chicken parm

mmmmm chicken parmy........ yuuuuuum.......

[allrevvedup]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Fault can't be put just on the fans or just on Meat.
It's a little 50/50 at times, especially when (again) you consider Meats perspective to what's being said.

I agree. I think at some stage, in their time here, every person (me included) has posted something that they've later regretted (No, it won't be this post for me)

If there is more respect for opinion then it makes our (mods) job a lot easier and hey we all want that right?!

It's been good to have Mr Crook posting here, some interesting information as well in relation to the production side of things.

[stretch37]

true. fault can't just be placed on the fans or Meat. all of us together make up the atmosphere at the fan club and we are bound to argue at times....to make use of an overused cliche, 'it takes two to tango'.

I still think though that Meat can only do so much, and we as fans will have to decide what we can do to make this place feel more like family, and part of the Meat camp. Or we may risk losing the privilege of Meat & Paul's presence.

[Monstro]

Originally Posted by stretch37

we as fans will have to decide what we can do to make this place feel more like family

Ok, been thinking about my post here for a few days and mentally re-written it so many times it's a joke so I'm just gonna say what this site means to me and how it's changed my life .(that is not an overstatement).

I first joined as a lurker, used it for info only but gradually got drawn into posting and never looked back. I can see what Neil means when he said how he felt about Paul's criticism of the site because I'll defend this place to the hilt, it's given me so much more than a place to gather Meat info. I can recite a virtually endless list of names of people I've met off here and can honestly say that I've made very close friends here (even though I've met Smoggies and Mackems). I've looked back over my pics of meet ups and events over the last few years and god they've made me smile, remember rock for three days in May? SamCat's 40th birthday at the Ibis after a concert? The karaoke night to replace a cancelled Meat gig? Dozens of us at Bath and getting absolutely bloody soaked? The Montana mob at the RAH? Meat's charity football at St James' Park? And the list goes on, I really believe that you'll get out of this place exactly what you put into it.

Changed my life? hell yes. I met my partner here in the days that the chatroom was popular, as a result of us getting together check out this thread for who was known as the forum baby http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthr...hlight=arrival (Jasmine got gifts from all over the world, no joke, we got parcels and envelopes from nigh on every continent) and if I ever pull my finger out and sort it I'll be heading for the third site wedding, yes the third, this place really has changed peoples lives. For me it seems that the growth of facebook has somewhat killed the community side of this site which is sad, seems like we've forgotten that we're all here for the same reason and despite our differences are more than capable of interacting in an acceptable manner.

And now the bit that'll cause uproar, I joined for the info but got drawn into the community, I truly appreciate the fact that Meat and now Paul post here (brilliant Production thread by Paul) but I would be hurt more if my friends didn't post here anymore as over the years I've seen a few leave and not come back, took me a while to appreciate that this site was set up as a site run by the fans for the fans and whilst it's one hell of a bonus Meat posting here I really don't think it's the be all and end all and by saying that it is is detracting from what this site has to offer and the quality of the forum members here.

[Sue K]

Originally Posted by Monstro

Ok, been thinking about my post here for a few days and mentally re-written it so many times it's a joke so I'm just gonna say what this site means to me and how it's changed my life .(that is not an overstatement).

I first joined as a lurker, used it for info only but gradually got drawn into posting and never looked back. I can see what Neil means when he said how he felt about Paul's criticism of the site because I'll defend this place to the hilt, it's given me so much more than a place to gather Meat info. I can recite a virtually endless list of names of people I've met off here and can honestly say that I've made very close friends here (even though I've met Smoggies and Mackems). I've looked back over my pics of meet ups and events over the last few years and god they've made me smile, remember rock for three days in May? SamCat's 40th birthday at the Ibis after a concert? The karaoke night to replace a cancelled Meat gig? Dozens of us at Bath and getting absolutely bloody soaked? The Montana mob at the RAH? Meat's charity football at St James' Park? And the list goes on, I really believe that you'll get out of this place exactly what you put into it.

Changed my life? hell yes. I met my partner here in the days that the chatroom was popular, as a result of us getting together check out this thread for who was known as the forum baby http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthr...hlight=arrival (Jasmine got gifts from all over the world, no joke, we got parcels and envelopes from nigh on every continent) and if I ever pull my finger out and sort it I'll be heading for the third site wedding, yes the third, this place really has changed peoples lives. For me it seems that the growth of facebook has somewhat killed the community side of this site which is sad, seems like we've forgotten that we're all here for the same reason and despite our differences are more than capable of interacting in an acceptable manner.

And now the bit that'll cause uproar, I joined for the info but got drawn into the community, I truly appreciate the fact that Meat and now Paul post here (brilliant Production thread by Paul) but I would be hurt more if my friends didn't post here anymore as over the years I've seen a few leave and not come back, took me a while to appreciate that this site was set up as a site run by the fans for the fans and whilst it's one hell of a bonus Meat posting here I really don't think it's the be all and end all and by saying that it is is detracting from what this site has to offer and the quality of the forum members here.

What a nice post, Michael ... xo

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Monstro

And now the bit that'll cause uproar, ...

I don't see why I agree with Sue, a lovely post You've said how you feel and expressed it in a way that even if I don't feel 100% the same I can relate to what you say, and don't see how it could cause any offence or upset. To value and put cherished friendships forged over the years above all else is real and right.

I don't see Meat and Paul posting here as being a be all and end all either. I didn't, nor would I leave if they were to stop posting. I too see it as a bonus; something rather special which many fan sites don't have, and which I think it would be a shame to lose if all it takes is for everyone to think about their feelings when posting .. and post with as much care as we should when posting to anyone, or about anyone's efforts.

I agree, Paul's thread is a cracker .. and whilst some of it flies over my head without ruffling my parting mostly I find it a fascinating insight into what they put into the disc I eventually get to hold in my hand, and into the shows that delight me

Caryl