Verbal abuse

[kaz]

ummm, what could i say that is intelligent and portrays how i feel after reading this thread?- quite frankly i can't!

i'm upset, angry, annoyed, disappointed and a thousand and one other mixed up feelings that i hoped i would never feel again.
Bullying sucks! i suffered 6 years at the end of verbal bullying and it stinks, there is no need for it and i hoped id never feel it or witness it ever again.

If you belong to this board, you like, love, adore or worship meat. Therefore, we should be united!
However, there is a beginning of a devide appearing and its based on how much you love meat.

Stuff it!

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but there is no need to verbally abuse someone because their opinion differs- a friendly debate is one thing, insults and abuse is another.

please can you all remember why you joined and be friends, there is enough hatred in this world without it being added here.

thanks for letting me have my say
kaz

[CarylB]

ChrissybabezNI wrote:

I agree with what was said about tolerating but that I think should be aimed at the two or three particular individuals who seem to like picking someone out and chipping away and scrutinising every single word that is typed. As far as I can see it has been the same two/three people every time and out of the 700 odd people on this fansite, I think they are the ones who need to understand what TOLERATE is. They seem to have very strong views on how Meat should be supported and how we act and sometimes I can't help but question are they actually fans at all or do they just come on here to provoke?

Absolutely right Chrissybebez .. and I hope this point does not get lost

I just hope they read all these posts and realise that people are on Caryls side here, and in no way is she the one in the wrong as we all have different ways of showing out support for Meat, and as someone quite rightly said, this IS a fansite after all, and its for fans. Please don't take anything I have said to be rude or disrespectful, thats just the way I see things. Chin up Caryl

Thank you :) And you have expressed your view clearly and directly without resorting to abusive language to or about those to whom you refer. It's easy really isn't it! You can do it, I can do it, most people on this board can do it.

As I've said the behaviour of these few doesn't give me sleepless nights .. but it IS rude, it IS unnecessary and should be unacceptable here.. I'm not looking to have anything named after me :) .. just that I and others should be able to expect fair and courteous treatment, and Rainer's post indicates that in future this should be the case. I notice that on another thread some posts, presumably referring to me, and presumably in negative terms, have been removed by Rainer. I see that Mouse has locked that particular thread. I thank them both for taking action.

[original sin]

Originally Posted by kaz

ummm, what could i say that is intelligent and portrays how i feel after reading this thread?- quite frankly i can't!
i'm upset, angry, annoyed, disappointed and a thousand and one other mixed up feelings that i hoped i would never feel again.
Bullying sucks! i suffered 6 years at the end of verbal bullying and it stinks, there is no need for it and i hoped id never feel it or witness it ever again.
If you belong to this board, you like, love, adore or worship meat. Therefore, we should be united!
However, there is a beginning of a devide appearing and its based on how much you love meat.
Stuff it!
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but there is no need to verbally abuse someone because their opinion differs- a friendly debate is one thing, insults and abuse is another.
please can you all remember why you joined and be friends, there is enough hatred in this world without it being added here.
thanks for letting me have my say
kaz

Kaz - my heart went out to you as I read your post as i know your heart went into writing it. Thank you for having the courage to share your experiences and feelings. I have been through hell since before May with what has been happening to my son and this is the first time I have said anything directly and publicly here.

Guppie - you're a luv! Thanks for your kind words.

Caryl - what can I say! Thanks for being there!

[Guppie]

Originally Posted by David M. Driskell

Ya' know, my fave bartender has a chocolate martini as one of her specialties. I cannot watch her make one without thinking of my wonderous Internet friend Guppie. I think I shall have to have one this weekend and toast to level-headedness.
ROCK ON WEB FRIENDS!!!

he he.. you remembered. My favo drink, Martini.
We're in different time zones, so getting drunk at the same time is not an option , he he... '

But you raise your glass and drink, and I'll do the same. ~~~~ the time-difference. Hell... we'll get drunk in cyberspace :P

[kaz]

original sin, thank you for your kind words, bullying sucks but with love and support its easy to get over it....i sufered in silence for 4 of those years because they made me feel as though it was my fault they were bullying me but when i finally spilt it all out to my parents it became easier, love and support are vital!

[CarylB]

Kaz, you said you thought you couldn't convey how you felt intelligently .. well you were wrong there :) I was at school in a gentler time .. our classes were small and the teachers watchful; I didn't experience or observe any bullying .. I was lucky. So when I see adults unable to disagree without resorting to name calling my eyebrows tend to raise up, but it doesn't resonate with me like it must with you. Good that you spoke up then and that you have spoken up now. People will vary in their level of commitment to Meat as an individual .. but no-one deserves verbal abuse because of it.

[kaz]

thanks caryl, i just never feel that you can truely convey how you feel about topic like this, in my case it makes it harder because there are so many bad memories that come flooding back due to it.

[R.]

Originally Posted by ChrissybabezNI

I agree with what was said about tolerating but that I think should be aimed at the two or three particular individuals who seem to like picking someone out and chipping away and scrutinising every single word that is typed. As far as I can see it has been the same two/three people every time and out of the 700 odd people on this fansite, I think they are the ones who need to understand what TOLERATE is. They seem to have very strong views on how Meat should be supported and how we act and sometimes I can't help but question are they actually fans at all or do they just come on here to provoke? Anyway that is neither here nor there. I just hope they read all these posts and realise that people are on Caryls side here, and in no way is she the one in the wrong as we all have different ways of showing out support for Meat, and as someone quite rightly said, this IS a fansite after all, and its for fans. Please don't take anything I have said to be rude or disrespectful, thats just the way I see things. Chin up Caryl.
:)
Chrissy x

That's NOT what I meant.
Just saying "These 3 are always wrong, they are talking bullcrap. So they should learn what tolerance is." is not much better than posting a rude comment. There are different views on a lot of things in this forum. We all should learn to tolerate and respect them. And having said that, respecting an opinion, even if you disagree wholeheartedly, and saying so is sometimes the better way out of a endless and useless argument. That's what I meant with "a little less could be a little more". Give this a thought.

[ROSIE]

Thank-you R

Rosie

[ChrissybabezNI]

Yip thats a fair enough point, I wasnt here when most of that went on so I dont know the full story, I was just writing how it looked to me

Chrissy x

[CarylB]

I think your vision's OK Chrissy :) I have not used rude abusive terms when responding to people, and nor did you. You simply described what you saw some people doing without applying any negative epithets.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Guppie

We're in different time zones, so getting drunk at the same time is not an option , he he... '

But you raise your glass and drink, and I'll do the same. [...] the time-difference. Hell... we'll get drunk in cyberspace :P

Well, to quote Alan Jackson & Jimmy Buffett....

"IT'S FIVE O'CLOCK SOMEWHERE!!!"

ROCK ON GOOD MUSIC!!!

[Chris]

Originally Posted by David M. Driskell

Well, to quote Alan Jackson & Jimmy Buffett....

"IT'S FIVE O'CLOCK SOMEWHERE!!!"

ROCK ON GOOD MUSIC!!!

In that case David,

Pour me something tall and strong
make it a hurricane
before I go insane.
It's onyl half past twelve but i don't care
It's five o'clock somewhere!

Sorry for being off-topic but this song is now playing ont he cd player and I couldn't resist!

[Guppie]

he he... that's a great quote!
Well, it's 11.15 pm over here, but hey, it's 5 o'clock somewhere, so here's to good music and the joys of life.
Buttoms up.

[PanicLord]

Such powerful thoughts have been so clearly expressed in this thread that I reckon it is time for me to chuck my 50p in (I know it used to be ha'penn'orth or 0.5p, but hey, that was years ago, and 0.5p ain't what it used to be!).

To me, like so many others, the ritual and horrific verbal abuse that CarylB (and occasionally others, EVEN ML himself) has had to put up with is entirely abhorrent (to my knowledge, that's the first time I've ever used that word, and I am appalled to find that it's first outing should be on such a fantastic forum, which main aim is to allow discussion of Meat Loaf and his Music).

I agree 100% that this board should be about tolerance...

That is, tolerance of any OPINION about Meat or his music. On no account however should that mean that anyone should have to put up with horrible abuse.

It doesn't matter how good your English is, or how intelligently you communicate.

All that matters is that the good name of the site is upheld, and not sullied by vicious attacks on regular contributors.

Kudos to the mods / regs or whatever the right word is. R sounds a bit scary but is 100% right. Whatever you think of SueW's words, the intent behind closing that thread was clearly right, and all manner of flying mice get my vote too. Lets hope these clear signals, and follow up action, discourage the people who waste their time and ours by attacking people rather than discussing opinions.

Meat has had a stressful year to say the least. Let's get back to celebrating Meat and his work. Fan is indeed short for fanatical, and there is no harm in being a fan. That's not to say you have to be as devoted as Caryl, everybody supports Meat in their own little way. But that does not make Caryl's way wrong.

I'll let you in to a secret, that I have not told very many people at all about.

I was bullied verbally by many people all through primary and high school, for several reasons. There was a tramp in town with the same name as me. I never wore trendy clothes. My name is Simon. I was very skinny.

It hurts like hell.

But it makes you tougher. I'm glad to see that Caryl is tough as nails against the bullies that threaten this site with closure through putting off other genuine visitors (and that is NOT abuse - it's a complement to Caryl).

In fact, I myself went too far the wrong way into toughness and ended up hurting people with my own verbal abuse.

Every time I think about that now I hang my head in shame, and I wish that it could be undone. But it can't.

The only way to prevent the hurt is NOT TO DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Please - whoever is responsible - stop. It doesn't help, and the vast majority of people at this site do not support abuse in the slightest.

I have changed my ways. Meat always says that all he ever wants to do is become a better person. Well, ICHSIBM. I recommend it to any bully who takes the easy, cowardly, option by hiding behind an internet connection and a keyboard. The hurt still hurts. I KNOW.

Goodnight my friends. I am not leaving this site. I truly believe that we are extremely lucky to have this site, AND visits from Meat Loaf.

And I will support anyone who has abuse levelled at them, for what my support is worth.


Love, S.

[Deb]

Not sure if i'm right, but i'm reading the "tolerate" bit as meaning, we should all tolerate on both sides. Think a lot of people are seeing it as it's meant only for the ones who are hurling abuse. Everyone should have an opinion and people forever being critised for it, makes for a lot of people not posting how they feel for fear of being critisised. I know I for one have gone to hit the reply button a lot lately and thought better of it after seeing how my posts may be read by some people.

Deb

[Dave]

Originally Posted by sultonfan

Not sure if i'm right, but i'm reading the "tolerate" bit as meaning, we should all tolerate on both sides. Think a lot of people are seeing it as it's meant only for the ones who are hurling abuse. Everyone should have an opinion and people forever being critised for it, makes for a lot of people not posting how they feel for fear of being critisised. I know I for one have gone to hit the reply button a lot lately and thought better of it after seeing how my posts may be read by some people.

That is exactly what I mean Deb! It is a damned shame anyone should be even the least bit hesitant to say anything they please around here. I have seen people raked through the coals by groups of others just for stating an opinion.

ROCK ON FREE SPEECH!!!

[PanicLord]

David said:

ROCK ON FREE SPEECH!!!

ICHSIBM!!!

[Deb]

Originally Posted by David M. Driskell

That is exactly what I mean Deb! It is a damned shame anyone should be even the least bit hesitant to say anything they please around here. I have seen people raked through the coals by groups of others just for stating an opinion.

ROCK ON FREE SPEECH!!!

Yep it is a shame people have to feel like that, but they do. Free speech would be a wonderful thing

BTW I come into your catagory 1 and am proud of it

[sharon1248]

I have been following this thread with interest because it seems to be a common complaint on all forums that are on the internet. I have been impressed with the comments here & the good common sense shown by all. The consensus seems to be is that while honest differences of opinion are expected & even welcome...name-calling , finger pointing & rudeness are out of place here. The tough part is knowing that it will happen again & again. People Will lose their temper & say something int e rmper [SORRY my silly delete button isn't working] in a temper that they wouldn't have usually. The difference is if it is a habit with that paticular person. Then the poor moderators have a problem!

[CarylB]

Thank you Simon for your thoughtful post. It takes a lot to admit one has been the victim of bullying .. and I sense your understanding is due to your own experience. You are in august company for Meat was bullied at school, but not being a "skinny" kid he learned to use his size to stare down his attackers:)

You said:

That is, tolerance of any OPINION about Meat or his music. On no account however should that mean that anyone should have to put up with horrible abuse.

And that is the point. I reserve the right to disagree with people but I do it without hurling abuse. Freedom of speech should never encompass that. And like Meat I see no reason for anyone to tolerate ..."putdowns, Lies and just plain being angry over what I don't know .." He said he didn't need our money .. what he needed was our loyalty .. and he has that from me :)

[tbuck]

Well, I wasn't going to comment here, as this thread was started w/ a quote by me and I said what I had to say. Still think it's valid. Now after 4 pages, I think there have been some interesting things said and I feel compelled to add my thoughts.

Several unpleasant things that happen on this type of forum have been mentioned, i.e. name-calling, verbal abuse, bullying, harassment and what-have-you. As someone mentioned, these happen all over the net, unfortunately. IMO, in the past this site has been one of the most pleasant to visit and free of a lot of that garbage I see elsewhere.

Name-calling/verbal abuse is obviously unfortunate, doesn't belong here, but there human beings here who lose their tempers. That is not an excuse, simply a fact. An isolated incidence or two, does not in itself constitute bullying or harassment, but rudeness. When it continues, that is bullying/harrassment.

However, continual name-calling/verbal abuse is not the only form of bullying/harassment that exists. I've seen other forms here and elsewhere.

When one's posts are continually responded to w/ a superior and condescending attitude...I know better than you (this has happened on many topics) one tends to feel bullied/harassed as well. Debate and sparring is one thing, always having to have the last word is another. No matter how politely it is said, the impression is left that you need not bother to post because the responder knows better than you and can express it better. Leaves one feeling why bother to post if that is the stuff you get in response.

This may sound over-sensitive but I'm talking continual repeated actions like this, going on way longer than the name-calling things which tend to be stopped. I'm pretty sure others here have experienced the same thing.

What I have said involves my opinions of the words used. All JMHO.

It's about the music,
Terry

[MEAT LOAF TRIBUTE]

mmmmmmm i wonder who you are reffering to? well said!

[shadow1000001]

Originally Posted by bruce springsteen

mmmmmmm i wonder who you are reffering to? well said!

CAN THIS PLEASE STOP HERE


There is no need for this to continue. We are all adults here, for the most part, and there is no need to resort to this.


Tbuck, you have brought up a valid point but I feel that I must disagree with you.
This is a forum where people can air their views and opinions. If people feel that some posts are written with a condesending view, well I guess that's their opinion but I don't understand why that would stop people from posting their views.
This is a place where freedom of speech rules and everyone has the right to express their opinions and not be penalized for it. I'm sorry if you feel that you cannot express your views on a topic because you feel that it will be responded to in a condesending way but it should not stop you. Some people have very pointed views and are not afraid to post them. I congratulate those people because it takes alot of self confidence to throw yourself out to the wolves like that. I just wish that I could be that confident and self assured


Maria ~ This is just my opinion

[tbuck]

Thanks for your response Maria,
while we apparently disagree that's in the spirit of discussion I enjoy seeing here.

You haven't walked in my shoes, perhaps I didn't explain it very well. It's not that I won't speak up when I feel the need to. I have just done so, as have you. Congrats...thrown ourselves to the proverbial wolves!

My point was that constant authoritarianism, superiority, are unlikely to encourage free speech, rather they stifle it. While that may be someone's style, the same can be said about those who indulge in name-calling. I find both offensive, and those who try to continually berate others for their opinions more offensive than the occassional name-caller.

You said "everyone has the right to express their opinions and not be penalized for it" and that is exactly my point. Thank you.

T