Verbal abuse

[CarylB]

In another thread tbuck posted:

Life is not bowl of cherries... We all have our crosses to bear.

We are all different and to call a Mod over words? Get over yourselves...

Of course one's perspective tends to get coloured depending on the size of cross one is expected to haul up the Calvary of the forum .. and "words" are precisely what this forum consists of, and what this is all about. In the past few days I have been described as:

demented old bag
sycophantic
unhealthy
sad
having withdrawal symptoms
on my third bottle of gin
witchfinder general
sergeant burton
the thought police
not having a life
raving "psycophantically"
an obsessed lunatic
should be certified
bull shitting
Caryl b (b is for bollocks)
someone who would hound radio stations "like she does" to get a CD of Meat's farts played
using Meat Loaf shower gel and toothpaste
kissing Meat's arse
someone ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ wouldn't piss on were he on fire (this last I am actually thankful for .. :) )

And all of this because I defend Meat, challenge derogatory comments about him (without using abusive language), support him 100% .. I'm a fan, this is a fansite dedicated to Meat .. it's what I do, and in my humble opinion a place where one should be able to do just that, without fear of attack and verbal abuse for so doing.

I don't expect my life to be a bowl of cherries .. indeed it has not been one. However, I see no reason why I should be expected to stand silent and patient while I am consistently abused verbally by a few people for expressing opinions, coherently, articulately and without abusing others, particularly when these opinions are often shared by people who are not attacked in the same way for holding and expressing them.

Shadow recently posted:

Here is something I don't understand. Bruce is saying that his words get twisted and that everyone should watch their posts because of Caryl and her "cronies" yet it seems to me that it's Caryl and her "cronies" who should watch their posts. From what I've seen, everytime Caryl posts or starts a thread, her words are twisted and she is attacked for being a very loyal fan. Some of us are extremely loyal and we are like that in all aspects of our life and that extends into everything we do. I am a very loyal Meat Loaf fan and I am very loyal to all my friends, does that mean I am an a**kisser?

I think she hit the nail on the head. Probably in a few people's eyes this does mean that she is an a**kisser .. the main difference is that she will probably not get called that, whilst I have come to expect that I in all likelihood will. So forgive me if I tire of bearing the cross to which you refer, but also note that I will continue to post in support of Meat.

And if that makes me sad, obsessed and sycophantic .. well I believe I am in good company, and in company whose loyalty to Meat I value and respect ... and frankly I have neither for those who name call and verbally abuse me, or anyone else in this forum.

I do have great respect for a Moderator who makes it clear that such behaviour is not acceptable. As others have agreed, it is unpleasant behaviour, unnecessary and discouraging.

[sharon1248]

Caryl, it seems to me that people feel free to say rotten things in a net forum that they would never say to a person's face. I have wondered if they don't realize that there is another person with feelings on the receiving end of those personal comments. Typing off a mean word or two just doesn't seem to be insulting a real person. If they are talking that same trash in person...bet they spend a lot of time either alone or in bandages.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by CarylB

And if that makes me sad, obsessed and sycophantic .. well I believe I am in good company, and in company whose loyalty to Meat I value and respect ... and frankly I have neither for those who name call and verbally abuse me, or anyone else in this forum.

Well, that having been said, let me say that I personally value and respect all life. What the problem is, and I know this to be a fact, people would rather just give up on strong passions for Meat rather than tread through the sludge of wisecracks and preaching they will endure if they post something that is not 100% in line with some people's beliefs.

There are two obvious schools of thought on this board:

1. People who are all about the Meat Loaf lifestyle
2. People who are all about Meat Loaf

I know for a fact that I fit squarely into a Type 1 personality, and would venture to say that CarylB would fit squarely into a Type 2 personality.

With my theory laid out on the table, let me attempt to lay out the situation as I see it. I will take the statement from Kev that was something to the effect that "Meat Loaf is looking old." Kev is very much a Type 1 personality on this board. Type 1 personalities love the music Meat Loaf makes, they love the projects he is involved with, but can also be somewhat critical of him (if need be).

Kev's critical point was that he believed Meat was looking old, which is a valid point. He never said anything critical (i.e., Meat Loaf looks too old to rock or Meat Loaf looks too old to be singing anymore), all he said was that Meat Loaf looked old at the press conference.

CarylB tends to be a Type 2 personality on this board. The Type 2 personalities tend to love Meat Loaf (the man), would rather chat about what he was wearing during a concert than the set list - they are more about the celebrity known as Meat Loaf rather than everything that surrounds it. (I know this explanation may be a little off, but this is how I see it).

As a Type 2 personality on this board, CarylB took offence to the fact that Kev (Type 1 personality) made the statement that Meat Loaf was looking old and CarlyB defended Meat Loaf by saying something to the effect of "He is 56, so what is your point."

The problem is...A Type 1 versus Type 2 Meat Loaf fan disagreement will always, 110%, without fail, and with absolution end up in a vicious cycle of downward spiral to the "Fight Club."

I know that my discovery of Type 1 and Type 2 personalities has just recently surfaced. I have made a personal resolution to myself that I know nothing productive will ever come of me (a Type 1 personality) disagreeing with any of the Type 2 personalities not only on this board, but also in other places on the Internet and further into the "real life" world of Meat Loaf fandom.

I know there are some things that, as a Type 1 personality, that I come up with that will make Type 2 personality people shiver. I know that some of what the Type 2 personalities come up with make me (as a Type 1 personality) shiver.

Thing is, I am working really hard and asking God everyday for the guidance and wisdom to allow concepts and ideas that the Type 2 personalities come up with to just roll off my back and not get me all in a funk.

As a Type 1 personality Meat Loaf fan, I am standing here to make a public statement of recognition that I am fully aware I have issues in dealing with the differences between my personal beliefs and opinions as a Type 1 personality and the personal thoughts and personal beliefs of the Type 2 personalities in the Meat Loaf universe.

My early New Year's resolution is, to be way more tolerant with this matter, both online and in the real-world.

ROCK ON MEAT LOAF FANS!!!!

[Guppie]

To me, that's not the point. See... I don't care which type or who said what. It's not about persons. e.g. if Meat does it, it's equally wrong.

As long as you're not abusive yourself, you don't deserve to be verbally abused.
I see verbal abuse in a lot of topics. To me, that takes the fun out of it. That makes this forum no longer a nice place to hang out.

I would NEVER accept name-calling on my forum. Never. Unacceptable. It is not giving an opinion, its plain rude.

Now, I'm just a member here, I don't make the rules, but if this name-calling won't stop, I'm gone.

[Jayd]

There should be absolutely no verbal abuse at all on this forum. I work as a guard for the Railways and if any of us are subjected to verbal abuse not just physical, the company I work for presses charges and has the offender prosecuted. It doesn't matter what "TYPE" of Meat fan you are, there is no "TYPE" of fan. I love Meat for his Music and for himself as a whole, and I'm male. Everyone has a right what to say but some go too far. Remeber this is the "Meat Loaf Fan Club" site not the "Lets Have A Pop At Meat" site. If people want to have a go at what Meat sings like, what Meat looks like, what Meat has for breakfast, go and do it somewhere else, cause I don't just think it is just myself who is sick of hearing all these childish remarks. Caryl b is not obsesive, she has a passion for Meat, like most of us in this forum, that's why we are here. We don't just listen to his music and like it, it is something about Meat that we love and like along with his music and acting abilities. That's all for me to say now. And please, no childish remarks and replies from those persistent offenders, because frankly, I don't care what you say.

[Lauren]

[quote="CarylB"]
And all of this because I defend Meat, challenge derogatory comments about him (without using abusive language), support him 100% .. I'm a fan, this is a fansite dedicated to Meat .. it's what I do, and in my humble opinion a place where one should be able to do just that, without fear of attack and verbal abuse for so doing. quote]

Hear, hear Caryl. If people take offence at you showing appreciation for meat - raving about the music, the man himself and so on - why are they here? The word fan is an abbreviation of 'fanatic' - we are fanatical about him and so if they don't want a degree of so-called 'ass kissing' why visit a fan site???

[Guppie]

Well, for me, it's not about that or what kind of fan you are. I like discussions and I don't mind critisism towards Meat if it is just about not liking a show or an album or whatever.
But, the way I read some threads: some critisize just to get a response, to start trouble. Notice I'm saying "the way I read", because this is written text and a mistake is easily made.

My point is the verbal abuse, the name-calling. That is inacceptable for me. I can't keep up with all topics, but the ones I read: anyone can see the name-calling going on. And often directed to CarylB.
And only a few people say something about it.

Me: I'm just fed up with the verbal abuse on the forum. And frankly: I've never been called names here, but if that were the case, I don't think I could be so patient and polite about it as CarylB has.

But I said before: it is not about persons or who it is directed to. Today it's CarylB, tomorrow it could be you. Think about that.

[Tim]

Mmm.... this ain't good. There are a lot of people do that lately. Don't know why.

As for Carylb, the same thing happens to me in Pm's. I'm not closing my mouth for that, not walking away.

CarylB, people who do that are sick. It must be fun on this board, no stuff like this must happen.

Give me the names from those people and i will kick their asses for you!!!

Don't know what we can do about it. The number of members is growing very fast. And i think that lots of people don't know how they must react or act on a forum, maybe that is a problem.

It is hard to see, i admit that. And there is less we can do about it. But don't react on that kind of people, they are not worth it. They are not even worth to run around on this world and act like a ML fan.

The Butcher.

[Guppie]

I was thinking... we have the ignore option of course. That would at least solve your PM probs. But: what about guests, what impression would they get about this forum if they start reading topics and see all this abuse going on.

[mariella]

I do not like abuse in any shape or form. So, ofcourse that includes verbal abuse. To me, it only 'proves' the poster feels 'out of control' and is 'lowering' (is that good English?) her-/himself to this kind of behaviour.
This is just how I look at this. I try not to do this myself, because if I am being abusive towards anyone, I do not feel good about myself.

...I know...Back to Tibet

Great days to all of you,

Mariella

[CarylB]

As long as you're not abusive yourself, you don't deserve to be verbally abused.

Remember this is the "Meat Loaf Fan Club" site not the "Lets Have A Pop At Meat" site.

The word fan is an abbreviation of 'fanatic' - we are fanatical about him

This ain't good .... There are a lot of people do that lately.people who do that are sick. It must be fun on this board, no stuff like this must happen.

As to classification .. I don't think it really matters whether you belong to one of the myriad personality types the human genus actually embraces, or can be reduced to a simple classification that Freud somehow missed, this is about verbal abuse, it is about courtesy or rather lack of it. Those who are not verbally abused by others do not deserve to be abused. This kind of bullying is something to be deplored. It is disgraceful when children are bullied and hounded. The fact that what is being discussed here is perpetrated on the internet and directed at adults who are able to see it for what it is and be disgusted rather than damaged, is neither here nor there imo. Like all bullying it is cowardly, potentially hurtful, and frankly ignorant whether posted publicly or sent under cover of darkness in PMs. In any decent society it is rejected as unacceptable by reasonable people, whatever their personality type.

Caryl (DPhil., MPhil., T&HD)
.. who thinks at times Tim's a lot like Meat: larger than life and twice as loud, and loves him for it :)

[original sin]

Well well well I must thank David for the best laugh I’ve had in ages !
However what we are forgetting here is a basic integrity where a non judgemental approach is required.
Wouldn’t psychology be a simple area if human behaviour fell into two distinct patterns?
My goodness, the likes of Freud, Piaget, Vygotsky, Jung etc would not have need to look any further in their research if things just popped either into box 1 or box 2.

So lets add to this theory and detail the further classification of users here:-

Type 3 - Those with no real interest other than to inflict hurt, pain or dissention

Type 4 - Those who are long term members and are dedicated fans, but who are now afraid to post in serious topics for fear of being subjected to torrents of abuse

Type 5 - Those with a degree of power, and how it is used

Type 6 - Those who hold their own rights and values over and above those of any other users

Type 7 - Those who are able to post in an inoffensive manner

Type 8 - Those who post in an offensive manner

Type 9 - Those where English is not a first language and need some leeway in the interpretation of their posts

Type 10- those with a completely different agenda on a totally different level

Well as you can see folks the arena is open, and whilst I may personally slot someone into a type from
1 - 10 or even unclassified, I would not chose to do so here and now.

Irrespective of any type or classification the REAL issues here are common decency and integrity, and that is what we need to get back to.

Personally I was very pleased to see Diane make a stand yesterday to try to draw a line in the sand with acceptable behaviour and standards, and believe it was a sad event that others then tried to undermine her actions.

MLUKFC need to start listening to members who are saying that they just don’t post in serious topics anymore because of the abuse that is thrown at them, this has been said to me on several occasions now by different members.

[heat]

It's about time this came up for general discussion, but lets just wait and see just how long it takes for this topic to be either locked or moved to fight club......

I've been a member here for just over a year now and to be honest, i'm utterly disgusted at the way some members of this forum have been allowed to get away with what can only be described as a modern day witch-hunt.

Around here it seems to be open season for picking on CarylB, and not a single thing is done about it. Yesterday was the first time i have seen a moderator step in when Caryl has had abuse hurled at her - and all credit to Diane for doing that. It's about time.

I am saddend by the way that Caryl has been treated here - it makes me wonder should i express my opinions fully and frankly as Caryl does, if i would get the same response as well...

I think what annoys me more is the fact that some people seem to think that this kind of abuse and bullying is acceptable. As Sharon has already pointed out - i wonder if these bullies would be brave enough to say in person, face to face, what they are all too quick to say when hiding behind a computer screen. Somehow i don't think so.

This is the Meat Loaf UK Fan Club. This, in my interpretation, means that this is a place to come and participate in because you are a fan of Meat's. This is a place that is supposed to be enjoyable and fun. This isn't a place where abuse and insults should be thrown at a person just because they have expressed an opinion that you don't happen to agree with. Yes, it's fine to have differences - they are what makes this forum fun, but when what is said becomes nasty and hurtful then that is just plain wrong.

Those people who take pleasure in degrading and insuting Caryl should be ashamed of themselves.You know who you are. This is supposed to be a forum where free speach is encouraged, so lets encourage the free speech, and get rid of the bullying and nastiness. I'm not saying that we should all be one big happy family - i know that will never happen, but it would be good if we could be at least nice to one another.

[SueW]

Originally Posted by heat

Around here it seems to be open season for picking on CarylB, and not a single thing is done about it. Yesterday was the first time i have seen a moderator step in when Caryl has had abuse hurled at her - and all credit to Diane for doing that. It's about time.

That is not correct. I know that both R and I have stepped in a few times when this has happened.

http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2518 is one example.

SueW

[Sue K]

Originally Posted by SueW

That is not correct. I know that both R and I have stepped in a few times when this has happened.

http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2518 is one example.

SueW

That trip down memory lane just totally sickened me. What horrible things were said. My stomach is upset reading that thread. Really, I think I may lose my breakfast.

I would like to point out that one of those awful posts I did PM a moderator about and received no reply.

And although I do appreciate Diane stepping in yesterday, I have to think that my public plea was what made that happen. I could not be ignored if I made the plea publicly. I wasn't and, Diane, and again, I appreciate that.

[heat]

Originally Posted by SueW

That is not correct. I know that both R and I have stepped in a few times when this has happened.

http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2518 is one example.

SueW

I don't wish to be argumentative here, Sue, but what you actually did was lock the particular thread. Not once did you condem the verbal abuse that Caryl was given or pull the abusers up about it. I believe your turn of phrase was 'Bickering'.

It seems to me that it's a hell of a lot easier for a mod to lock a particular thread and 'put an end to bickering' then it is to leave the thread open and have to deal with abusive posters.

I would just like to say that my last comment is not directed at anyone inparticular - just an observation in general.

[CarylB]

I think you make a fair point Heat. SueW identified the one occasion when something was said apart from the thread was being locked because of bickering or argument. On that occasion she said "We're all sad that Meat is leaving this board but these kind of posts will just send other people away too. "

Yesterday was the first time I can recall anything being said that clearly labelled what was said about me as being unacceptable. And this kind of abuse has been allowed to continue for quite some time on occasions .. and whilst threads may be locked, this is not the same as coming out and saying clearly and unequivocally that verbal abuse of individuals will not be tolerated here. Yesterday Diane did that .. and I am grateful and respect her for it.

[ROSIE]

ALL BULLYING EITHER OVERT AND COVERT SHOULD BE STOPPED BY ALL PARTIES IMMEDIATELY BULLYING TAKES VARIOUS FORMS AS DO BULLIES.



Rosie

[CarolM]

Im getting fed up on here now , it seems everywhere you go on here lately there are insults, abuse, name calling, arguing all the time, its really depressing me now, i wish everyone would come on here and be nice, i wish Meat could see all this. dont think hed be very impressed, after all this site is for all who love his music and him. Its not a war forum for gods sake, all the insults and arguing are taking the goodness out of this forum. im sorry i do love it here, its just going way over the top now. guys come on lets ALL get on now. , stop all these insults, and the abuse there is no need on here, we should all be one big happy family for Meat , dont forget thats who were here for.

[Sue K]

Originally Posted by Mrs Mouse

Im getting fed up on here now , it seems everywhere you go on here lately there are insults, abuse, name calling, arguing all the time, its really depressing me now, i wish everyone would come on here and be nice, i wish Meat could see all this. dont think hed be very impressed, after all this site is for all who love his music and him. Its not a war forum for gods sake, all the insults and arguing are taking the goodness out of this forum. im sorry i do love it here, its just going way over the top now. guys come on lets ALL get on now. , stop all these insults, and the abuse there is no need on here, we should all be one big happy family for Meat , dont forget thats who were here for.

IMO I don't think Meat would be surprised. He himself has felt the need to come on and defend/ explain himself.

And this has been going on for some time now. I'm sure he's seen bits and pieces in his travels on the forum and he still returns to post.

As for one big happy family? Show me one of those and I'm sure that I'd be viewing a family plot...

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by heat

Around here it seems to be open season for picking on CarylB, and not a single thing is done about it. Yesterday was the first time i have seen a moderator step in when Caryl has had abuse hurled at her - and all credit to Diane for doing that. It's about time.

I don't know if i'm taking this the wrong way , but if the moderators of this board are being asked to justify themselves, then I would like to say that if there are any problems in Loaf Camera Action or Off Topic, they are dealt with.Thankfully there have not been too many problems in Off Topic (and none in LCA).
I watch my forums, and if there is a problem, I will monitor the situation to see wether if what is being said is friendly banter or genuine flaming.If I feel things are going too far, or if I receive an official complaint I will act.
Speaking out as a mod on another forum would be way out of line.Other forums have other mods who are perfectly capable running their forums the way they see fit, and I am not willing to presume to tell them how to do their job.

My opinion is that everyone has the right to their own opinion.Just as everyone has the right to disagree.When people resort to insults they not only make MLUKFC an uncomfortable place to visit, they undermine their own arguments.Making a coherent point with examples is one thing, but acting like a loony will only result in you being treated like a loony.It seems to me that those who throw insults round do themselves harm more than anything else.

It also strikes me that there are those who seem to disagree/agree with certain people on matter of principle.I think this is wrong.I am personally happy to agree with a person on one thing and disagree with them two minutes later on another topic with absouloutly no hard feelings.There is a world of difference between agreeing with a person,and what the person is saying.

[CarylB]

I don't think we need all to agree on everything Mrs Mouse, but this is about whether it's acceptable for a few people to verbally abuse others just because they have a different opinion, or step up and defend Meat.

I too am sure Meat is well aware of what has been going on .. I hope if he is he is equally disturbed. He's made it cler he doesn't expect abuse here, and I don't see him as the kind of person who thinks others are fair game because they are loyal and staunch fans.

I trust you're not suggesting that I should haul the cross around without comment. I have been patient, I have been courteous in my responses. I am rather tired of being the target for the kind of comments I posted at the start of this thread. And it's apparent that I am not the only one to feel it has gone too far and for too long.

And Mouse, I agree with everything you say. However, as a particular target I don't see the need to bear abuse repeatedly without comment, nor accept it as a cross I should bear. Like Meat, I have come to the point where enough's enough.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Mrs Mouse

stop all these insults, and the abuse there is no need on here, we should all be one big happy family for Meat ,

EXACTLY!!! This is what I tried to say last night. Maybe, if you feel the need to lash out about something, you should take the time to evaluate the messenger and where they generally stand on issues, then react accordingly. I have do this with the crazy news casts all the time - take into consideration what station I am watching before I accept and move on or decide to fire off an e-mail about what I just saw. Name calling never accomplishes anything. Just take a moment to consider the source when reacting to a situation.

ROCK ON MEAT LOAF FANS!!!

[R.]

First things first:
Starting a post in here and pondering about how long it will take to get locked or moved isn't the best way to start off.
I'll decide later if I'll do that and or not and that's not your business at all.

I agree that that one comment made in the now split thread crosses the line and I'm not tolerating this.
Next one to post a comment like this will get his/her account suspended for one week.
If that doesn't help - next time that person get's banned. I hope that is clear enough.

Then again, you all should learn to tolerate other people's opinions, even if you do not like it at all.
It simply doesn't make any sense to argue again and again in order to convince your opponent.
We all have seen that this does not work. Having said that, a little less could sometimes be a little more. Give this a thought please.

[CarylB]

Thank you Rainer. I trust that the comments I listed at the beginning of this thread fall under the umbrella of your warning.