Kasim Sulton online chat synopsis (Copyright discussion) - Page 3

R. · 27 Jan 2004, 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadAttitude

R.

I don't mean to seem like I am draggin things out and I have nothing to win or lose either way in this as I am not friends with either of the two involved in this matter, it's just that the thread has been hijacked by nothing but arguing over a matter that should have been settled by the two individuals in question and I was just pointing out that as a Meat Loaf fan that I prefer to read post's about Meat and the band and not arguements that should be settled in private.

That's exactly what I think.

Now, what was that chat about anyway?

Vickip · 28 Jan 2004, 01:02

In response to R ... yes I feel very badly about the way this was handled.

A while back I asked SueW if she minded if I posted information from her site on the ROL list .... and she said she had no objections. I assumed that it would be ok this time as well .. and unfortunately, I assumed incorrectly.

SueW has every right to say that things cannot be posted from her website .. and as soon as she told me this in a PM I agreed and assured her that it would not happen again. However, it was not necessary to post this on a public forum, and everything in this thread has followed because of that.

As I said before, I tried for at least 15-20 minutes to get into the chat, and was unsucessful. I've heard I'm not the only one ... which is something you may want to think about in the future

If I had been successful, I would have gladly taken my own notes so as to have a transcript of the Meat Loaf related information to pass on to our ROL mailing list (since that's what it's all about). There are a lot of people on our mailing list who do not have as much free time as I do, so yes, I scout out any Meat Loaf related news and pass it along to them.

And as far as my bringing David's thread to Meat's attention .....

Meat has opened a line of communication with his fans, such as myself, here on the forum, and for that I'm very grateful. There are a lot of threads posted here, and given Meat's grueling schedule, he doesn't have the time to look at everything. So when David raised his concern about his Ohio concert, I brought the thread to Meat's attention .... it was Meat's decision to post a response, not mine. Quite frankly, I get the feeling Meat listens to me ..... so if I see something I think he should know about, I'm not afraid to point it out to him.

This is my last post on this thread .... so to Sin, Rick & BadAttitude I say thank you for the support. To Caryl, I say thank you again for your support .. and I'm truly sorry how this has escalated and how it has affected both you and the other members of the ROL mailing list. And to all your comments above, I Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself.

Vicki

Pudding · 28 Jan 2004, 01:12

At the end of the day who really gives a shit? and if you do why?

There's no one here who hasn't broken Copyright law in the past, you know all them bootlegs and video recordings, demo's, downloading of songs, even the ones from private websites etc etc etc. That's all copyrighted but I bet the old conscience wasn't clicking into place then.

Personally if I were Kasim I wouldn't really care who read what, where or when, I'd just be thankful that the masses are reading it.

Pud:o]

Rabe · 28 Jan 2004, 08:24

What I'm finding interesting is all the armchair lawyers around here bandying around what is and what is not copyright.

Di the original post violate a copyright?

I've no idea, I didn't see it. But here's a few questions:

Did the poster take the information and make it seem as if it were her's in direct violation of the facts at hand?

Will the creator of that information stand to lose anything financially?

Will the poster of that information gain financially thereby depriving the creator?

Was there proper credit attributed to the proper creator?

Was there a violation of the 'Fair Use' clause?

Can a chat transcript be considered copyright protected to a single person/entity without full knowledge and agreement of all participants that giving up their rights to ownership of their statements? This is a question, I think for the courts to decide, but as it would seem to, right now, fall under the 'conversational' rules, it would not apply in my opinion. A group of people having a conversation cannot expect to retain copywrite ownership of those statements.

Was the work in question an actual intellectual work of a person, persons or entity as a whole that would fall under the copywrite act?

Those are some of the questions that needed to be answered before armchair lawyers get to start throwing things around. Can I answer them? No, I'm not privy to all of the facts. As I suspect most people are not.

however, I wish to state that I, once again, find Driskell's information concerning copywrite law to be laughably errenous and dangerous to pass along.

Rabe...
...who has a huge interest in the copywrite act and laws applying to it...

CarylB · 28 Jan 2004, 14:19

Thank you Rabe for a post which raises some very interesting questions which help clarify some of the doubts I had. I know this is a subject on which you are far, far better researched than me, and than most people I actually know. Some of your questions I can answer, and some as you say would need to be tested. I think though that it is far from clear that what happened was a "total" breach of copyright, and not even a clear one.

Quote:

Did the poster take the information and make it seem as if it were her's in direct violation of the facts at hand?

Definitely not

Quote:

Will the creator of that information stand to lose anything financially?

Hard to see how this could be anything but no

Quote:

Will the poster of that information gain financially thereby depriving the creator?

No

Quote:

Was there proper credit attributed to the proper creator?

Yes I would have said so. Although on this occasion a link was not given, the source was made clear.

Quote:

Was there a violation of the 'Fair Use' clause?

Yes, that occurred to me, for I would have thought that judged against most of the Fair Use criteria it would not be a violation. It would need to be tested I suppose, but given attribution was made, and there was no financial loss for the person who considers she held a copyright, and no financial gain to the poster of the information, I would have thought the application of Fair Use would be strengthened.

Quote:

Can a chat transcript be considered copyright protected to a single person/entity without full knowledge and agreement of all participants that giving up their rights to ownership of their statements? This is a question, I think for the courts to decide, but as it would seem to, right now, fall under the 'conversational' rules, it would not apply in my opinion. A group of people having a conversation cannot expect to retain copywrite ownership of those statements.

As you say, one for the courts to decide, but I think you make an extremely valid point

Quote:

Was the work in question an actual intellectual work of a person, persons or entity as a whole that would fall under the copywrite act?

Hard to see how it would be considered that. I doubt the secretary of a committee owns the intellectual copyright of the minutes of a meeting, and would have thought notes taken of a "chat" would be viewed in a similar light (unless the transcriber had altered it and inserted novel additions perhaps :) ), and there would still be the question of ownership rights you mentioned above.

Rainer said things like this "shouldn't happen at all", but copyright isn't a simple issue, and mistakes will be made. On this occasion there was no intent to breach any copyright, no belief that this was a breach, and no certainty that in law it was.

Pud said who cares? (I paraphrase

) and made some fair points about people's use of music on the net. My concern was the way this was handled. It did not need to come to the forum, and imo should not have come to the forum. Had it not been brought to the forum on the opening post of this thread, so introducing an additional point for debate, the thread would have remained on the first paragraph of the topic.

ChrisBelfast · 28 Jan 2004, 14:25

sigh! Just as we get back on topic along comes none other than Caryl to drag it way off topic again!

You musn't really care about Meat if all you actually do is hijack his board. Can't you use PM and leave the rest to do what hey are here for and thats to read about Meat or in this case Kasim. We aren't here to read about you or your issues, sorry.

Deb · 28 Jan 2004, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisNI

sigh! Just as we get back on topic along comes none other than Caryl to drag it way off topic again!

You took the words right outta my mouth Chris

Dave · 28 Jan 2004, 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by sultonfan

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisNI

sigh! Just as we get back on topic along comes none other than Caryl to drag it way off topic again!

You took the words right outta my mouth Chris

Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself Chris & Deb

libertine · 28 Jan 2004, 14:49

Maybe some kindly moderator would consider splitting the threads? Just a suggestion...

And thanks to David, we may have a more stable home for the next chat. You ROCK, man!!

Deb · 28 Jan 2004, 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by libertine

Maybe some kindly moderator would consider splitting the threads? Just a suggestion...

And thanks to David, we may have a more stable home for the next chat. You ROCK, man!!

I was thinking same laura :)
and yep David Rocks

JulesB · 28 Jan 2004, 14:52

I agree Chris, Dave and Deb! We just got home after one of the most amazing weeks of our lives and to find the same old issues arising again is most disappointing.

Jules

CarylB · 28 Jan 2004, 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisNI

sigh! Just as we get back on topic along comes none other than Caryl to drag it way off topic again!

You musn't really care about Meat if all you actually do is hijack his board. Can't you use PM and leave the rest to do what hey are here for and thats to read about Meat or in this case Kasim. We aren't here to read about you or your issues, sorry.

I see you don't refer to Rabe as "dragging it way off topic again!"

The topic of copyright was not introduced by me, but by the originator of the thread at the start. It was an issue she brought here, so it can hardly be attributed solely to me. I was responding to an interesting post from Rabe which was on that part of the topic.

How many for a full house?

Frankly I'm surprised that the topic has not been split before. Also interested to see I've been reclassified from a Meat sycophant to someone who really doesn't care about Meat ....

Rabe · 28 Jan 2004, 16:11

Yes Caryl, it is interesting how 'dragging down the topic' is attributed to you rather than people trying to clarify the topic at hand. Was there a violation of copyright?

After doing a bit more research on copyright law last night, I've come to the conclusion that a 'chat transcript' cannot be copyrighted because it does not meet the merits of what is and is not considered a 'creative work'.

Now, however, the summary of the chat itself created by the site owner could be. Which was posted? I don't know.

But then again, even if the summary were posted did it constitute a violation of copyright? Again, I don't know, not having all the facts at hand. But it would seem that, in answering all the questions, there was a far better benefit to the site owner than not (how many more people are now aware of the site than before because of the information posted? I know I was unaware of it's existence prior to this issue being raised. Unfortunately, however, I'm going to try to become unaware of it again. I just don't like the politics involved here.)

As for what venues should Kasim play in a UK tour? The ones that will have him obviously. Though I do find that the UK seems to be a much better place for new, struggling or artists seeking a 'comeback' to get bookings. Another musician I greatly admire has had much more success getting bookings in the UK than here. I'm not sure why, but it's a true statement.

Not to mention many people find success or re-find success in Europe again after having lackluster sales/luck in the states. Cher's comeback with 'Believe' is definitely attributed more to Europe than the States. Though I was disappointed when I saw Meat in Reno that Kasim didn't do an 'opening' set (it was one of the joint Meat/Cyndi Lauper dates) because I wanted to see what everyone is talking about. But that's the way it goes.

Rabe...

CarylB · 28 Jan 2004, 16:25

Quote:

Yes Caryl, it is interesting how 'dragging down the topic' is attributed to you rather than people trying to clarify the topic at hand Was there a violation of copyright?

.
Interesting but not surprising Rabe

Quote:

After doing a bit more research on copyright law last night, I've come to the conclusion that a 'chat transcript' cannot be copyrighted because it does not meet the merits of what is and is not considered a 'creative work'.
Now, however, the summary of the chat itself created by the site owner could be. Which was posted? I don't know.

It comprised extracts from the latter, but the source was acknowledged, it's hard to see any financial loss, and as you say there were potential benefits to the site owner.

And you should have got your buns over here Rabe .. Kasim opened all Meat's concerts and you'd have had your chance .. perhaps if Meat returns in the summer? :)

Deb · 28 Jan 2004, 16:30

Interesting

very odd that all of your 6 posts Rabe seem to be defending or making posts for Caryl to agree with. Maybe a coincedence, but interesting the same

Deb · 28 Jan 2004, 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by sultonfan

Interesting

very odd that all of your 6 posts Rabe seem to be defending or making posts for Caryl to agree with. Maybe a coincedence, but interesting the same

Seems from pms I'm not the only one to of noticed this either

Rabe · 28 Jan 2004, 16:38

Wow...it is interesting isn't it?

Caryl and I often agree on many things. But please don't bring up the issue of gun ownership rights...otherwise you'll see many disagreements.

But then again, when you are friends with people it seems to be the case that you are going to agree on a lot of things.

However, since your post seems to be a condemnation of Caryl and I having similiar agreements, would it have been so condemned had the information been something you, Sulton Fan, would have agreed with? Or is that more of the hypocrisy that seems to suffuse the very marrow and breadth of this forum?

Caryl...I would love to come to the UK for shows and venues. It seems that they are smaller, more intimate and more exciting and energetic. Reading accounts of concerts and other performances over there is sometimes painful in that they seem to be so much more exciting and fabulous than my own accounts! Plus, I've serious considerations and reserves about how shows are promoted and tickets are sold over here...not something which seems to happen over there. When, within seven minutes of going on sale I can have purchased and been in my car ready to drive home and my seats are still in the upper mezzanine...there is a problem with that.

Rabe...

Deb · 28 Jan 2004, 16:40

If you say so

Dave · 28 Jan 2004, 17:17

I will split the thread later when I get home & thank you all for the very kind words!

Much love to everyone on this board!!!

ROCK ON GOOD TIMES!!!

**The Flying Mouse** · 28 Jan 2004, 17:45

I think that's a good decision to split it David

.
I was about to sugest that a moderator either lock it, split it, or at least pass the popcorn round and phone the pizza dude

Don't forget folks, the "Our Little Poets" thread is OPEN right now in Off Topic for anyone who feels the need to express themselves.It's a much better way of doing so than overlong posts in which the whole point is lost

.
(Sorry, I just hate posts that are much longer than they need to be.Blame it on a short attention span

)

CarylB · 28 Jan 2004, 18:04

Ah well FM, I don't much like letters I send to a private list being copied, dissected and commented on here by someone not on that list .. so you're not the only one out of luck

Deb · 28 Jan 2004, 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarylB

Ah well FM, I don't much like letters I send to a private list being copied, dissected and commented on here by someone not on that list .. so you're not the only one out of luck

If you're referring to me, you actually asked for proof of what you'd said, I gave it.

Winston · 28 Jan 2004, 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarylB

Ah well FM, I don't much like letters I send to a private list being copied, dissected and commented on here by someone not on that list .. so you're not the only one out of luck

again, just as were getting back on topic

MEAT LOAF TRIBUTE · 28 Jan 2004, 18:39

What amazes me is that some people have time to go back and forth on this subject all day! writing pages and pages of stuff that isnt Meat Loaf related and its only 4-30! have you nothing better to do? They say the net is addictive, in some cases thats obviously true.

R. · 28 Jan 2004, 20:01

Copyright discussion and random bicker part of the the "Kasim Chat" thread.
Now you can discuss and bicker on topic.

Oh ... as this is now Off Topic for all forums except one, ... have fun with it, Neil.

28 Jan 2004, 01:02	#52
Vickip Mega Loafer Join Date: 07.02.2003 Location: Posts: 8,101	In response to R ... yes I feel very badly about the way this was handled. A while back I asked SueW if she minded if I posted information from her site on the ROL list .... and she said she had no objections. I assumed that it would be ok this time as well .. and unfortunately, I assumed incorrectly. SueW has every right to say that things cannot be posted from her website .. and as soon as she told me this in a PM I agreed and assured her that it would not happen again. However, it was not necessary to post this on a public forum, and everything in this thread has followed because of that. As I said before, I tried for at least 15-20 minutes to get into the chat, and was unsucessful. I've heard I'm not the only one ... which is something you may want to think about in the future If I had been successful, I would have gladly taken my own notes so as to have a transcript of the Meat Loaf related information to pass on to our ROL mailing list (since that's what it's all about). There are a lot of people on our mailing list who do not have as much free time as I do, so yes, I scout out any Meat Loaf related news and pass it along to them. And as far as my bringing David's thread to Meat's attention ..... Meat has opened a line of communication with his fans, such as myself, here on the forum, and for that I'm very grateful. There are a lot of threads posted here, and given Meat's grueling schedule, he doesn't have the time to look at everything. So when David raised his concern about his Ohio concert, I brought the thread to Meat's attention .... it was Meat's decision to post a response, not mine. Quite frankly, I get the feeling Meat listens to me ..... so if I see something I think he should know about, I'm not afraid to point it out to him. This is my last post on this thread .... so to Sin, Rick & BadAttitude I say thank you for the support. To Caryl, I say thank you again for your support .. and I'm truly sorry how this has escalated and how it has affected both you and the other members of the ROL mailing list. And to all your comments above, I Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself. Vicki

28 Jan 2004, 01:12	#53
Pudding I'm A Prize Fight Lover... Join Date: 22.10.2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 5,532	At the end of the day who really gives a shit? and if you do why? There's no one here who hasn't broken Copyright law in the past, you know all them bootlegs and video recordings, demo's, downloading of songs, even the ones from private websites etc etc etc. That's all copyrighted but I bet the old conscience wasn't clicking into place then. Personally if I were Kasim I wouldn't really care who read what, where or when, I'd just be thankful that the masses are reading it. Pud:o]

28 Jan 2004, 08:24	#54
Rabe Rookie Join Date: 09.06.2003 Posts: 7	What I'm finding interesting is all the armchair lawyers around here bandying around what is and what is not copyright. Di the original post violate a copyright? I've no idea, I didn't see it. But here's a few questions: Did the poster take the information and make it seem as if it were her's in direct violation of the facts at hand? Will the creator of that information stand to lose anything financially? Will the poster of that information gain financially thereby depriving the creator? Was there proper credit attributed to the proper creator? Was there a violation of the 'Fair Use' clause? Can a chat transcript be considered copyright protected to a single person/entity without full knowledge and agreement of all participants that giving up their rights to ownership of their statements? This is a question, I think for the courts to decide, but as it would seem to, right now, fall under the 'conversational' rules, it would not apply in my opinion. A group of people having a conversation cannot expect to retain copywrite ownership of those statements. Was the work in question an actual intellectual work of a person, persons or entity as a whole that would fall under the copywrite act? Those are some of the questions that needed to be answered before armchair lawyers get to start throwing things around. Can I answer them? No, I'm not privy to all of the facts. As I suspect most people are not. however, I wish to state that I, once again, find Driskell's information concerning copywrite law to be laughably errenous and dangerous to pass along. Rabe... ...who has a huge interest in the copywrite act and laws applying to it...

28 Jan 2004, 14:25	#56
ChrisBelfast Mega Loafer Join Date: 18.02.2003 Location: Posts: 1,061	sigh! Just as we get back on topic along comes none other than Caryl to drag it way off topic again! You musn't really care about Meat if all you actually do is hijack his board. Can't you use PM and leave the rest to do what hey are here for and thats to read about Meat or in this case Kasim. We aren't here to read about you or your issues, sorry.

28 Jan 2004, 14:49	#59
libertine Rookie Join Date: 23.04.2003 Posts: 24	Maybe some kindly moderator would consider splitting the threads? Just a suggestion... And thanks to David, we may have a more stable home for the next chat. You ROCK, man!!

28 Jan 2004, 14:52	#61
JulesB Senior Loafer Join Date: 07.02.2003 Posts: 188	I agree Chris, Dave and Deb! We just got home after one of the most amazing weeks of our lives and to find the same old issues arising again is most disappointing. Jules

28 Jan 2004, 16:11	#63
Rabe Rookie Join Date: 09.06.2003 Posts: 7	Yes Caryl, it is interesting how 'dragging down the topic' is attributed to you rather than people trying to clarify the topic at hand. Was there a violation of copyright? After doing a bit more research on copyright law last night, I've come to the conclusion that a 'chat transcript' cannot be copyrighted because it does not meet the merits of what is and is not considered a 'creative work'. Now, however, the summary of the chat itself created by the site owner could be. Which was posted? I don't know. But then again, even if the summary were posted did it constitute a violation of copyright? Again, I don't know, not having all the facts at hand. But it would seem that, in answering all the questions, there was a far better benefit to the site owner than not (how many more people are now aware of the site than before because of the information posted? I know I was unaware of it's existence prior to this issue being raised. Unfortunately, however, I'm going to try to become unaware of it again. I just don't like the politics involved here.) As for what venues should Kasim play in a UK tour? The ones that will have him obviously. Though I do find that the UK seems to be a much better place for new, struggling or artists seeking a 'comeback' to get bookings. Another musician I greatly admire has had much more success getting bookings in the UK than here. I'm not sure why, but it's a true statement. Not to mention many people find success or re-find success in Europe again after having lackluster sales/luck in the states. Cher's comeback with 'Believe' is definitely attributed more to Europe than the States. Though I was disappointed when I saw Meat in Reno that Kasim didn't do an 'opening' set (it was one of the joint Meat/Cyndi Lauper dates) because I wanted to see what everyone is talking about. But that's the way it goes. Rabe...

28 Jan 2004, 16:30	#65
Deb Mega Loafer Join Date: 26.04.2003 Location: Did I say that?... Posts: 4,162	Interesting very odd that all of your 6 posts Rabe seem to be defending or making posts for Caryl to agree with. Maybe a coincedence, but interesting the same

28 Jan 2004, 16:38	#67
Rabe Rookie Join Date: 09.06.2003 Posts: 7	Wow...it is interesting isn't it? Caryl and I often agree on many things. But please don't bring up the issue of gun ownership rights...otherwise you'll see many disagreements. But then again, when you are friends with people it seems to be the case that you are going to agree on a lot of things. However, since your post seems to be a condemnation of Caryl and I having similiar agreements, would it have been so condemned had the information been something you, Sulton Fan, would have agreed with? Or is that more of the hypocrisy that seems to suffuse the very marrow and breadth of this forum? Caryl...I would love to come to the UK for shows and venues. It seems that they are smaller, more intimate and more exciting and energetic. Reading accounts of concerts and other performances over there is sometimes painful in that they seem to be so much more exciting and fabulous than my own accounts! Plus, I've serious considerations and reserves about how shows are promoted and tickets are sold over here...not something which seems to happen over there. When, within seven minutes of going on sale I can have purchased and been in my car ready to drive home and my seats are still in the upper mezzanine...there is a problem with that. Rabe...

28 Jan 2004, 16:40	#68
Deb Mega Loafer Join Date: 26.04.2003 Location: Did I say that?... Posts: 4,162	If you say so

28 Jan 2004, 17:17	#69
Dave Mega Loafer Join Date: 12.04.2002 Location: Southern Ohio - United States of America Posts: 2,564	I will split the thread later when I get home & thank you all for the very kind words! Much love to everyone on this board!!! ROCK ON GOOD TIMES!!!

28 Jan 2004, 17:45	#70
The Flying Mouse Armed ba$tard and Jo's other half. Join Date: 06.08.2002 Location: In the middle of nowhere near the end of the line. Posts: 16,104	I think that's a good decision to split it David . I was about to sugest that a moderator either lock it, split it, or at least pass the popcorn round and phone the pizza dude Don't forget folks, the "Our Little Poets" thread is OPEN right now in Off Topic for anyone who feels the need to express themselves.It's a much better way of doing so than overlong posts in which the whole point is lost . (Sorry, I just hate posts that are much longer than they need to be.Blame it on a short attention span )

28 Jan 2004, 18:04	#71
CarylB Mega Loafer Join Date: 16.04.2003 Location: Sheffield UK Posts: 5,910	Ah well FM, I don't much like letters I send to a private list being copied, dissected and commented on here by someone not on that list .. so you're not the only one out of luck

28 Jan 2004, 18:39	#74
MEAT LOAF TRIBUTE Banned Join Date: 16.04.2003 Location: UK Posts: 143	What amazes me is that some people have time to go back and forth on this subject all day! writing pages and pages of stuff that isnt Meat Loaf related and its only 4-30! have you nothing better to do? They say the net is addictive, in some cases thats obviously true.

28 Jan 2004, 20:01	#75
R. You dig. Join Date: 02.04.2002 Location: On the fothermucker Posts: 7,179	Copyright discussion and random bicker part of the the "Kasim Chat" thread. Now you can discuss and bicker on topic. Oh ... as this is now Off Topic for all forums except one, ... have fun with it, Neil.