Kasim Sulton online chat synopsis (Copyright discussion)

[SueW]

A synopsis of Kasim's online chat has been added at http://www.kasiminfo.com/2004/01/25.html including some Meat Loaf info.

Please note that the copyright of the contents of that page belong to KasimInfo.com and are not to be copied without permission onto other websites or mailing lists. (Of course this is too late for the Republic Of Loafdom mailing list as Vicki Pearson has already posted it in total breach of copyright.)


Edit (R.): Duplicated Sue's original post for a proper start of this new thread.

[CarylB]

Please note that the copyright of the contents of that page belong to KasimInfo.com and are not to be copied without permission onto other websites or mailing lists. (Of course this is too late for the Republic Of Loafdom mailing list as Vicki Pearson has already posted it in total breach of copyright.)

Vicki gave a full acknowledgement of her source when she passed on the information to our closed private mailing list, in the same way others do in this open public forum when they pass on information from the web and the press.

Vicki, who is a dear friend of mine, is always scrupulous in acknowledging her sources of information, shares information freely with the purest of intentions, and imo deserves better than being smacked down in public in a forum where she is much liked.

[evil nickname]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Vicki gave a full acknowledgement of her source when she passed on the information to our closed private mailing list, in the same way others do in this open public forum when they pass on information from the web and the press.

But copyright law does state that the holder of said copyright is the only one who may decide if and how material may or may not be reproduced by 3rd parties.
If SueW thinks that all information should stay on her website, and is not to be copied anywhere else without explicit permission to do so (just guessing here), that's her right. And acknowledging the source does not mean that you can do anything you want with copyrighted material. That's like downloading an mp3, and saying: "It came from that album".

Disclaimer: nothing personal implied anywhere. Just the facts about copyright law.

[CarylB]

I won't even bother to comment on that

Addition:

Nor am I going to make any further comment on Michael Marxen's post below than to say it is one of the grosser exaggerations I have seen on this forum. Too silly really.

[Michael Marxen]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I won't even bother to comment on that

Caryl,

please stick to that rule more often!

The use of a forum is to have many different contributions and not being hijacked by someone that comments nearly each and every single post by anyone.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by evil nickname

But copyright law does state that the holder of said copyright is the only one who may decide if and how material may or may not be reproduced by 3rd parties.

Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself

[Bart]

bunch of little children here sometimes.uaahk.

[SueW]

Originally Posted by evil nickname

But copyright law does state that the holder of said copyright is the only one who may decide if and how material may or may not be reproduced by 3rd parties.

Of course if people joined in the chat themselves then this wouldn't even be an issue.

Plus you get to ask Kasim questions!

SueW

[Deb]

Originally Posted by Michael Marxen

Caryl,

please stick to that rule more often!

The use of a forum is to have many different contributions and not being hijacked by someone that comments nearly each and every single post by anyone.

CHSIB Micheal

Think mountains out of molehills is another way to describe it.. It makes topics get way out of hand and seem far worse than they ever were. Putting lots of people in a bad light in manys eyes. Would this be the aim?

Deb

[libertine]

Originally Posted by evil nickname

But copyright law does state that the holder of said copyright is the only one who may decide if and how material may or may not be reproduced by 3rd parties.
If SueW thinks that all information should stay on her website, and is not to be copied anywhere else without explicit permission to do so (just guessing here), that's her right. And acknowledging the source does not mean that you can do anything you want with copyrighted material. That's like downloading an mp3, and saying: "It came from that album".

Disclaimer: nothing personal implied anywhere. Just the facts about copyright law.

I'm no lawyer but I think you & I understand copyright in much the same manner, evil nickname... It's the holder not the borrower who decides when and where is permissible...

Ditto David & Deb's comments - thanks, Sue for all your time & work to keep us informed.

[Vickip]

Thank you Caryl :)
Vicki

[Dave]

Originally Posted by libertine

Ditto David & Deb's comments - thanks, Sue for all your time & work to keep us informed.

Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself

[Shawmtloaf]

Originally Posted by Bart

bunch of little children here sometimes.uaahk.

yep.

[original sin]

Originally Posted by SueW

A synopsis of Kasim's online chat has been added at http://www.kasiminfo.com/2004/01/25.html including some Meat Loaf info.

Please note that the copyright of the contents of that page belong to KasimInfo.com and are not to be copied without permission onto other websites or mailing lists. (Of course this is too late for the Republic Of Loafdom mailing list as Vicki Pearson has already posted it in total breach of copyright.)

Sue
Thanks for posting the link, a lot of people were talking about it in chat last night, I hope we weren't breaching your copyright.

Personally I feel it's a shame you felt that you needed to add the last line, as I am sure you like the rest of us realise that Vicki's only intention is to share any Meat related information with all fans. Personally I would welcome any promotion of my work and and site (if i had one).
It was not a criticism, derogatory, and it was duly credited.
It did not invite people to go and criticise.

Vicky emailed a closed group of friends to bring to their attention what she thought was interesting info.
At work today I was discussing the book I'm currently reading and quoted a few paragraphs from it, I don't think I was in breach of any copyright.

[AndyK]

The synopsis is great Sue, thanks for the link!

To just throw my two pennorth into the ring on this copyright thing, as the owner of some copyrighted material on the web, I have no objections to people publicising a link to my site and inviting people to follow said link to view the material, which at the end of the day is far far easier than copying and pasting the whole thing, and uses less bandwidth, and attracts visitors to the site in question where the interested individual could then perhaps linger longer and learn more, and I'm sure Sue doesn't object to KasimInfo beiung linked to in a similar way, as the MLUKFC won't object to any free publicity.

Simple netiquette states - provide a link to the info, not the info

[SueW]

Originally Posted by AndyK

To just throw my two pennorth into the ring on this copyright thing, as the owner of some copyrighted material on the web, I have no objections to people publicising a link to my site and inviting people to follow said link to view the material, which at the end of the day is far far easier than copying and pasting the whole thing, and uses less bandwidth, and attracts visitors to the site in question where the interested individual could then perhaps linger longer and learn more, and I'm sure Sue doesn't object to KasimInfo beiung linked to in a similar way, as the MLUKFC won't object to any free publicity.

Simple netiquette states - provide a link to the info, not the info

CHSIB Andy!

In fact Vicky did not e-mail "a closed group of friends" as Sin said but rather sent it to a Yahoo mailing list which is covered by Yahoo's Terms Of Service which includes the phrase

"You agree to not use the Service to:

<snip>
upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other proprietary rights ("Rights") of any party;"


Until that disgraceful photo of Meat Loaf's head on the picture of the fire-fighter after 9/11 was made, the ROL mailing list was openly listed in Yahoo's directory and anybody could join it so it is not an enclosed list.

As I indicated before, if someone from the ROL mailing list had taken the time to attend the chat and then to spend an hour or so writing the synopsis themselves then they could have posted that to the ROL list themselves and this whole episode could have been avoided.

To get back to the subject of the chat, I'm actually surprised that more people aren't talking about these tapes being sold on E-Bay or the fact that Kasim reckons that Meat Loaf will be off in June which was the month that he mentioned touring in Europe again.

SueW

P.S. After I made my initial post, I did PM Vicki and told her not to post info from my site directly to the mailing list and she replied that she wouldn't so hopefully this event will not occur again anyway.

[CarylB]

SOME FACTS

The ROL mailing list was set up in the beginning to be not listed openly in Yahoo directory. Back last year I checked the settings and it was still so listed

Last September I changed the list to a closed private list. That is exactly what it is.

[rick]

sue w as the rol is a closed mailing list and you got thrown off it someone must have tipped you off have you got the balls to tell us or is that copyright too

copyright rickmiester promotions no part of this message to be used
without the express permission of the owner

[Deb]

Originally Posted by rick

sue w as the rol is a closed mailing list and you got thrown off it someone must have tipped you off have you got the balls to tell us or is that copyright too

copyright rickmiester promotions no part of this message to be used
without the express permission of the owner

I'd want someone to tip me off if emails were going back and forth on a mailing list about me, like the ones on there have been about Sue. Sue's licky enough to have friends I presume that care enough to let her know what's going on. At least whats being written here can be seen by all. Everyone knows what Sues saying. Unlike the ss style on the ROL. Is everyone sworn to confidentiality then? Is it like, ok to talk about anyone and anything and no one can repeat it? Sounds lovely if this is how it is.

Someone tipping Sue off about whats being said about her, Is NO different to the same said people tipping Meat off when anything slightly negatives said about Meat.

And no it wasn't me that told her, but If I could of I sure as hell would of. Just as i'm sure if I was saying the things about Caryl that she has Sue on the ROL in the past few days, someone would tell her. Just a shame not everyone can see how personal its getting over there.

Deb

[Winston]

Originally Posted by sultonfan

Someone tipping Sue off about whats being said about her, Is NO different to the same said people tipping Meat off when anything slightly negatives said about Meat.

yep

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Winston

yep

Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself Deb! Right On! What's good for the goose is good for the gander is what I have always been told! You absolutely and without hesitation took each and every word right out of my mouth! You are awesome Deb and totally in the right about this!

ROCK ON FIRE BALL!!!

[original sin]

Originally Posted by David M. Driskell

Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself Deb! Right On! What's good for the goose is good for the gander is what I have always been told! You absolutely and without hesitation took each and every word right out of my mouth! You are awesome Deb and totally in the right about this!
ROCK ON FIRE BALL!!!

Extremely fair and valid point, one difference in the cases however -
If Meat is signposted to comments these are made in a public forum and that's all anyone is doing singposting him to where that information is freely available.

If there is a dedicated email group set up for a specific membership or purpose with an agreed policy then that is totally different. I am subscribed to the ROL and I will not claim to read every mail that drops in my Inbox - iget over 200 a day from various sources and have other things to do. However when the list was reorganised last year I accepted an agreement.
Lets not forget that this didn't start of has a bad thing - this started off with a piece of information shared amongst people who would be interested.
Any subsequent conversation has been the effect of the actions taken.

I still do not see the need for the remark to have been posted in the first place. I'm sorry I found it totally unnecessary and could and should have been dealt with in private by email or PM.

Sue and I have had a few discussions about speaking as we feel on each individual case on it's merits and I'm sure even if she doesn't agree with me she will accept where I'm coming from.

The knock on effect of that single addition to the original post has been imho to resurface referrences to other sites which has caused issues in the past and we have all ben trying to move away from. It has also spoilt what could have been a very interesting discussion about the content of the chat itself.

For example the ebay sales.......now I'd like to discuss the pro's and con's of that into the ground. but I really don't now feel like this thread is the place to go with it

[Deb]

On most parts Sin I agree with you.

The knock on effect of that single addition to the original post has been imho to resurface referrences to other sites which has caused issues in the past and we have all ben trying to move away from. It has also spoilt what could have been a very interesting discussion about the content of the chat itself.

Caryl actually resurfaced a lot of this herself on the ROL. no one can blame people for letting Sue know what was being said about her.

The content of the chat that was posted on the ROL actually seems to of missed out much of what kasim actually said and turned it more to a Meat related chat, which in fact it wasnt. Sue missed out on participating in that chat to get it all down for everyone, For her to see it turned into just a Meat discussion isn't very nice.

Also seems unfair that basically anyone on the ROL can say what they want about anyone here, the OIFC or anyone else, while anything anyone says here gets picked to pieces with a fine tooth comb, by the same people insisting their comments not to be repeated.

Deb

[Dave]

Originally Posted by original sin

If Meat is signposted to comments these are made in a public forum and that's all anyone is doing singposting him to where that information is freely available.
If there is a dedicated email group set up for a specific membership or purpose with an agreed policy then that is totally different.

I am going to take from this that you are saying it is wrong to drag someone's good reputation through the mud in public, but it is okay to stone them in the privacy of a "private" list? I would think common courtesy would be to live by the motto of treat everyone with equal respect, fairness, and dignity.

"Come on people now...
Smile on your brother
Everybody live together
Try to love one another
Right now..."

Seems there is an aweful lot of hate coming from certain corners of the room right now, which makes me horribly sad. I love each and every one of you from the very bottom of my piggies to the top of my platinum tipped locks.

ROCK ON GOOD TIMES!!!

[MLFAN17]

Originally Posted by sultonfan

On most parts Sin I agree with you.

The knock on effect of that single addition to the original post has been imho to resurface referrences to other sites which has caused issues in the past and we have all ben trying to move away from. It has also spoilt what could have been a very interesting discussion about the content of the chat itself.

Caryl actually resurfaced a lot of this herself on the ROL. no one can blame people for letting Sue know what was being said about her.

The content of the chat that was posted on the ROL actually seems to of missed out much of what kasim actually said and turned it more to a Meat related chat, which in fact it wasnt. Sue missed out on participating in that chat to get it all down for everyone, For her to see it turned into just a Meat discussion isn't very nice.

Also seems unfair that basically anyone on the ROL can say what they want about anyone here, the OIFC or anyone else, while anything anyone says here gets picked to pieces with a fine tooth comb, by the same people insisting their comments not to be repeated.

Deb

Sorry Deb I am going to have to disagre slightly here. I am certain people were picked on those grloups you mentioned. They are on here as well. I used to be on Loafdom and the remarks made back and forth between people was at times overwelhming(sp)! I dont mind it so much on here a this stuff doesnt or didnt come in my email on a daily basis. Comments will always be repeated its like a back up and people want to always be right and others are wrong. We all do it.