Please read - Youtube vid comments

[The Flying Mouse]

During the tour it's natural that footage will be taken at concerts, the footage will find it's way to youtube, and will then find it's way onto this forum.

Please remember that the footage on youtube is shot on camera phones, and camera phones are not often used by the professionals who create DVD's.

The footage is not the best quality, and very raw.

Accept it for what it is.

If you like the footage that's posted on youtube, great. Share how much you like it.

If you do not like the footage, keep in mind it's quality, and that is unfair (in the most literal sense of the word) to negatively comment on Meat's performance based entirely on what you've seen on youtube.
In fairness and out of respect, we would ask that any negative comments prompted by unofficial camera phone footage be kept off the forum.

It's something that has repeatedly annoyed Meat in the past (helping to create the red pony), and caused many arguments on the forum.

Personally I can't think of a single song that sounds better once it's been recorded on a camera phone and posted on youtube.

I can't think of a single song that sounds better uploaded to youtube and played through computer speakers rather than be played on a CD/DVD.

Meat deserves the benefit of the doubt, and the right to have his performance judged on the merit of footage that has been officially released.


Thanks.

[LucyK!]

Originally Posted by Monstro

Feel free to express an opinion respectfully

Unfortunately the "rules" laid out in the You Tube thread that's just emerged make the above impossible, and seeing as that's a closed thread I apologise for having to post that here in the show thread.

I hope everyone had a great time and there were cowboy hats a plenty for Meat's night in Texas. Stay safe on your travels everyone.

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by Lucy!

Unfortunately the "rules" laid out in the You Tube thread that's just emerged make the above impossible, and seeing as that's a closed thread I apologise for having to post that here in the show thread.

Remember and I am quoting directly:
"If you like the footage that's posted on youtube, great. Share how much you like it."
http://tinyurl.com/6sswtel

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by loaferman61

I am quoting directly

... and let me quote loaferman61's signature:

"Censorship is bad, and it is wrong." Meat Loaf on "Hannity"

[The Flying Mouse]

OK. let me try and explain myself a little more clearly.

If somebody sees a bad quality youtube vid and sees something they like, then it does nobody any harm to say that they think it is good.

If you see a bad quality youtube vid and you don't like it, it is only fair (IMHO) and respectful not too jump to any negative conclusions (and to share those conclusions on a public forum) about the state of Meat's voice.

It prevents poorly formed opinions (and all opinions, both good and bad, are poorly formed from a youtube clip) that may (will) be offensive to Meat, and cause arguments on the forum.

Is that really so much of a problem?
I'm failing to see the 1984 in all of this.

[LucyK!]

So, just to be clear...

If someone sees something on You Tube and they don't like it then they should give Meat the benefit of the doubt because, as you rightly pointed out, it isn't professional footage, it's been taken on cameras and phones and may not reflect the actual performance.

But if someone sees something on You Tube that they do like then they should share it, because that footage - which is taken on those same cameras and same phones - is a true reflection of the performance?

[The Flying Mouse]

Oh, one point I meant to add, The Mona Lisa might be a world renown work of art, but try taking a picture of it through a dirty camera phone lense from 100 meters away on a dark night during a fog

[razorball2002]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

OK. let me try and explain myself a little more clearly.

If somebody seems a bad quality youtube vid and sees something they like, then it does nobody any harm to say that they think it is good.

If you see a bad quality youtube vid and you don't like it, it is only fair (IMHO) and respectful not too jump to any negative conclusions (and to share those conclusions on a public forum) about the state of Meat's voice.

It prevents poorly formed opinions (and all opinions, both good and bad, are poorly formed from a youtube clip) that may (will) be offensive to Meat, and cause arguments on the forum.

Is that really so much of a problem?
I'm failing to see the 1984 in all of this.

I wasnt talking or judging the quality of a youtube video, just expressing my feelings about Meats voice at that concert (you don't need a high-rez video in order to judge it, nor a tricked official live dvd). Sorry I hurt your feelings, or because of your fears that band members might actually see this, I got deleted. It wont happen again!

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Is that really so much of a problem?

Yes, it is. Allowing one group of people to speak their mind but prohibiting others to do so IS censorship and unfair (pretty odd, since you demanded fairness in your original post). It also makes me wonder whether this is still a "discussion" board.

I've seen the post(s) that got deleted from the Austin thread and there was nothing "nasty" about them. One (!!!) person dared to express an opinion different from that of other members (yet in accordance with the - now obviously no longer valid - forum rules) and look what happened. Were those posts something to be afraid of or why have you decided to suppress such comments?

Please remember that the footage on youtube is shot on camera phones, and camera phones are not often used by the professionals who create DVD's.

If this is true, how can you judge the quality of a performance at all by such a video? Not only can't you say it was bad, you can't say it was good either. So in fact you'd have to ban any comment regarding amateur videos, regardless of whether they are favorable or unfavorable.

I guess most people are able to recognize the difference between bad footage and a bad performance. Someone might even dislike a professionally shot HQ video just because the performance is not to their liking for whatever reasons. So that rule regarding YouTube videos appears like a pretext to me.

I suggest we do not talk about anything related to Meat Loaf anymore. That way we're not in danger of saying something "wrong". Or maybe any thread on this subforum should consist of only one post (which has to be 100% flattering, of course) and you can do nothing but click the "like"
button.

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Lucy!

So, just to be clear...

If someone sees something on You Tube and they don't like it then they should give Meat the benefit of the doubt because, as you rightly pointed out, it isn't professional footage, it's been taken on cameras and phones and may not reflect the actual performance.

But if someone sees something on You Tube that they do like then they should share it, because that footage - which is taken on those same cameras and same phones - is a true reflection of the performance?

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

It prevents poorly formed opinions (and all opinions, both good and bad, are poorly formed from a youtube clip) that may (will) be offensive to Meat, and cause arguments on the forum.

My point is that liking something although your opinion is not based on the best media will not hurt Meat's feelings, but not liking it even though the media is not good quality will (I believe) hurt his feelings and is, in my opinion, not fair.

[R.]

Originally Posted by razorball2002

I wasnt talking or judging the quality of a youtube video, just expressing my feelings about Meats voice at that concert (you don't need a high-rez video in order to judge it, nor a tricked official live dvd). Sorry I hurt your feelings, or because of your fears that band members might actually see this, I got deleted. It wont happen again!

Your post with the 20+ years old footage got deleted because it had absolutely nothing to do with that show. There is a clear reminder on top of this forum to post on topic. And, because this post started the same old bitching, some replies were deleted too. End of story.

[The Flying Mouse]

Thread moved here from the Tour Talk forum.

[razorball2002]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Yes, it is. Allowing one group of people to speak their mind but prohibiting others to do so IS censorship and unfair (pretty odd, since you demanded fairness in your original post). It also makes me wonder whether this is still a "discussion" board.

I've seen the post(s) that got deleted from the Austin thread and there was nothing "nasty" about them. One (!!!) person dared to express an opinion different from that of other members (yet in accordance with the - now obviously no longer valid - forum rules) and look what happened. Were those posts something to be afraid of or why have you decided to suppress such comments?



If this is true, how can you judge the quality of a performance at all by such a video? Not only can't you say it was bad, you can't say it was good either. So in fact you'd have to ban any comment regarding amateur videos, regardless of whether they are favorable or unfavorable.

I guess most people are able to recognize the difference between bad footage and a bad performance. Someone might even dislike a professionally shot HQ video just because the performance is not to their liking for whatever reasons. So that rule regarding YouTube videos appears like a pretext to me.

I suggest we do not talk about anything related to Meat Loaf anymore. That way we're not in danger of saying something "wrong". Or maybe any thread on this subforum should consist of only one post (which has to be 100% flattering, of course) and you can do nothing but click the "like"
button.

GLAD TO SEE THERE ARE ACTUALLY PEOPLE THAT HAVE BRAINS AND COMMON SENSE. THANX SARGE. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THIS IS A FORUM FOR ML FANS, BUT ONLY ML FANS THAT CANNOT EXPRESS WHEN THEY DONT LIKE A PERFORMANCE.

[razorball2002]

EXACTLY. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, YET IT HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT. (I only wanted to show people what a good sounding Meat sounds like)

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by razorball2002

GLAD TO SEE THERE ARE ACTUALLY PEOPLE THAT HAVE BRAINS AND COMMON SENSE. THANX SARGE. YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THIS IS A FORUM FOR ML FANS, BUT ONLY ML FANS THAT CANNOT EXPRESS WHEN THEY DONT LIKE A PERFORMANCE.

Thank you for proving my point

You don't like the performance, yet you didn't see it.

All you have seen is some camera phone footage.

As I maintain, people who love a performance due to a badly shot clip may not be basing their opinion on the best media, but liking it is not likely to hurt Meat's feelings whereas saying his voice isn't as powerful (based on that self same badly shot clip) is something that would cause upset.

Isn't Meat worthy of that small consideration?
Really?

[Evil One]

For arguments sake what if the clip was of excellent visual and audio quality, but Meat was poor?

[Sarge]

@ The Flying Mouse: How about introducing a rule saying that you're not allowed to complain about the fact that there are Meat Loaf songs that feature rappers. Meat Loaf could feel offended by it. Since you appear that considerate, I'm sure you like this idea.

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Evil One

For arguments sake what if the clip was of excellent visual and audio quality, but Meat was poor?

Without backtracking, i'm going to say that that is a grey area.

Why?

Because if the vid was DVD quality, i'm talking the best, and an 100% accurate representation of his performance, then it's something that speaks for itself.

BUT......... (yes,there's a but)
There's a part of me that also feels that a bootleg (and a bootleg it would be, as is any other youtube clip) is not an official release, and it's the work an artist releases that the artist wants to represent them.

Put it this way, so see what a painter is like, do you go to his studio or the bin round the back?

If it's an official release, I say that honest but respectful criticism is perfectly acceptable.

This thread seems to suggest that i'm trying to make mlukfc into a 100% palace of perfect positivity.

That, to be blunt, is crap.

I was not in love with everything about HCTB, and was quite vocal about my dislike.

I hate rap, I hate the raps on HIHB, and i've felt no hesitation in expressing how much I hate them.

So no, I don't think this place needs to be full of unicorns that eat ambrosia and shit rainbows.
But I do think that Meat deserves to be condemned by something better than a camera phone clip.


As a side note, I think it's strange that I feel I need to justify my thoughts by mentioning i'm not 100% in love with everything Meat has ever done.
That's sort of weird on a fan club

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Sarge

@ The Flying Mouse: How about introducing a rule saying that you're not allowed to complain about the fact that there are Meat Loaf songs that feature rappers. Meat Loaf could feel offended by it. Since you appear that considerate, I'm sure you like this idea.

I'm so glad I was typing the above when you posted that

Meat's choice to put rappers on the record is his.
The choice to feature in a camera phone clip isn't so much in his hands.

[Wario]

this whole thing amazes me. Id say if you disagree with someone deal with it. The person being "negative" isnt a bad person, but an honest one. Ive been too many times the negative nancy being disappointed with shit everyone else seems to love cause of my overtly critical mentality. There shouldnt even be a rule to begin with. I believe trolling should be the only thing that gets penalized in this matter, not being overtly "negative".

The most interesting discussions are the ones where someone feels something below par and they discuss what they think. Its interesting. You dont need to agree with it, but this is a forum. Some of meats biggest fans who love him to death are the most critical of him. Im lying to myself if i said Id take current meat over 1988 meat, but it doesn't mean meat still kicks freaking ass.

Until Meat decides to set foot on this forum again, i wouldn't be too bothered if what you say offends him. hes a big boy and can take constructive criticism. hes gone here anyway. Its sad but true

Now who wants pie

[LisaT]

The thing is, there are low quality phones and cameras, and there are high quality phones and cameras. I saw clips on Youtube which were recorded from quite a way back and were obviously recorded on low quality equipment (you could just tell, because the whole thing wasn't great, not just Meat's vocals). I also saw a clip recorded from down at the front, on what was quite obviously a higher quality phone or camera, and the whole thing sounded great, including Meat's vocals. Comparing the two, I have come to the conclusion that the video recorded down nearer the front was the more accurate one. I think, in most cases, it is possible to tell whether it's the performance that's poor, or if it's the recording equipment that's poor.

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by Wario

Until Meat decides to set foot on this forum again, i wouldn't be too bothered if what you say offends him. hes a big boy and can take constructive criticism. hes gone here anyway. Its sad but true

Now who wants pie

Just what I was thinking. When you get paid the big bucks to perform in front of thousands of people nightly you have to accept that people .. even <gasp> fans are going to have reactions and not 100% will be fawning positives about rolley-coasters and cotton candy clouds. And if Meat would use the wealth of knowledge about the love of his songs on here to take some constructive points or honest feelings it can only help him. Does he really not know that sometimes he has an off-night? Hell, I do office work and some days I know my work sucked and it is open to criticism from those who employ me.

One other point a DVD is an official release as we know and has been in 99% of cases "cleaned-up", overdubbed, etc. before release. That is not a negative, a;most everybody does it. But that isn't a true representation. As some say "we have been down this road", thing is we learned nothing. Being told that if your opinion is positive share it, but if not STFU is a double standard.

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by The Flying Mouse

Without backtracking, i'm going to say that that is a grey area.

Why?

Because if the vid was DVD quality, i'm talking the best, and an 100% accurate representation of his performance, then it's something that speaks for itself.

BUT......... (yes,there's a but)
There's a part of me that also feels that a bootleg (and a bootleg it would be, as is any other youtube clip) is not an official release, and it's the work an artist releases that the artist wants to represent them.

Put it this way, so see what a painter is like, do you go to his studio or the bin round the back?

If it's an official release, I say that honest but respectful criticism is perfectly acceptable.

Okay, I understand 100% where you are coming from...however, I also remember some comments (which were, IMO, honest and respectful) about a television appearance a little while ago that caused a big uproar around here- is a television appearance considered "official" and therefore "fair game"?

Or, let's say if someone actually attended a show and had something less than glowing to say? I'm going to be totally honest and say that I've not been totally honest about some of my opinions in that regard. And, I don't mean that in a "bad" way, before anyone thinks that, I just don't feel free to express my complete honest opinion.

And, if I may play Devil's Advocate for a moment, an official DVD is not always a 100% accurate depiction of a performance.

[LisaT]

Originally Posted by Wario

hes gone here anyway. Its sad but true

Actually, he's been back here a couple of times over the last week, but I fear that this thread may send him running again!

[PanicLord]

Surely the point is, whatever your opinion is, try and post with some consideration and respect. I agree with the Flying Mouse - that doesn't sound like too much to ask!