Opinions

[Monstro]

Taken from post in another thread which Slice of English has requested be posted here.

"Meat, you may never read this post and my posts, such as they are, are not really worthy of your attention. I will say, however, that I concur with you that the one place intended to be a safe haven for you, a fan forum dedicated to you, is actually nothing more than a place where every little detail of every little thing you do is scrutinized and debated like a government policy. Instead of celebrating like a fan forum should do, this place at times tears you down and builds you up in unequal measure. It is frustrating because some people who don't necessarily like your current work still feel the need to tell everyone about it because hey, we're all "entitled" to an opinion. That's as maybe, but in my view a fan forum should be exactly that, not a forum for criticising the artist and saying what you don't like.

Hey, so I went off on a tangent and I'm sure the free speech supporters will ridicule and disagree with what I said but then, of course they would, I'm supporting Meat aren't I?"

[LucyK!]

This is the Meat Loaf UK Fan Club discussion forum, emphasis on the word Discussion.

If, as you suggest, people don't post when they don't like things then there'd be sod all point in reading the threads because they'd just be various renditions of "wow that was brilliant" - so what's the point in having the forum at all? There'd be no point in opening the thread about the new DVD because you'd already know what it said!

On that basis I have to ask, if people can't post their honest reviews here then where are they meant to do it? Or are people meant to say nothing if they don't like the product they've paid for? I don't understand why posting honestly equates to posting negatively.

I'm just not seeing the issue in people sharing that they didn't like something? Or didn't like something as much as they liked something else. That's how conversations work! Lots of people bringing different views and opinions to the table, all equally valid.

And I'll tell you what, that's how this place used to be, and why so many people loved it and dedicated masses amount of time and effort to keeping it running, right back to when we had printed RVM's. Sadly that appears to be ancient history now. If a forum full of people posting nothing but compliments to Meat is what you want - no discussions, no debates, no differences in opinions - then I'm sure that very soon you'll have it, because those that do post their honest views, no matter how respectfully, are considered negative people who aren't good fans to Meat, and those people are leaving.

[anotherday]

I haven't been here too long so IDK if this is valid BUT why can't there be equal parts of all aspects? Why do people jump on the "this is shit" wagon too quickly? And why do some instigate arguments over stupid little things?

Sometimes posts ive read reminds me of the kids at work.... And not in a good way.

Sorry if this is "out of olace" for a new person...

[The Flying Mouse]

I still believe that the biggest factor in all of this is Meat's (and Paul's) presence on the forum.

Without Meat and Paul we would be what we used to be. A forum of people who liked to discuss the work of the artist we love, and none of it would make a difference. If there was disagreement it was good natured and interesting disagreement.

But like it or not things changed when Meat landed.
Anything that would once have been thought of as a negative opinion about something is now seen as "nit picking", "disrespectful", and "insulting".

I don't believe that on the whole most people want to be insulting or disrespectful (although now and again someone will post something to get a rise).
People just want to relax in the company of people who share their interest and to speak their mind in a equally relazed way. i.e..............

The rap on HIHB is crap.

Without Meat some people might say that agree, some people will say i'm nuts not to it, but there's no harshness or conflict when we are fans discussing it among ourselves. Thyat's why the forum is here.

To say the rap on HIHB is crap with Meat on the forum prompts replies of "how can you say Meat's work is crap" "why do you have to be disrespectful?" etc etc.


The way things used to be, we could speak our mind about anything.
That doesn't work anymore.

How can you say something is crap in a respectful way?
Any negative opinion is seen as insulting because it's personal to Meat's work. And he works hard at what he does.

In theory, posts can be reported and deleted, and opinions are withdrawn, for the simple fact that the person who disagrees with it says that it's disrespectful to say such a thing about Meat's work.

I mean WTF?

Having Meat and Paul on the forum is great. Especially the way Meat's been recently. Talking to the fans in a relaxed and friendly way rather than telling them off and storming off the forum has been delightful for me to see

But it all comes at a price.

So what do we do to have freedom of speech?

Ban Meat?

Move to another forum Meat doesn't know of and change the subject if he happens to find us?

Create a section of the forum that Meat can't see so that we can communicate our opinions to each other without being offensive (or at least accused of being offensive) towards Meat?

I don't think any of those ideas are realistic.


I happen to agree that as a fan club the membership here, his fanbase, should naturally be a place that supports Meat and has a positive feeling towards Meat.
Thios is something that I personally have no problem with 98% of the time.

But at the same time I want to be able to express a negative opinion if I have one.

I tend to agree with Lucy that there's not much point in a forum if you know what's said without reading it.

You might as well take away the text box, take away the dislike button, and just leave a large like button in the middle of the screen

[Sarge]

I have the feeling we're more busy discussing this tiresome issue over and over again than talking about music, movies, interviews, etc.

[ice]

Why oh why can't we let Meat be?Why do people have to nit-pick,analyze and judge every single aspect of his life?!Sure,I believe in freedom of speech as much as the next guy or gal but please...people!!Something positive.The man is 65 and has paid his dues...let Meat live how he wants;do what he wants and so on without anybody being critical.Where did the respect go that we're to show amongst our seniors?!He has accomplished so much during his lifetime.

[The Flying Mouse]

Originally Posted by Sarge

I have the feeling we're more busy discussing this tiresome issue over and over again than talking about music, movies, interviews, etc.

You noticed huh?
We'll still be talking about this 5 years from now, and nothing will have changed.

Originally Posted by ice

Why oh why can't we let Meat be?Why do people have to nit-pick,analyze and judge every single aspect of his life?!Sure,I believe in freedom of speech as much as the next guy or gal but please...people!!Something positive.The man is 65 and has paid his dues...let Meat live how he wants;do what he wants and so on without anybody being critical.Where did the respect go that we're to show amongst our seniors?!He has accomplished so much during his lifetime.

It's not about "leaving Meat be".

This is a fan club. It's for fans to come together and discuss his work. What we like about it, and the things we are not so fond of.
We do not write letters addressed to Meat Loaf, or send him emails with our opinions. We post them to like minded fans who might find interest and debate in our point of view.
Nobody has hounded Meat to join this forum, and nobody forces him to read the posts.
Meat comes here and reads of his own free will.

Plus let's not lose sight of the fact that for every negative opinion there are plenty of people who will disagree with that opinion.

Meat's work may be criticized here like nowhere else (because fans, being more knoledgeable about his career, are more likely to know what they are talking about and weather they feel something is up to par) but I also believe that nowhere online does he have his buttocks polished like he does here.

But it's a fan club, and it's only right he's shown some love IMHO.

What Meat, and any fan who thinks this is a forum for people to insult Meat needs to remember is this:

We are not here to hate Meat Loaf.

We come here because we are interested in his work. If we were not, we wouldn't bother being here.

Just because a fan doesn't like a certain thing, it does not mean that that fan is attacking Meat personally by posting that view.

[loaferman61]

The last interactions I saw with Meat were extremely pleasant. Aside from the occasional poster fishing to get a rise out of him, everyone here admires and respects him and his work. We are humans and in fact his customers, and we have opinions. As long as a post does not personally insult Meat what is wrong with having an opinion of his work? We can't all like everything equally, well 99% of us can't. Even Meat has later come to say that some of his past work was not his favorite either. I think I remember what albums he said but given the nature of the forum I hesitate to even name them.

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by ice

Why oh why can't we let Meat be?Why do people have to nit-pick,analyze and judge every single aspect of his life?!Sure,I believe in freedom of speech as much as the next guy or gal but please...people!!Something positive.The man is 65 and has paid his dues...let Meat live how he wants;do what he wants and so on without anybody being critical.Where did the respect go that we're to show amongst our seniors?!He has accomplished so much during his lifetime.

Everyone in the public eye who sells product with their name on it and sells tickets to see them is going to get scrutiny. I don't get what we could do to stop him from living as he wants. I also don''t see why age factors in, I see plenty of performers half Meat's age who seem to almost be older than Meat is. He's still rocking and showing it doesn't have an expiration date.

[CarylB]

I think there's a middle ground. For eg, if you don't like an album you don't need to keep repeating it every time someone else posts that they like it, as R pointed out the other day.

Mouse, you said

The rap on HIHB is crap.

Without Meat some people might say that agree, some people will say i'm nuts not to it, but there's no harshness or conflict when we are fans discussing it among ourselves. Thyat's why the forum is here.

To say the rap on HIHB is crap with Meat on the forum prompts replies of "how can you say Meat's work is crap" "why do you have to be disrespectful?" etc etc.

Your view of rap may well be that it's crap, but there are more courteous ways of expressing that view surely? Ones that show more respect for an artist who has learned about the genre and included it on his album? For eg, "I really don't like the rap; it's something I can't get into, so these two tracks don't appeal to me at all." I would understand your point of view, even if you said you hated it, as long as you didn't dismiss it as "crap". (And that's how you can say you really have no time for something without being in the least disrespectful.)

To me it's a matter of degree and phrasing. By all means say when you don't like something, but there's no need to be so brutally blunt as to be rude. We gain a lot from Meat and Paul visiting here, information on what's in the pipeline, inside information on how things were done etc and I still believe many people, like me, consider it a special privilege that the artist we follow and that this site is named for and dedicated to actually BOTHERS to come and post. I think that's worth exercising some thought before we hit "Submit Reply" as R, Andy and Dave have often pointed out. Things we might say carelessly in a face to face conversation are not always the best to put into writing.

I'm not sure why blunt comments that take no account of how the performer who has delivered the work may read them need to be part of any discussion. We can discuss with some degree of sensitivity to his feelings and pride in his work surely without fatally compromising the quality of discussion? And those fans who love Meat's work and delight in it, will also be weighed down by unnecessarily harshly expressed criticism .. after all we come here to celebrate the work of a man we follow and are fans of.

Having said that, I agree it is daft to jump on any negative comments providing they are expressed reasonably.

But it's matter of degree, and there is a middle path imo where we don't for eg have to say "Do you get the concert people out of their bodybags before putting them in seats?". No doubt thought to be "amusing" but in my view rather unnecessary, and likely to cause some offence to some members .. those who were at the concert, and those fans who don't feel obliged to, or cannot stand, throughout a concert, but are entitled to consider themselves fans of rock and roll in general and Meat in particular as equal as anyone else.

Ice said:

Why oh why can't we let Meat be?Why do people have to nit-pick,analyze and judge every single aspect of his life?!Sure,I believe in freedom of speech as much as the next guy or gal but please...people!!Something positive.The man is 65 and has paid his dues...let Meat live how he wants;do what he wants and so on without anybody being critical.Where did the respect go that we're to show amongst our seniors?!He has accomplished so much during his lifetime.

I understand your feelings and tend to agree Ice, although for as long as I can remember as soon as anything new comes out there will be some determined to pick through it, paw over it, and find fault with it, whether it be the company who made the DVD or are managing the PR or distribution, or now Paul for the sound editing, and Meat for pretty much everything, while at the same time immediately starting to make plans for the next CD, DVD or whatever And although I might find it wearisome, if that's what floats their boat I can pass on by, as long as it's done with some consideration for the feelings of the artist and those who happen to simply enjoy the work.

This, personally, I don't find helpful:
"I also believe that nowhere online does he have his buttocks polished like he does here." It implies that those of us who are not critical are ass-kissing. I object to that. Why not say "Nowhere on-line does he get more support and positive comments"? That would not offend anyone.

This I like and agree with:
"But it's a fan club, and it's only right he's shown some love"


Caryl

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I'm not sure why blunt comments that take no account of how the performer who has delivered the work may read them need to be part of any discussion. We can discuss with some degree of sensitivity to his feelings and pride in his work surely without fatally compromising the quality of discussion? And those fans who love Meat's work and delight in it, will also be weighed down by unnecessarily harshly expressed criticism .. after all we come here to celebrate the work of a man we follow and are fans of.

Having said that, I agree it is daft to jump on any negative comments providing they are expressed reasonably.

But it's matter of degree, and there is a middle path imo where we don't for eg have to say "Do you get the concert people out of their bodybags before putting them in seats?". No doubt thought to be "amusing" but in my view rather unnecessary, and likely to cause some offence to some members .. those who were at the concert, and those fans who don't feel obliged to, or cannot stand, throughout a concert, but are entitled to consider themselves fans of rock and roll in general and Meat in particular as equal as anyone else.

I know where you're coming from, Caryl. However, I think you're asking people to post in a way unlike how they would talk to one another over a few drinks at some get-together. I think comments such as "rap is crap" is something like we would actually say to each other. I think people come here to relax and have fun, without having to worry about how they word every little thing they say. Imagine a room full of work colleagues; even if most generally like their jobs, there are most likely going to be complaints about something, and people can share and commiserate. Now, imagine the boss walks into the room- that's what we have here.

One of the reasons I like this forum and the other fan forums (of several artists) I belong to is that I think it's amazing that I can chat and share with fans from all walks of life and all over the world. I love it that I can log on and find out what was played in Helsinki last night- or even, in some cases, as it's happening. How cool is that? Part of that fun is also debating and discussing (maybe even a little fighting ), and people use words like "crap" and even worse. This is the only forum that I belong to where the artist posts, but it's also the only forum where this issue is even an issue, for whatever that's worth. I'm not making a judgement, it's just how it is.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Julie in the rv mirror

I know where you're coming from, Caryl. However, I think you're asking people to post in a way unlike how they would talk to one another over a few drinks at some get-together. I think comments such as "rap is crap" is something like we would actually say to each other. I think people come here to relax and have fun, without having to worry about how they word every little thing they say. Imagine a room full of work colleagues; even if most generally like their jobs, there are most likely going to be complaints about something, and people can share and commiserate. Now, imagine the boss walks into the room- that's what we have here.

Thanks But that was really my point, ie that we're not talking to each other over a drink. We're posting written words .. and they will echo loudly after we've left the bar for others to hear when they come in. And it's not merely about "the boss" walking in imo .. it's about many fans who don't all feel the same. I've never found it that onerous to consider the likely response to what I say, whether face to face or in writing. I tend to do it automatically to attempt to get the best response I can anyway. But in writing you can't see, as you can face to face, the immediate response and add something immediately to further explain or to take a perceived sting out of what you've said.

Yes, that this is an issue and that the artist is interested enough to come and post here is fact, and one worth bearing in mind I think. I still believe those who have said think 'before you hit the button' offer wise advice, because we're not chatting face to face, we don't all know each other as well as we might some friends we regularly meet face to face .. and I really don't feel uncool to think before I post, or avoid words to describe all or even aspects of the artist's work as "crap" or in any other terms which might not be meant to be discourteous or inflammatory, but which can easily be taken to be when read some hours or days later.

Caryl

[Julie in the rv mirror]

Originally Posted by CarylB

Thanks But that was really my point, ie that we're not talking to each other over a drink. We're posting written words .. and they will echo loudly after we've left the bar for others to hear when they come in. And it's not merely about "the boss" walking in imo .. it's about many fans who don't all feel the same. I've never found it that onerous to consider the likely response to what I say, whether face to face or in writing. I tend to do it automatically to attempt to get the best response I can anyway. But in writing you can't see, as you can face to face, the immediate response and add something immediately to further explain or to take a perceived sting out of what you've said.

Yes, that this is an issue and that the artist is interested enough to come and post here is fact, and one worth bearing in mind I think. I still believe those who have said think 'before you hit the button' offer wise advice, because we're not chatting face to face, we don't all know each other as well as we might some friends we regularly meet face to face .. and I really don't feel uncool to think before I post, or avoid words to describe all or even aspects of the artist's work as "crap" or in any other terms which might not be meant to be discourteous or inflammatory, but which can easily be taken to be when read some hours or days later.

You're right, Caryl, it is about many fans who don't all feel the same, but who also have many different personalities and ways of expressing themselves. You are a person who carefully thinks everything out in advance; other people may use more "colorful" language to express themselves. I don't think there's anything wrong with either approach, as long as people aren't being clearly offensive, which I honestly can't say I've ever seen on this board. I mean, are we seriously arguing about the use of the word "crap" on the one hand, while some people are complaining about curse words being bleeped out on the DVD?

At the end of the day, this place is supposed to be fun. It becomes less so when people have to walk on eggshells for fear of upsetting someone with one "wrong" word. I think it would be great if we could reach some happy medium, but unfortunately it always seems to come back to the same old arguments. I agree with Lucy- eventually what's going to happen is that people will stop posting completely or just leave altogether, and I don't think anybody wants to see that happen.

[Mr. Happy]

A little off topic, but something I've been meaning to mention for a while. Mouse, I really like your posts. Even when I don't agree with them (which isn't all that common). You always seem to consider both sides of the issue, the way you write is intelligent and not very inflammatory, and...yeah. I like the way you moderate this place :)

On topic...I've posted my thoughts on this issue before, in a way that was perhaps a little more blunt than I should have, so I'll be a little more diplomatic this time. I agree with both Julie and Caryl, to be honest (as contradictory as that sounds). You need a middle ground of social decency, because there are people at one extreme calling for extreme censorship and others going for complete freedom of speech. I think that the people who should make that decision should be the mods (and no one else), on a case by case basis. If the people who police this place don't have a problem with it, then neither should you.

I don't know what else to say that isn't blatantly obvious, so I'll leave it at that :P

EDIT: Also note that I didn't see the post(s) that inspired this thread, I'm always sleeping when all the fun happens. So if I'm missing something contextual, my apologies.

[Monstro]

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

You need a middle ground of social decency, because there are people at one extreme calling for extreme censorship and others going for complete freedom of speech.

That's the best line written on the subject and hits the nail on the head.

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

I think that the people who should make that decision should be the mods (and no one else), on a case by case basis. If the people who police this place don't have a problem with it, then neither should you.

Yes, and to be somewhat blunt we're not forcing anyone to stay here, if I go somewhere and don't like it I leave, I wouldn't sit there all night saying how much I disliked it (though I do like the dramatic I'm leaving statements which nine times outta ten aren't kept up). Worth saying again that the mods aren't everywhere all the time, if there's a problem report it.

As a somewhat avid Meat memorabilia collector I've got just about everything I can lay my hands on so part of me itches when my collection is missing something, as it is now. I haven't yet got the DVD/CD/documentary. Now a few years ago I could've had a conversation on this site as to the reason why I haven't bought it and more than likely had reason instilled in me through an open and honest conversation/debate, now though all hell would break loose, why? My personal opinion on that is that this place has become the unofficial official fan club since the forum on .net closed, I miss .net because this place just isn't as open and honest in it's opinions since the internet lost the place where as Lucy said ...

Originally Posted by LucyK!

If, as you suggest, people don't post when they don't like things then there'd be sod all point in reading the threads because they'd just be various renditions of "wow that was brilliant" -

.....you see that left this place as the discussion place.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Mr. Happy

I agree with both Julie and Caryl, to be honest (as contradictory as that sounds). You need a middle ground of social decency, because there are people at one extreme calling for extreme censorship and others going for complete freedom of speech. I think that the people who should make that decision should be the mods (and no one else), on a case by case basis. If the people who police this place don't have a problem with it, then neither should you.

The first thing I said was that I think there's a middle ground. (I referred to the word "crap" simply because it was the example given, and the question of how else could that view be expressed was asked.) I also said I think it's daft to jump on any negative comments providing they are expressed reasonably, though I will say my view is different when it is. Social decency is exactly what we should go for I agree, and I think that's all I'd ever ask people to exercise .. all I've ever argued for.

I agree it's up to people to report what they find offensive and up to the moderator team to make a decision, and that's what I do. I accept their decisions and almost invariably agree with them.

Julie said:

You are a person who carefully thinks everything out in advance; other people may use more "colorful" language to express themselves.

That sounds so laboured .. I can be as spontaneous as most people. I was just brought up to think about others' feelings as well as my own, and to see there's a difference between chatting casually with a friend over a drink and writing something that many people will read. It's not about my freedom of speech being censored imo .. just a little care and common sense. As to colourful language, I have a fairly good repertoire which I exercise differently in different places There are a lot of words I will use regularly in conversation with friends which the board would censor , but I don't feel aggrieved or that my freedom of speech has been suppressed. And I will still say here that I loved a show, that Meat's vocals were great, that he nailed the high Cs in Bat. However, I no longer write my reviews as I used to because my evocative phrases and imagery were clearly like a red rag to a few regular readers and posters, and crowbarred into their posts to make fun. Now I use those where I know they will be enjoyed and not where they will incite mockery. It's simply cutting my cloth with regard to the body that presents itself

Caryl

[loaferman61]

I thought this quote from Meat in the recent article hits the nail on the head.
"You either love it or hate it. I like that. That goes for everything I've done. You either love it or hate it. There's nothing worse than lukewarm. Give me five stars or give me one. Don't give me three. That's boring."
http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/...nt?oid=3076285

[chairboys]

Originally Posted by loaferman61

I thought this quote from Meat in the recent article hits the nail on the head.
"You either love it or hate it. I like that. That goes for everything I've done. You either love it or hate it. There's nothing worse than lukewarm. Give me five stars or give me one. Don't give me three. That's boring."
http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/...nt?oid=3076285

So, no middle ground then. No give or take. Extreme views only. Carry on as usual.

[loaferman61]

I posted a quote directly from a recent article said by Meat. That is what he said. I put a few words in bold, but if you read it understand that Meat said it.

[loaferman61]

Originally Posted by chairboys

So, no middle ground then. No give or take. Extreme views only. Carry on as usual.

That is the way Meat put it, yes. Says it goes for everything he's done.

[Adje]

Originally Posted by chairboys

Carry on as usual.

Or you read what's actually said. These aren't loaferman's words but Meat's words.

I guess people who disliked the quote actualy dislike what Meat says

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by loaferman61

I thought this quote from Meat in the recent article hits the nail on the head.
"You either love it or hate it. I like that. That goes for everything I've done. You either love it or hate it. There's nothing worse than lukewarm. Give me five stars or give me one. Don't give me three. That's boring."
http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/...nt?oid=3076285

He did not however say that if you hate it, you should express that hate with rudeness and disrespect. You can still dislike something and express that opinion with respect. That is the biggest issue here in my opinion; Being respectful to others. Respect for others, is what seems to become lacking here.
That's just what I think. I will say it once here and move on.

Chairboy said it best;

Originally Posted by chairboys

So, no middle ground then. No give or take. Extreme views only. Carry on as usual.

Or as the saying goes "same sh*t different day."

Originally Posted by Sarge

I have the feeling we're more busy discussing this tiresome issue over and over again than talking about music, movies, interviews, etc.

I actually agree with you on this one Sarge!

[Adje]

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

Chairboy said it best;
Or as the saying goes "same sh*t different day."

He actually said it on Meat Loaf's own quote...

Disrespect is btw not just what people write but also how you want to read it. I have the feeling a lot of people don't think about what they just read and just assume the worse...

[BostonAngel]

Originally Posted by Adje

He actually said it on Meat Loaf's own quote...

Yes, LOAFERMAN81 was directly quoting Meat
CHAIRBOY was giving HIS own thoughts on what that meant for this forum and I agreed with him. I expressed the same thought with different words.

I have given my OPINION; anyone, including you can twist it around, disagree with it, purposely misinterpret it, intentionally misquote it, slice it, dice it, nitpick it apart, criticize it - all the usual things that some people do.

I think Caryl said it best and gave superb examples of how best to state things with consideration and respect for others.

I have given MY OPINION on OPINIONS.

I am going to quote myself here:

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

..........."same sh*t different day."

AND

Originally Posted by BostonAngel

That's just what I think. I will say it once here and move on.

[Sarge]

Originally Posted by Adje

I have the feeling a lot of people don't think about what they just read and just assume the worse...

That's one of the main causes for trouble on this forum, in my opinion. Statements are not being carefully read and analyzed but associated with something (e.g. past events or experiences, or one's assumptions, expectations, prejudices, etc.) instead.