Scotland

[chairboys]

Is it goodbye?

[Evil One]

I doubt it

[Guy]

In all seriousness.....I dont think it will go yes but if it does I hardly think it will bring an end to the UK. If they believe an independant Scotland is a better Scotland then good luck to them.
Wales will be next.
Pretty sure life will go on as normal. More

things concern me at the moment in this crazy world.
Birmingham cant buy a win! Hey Mr Chairboys?

[chairboys]

Originally Posted by Guy

things concern me at the moment in this crazy world.
Birmingham cant buy a win! Hey Mr Chairboys?

Sorry, I forgot there were more pressing issues than the break-up of the union.
Not the best of starts for you. Another long slog ahead, I fear.
Reds have had mixed fortunes, but the Chairboys have flown out of the blocks. I watched them against Bury recently. Though the 0-0 scoreline doesn't suggest a classic they played with real promotion potential.

[Evil One]

If they do leave then England will still keep baling them out, so they won't really have left anyway.

[TheDoode]

Independence is a great idea for Scotland; it's been under the shadow of Westminster for far too long. The two countries couldn't be more different - both with what they value and the social vibe. Emphasis on the arts. If Scotland can come up with a solid economic plan then it's definitely the right move to make.

[Evil One]

The whole thing is about political posturing. If they don't have a solid economic plan and it all goes tits up then England will end up stumping up the cash as a broken Scotland is no good for any of us. And our parliament likes giving money to foreign countries.

[TheDoode]

Yep, but if it doesn't go 'tits up' then it was probably a good idea. Besides, it can't really go any more 'tits up' than England right now.

[tonyloaf]

let them do what ever they want, it still wont be sunny there :)

[TheDoode]

... it's sunny 'there' right now.

[Sebastian.]

Originally Posted by TheDoode

... it's sunny 'there' right now.

Indeed, today is Scotland's annual day of summer.

[TheDoode]

It's been mostly sunny since May. In fact, it's been sunnier (here) than it has in most parts of England, this year.

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Evil One

The whole thing is about political posturing. If they don't have a solid economic plan and it all goes tits up then England will end up stumping up the cash as a broken Scotland is no good for any of us. And our parliament likes giving money to foreign countries.

I agree with you about the politics .. This is the best and most articulate, reasoned and cogent thing I've seen written on the subject, and from a Scot, so perhaps carries more weight than anything I could say, for I am not a Scot so have no final voice in this proposal to dissolve the partnership between my country and Scotland in a blaze of what I see as somewhat misplaced patriotism.

"Well it's nearly here! The Referendum that could lead to Scotland divorcing from the UK. I am not a politician. I am a born and bred Scot living and working here and typing this on his phone from his bath. Sorry about the last bit.

Let's cut through the bullshit, the scaremongering (on both sides) and the dream selling. This is important. For our children's grandchildren and beyond.

All proud Scots want what is best for Scotland, so let's start by agreeing that on this we can agree.

Let's also agree that too many policies for too many years were 'made in London' and did not address Scotland's specific needs.
But we now have a Scottish Parliament and all parties agree that it will get more powers whatever the outcome. I believe that. Mr Salmond and SNP do deserve credit for getting Scotland's voice heard better than ever before in my lifetime. But the fact is that with our own parliament in place we can't keep blaming everything on Westminster. That's out of date. We already have many independent powers, with more to come. To move from a wish to secure these extra powers, to filing for full divorce, cannot be the right thing for Scotland.

We have a population about the size of Yorkshire's but over a much greater land mass to service with roads, small schools, hospitals etc. Our population is ageing faster than UK with a big pensions challenge ahead with a lot of gold plated public sector pensions in there. We have a relatively small tax base and we rely heavily on the public sector for employment and on one commodity.

Oil and gas is a valuable resource. The most optimistic forecast gives us 30 or 40 more years on the dipstick, the blink of an eye in the life of a nation. Yes, it may see today's politicians out, but they will not be around to deal with 'life after oil.' During that time the price may vary greatly. Up or down. We have no control.
Basing a 400 year decision on a 40 year resource of which we do not control the price does not make good sense. Short term-ism on a grand scale. It will take one hell of lot of wind and whisky to replace it.

The form of 'independence' that says 'We would like to share the pound in a formal union and the Bank of England can carry on setting the interest rates' defeats one of the main claimed benefits of independence..controlling one's own future. Interest rates would be set in a country made foreign by a yes vote, a country that no longer had any political or other motive for considering the interests of the 'independent' country north of the border no longer part of UK. This could really hurt us. This is the version of 'independence' that Mr Salmond claims to want for us. I just don't get it.

Talking of banks, if we were to divorce from UK, we would have no lender of last resort. We don't need long memories to sicken ourselves with the mess of the so called 'financial crisis'. I have another set of words for it: greed, lies, arrogance and more greed. But the fact is that our own Scottish institutions had their snouts in the trough along with the best of them and together they nearly brought the country to its knees. IF we had been independent at that time, Scotland Plc would have been bust. The Scottish taxpayer could not have underwritten the debt. We needed the financial strength of the Bank of England and the UK taxpayer to bail out RBS and others. It is a fool that believes that humans really learn from past mistakes... They go right out there and make all their own new ones. Would we like to go to Europe for our bail out if it were needed in the future. Greece is not having fun.

It strikes me as a peculiar form of 'independence' that wants to divorce from England, while at the same time get closer to Brussels. If one of the main complaints is feeling controlled by an unelected government, do we really want to swap London for Brussels? It seems to me that there is a hefty dose of 'anti English' being confused and dressed up as pro-independence. Pre- divorce proceedings are messy, and it saddens me that Scotland is going through its own version, whatever the outcome, with our three other partners in rest of UK.

I am a passionately proud Scot. Born here, schooled here. I've spent my life working here, investing in and promoting Scotland both in UK and abroad, and doing my best to provide good employment here. My children were born here and are schooling here. My point is, don't try and tell me that believing that being in a BETTER version of UK, which we can have, and staying part of the family with our Welsh, Irish and English friends somehow makes me un-patriotic or less Scottish. Please.

I know some, perhaps many will disagree with what I say. I respect your right to do so. But to those that do in turn I say respect my right and those that agree with me when I say with my heart and my head, let's stay together and work hard together to make Scotland an even greater part of Great Britain.

Over and out. Bath cold."

I cannot put the case for a No vote more eloquently, nor with better logic than this. It was written by the Chairman of one of the most internationally famous businesses in Scotland, one who is a Scot and passionate about his country, but believes the long term good of it is better served by staying and making Scotland an even greater part of Britain than by accepting the nationalistic fervour of politicians with a short term interest, who will be long gone when those short term views lie in the dust!

Independent, Scotland would have to move closer to the EC and would still be under the shadow of another ruling body imo .. Where I disagree with you Evil is that should they struggle financially a few decades down the road I do not see what remains of the UK bailing them out as you do. Even today we hear that the NHS in Scotland, over which they have had authority for some time now, is facing a huge budget deficit. After a successful YES vote they will have to manage that themselves.

I think it will be a close thing, but I hope the No vote carries the day

[tonyloaf]

i think what you see on the tv is a set up, its raining all the time

[TheDoode]

'Misplaced patriotism'? That's quite a statement.

[Gez]

Originally Posted by Evil One

If they do leave then England will still keep baling them out, so they won't really have left anyway.

I'm a No voter and proud to be British but when I read arrogant shit like this it makes me want to change my vote

[Gez]

Originally Posted by tonyloaf

i think what you see on the tv is a set up, its raining all the time

Its actually not. Not rained for almost two months

[Gez]

Originally Posted by Sebastian.

Indeed, today is Scotland's annual day of summer.

Good to see that everyone likes to have their wee digs.
You know, Scotland is one of the most beautiful countries you could ever visit and the people and the most welcoming so it would be nice to hear, maybe, something complimentary and positive...... unless you've not visited Scotland, then you can't complain about it.

[Gez]

Originally Posted by CarylB

I agree with you about the politics .. This is the best and most articulate, reasoned and cogent thing I've seen written on the subject, and from a Scot, so perhaps carries more weight than anything I could say, for I am not a Scot so have no final voice in this proposal to dissolve the partnership between my country and Scotland in a blaze of what I see as somewhat misplaced patriotism.

"Well it's nearly here! The Referendum that could lead to Scotland divorcing from the UK. I am not a politician. I am a born and bred Scot living and working here and typing this on his phone from his bath. Sorry about the last bit.

Let's cut through the bullshit, the scaremongering (on both sides) and the dream selling. This is important. For our children's grandchildren and beyond.

All proud Scots want what is best for Scotland, so let's start by agreeing that on this we can agree.

Let's also agree that too many policies for too many years were 'made in London' and did not address Scotland's specific needs.
But we now have a Scottish Parliament and all parties agree that it will get more powers whatever the outcome. I believe that. Mr Salmond and SNP do deserve credit for getting Scotland's voice heard better than ever before in my lifetime. But the fact is that with our own parliament in place we can't keep blaming everything on Westminster. That's out of date. We already have many independent powers, with more to come. To move from a wish to secure these extra powers, to filing for full divorce, cannot be the right thing for Scotland.

We have a population about the size of Yorkshire's but over a much greater land mass to service with roads, small schools, hospitals etc. Our population is ageing faster than UK with a big pensions challenge ahead with a lot of gold plated public sector pensions in there. We have a relatively small tax base and we rely heavily on the public sector for employment and on one commodity.

Oil and gas is a valuable resource. The most optimistic forecast gives us 30 or 40 more years on the dipstick, the blink of an eye in the life of a nation. Yes, it may see today's politicians out, but they will not be around to deal with 'life after oil.' During that time the price may vary greatly. Up or down. We have no control.
Basing a 400 year decision on a 40 year resource of which we do not control the price does not make good sense. Short term-ism on a grand scale. It will take one hell of lot of wind and whisky to replace it.

The form of 'independence' that says 'We would like to share the pound in a formal union and the Bank of England can carry on setting the interest rates' defeats one of the main claimed benefits of independence..controlling one's own future. Interest rates would be set in a country made foreign by a yes vote, a country that no longer had any political or other motive for considering the interests of the 'independent' country north of the border no longer part of UK. This could really hurt us. This is the version of 'independence' that Mr Salmond claims to want for us. I just don't get it.

Talking of banks, if we were to divorce from UK, we would have no lender of last resort. We don't need long memories to sicken ourselves with the mess of the so called 'financial crisis'. I have another set of words for it: greed, lies, arrogance and more greed. But the fact is that our own Scottish institutions had their snouts in the trough along with the best of them and together they nearly brought the country to its knees. IF we had been independent at that time, Scotland Plc would have been bust. The Scottish taxpayer could not have underwritten the debt. We needed the financial strength of the Bank of England and the UK taxpayer to bail out RBS and others. It is a fool that believes that humans really learn from past mistakes... They go right out there and make all their own new ones. Would we like to go to Europe for our bail out if it were needed in the future. Greece is not having fun.

It strikes me as a peculiar form of 'independence' that wants to divorce from England, while at the same time get closer to Brussels. If one of the main complaints is feeling controlled by an unelected government, do we really want to swap London for Brussels? It seems to me that there is a hefty dose of 'anti English' being confused and dressed up as pro-independence. Pre- divorce proceedings are messy, and it saddens me that Scotland is going through its own version, whatever the outcome, with our three other partners in rest of UK.

I am a passionately proud Scot. Born here, schooled here. I've spent my life working here, investing in and promoting Scotland both in UK and abroad, and doing my best to provide good employment here. My children were born here and are schooling here. My point is, don't try and tell me that believing that being in a BETTER version of UK, which we can have, and staying part of the family with our Welsh, Irish and English friends somehow makes me un-patriotic or less Scottish. Please.

I know some, perhaps many will disagree with what I say. I respect your right to do so. But to those that do in turn I say respect my right and those that agree with me when I say with my heart and my head, let's stay together and work hard together to make Scotland an even greater part of Great Britain.

Over and out. Bath cold."

I cannot put the case for a No vote more eloquently, nor with better logic than this. It was written by the Chairman of one of the most internationally famous businesses in Scotland, one who is a Scot and passionate about his country, but believes the long term good of it is better served by staying and making Scotland an even greater part of Britain than by accepting the nationalistic fervour of politicians with a short term interest, who will be long gone when those short term views lie in the dust!

Independent, Scotland would have to move closer to the EC and would still be under the shadow of another ruling body imo .. Where I disagree with you Evil is that should they struggle financially a few decades down the road I do not see what remains of the UK bailing them out as you do. Even today we hear that the NHS in Scotland, over which they have had authority for some time now, is facing a huge budget deficit. After a successful YES vote they will have to manage that themselves.

I think it will be a close thing, but I hope the No vote carries the day

You know, well said Caryl.........that about sums it up

[Adje]

Well, we know the English will never manage it again but... Does this mean it takes another 100 years for someone British to win Wimbledon then?

[JennaG]

Originally Posted by Gez

Good to see that everyone likes to have their wee digs.
You know, Scotland is one of the most beautiful countries you could ever visit and the people and the most welcoming so it would be nice to hear, maybe, something complimentary and positive...... unless you've not visited Scotland, then you can't complain about it.

Well guess what Gez, I'm going to post something complimentary about your country.

I visited Edinburgh in the October of last year and although it rained for a large percentage of the time, that did not take away from the beauty of the places that I saw. I visited several attractions during my stay and encountered excellent customer service (far better than I experience in some cities in England) and everyone I had spoken to were both warm and friendly.

It would be a shame for the United Kingdom to lose Scotland if they voted yes, they have been a part of what has made the UK a great place.

[Sebastian.]

Originally Posted by Gez

Good to see that everyone likes to have their wee digs.
You know, Scotland is one of the most beautiful countries you could ever visit and the people and the most welcoming so it would be nice to hear, maybe, something complimentary and positive...... unless you've not visited Scotland, then you can't complain about it.

Chill out, it's a joke about the weather.

If it came to it I'd take RAF Lossiemouth over RAF Marham.

[Gez]

Originally Posted by JennaG

Well guess what Gez, I'm going to post something complimentary about your country.

I visited Edinburgh in the October of last year and although it rained for a large percentage of the time, that did not take away from the beauty of the places that I saw. I visited several attractions during my stay and encountered excellent customer service (far better than I experience in some cities in England) and everyone I had spoken to were both warm and friendly.

It would be a shame for the United Kingdom to lose Scotland if they voted yes, they have been a part of what has made the UK a great place.

I agree

[CarylB]

Originally Posted by Gez

You know, Scotland is one of the most beautiful countries you could ever visit and the people and the most welcoming so it would be nice to hear, maybe, something complimentary and positive...... unless you've not visited Scotland, then you can't complain about it.

It is indeed a beautiful country, from Lowlands to Highlands, the beaches, the islands, and I have always found the Scots friendly and welcoming .. and though I know the old Edinburgh saying .. "Welcome .. Come in .. You'll have had your tea?" I have never found this to be fair or true

[chairboys]

The four home nations are so inter-linked in all aspects of life that we could now, inexplicably, find the result decided by Mr. Breakov, the Latvian working on the Clyde. I hope her Majesty's 'impartial' words resonant with the electorate. Don't go!