The Fight Club Section

[SueW]

At the index it says that we should say what we like and dislike about MLUKFC. The thing I don't like the most is The Fight Club section. I have never agreed with that section and yesterdays decision to move a discussion there about Meet and Greets has only strengened my opinion.

I think that just the fact that there is a Fight Club section can provoke some people in their hope that a topic they do not like will get moved there. In the discussion yesterday, before it even got remotely heated, people were posting that they expected the thread to get moved to Fight Club as people were criticising Meat Loaf or his management's decision not to hold M&Gs. This kind of thing shouldn't be happening.

This is a discussion board and people shouldn't be afraid to speak out about what they consider is wrong because they are worried that a thread will be moved to Fight Club.

I also think that if you have to have a Fight Club then it shouldn't just be one person's decision to move a thread to that area. Plus, as has happened in the past, only the argumentative posts should be moved there and not (virtually) the whole thread. Two people made the comment to me yesterday that moving that thread to Fight Club smacked of trying to hide it from Meat Loaf and I have to agree with that.

Also the Fight Club section by definition is probably the section of the board that would need the most moderating and yet the only moderator who has the power to lock threads in that area is Diane (who admits herself that she is not online all that much) and Rainer.

Obviously with almost 900 members there are going to be disagreements (especially with strong minded people and events like Meat Loaf going back on his promise without an adequete reason given) but the reason that I was drawn to MLUKFC in the first place is that discussion was allowed (encouraged even) and we didn't have a message saying that the idea of the board was to "build up Meat Loaf" as another board had. However when a predominetly mature discussion is removed (or buried away) in Fight Club then I really wonder if MLUKFC is the place I thought it was.

And when a moderator of the board posts inflammatory remarks like "Feel free to abuse me in Sheffield - bet you won't when we meet!" I serously wonder about the direction that the board is taking.

SueW

[original sin]

Well, I for one agree with Sue here. I have several concerns about the slant and track taken and why.
I question exactly why the topic was moved to fight club and find it interesting that Sue has had comments passed to her that it is an attempt to burry the discussion from Meat, If this was the train of thought I am saddened even more.
I’m afraid I think that to say that talking about Meat’s offer was off topic is splitting hairs. A M&G is a M&G and the whole discussion was about things that had been previously mentioned on THESE forums.
The other thing that saddened yet in a way amuses me is that I have actually asked questions in my posts. An answer to my posts would be nice.
Moving a topic to Fight Club makes people nervous of posting a view and on this matter I find that totally unacceptable.
Why there cannot be a level of healthy discussion without personal attacks being made I have no idea.
There is a world off difference between saying “I don’t agree and this is why” and “ you are immature and negative to have those feelings”.
Other sites accuse mlukfc member of being mindless robots. Do we really want to prove them right.
People have in the past made provocative posts accusing members of treating Meat Loaf like a God, well yesterdays discussion was showing that he is treated like a friend or family member. If a friend of mine told me they were going to do something and later backed out I would be asking them why? What difference should it be now.
Regarding yesterdays discussion I really do think I was able to express myself in a constructive way, having said that I know I did reply in particular to Mike in the same tone and manner that he brought to the discussion, and I have no regrets about this. I found his attitude, tone and style quite objectionable and inflammatory.
An announcement is made on an open thread, hence inviting comment. Anyone can read the thread and see that all people did at first just express there disappointment and say why. Those disappointment fans were then told they were immature and negative, with an attempt made to imply that they shouldn’t have these feelings.
Simple fact THIS site was just as a vessel for an offer, I personally believe that whilst moderators/staff of this site have open communication links,which they obviously do, as Mike received and email, they should be reminding those who can effect this decision or any future one of a promise/offer made using the site THEY operate.

[CarylB]

I agree with virtually everything SueW and Sin have expressed in their well reasoned posts. My only slight reservation is around SueW's final paragraph:

And when a moderator of the board posts inflammatory remarks like "Feel free to abuse me in Sheffield - bet you won't when we meet!" I serously wonder about the direction that the board is taking.

I do agree Sue that this was an entirely inflammatory remark, and do seriously wonder at the direction the board is taking if such a remark is considered acceptable. My only reservation is that there is some confusion about Mike's status on the board. I think R has said he does not have full Moderator status. It does not excuse the remark however, nor does it imo befit a representative of the MLUKFC which he is. And if it was intended as humorous because Mike uses a wheelchair, I think it a misplaced attempt at humour. I treat people without discrimination. I do not treat people who are wheelchair bound as any lesser than those who are not, nor do I excuse them for making provocative or inflammatory comments. And I object to the implication that any of us would set out to be abusive when we met anyone face to face, whether they were in a wheelchair or not. The comment was unnecessary, and sadly in line with a number of his comments yesterday, such as suggesting that people expressing their disappointment and hurt was "having fun"

R posted on the original thread:

I'd recommend that you all stop hijacking this thread immediately.
Discussion is about Meet&Greet and not personal likes and dislikes.
There is a huge topic in Site Feedback where you are very welcome to sort out your personal differences.

I think most would take this to mean that discussion about the M&Gs was fair, but peronal jibes at each other were not, particularly as this followed a series of short posts in response to plymboy's comments addressed to "a certain person (CarylB) ... ". I had already asked him to pm me with any issue he had as this was off-topic and personal. Given that the ensuing discussion which resulted in the topic being removed to Fight Club was purely about people's feelings about the announcement cancelling the M&Gs, I cannot for the life of me see how this was "hikacking" the thread, and yes, it does smack of trying to bury it. Certainly it is likely to discourage many from posting on the topic, given the nature of this lamentable sub-forum and the baggage it carries with it.

It is indeed imo splitting hairs to suggest that these M&Gs are not ones arranged to keep Meat's promise and that any dscussion about this is hijacking a thread. Given that promise, coupled with the fact that there had been no M&Gs offered in the US leg of the tour, it was entirely reasonable for people in this forum to assume that whatever they were called, these M&Gs were Meat's way of honouring that promise as best he could. Indeed, disappointment was expressed that not all the concerts had a M&G and that some who had answered Meat's call would not be able to apply. I did not see anyone suggesting on that thread that this was an inappropriate discussion as these M&Gs were nothing to do with the promise. And frankly if that were the case then I think the UKFC and this forum should have made representation to Meat then.

I agree this move of the thread does smack of trying to bury it. I find it hard to believe that Meat would have the time or inclination to wade his way through all the posts made in all the forums. It certainly smacks of an attempt to limit discussion and debate, as many people do not post in Fight Club because of the nature and stigma of the forum, and I endorse all SueW's reservations and comments about the setting up of the Fight Club forum and the moving of an important thread to it.

[R.]

Mike is not a moderator.
He is simply granted access to non-public areas and the software thinks he's a moderator. It's a software flaw.

I have said at least one time and I'm going to say it again:
There has never been a connection between that promise and these meet & greets. This is just your opinion and it is in fact splitting hairs to suggest that these m&g were arranged for the promise. I had a discussion regarding this as the registering topics were opened for public access and some people were moaning about the 8 people limit and the limited amount of Meet & Greets. That promise wasn't our idea, in fact all of us have been quite suprised to find something like this on a public forum. Furthermore we have never been contacted on how to fulfill that promise. With these points in mind the 1st message talking about that "forgotten promise" was hijacking the thread and directing the discussion into another personal argument. The arguments did not stop - now you can continue in Fight Club.

I have absolutely no problem with the Fight Club. I installed the Fight Club because I simply don't like these I-need-to-have-the-last-word-on-this-disussions. Just for fun, check the posts in Fight Club and do a topten list of messages there. You might be surprised who has the highest postcount. Looks like, if these people wouldn't be around, there would be no need for the Fight Club. Anyway, I have no problem to get rid of the Fight Club. This however would mean that I'd tell my moderators to lock threads as soon as they drift to off-topic. Is it that what you want?

For those who think I'm trying bury this topic:
I don't mind if somebody opens a new topic in "Genereal Messages" dealing exactly (and only) with "The broken promise".
Start one, keep it on topic and discuss. I have absolutely no problem with that.
In fact, I'm wondering why nobody did this as of now.

[Deb]

Just for fun, check the posts in Fight Club and do a topten list of messages there. You might be surprised who has the highest postcount. Looks like, if these people wouldn't be around, there would be no need for the Fight Club.


How do you do that R? I cant work it out lol

[Tim]

Well, i agree partial. I mean... the fightclub is there for discussions about people who start calling names at each other.

But.. this is a forum, you must discuss matters with each other. That is for sure. But, what you see now is that a discussion, when it is getting to hot, will be moved to the fightclub area. That means that there can't be hold any discussion anymore, or only friendly discussions.... That is strange... offcourse you say in a discussion sometimes things you don't want to say, or just can't say... But still, then you can excuse yourself and make piece and go on with the thread.

Still i think that it must be there, as a kind of a fridge... to let people calm down or something like that. And if they are back on earth again, there normal selves again... well.... fill that in for yourself.

Otherwise... fightclub was a great ML movie... so why not on the forum a part.

The Butcher

[original sin]

Mike is not a moderator.
He is simply granted access to non-public areas and the software thinks he's a moderator. It's a software flaw.

OK yet when Tim raised this question in site feedback it was you who finally made this point Mike had posted but had left the impression that he was indeed a moderator

I have said at least one time and I'm going to say it again:

There has never been a connection between that promise and these meet & greets. This is just your opinion and it is in fact splitting hairs to suggest that these m&g were arranged for the promise. I had a discussion regarding this as the registering topics were opened for public access and some people were moaning about the 8 people limit and the limited amount of Meet & Greets. That promise wasn't our idea, in fact all of us have been quite suprised to find something like this on a public forum. Furthermore we have never been contacted on how to fulfill that promise. With these points in mind the 1st message talking about that "forgotten promise" was hijacking the thread and directing the discussion into another personal argument. The arguments did not stop - now you can continue in Fight Club.

I disagree totally – This forum was used for the offer and there should be no difference between any M&G’s offered. I believe this to preserve the integrity of the forum and show support of all users. Would it have really hurt those who have the contact to have asked the questions?

I have absolutely no problem with the Fight Club. I installed the Fight Club because I simply don't like these I-need-to-have-the-last-word-on-this-disussions.

When things are left unanswered, is it not acceptable to seek clarification?
If someone dismisses my thoughts. Do I not have a right to reply?
If someone makes a personal attack on me. Should I not respond ?
When someone is making a blatant slur. Should this not be remedied?

Just for fun, check the posts in Fight Club and do a topten list of messages there. You might be surprised who has the highest postcount. Looks like, if these people wouldn't be around, there would be no need for the Fight Club.

Or as has been suggest earlier, it can be used by some who set out to provoke members just to achieve the goal of getting the thread into fight club.
Many subjects that have ended up there have either had a personal slant or have been discussions on basic acceptable behaviour standards.
The reason some and no doubt myself have high post counts in this section is because we do hold strong views and are not intimidated by the fact that the topic is in fight club. Which I see as, an attempt to name and shame, which puts people off expressing their views.

Anyway, I have no problem to get rid of the Fight Club. This however would mean that I'd tell my moderators to lock threads as soon as they drift to off-topic. Is it that what you want?

Seems to me that we need to reach a mutual understanding of what is acceptable and as I do not agree this thread was off topic, we are at odds to start with.
I believe that topics should only be locked if there are personal inflammatory remarks, obvious misleading information or lies. I think that moderators should call these people out and let normal discussion continue.

For those who think I'm trying bury this topic:
I don't mind if somebody opens a new topic in "Genereal Messages" dealing exactly (and only) with "The broken promise".
Start one, keep it on topic and discuss. I have absolutely no problem with that.
In fact, I'm wondering why nobody did this as of now.

I don’t see why we need to set up a new thread when we had an open discussion, which was imho on topic, if a split was need it could have and should have been left in General Messages. Why do you not transfer it back there?

[Mike Piercy]

see Fight club for more information on the background to all this.

To those who misunderstood my humour on the "feel free to abuse me"
that's what it was. I'm not a moderator I do unpaid work for the fan club but I am also a great Meat Loaf Fan and have been at Meat's concerts since 1982 (I'm an old sod of 56). I tend to try and inject humour but it doesn't always work - won't stop though.

I'm as disappointed as all of you at not meeting Meat but the important thing to me (may not be to you I accept that) is seeing the concert, get the T-Shirt and CD but don't expect the bonus, be happy if it happens but don't get too upset if it doesn't. I was asked by Anne to help probably because I'm early retired and am supposedly able to offer more time, Maureen does all my running for me because I can't and she deserves a mention because of the work she does.

Diane and I have worked as it if was a full time job since the end of September (including weekends) because of the tour and all the new members and other paperwork and constant e-mails. Diane can speak for herself but I'm not prepared to sit by if i think someone is being unreasonable to Meat or me for that matter. Have your say about me, I can take it but don't expect me to sit back and not respond, you don't.

hope that explains a bit more of the situation - see you at Sheffield - won't add anymore just in case!


Mike Meat's self appointed No.1 fan

[Mike Piercy]

Sorry that last posting should have read M&G cancellation discussion

Mike

[original sin]

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

see Fight club for more information on the background to all this.

To those who misunderstood my humour on the "feel free to abuse me"
that's what it was. I'm not a moderator I do unpaid work for the fan club but I am also a great Meat Loaf Fan and have been at Meat's concerts since 1982 (I'm an old sod of 56). I tend to try and inject humour but it doesn't always work - won't stop though.

I'm as disappointed as all of you at not meeting Meat but the important thing to me (may not be to you I accept that) is seeing the concert, get the T-Shirt and CD but don't expect the bonus, be happy if it happens but don't get too upset if it doesn't. I was asked by Anne to help probably because I'm early retired and am supposedly able to offer more time, Maureen does all my running for me because I can't and she deserves a mention because of the work she does.

Diane and I have worked as it if was a full time job since the end of September (including weekends) because of the tour and all the new members and other paperwork and constant e-mails. Diane can speak for herself but I'm not prepared to sit by if i think someone is being unreasonable to Meat or me for that matter. Have your say about me, I can take it but don't expect me to sit back and not respond, you don't.

hope that explains a bit more of the situation - see you at Sheffield - won't add anymore just in case!

Mike Meat's self appointed No.1 fan

Feel free to abuse me in Sheffield - bet you won't when we meet! You'll know why if we do.

Mike

This was not humour - if the last 6 words had been left off it could just have past for it, but no sorry not humourous.

What you singularily fail to reailse is that we are all quite happy with going to our concerts to, we all work for the man in our own way. We were asking questions, which you dismissed as negativity.
You implied your own toughts as to health matters being the reasons behind the decision. When you are saying that you have have contact from management and then go on to say about health ametter etc. this needs to be clarified.
Contary to popular beielf i do not think Meat is a God and I don't see why we should not expect a reasonable explanation from either him or his management company. And if you have the email adresses i don't think it unreasonable to ask you to use that to make this on behalf of fans and members.

[R.]

Originally Posted by original sin

I disagree totally – This forum was used for the offer and there should be no difference between any M&G’s offered. I believe this to preserve the integrity of the forum and show support of all users. Would it have really hurt those who have the contact to have asked the questions?

You can disagree as much as you like. I'm telling you the facts, that's all.

Originally Posted by original sin

When things are left unanswered, is it not acceptable to seek clarification?
If someone dismisses my thoughts. Do I not have a right to reply?
If someone makes a personal attack on me. Should I not respond ?
When someone is making a blatant slur. Should this not be remedied?

You could also ask "Does the pope wear silly hats?"
You know exactly what I'm talking about. If not, I suggest that you read the verbal abuse thread very carefully, especially the middle part.

Originally Posted by original sin

Or as has been suggest earlier, it can be used by some who set out to provoke members just to achieve the goal of getting the thread into fight club.
Many subjects that have ended up there have either had a personal slant or have been discussions on basic acceptable behaviour standards.
The reason some and no doubt myself have high post counts in this section is because we do hold strong views and are not intimidated by the fact that the topic is in fight club. Which I see as, an attempt to name and shame, which puts people off expressing their views.

That's your view of the Fight Club. I have a different one. Do you have a problem with that?
Could it be that the reason for your high postcount there is that you simply cannot say "You're right. I was wrong"?. Think about it, carefully.

Originally Posted by original sin

I don’t see why we need to set up a new thread when we had an open discussion, which was imho on topic, if a split was need it could have and should have been left in General Messages. Why do you not transfer it back there?

The thread will remain in Fight Club. If you want to discuss the broken promise in General Messages, post a new topic. That's my final word on this.

[Tim]

I see this thread also end in fight club!

[original sin]

R. we have had many conversations as things have unfurled on these boards and even when I have disagreed I have just let you know my feelings and left things in your hands and accepted your decisions. I read – I think in the fight club thread that you took the comments as a criticism of yourself. This is not the case, you know that we are a bunch of people with hopes, thoughts and feelings and this is where we get together to discuss our common bond.
This could have been avoided at the very start if the announcement had been placed as such in a locked announcement thread as they usually are.
It would not have developed if disappointment was accepted at face value, rather than dismissed as negativity with veiled references being made to Meat’s.

1/ I believe I am also telling facts. It is fact that the discussion was about M&G’s and it is fact that Meat made an offer on THIS site.

2/ And I am sure you know exactly what I am talking about – I am making the same reference to basic rights that so many others have laid claim to.

3/ I am quite happy to accept we differ in our views and stated that I am happy to agree to disagree.
I think you’ll find that my posts in the thread you refer to are on the line that we all come at something from different directions and will not necessarily read the same thing in any given situation. Which seems to be a proven point in this discussion.
I don’t consider I post (apart from Off Topic Section) for the sake of it. I post my view/ or take and will only return if and when a new point is raised, if someone has picked up and questioned something I have said or a direct response is needed.
So on that basis I consider that I do indeed think carefully.
Ok yes on the human side I’ll post on whim, or in like, but who doesn’t.
If I am presented with something that would make me change my view I would have not problem with saying, “OK you are right, or from that view point I can agree”
However if this does not happen why should I say someone is right. I will say that’s your take and not mine.


Tim - I don't think this is in Fight Club yet

[Gez]

I was gonna add a my wee bit..............until I discovered my BUPA cover was cancelled

[original sin]

Originally Posted by Gerry

I was gonna add a my wee bit..............until I discovered my BUPA cover was cancelled

Ach Gerry! go for! I can arrange care for you

Seriously - I do hope you are joking and not concerned about being able to post your views.

[Gez]

Does this care include pre and post operative care Miss Sin

It's just that I am a slow healer and will be in bed for a long time