The true acid test

[original sin]

I would like you to consider voting on this poll and remember that you don’t need to also post to say how you are voting it can be totally anonymous.
I fully understand the logic behind the other poll set up here. However I think the crux of the matter is:-
1/ Do we want a place were we can gather and discuss Meat Loaf and related stuff, in a friendly, supportive and secure atmosphere, where people consider the effect and potential hurt of their views?

Or

2/ Are we happy that anyone can express an “opinion” regardless of the adjectives used, without thought or consideration, for Meat and his other fans?

Now before you vote – let me make one thing clear I am not saying that views and opinions should not be expressed. I am saying think about Meat, what he has given what he stands for and all his efforts and I am saying think about those that most likely will not have had the same experience as you.

For example – someone didn’t like a show’s opening – fine say “ personally I didn’t like the opening it did nothing for me”
Is it really necessary to say, “How can someone who has been in the music business for 26 years not know how to open a show”
So someone didn’t like what he or she heard but is it really necessary to say “the tuneless wailings of that poor man stumbling about on the stage.”
Personally I think he deserves better from us - and unless we agree with such staements we should not stand by.

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Sin wrote:

Now before you vote – let me make one thing clear I am not saying that views and opinions should not be expressed. I am saying think about Meat, what he has given what he stands for and all his efforts and I am saying think about those that most likely will not have had the same experience as you.

For example – someone didn’t like a show’s opening – fine say “ personally I didn’t like the opening it did nothing for me”
Is it really necessary to say, “How can someone who has been in the music business for 26 years not know how to open a show”
So someone didn’t like what he or she heard but is it really necessary to say “the tuneless wailings of that poor man stumbling about on the stage.”
Personally I think he deserves better from us - and unless we agree with such staements we should not stand by.

Lets break this down into sections.

Firstly - views and opinions should be encouraged, BUT, as Sin said - THINK about what and how you express it. Give everyone RESPECT - that includes Meat. What do they say "Do unto others etc ........."
If you treat people well, they will do the same.

Secondly - Meat deserves the utmost respect and admiration for what he has provided his fans over the years.

We all know he has not been 100%, but credit where credit's due - he gave it his best at the time (in my opinion) I am not going down that road here.

Hope this does not offend anyone - it is a personal view

[Winston]

I hear what your saying Sin.......

BUT

Is this really necessary?

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

it wasn't good enough for you , you prick

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

IF you read this wise guy You are and Ugly Ugly Human Being if I can even call you that, IT MUST BE TUFF LIVING IN YOUR SKIN!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

Screw HIM and the horse he rode in on

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

you don't like me fine. So be it. I don't like you much either.

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Winston

I'm with you on this one - if Meat is seen to get away with it - others will and have followed.

Insults - to or from anyone should not be tolerated

I've said it before - constructive critisism - yes
insults - no

"my opinion"

[original sin]

Ahh but you see the way I look at it is what came first the chicken or the egg - Meat never used to post in this manner - then attacks insults and swipes were apparently seen to be acceptable - anyone paasing comment or not wanting to be associated with such comments has been put down - so what exactly should Meat have done? each and every action he takes is critisised.

It started last spring with slurrs on his voice, it went on with comments about the "just making money tour" it included comments about "crappy set lists"

Then we get reviews that include things like

Right from the first line I flinched at how badly out of tune and out of time he actually was

How can someone who has been in the music business for 26 years not know how to open a show?

Still not having found anything to clap for, I then had to put up with another 10 minute song/rant

What followed was cringeworthingly bad

Following an awful rendition

An illustration of how BAD this show was?

the tuneless wailings of that poor man stumbling about on stage.

Right from the first line I flinched at how badly out of tune and out of time he actually was

so are you really surprised that when such comments are supported by the byline of free speach and encouraged to air their views whatever - that Meat reacts - because I'm sure as heck not surprised one bit.

We had an artist sharing with us his news, thoughts and views, a degree of acceptance has been given to freedom of speach with the no matter what tag and thats the result.

sowing and reaping again
[/quote]

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Sin

Fair comment, but I can only say on what I have seen. I only joined in November 2003, so have not seen any of Meat's early posts.

Suppose I should take time out to read them and see the difference

[Winston]

i don't accept that sin.....his outbursts are uncalled for. and your asking people here to give him the respect he deserves....your quoting members here on what they said about him/his shows (oh and thanks for mentioning the crappy set lists...i still stand by that)...but you didn't bother to show any of his insults/outbursts. why is that sin????

[original sin]

Everything is on the boards for all to see and form an opinion - mine is things happened were condoned by acceptance and Meat's posting changed - cause and effect - does not change the question as to want environment we want here

[Winston]

so you don't like comments like this.....

Right from the first line I flinched at how badly out of tune and out of time he actually was

but ya fall over yourself to praise meat for coming out with this

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

it wasn't good enough for you , you prick

how can you possibly justify that?????

[Sapphire Lady]

Originally Posted by Winston

how can you possibly justify that?????

Meat posted an apology to Michael for making this comment and Michael accepted that apology. Surely that makes it water under the bridge now.

I can't see any point in dredging up old quotes. I would have thought the point of this poll is to vote on how we want to go forward. We can't change what's happened in the past.

[Winston]

I quoted Meat more than once in my original post. Water under the bridge....thats between Meat and Michael.....We are not going to get anywhere on this board if Meat's outbursts are ignored. I can see the point in bringing up old quotes because I feel these outbursts are the cause of the fighting amongst each other.
People are actually justifying his insults twoards other members....and that it not right. He is well able to post calmly...he's done it before.

[original sin]

Originally Posted by Sapphire Lady

Meat posted an apology to Michael for making this comment and Michael accepted that apology. Surely that makes it water under the bridge now.

I can't see any point in dredging up old quotes. I would have thought the point of this poll is to vote on how we want to go forward. We can't change what's happened in the past.

yes Sapphire lady Meat did apologise, if we are going to quote him this is what he said, so actually I can see exactly where Winston is coming from - IMO it's a crying shame we didn't listen to Meat a long time ago

Michael

My apologies to you , I took it out my angry on you when I shouldn't have,( you were right listen agained to the CD again missing some power from some of the other shows it wasn't bad but not perfect ) SO I AM VERY SORRY.

What made me leave was Winston and her lies and innuendos, the show never changing!!!! do you have any Idea how times the show changed since JUly. But the real Offense Was the use of the word half hearted. Yes Open Forum, but not sit in my my room and just read words and make up what I want, THis was not open forum this was hate mail!!!!
THe title says Meat Loaf UK fan Club , Not the Winston Hate Mail Forum.
op-ion yes, but putdowns, Lies and just plan being angry over what I don't know I will not tolerate. When I wrote about the new web site It wasn't about money!!! come on!! I don't need you money I need your Loyality , If you think the show sucks write, if don't like a song write, just don't tell me I give Half Hearted Performances. I have not been this mad at anything like this for over 20 years.

Just wanted to clarify


Meat

[Deb]

Firstly. I dont think its as cut and dried as the two options.

Secondly. The quotes used to defend Meat are not the only ones.

http://www.mlukfc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2442 (trier review)

I had already decided to post this before I saw your reply Lynne, and while I agree it was very good of Meat to post an apology, the facts are meat still lost it unjustified. Which a lot are saying he doesnt do, and that he is justified in ranting because people are pushing him to it. Also i'm trying to show that not only is it Meats rants, but peoples responses to them, lots said in that thread that meat was basically justified and that Micheal had provoked him. I do not agree with that for one single minute, never have and never will.

i know bringing up old quotes wont help (or maybe these will, in opening up peoples eyes that missed that thread, to the fact that Meat does rant and isnt always justified) And to me the way forward is to all see all sides of it. Not just Meat is right full stop.

I really am sorry for doing this, but i cant just give up here, I really feel today like saying thats it, bye. This is the last point I feel strongly about. Sharon your reply actually gave me some hope in even those that do go more to the Devote Meat side if you know what I mean ( I do anyway lol)
to actually hear you say you dont agree with meat doing this. And when you go read all the posts dont forget this one i linked to.

Saying this does not put me in the anything goes catagory either. And if there really is only 2 catagorys, then Im not part of either and I dont want to be. I will quite willingly leave the forum if this is going to be the case here. I can not go on feeling how I have done lately. Even writing this I have redone it god knows how many times.

I see no reason why any of us cant say we didnt enjoy one show as much as the last, or that meats voice wasnt as good the night before as the next. And if it wasnt picked up on as soon as someone said anything slightly neg, those that do have neg opinions would then go on in another thread to voice how good they though something else was. Instead of going over and over this same topic in a million different varieties.

I'm not saying that for any of you to adore meat 100% is wrong, I respect yuor right. (Yes there are a few that do get under my skin but i'm sure everyone feels like that about some, I'm sure even me lol.) All I ask is that those of us who dont worship get given some slack as well.

Beleive me Micheal, weishemm or who ever else has said it are not the only people I have ever heard voice how they feel
. I wont name names, but at shows on the tour lots had different opinions every night, doesnt mean they dont feel the same about Meat as they did before, just they are not deaf or Blind or dumb for that matter. Saying this is not meant to hurt meat in anyway. I am just trying to make at least one person see that not everyone who doesnt see everything as rosey is slagging meat, far from it

[Deb]

Didnt see you post before I wrote that either sin. I really think the whole thread would be much better being read that just Meats apology. Not just becasue Meat ranted for no reason, but becasue of the way a lot of the fans basically said, dont listen to him meat he's bad. THIS is the point i'm trying to make here, amongst others.

Deb

[Deb]

In Meats apology he wrote: If you think the show sucks write

Now isnt this what a lot of yuo are saying we cant do?

[Winston]

Meat says this

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

If you think the show sucks write

and when people did write that they didn't like the show they got this..

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

it wasn't good enough for you , you prick

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

IF you read this wise guy You are and Ugly Ugly Human Being if I can even call you that, IT MUST BE TUFF LIVING IN YOUR SKIN!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

Screw HIM and the horse he rode in on

Originally Posted by Fire Ball

you don't like me fine. So be it. I don't like you much either.

[DIZZY DRUMMER]

Isn't this thread supposed to be about how we want the forum to be !!!!!!!!!!

[Mike Piercy]

Like everything else it started out that way and is now being used to dredge up old postings.

mike

[Deb]

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

Like everything else it started out that way and is now being used to dredge up old postings.

mike

Well not in my case its not. I dont get joy out of dredging up Micheals post beleive me, infact it was something i really didnt want to do. But it has some very valid points to a lot of things. is it ok to dredge up meat is wonderful posts though?

[Winston]

well i'd like this forum to be a place where i can post what i really think of meat's work without getting rubbish shoved down my throat for being disrespectul towards him and also without meat getting on here and calling me names.
Posts should be worded in a way that it's not hurtful etc....but i would expect meat to also count to 1000 before he types.

FYI Mike...It was Sin who originally brought up old quotes on her post.

[Mike Piercy]

I thought this topic was about a clear voting principle.

My post and the one that preceded it was about perpetuating old arguments by posting past quotes which have been resolved.

My views on Meat are well known and I'm not prepared to be attacked for them. Dredging up old comments is absolutely futile, does the website no good, and encourages arguments, that's all I was truying to say.

mike

[Deb]

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

I thought this topic was about a clear voting principle.

My post and the one that preceded it was about perpetuating old arguments by posting past quotes which have been resolved.

My views on Meat are well known and I'm not prepared to be attacked for them. Dredging up old comments is absolutely futile, does the website no good, and encourages arguments, that's all I was truying to say.

mike

Who's attacking you? Me? So if we cant use facts to try to resolve a problem that is very obviously there, how else are we going to solve it? Not many are listening to peoples views in any other way. And In My Opinion what encourages arguments and misunderstandings, is people keep being told they cant have an opinion. Like it or not this is whats happening. I dont just mean the weishemm type stuff or the Micheal stuff. Just in general it seems things are trying to be brushed under the carpet, in the hope they'll go away, but I really believe the feeling here has gone way beyond that being possible. And thats all I keep trying to say

[Winston]

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

I thought this topic was about a clear voting principle.

My post and the one that preceded it was about perpetuating old arguments by posting past quotes which have been resolved.

My views on Meat are well known and I'm not prepared to be attacked for them. Dredging up old comments is absolutely futile, does the website no good, and encourages arguments, that's all I was truying to say.

mike

Past quotes from Meat have not been resolved....Maybe Michael is willing to forgive and forget..... but I don't know about Weissheim or anyone else whos been at the end of his rants...I haven't forgotten his rants at me...

[Mike Piercy]

...........and all I keep trying to say is that because freedom of speech is so freely used on this forum it has not always been exercised with responsibility.

I recognise I'm from a different era, I don't/can't/won't/shouldn't need to accept the appalling type of comments sometimes made on here. I'm not getting at you Deb but I've got an opinion as well and clearly it's not as liberal as yours, I'm not a moderator so I'll feel free to put my point of view as a fan like the rest do.

Sin's initial posting posed two questions to vote on, at the moment there is an overwhelming view for one of them, that is what the topic is about. it should stay on topic.

[Winston]

Originally Posted by Mike Piercy

...........and all I keep trying to say is that because freedom of speech is so freely used on this forum it has not always been exercised with responsibility.

freedom of speech has not been excercised with responsibility by members and by Meat......we're agreed on that are we Mike?